Season 46 rankings: Making the final cut.

[Talaysen]

Well, I'd been operating under the assumption that Aigis could and should be ranked as The Journey only.  Probably ought to note that though.

For some people (like myself), that doesn't matter anyways.  I vote on FE10 forms afterall.  However, I haven't played The Answer yet, though, that reminds me, I should do that this week.  Now's the best time to do it if any.  I'm already like halfway through or something.

Going to change to abstain on Aigis regardless though.

[Chisa]

Persona 3:
Played - Yes
Rank - Yes
Characters - No Minato, no Metis, yes NA, yes other PCs/Strega.

Cloud of Darkness:
Played - Yes
Rank - Yes.  I don't think the vote split is that huge an ìssue, and I can't see any other valid reason not to.

[SageAcrin]

Persona 3:

No, though I have a copy.

Yes, as a game.

No to Minato. No to any bosses-historically, Persona bosses have done less than stellarly, and the most standout boss from what I've heard people talk in general is a table. (I might be talked into this.) No to any FES-only stuff. No to Aigis, who I gather has a FES split. (Not that I suspect the last will matter as a vote.) Yes to everyone else.

Yeah, that's a lot of Nos, but eh. Better safe than sorry, I want to be able to say I told you so. <_< >_>

FF3 FW Cloud of Darkness:

Yes, both versions.

Yes.

Ehhhh, worst that can happen is a weird votesplit between Godlike and...Godlike of really scrubby calibur, and those are less unrankable and annoying and more entertaining. We need more unpredictability in the DL(without stupid robberies). <_< Recent, finally has art, etc. Shiny.

[Lance]

Persona 3
1. No
2. Yes


Cloud of Darkness
1. Yes
2. Yes

[Yakumo]

Persona 3:
Yes
Yes
Yes to all PCs except Minato and Metis(no to them, to be clear), yes to Strega, no to Nyx Avatar.  I'm unsure on Aigis, doesn't help that I only played the beginning of the answer since I haven't really been in the mood for forced hard mode SMT.  Uh, I'll say yes for now, and ask if it's possible to rank this as Persona 3: The Journey officially?  That would avoid most of the headaches.  There's still people that'll vote on the Answer form, but there's people who vote on Optional Superboss Mint and such, so whatever.

CoD
Played, didn't finish.
Abstain
Don't know enough about the character to make an informed decision here, though I would like to see people discuss the votesplit more if it's as bad as OK claims, or if not to just smack him if he deserves it, would be good for the rest of us to know. <_<

[DomaDragoon]

P3
1. No, but (and say it all together now, you know it's coming) I own it and will play it eventually.
2. Yes
3. I'm assuming there are no interp issues among the PCs that have been floated, but I'm not convinced that there's going to be a huge outside-of-group draw. But come on, it's me. Since when has votedraw been an issue for me ranking anything? (Rank FFMQ!)

CoD
1. Yes, but FF3NES only. Am playing 3DS.
2. Yes
3. Why not?

[Dark Holy Elf]

Okay.

*smacks OK* Cloud of Darkness' votesplit is not that bad.

I'm not sure exactly where the NES form falls. High 3HKO damage, but the durability is excellent (only about 1.6 raw PCHP, but above average defence + takes a third off of magic + insane evade + resisting all elements). Way too much durability-related spoiling for Middle, definitely belongs in Heavy but could beat some Godlikes. Also not worried at all about casual respect because the NES version is generally regarded a bitch in-game. She's pretty similar to Zeromus, come to think of it, another FF final boss with objectively underwhelming offence who uses it pretty well in-game and tends to do fine for respect as a result.

Most voters are, I think, DS (simply because most players of the NES version picked up the DS version as well, and the DS version also attracted new, non-emulation players). For them, she's Godlike without much question, enough that I have no doubts she'll end up ranked there. So suffice to say, I think we'll have a case of a Godlike boss whom a few people see as only Heavy. Which is... not at all unusual for a Godlike boss. (Downgrade, Dhoulmagus. Downgrade, Lamington. Downgrade, Jecht. Downgrade... okay I've made my point.)

(Also, on a *punt OK* note, since really, such puntings are all the rage: Minato pretty clearly has more votesplit than Cloud, and you're supporting him. VP2 Lezard has pretty much the most votesplit of any character ranked in recent memory, and you supported him. C'mon, show some consistency.)


EDIT: And while someone like Meeple who pays more attention to FF3 plot than me can rant on this more, Cloud of Darkness is mentioned long before Necron and has substantially more plot. I'm also certain she has more lines than any other FF3 villain (which is not impressive, but hey <_<). The fact that she was picked for Dissidia rather than Xande (unlike Kuja who got in over Necron) pretty much shows that she's the most recognisable face of the villain cast.

[Meeplelard]

Cloud of Darkness? She's...not a Necron, no.

She's more like Beatrice, except executed so much worse (Shock; NES plot and writing vs. Early PS2 plot and writing!)

If you actually think about Xande's goals and what he does...something definitely doesn't make any sense.  Why would he want to destroy everything when he already DID stop time, thereby, gotten his pseudo-immortality?  When you think about it...doesn't make sense.  Cloud of Darkness being another behind the scenes figure manipulating Xande suddenly explains everything.

She even has back story, being the same threat that existed 1000 years prior with the Flood of Light (despite her name, she's *NOT* a being of Darkness, but a being of the Void; the Dark Warriors state they fought her off 1000 years prior, and say that neither Light nor Darkness can beat her, but only both combined)

And...there's a grand total of one villain in FF3 who has more lines than Cloud of Darkness and that's Gutsco...who thinking on it, is a better rank that Xande anyway.  More scenes, and his fight is so much more memorable, at least in the Salamander Form.

But yeah, Cloud of Darkness is clearly much bigger than Necron, Necron being an arbitrary boss pulled out of their ass only so Kuja's plot could make sense (ie how he reforms and saves your team.)  Cloud of Darkness has enough plot, for all that you learn 90% of it in the final dungeon alone, its still there.

Edit: Oh, the Dissidia thing is relevant for two reasons. One is the Art aspect, which was basically the one thing keeping her from being ranked; now taht she has decent usable art, there's nothing holding her back, objectively, from a ranking.
It also proved that people DO remember her, since why would they put a forgettable nobody like her into a fanservice game commemorating 20 years of Final Fantasy?  I'm sure if people gave a shit about Xande, they'd have chosen him over her...but they don't, yet CoD does get respect as one of the best final bosses in the series...in BOTH versions.

[SnowFire]

Persona 3: No, Yes but No to the usual suspects.  Rank Aigis as specifically the Journey if at all.

FF3: Yes, Yes.

Slightly off topic, but Re: Meeplelard's CoD FF3 plot hype...  yes, Cloud of Darkness deserves credit for Xande's actions during the course of the game as opposed to his pre-history, just like Ultimecia gets credits for possessed Edea's actions (which some people miss when complaining neither does anything).  Unfortunately by "credit" I mean "blame" here, since Xande being a generic world-destroyer-with-vast-buckets-o'-darkness is lame.  Basically they changed an independent villain with an interesting agenda into a generic flunky "rargh" who does bad things, and explained it by saying he got corrupted by the CoD's darkness.

Xande, despite his lack of lines, is still the most interesting villain in FF3, even if all his development is done by others and in terms of relating his past actions.  Cloud of Darkness is, however, the most relevant villain and the "big" one, even if she was shoving out a better choice.

[Clear Tranquil]

Persona 3-

1) Yes

2) Yes

Rank- Mitsuru, Akihiho, Koromaru, Ken, Yukari, Junpei, Shinjiro, Aegis, Jin, Chidori, Takaya

DNR- Minato

Abstain- Nyx Avatar - Till I puzzle out whether or not there is a way to outfox Moonless Gown hax~

Final Fantasy 3 Forgotten Warrior: Cloud of Darkness

1) No

2) No


RANK FUUKA!!!

[DjinnAndTonic]

Actually... I -am- a little curious how people feel about a Fuuka joke rank... I mean... she -does- have stats!

-Djinn

[hinode]

I feel like subjecting everyone who suggests it to a Hydlide/Dragon Slayer/Hoshigami marathon.  While forcibly bound to Shion Uzuki.

[Tide]

Persona 3
Played it
Rank all PCs except for Minato (duh). Abstain on Strega bosses and Metis (FW her is probably a better idea any how at a later date). A Will Smith Hell No to Nyx.

[Meeplelard]

What is this "interesting agenda" Xande has?

To become immortal cause he's going to die? You mean something he did...before the game began? You mean something can pretty much half the DBZ villains try for of whom rarely get hype by anyone serious attempt too?  I'm really not seeing it.  At least Cloud of Darkness had this extra angle of "She's not a being of Light or Darkness, therefor, you can't beat her with either alone." So few games, even now a days, let alone when FF3 was made, actually come out and say "The Power of Darkness is good to you know!"

Regarding Xande's supposed development? Its based off two lines in the entire game; TWO FREAKING LINES.  They are:

Doga: Unei was given a dream world, I was given knowledge and magic, and Xande was given the gift of life as a human!

Unei: Xande's gift of mortality was the greatest of the three, but he couldn't understand this.

That's pretty much all we learn about Xande's back story from what I recall.  The whole "He went insane and wanted to stop time!" is analysis that the game doesn't tell you about, from what I honestly remember playing the game numerous times.

You know what? Xande is basically a really horribly done Kuja in the grand scheme of things.  Kuja worked cause a villain like that kind of needs presence to work.  You kind of need to meet a character to fully grasp who they are, their own agendas, and see their breaking point in action.  Kuja worked cause for 90% of the game he's this high class, aristocratic, evil bastard...then he learns a simple fact that he's going to die and suddenly he breaks down and we see what kind of person he REALLY is (ie equivalent to a naive child, DESPITE how he was acting before.)  Xande being a mere "sit on throne twiddling thumbs, throwing minions at everyone" completely fails to make any sort of use of this breaking point character.
For reference, Sephiroth too is a failure in this regard; he too had a breaking point but...we see so little about him, and what made him go insane felt so forced (where as Garland tossed hints at us that Kuja always had this massive inferiority complex, and we've seen he can get irrational when he's angry, so it was in character), Sephiroth...it says something that his insanity session was so...abrupt, that even Crisis Core with its attempt to build a character out of sane Sephiroth and fill in some holes in FF7's plot STILL failed to make the insanity session make sense (Crisis Core in general avoided Retcons)

...if I'm derailing the topic, then yeah, I can see making a whole new one.  But I just had to get this off my chest, I apologize.

[AAA]

Persona 3:

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. PCs, Strega. No to anything else.

CoD:
1. Yes
2. Yes

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'll split the topic if Snowfire/anyone else wants to respond. (Just post your full response here if you do.)

[Excal]

P3:

1. No

2. N/A

3. Blah


CoD:

1. Yes, to both

2. Yes

3. See Meeple

[Andemon]

P3:
1) Yes
2) Yes

DNR: Minato
Rank: PCs except ^, Strega
Abstain: NA


FF3FW:CoD
1) Partially
2) Yes

[OblivionKnight]

The votesplit is partially how I see her, to be fair (High Middle/Low Heavy vs. what looks to be a decent Godlike fro NES/DS form).  I'm mostly trying to present a case for not ranking, her, though I think the reservations are there.  It might be as bad as you say for people with normal views, I will admit.  So a mid Heavy to Low Godlike isn't as bad as the other way.  There is going to be votesplit on her like with other people.  Randomly, what is her evade/elemental resistance?  How high is the defense and magic (you said 1/3 magic, so that's ok).  Not like you use this stuff in the NES version (Bahamut and shuriken nukings ahoy, or Onion Knight attacks).  That probably does push the NES form up to a Heavy version.  Still has weakish durability.

In terms of plot...I odn't remember any of that from FF3 NES <_<  Except for the Dorga and Unne lines Meeple posted.  I had remembered it as Xande summon a Cloud to Destroy the world because he was pissed off at his rewards, and the Cloud going crazy after he was killed.  Apparently, FF3 plot is not strong with me.  I didn't remember it being talked about until after killing/fighting Xande.
 
Consistency?  You know I'm big on plot importance being important for ranking, as well as characterness.  Minato is the main character of the game and has *spoilers* going for him as well.  He's also, indirectly, the reason The Answer exists (actually, more directly than indirect, but *spoilers*).  Votesplit combat-wise is Godlike vs. Godlike (depending on if you see him with initiative...I don't know many people do, I don't think I do myself).  He's either unbeatable Godlike that way (people won't rank him), or a solid Godlike that dies if you kill him first.  So his only ranking here is Godlike.  Lezard already had votesplit before VP2, and is still important to the plot.  Would definitely be odd not to rank him.  Cloud of Darkness is the final boss, but she is a bit less plot exposured-y than those two. 

Combat-wise, I agree, she's a better rank since there's less votesplit in that area than Lezard (Minato...).  As I said, she's not a bad rank in terms of vote-draw/demand.  She's great for that.  Just she's boring as sin (NES form, again), and it feels weird to rank just one boss when there are other rankable bosses (Xande, Dorga, Unne).  I understand she was the only one chosen for FWness, and people are bigger on her, so that's the group view and fine with me.  *shrugs*  An alternatve view.

DNR was probably a bit too harsh from what I was trying to get across - abstain more what I was thinking.  Don't know why I didn't use that earlier.  As I said, not a bad rank, but there are other thoughts I'm concerned with. 

[OblivionKnight]

As for Aigis votesplit:

She's Minato with better HP, worse SP, and no fusions, with the same variety as he has in Fes (which...is just a lot more stuff, mostly).  Damage goes down a bit (5-10% maybe).  She's otherwise pretty similar.  The difference is her section is...rougher, since you don't have the compendium

[superaielman]

So she just has big time form split based on the game?

[074]

Persona 3

Played it.

Rank it.

Characters: Rank Junpei, Yukari, Akihiko, Mitsuru, Aigis(Journey form only), Ken, Shinjiro, Koromaru, Chidori, Jin, Takaya
DNR Minato, Metis, Nyx Avatar(who can play around in NR Godlike for all I care)

FF3--Cloud of Darkness

Haven't played either iteration.  Abstaining.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Persona 3

1. No.
2. Yes.

Rank Koromaru, Junpei, Akihiko, Mitsuru, Shinjiro, Yukari and Ken. No to everybody else (Aigis, Minato, Metis, Nyx, Strega bosses). Minato is Bluelike, which makes him an auto-no. Aigis suffers from horrible votesplit of doom, and if the interpretations on a dueller can range into a two-division rift, I'd rather have him/her unranked (and, for the record, Lezard would certainly qualify to me, but this isn't a discussion for this topic and almost two years too late), Metis would be trusting in FES, which is even shakier than P3 in my eyes. As for the bosses, Sage makes a good point about SMT bosses in the DL, and while DDS sorta builds an exception in that front, I'd rather not get trigger-happy with a game I'm not entirely comfortable with in the DL. Nyx hype can die - from the sounds of it, she's Nega Filgaia with Moonless Gown, and if Nega Filgaia, who -lacks- the Moonless Gown stupid, is a Bluelike as is, Nyx can only be worse.


Final Fantasy 3 Forgotten Warrior: Cloud of Darkness

1. Yes.
2. Yes.

[Pyro]

Persona 3:

1. Yes.
2. Yes.

Rank... Junpei, Akihiko, Mitsuru, Yukari, Ken, Koromaru, Aigis, Chidori, Shinji... abstain on everything else. I'm not opposed to the two other Strega bosses but they are a bit of a headache to rank. Chidori is easy to rank! Get thee to Light.

Final Fantasy 3 Forgotten Warrior: Cloud of Darkness

1. No.
2. Abstain. I'd rather just not think about this. On the one hand its apparently fairly well played, on the other its really *really* old and the re-release is on the DS, which many may not own. Looks like she's getting in anyway and thats fine too.

[Sir Donald 3.2]

As far as FF3(DS) Plot is concerned, from what I gathered from in-dungeon convo with Unei, Xande was frozen in time along with the rest of the lower world.  So, the scheme to stop time didn't work from his perspective.  So either he's trying it again (insane) or he's now set on destroying/conquering the world.  Insane either way.  Said in-game convo lends heavy credence to the CoD=Mastermind theory, which gives her plot cred.

Still, the "Does joo count teh tentaklez???///" issue needs to be considered, as about 90% of CoD's skill set comes from those appendages per the stats topic.  At least it wouldn't DQ her if you don't, but that would likely take a ranking hit.  Another source of possible interpret issues is whether or not the Dark Warriors' Blast has any in-battle scaling effect on her and, if so, how much?  (Then again, if the latter makes her vunerbale, then we treat her like Zeromus.  If she can die without it, it's technically unnecessary, though I can see how casuals could discount her along that line.)

That having been said, total abstain on both ballot initiatives.  Maybe I'll finally get off my duff and get into Eureka once I get decent BB levels on Luneth and Ingus (What is "HP Spam?")

BTW, OK:  PCs to Rank?  Joo Kiddin Mii???!!!11

Item 1:  PC Stats are tied to their Jobs!  The only exception is HP, and that's dependent on Vitality at each individual level.
Item 2:  FF5 has the same problem as above, but at least their PCs have a slight(0<x<1%) stat difference.  From what I've seen, FF3 PCs don't even have that!
Item 3:  FF5 PCs have a tenuous claim to the Elemental Crystals for their jobs.  And, actually, I can make a similar case for FF3 based on the supposed affinities of the characters that would have FE-Support grades>C with each respective PC (Luneth = Aria = Water, Arc = Alus = Earth, Refia = Desch = Fire, Ingus = Sarah = Wind).  But another way would match the attributes assigned by the Wizards with their FF5 Counterparts.  And in that case, only Ingus would match (Wind).  Luneth would be Fire in that case and Arc Water, which would leave Refia with Earth.
Other than that, the only forms the PCs can lend a shred of claim to come from the Intro Movie (Warrior, Black Mage, White Mage, Red Mage).  (Maybe this is what OK is going for...)  Fine for the First Half, but what about later Jobs?  Or do we have them stay in Movie-Playthrough?
Ingus has a little better claim to Red Mage, as Sasune hypes its Red Mages.  Fine!  Red Mage Ingus gets thrown in with (Phoenix+Flame Shield)-Enhanced Locke!  And that should be NR!

If we rank any of the good guys, I say that we rank Desch.  At least he is with the party for a long time and has an individual skill set that doesn't match Kelvana's.  (Alus was, what 1 optional dungeon?  And I didn't see Sarah's Aero, or Cid's... well.. anything.)  As for his stats, assume Freelancer with storebought gear from either Cannan or Ancient Village.