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Author Topic: Magic  (Read 14156 times)

SnowFire

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Re: Magic
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2009, 12:34:42 AM »
Yeah, saw that.  Kind of annoyed, really.  I understand the need to add "pizzaz" to Core Sets these days, but the WotC Developers convinced me just fine that in retrospect, Lightning Bolt was busted.  The really bad thing is that the new rule switch about damage no longer stacking makes "tricks" awful and removal awesome.  The rough same balance could be achieved by powering up "tricks" and lessening removal...  but this massively STRENGTHENS removal.

Example: You attack with a 3/3, I block with a 3/3.  One of us has Giant Growth, the other has Lightning Bolt.  Old rules: I let damage go on the stack, then cast Giant Growth to save my critter.  You can respond with Lightning Bolt to kill him anyway, but it's 1:1 trades either way - your critter will die, and I'll lose my Giant Growth, and optionally we can also trade my critter for your Lightning Bolt.

New Rules: Same fight between two 3/3s.  But if the person with Giant Growth wants to save their critter now, they have to "show their hand" and cast GG before damage.  In response, Lightning Bolt.  2:1'd, as the 3/3 owned by the person casting Lightning Bolt now survives.

I can totally see why they made the rule change - it used to basically work this way, except that you could do damage prevention after damage - but this + strengthening removal = don't bother to play any spells that save or enhance your creatures.  I hope that Bolt is here just as a one-time nostalgia thing, and is not a long-term realignment of power.

NotMiki

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Re: Magic
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2009, 01:21:27 AM »
I don't like that stacking thing one bit.  Nice quote on Lightning Bolt, incidentally.

New rule: no one who uses Lightning Bolt can play cards newer than the Mirage block.  Balance restored.
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metroid composite

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Re: Magic
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2009, 01:40:19 AM »
Example: You attack with a 3/3, I block with a 3/3.  One of us has Giant Growth, the other has Lightning Bolt.  Old rules: I let damage go on the stack, then cast Giant Growth to save my critter.  You can respond with Lightning Bolt to kill him anyway, but it's 1:1 trades either way - your critter will die, and I'll lose my Giant Growth, and optionally we can also trade my critter for your Lightning Bolt.

New Rules: Same fight between two 3/3s.  But if the person with Giant Growth wants to save their critter now, they have to "show their hand" and cast GG before damage.  In response, Lightning Bolt.  2:1'd, as the 3/3 owned by the person casting Lightning Bolt now survives.
This is a fairly narrow scenario, to be fair.  I mean, if it's a 2/2 on one side and a 3/3 on the other, the person with the 2/2 will be forced to play their hand early, and get a worse outcome as a result (and notably they get the same outcome regardless of ruleset).

Though yeah, I don't see a real way removal is hurt by the rule change outside of special case creatures like Phantom Cenutar and Sengir Vampire (where the ability to have both bolt and combat damage on the stack matters).

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I hope that Bolt is here just as a one-time nostalgia thing, and is not a long-term realignment of power.
Well...bolt on its own is just one spell, which saves red decks 1 mana compared to incinerate, and generally just kills one creature so it's reactive rather than proactive.  If they start printing bolt clones in every set the way they do with shock clones, though...yeah, that would be crazy.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 01:42:02 AM by metroid composite »

Grefter

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Re: Magic
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2009, 08:01:58 AM »
It makes me happy to see it again purely for nostalgia, but that new rule probably means I won't play Magic again.  Waaay to trained up on the old rules to swap to that, it kind of... shifts way to much strategically for me to really switch to.
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Captain K.

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Re: Magic
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2009, 11:42:38 AM »
Back in the old days, before there were restrictions on the number of copies of a card and suchnot, a guy made a deck of all Lightning Bolts.

I beat it (ran him out of cards) with a deck of all Healing Salves.

AndrewRogue

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Re: Magic
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2009, 08:55:13 PM »
You just need to be more careful and analytical with your tricks, make them even trickier or WotC needs to better account for it by making tricks that generate better card advantage. I'm a little (and by little, I mean, very) rusty on Magic these days, but, from my understanding, this particular change makes damage in Magic pretty much identical to the World of Warcraft TCG pre-priority processing.

Despite heavy Instant removal capabilities, tricks are still pretty damn common. This is mainly because WoW tricks tend to be fairly obnoxious. The most stand out one is Holy Shock, which is a 3 Cost Holy Paladin Instant Ability (see: Instant) that prevents 4 damage to target Hero (see: player) or Ally (see: creature) and deals 4 unpreventable Holy Damage to target Hero or Ally. Pretty much a guaranteed 2-for-1 if it goes off, worst case of being a 1-for-1.

Personally, I'm inclined to think they might start leaning towards the latter, but I know so little of the current meta anymore.

metroid composite

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Re: Magic
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2009, 10:15:49 PM »
but that new rule probably means I won't play Magic again.  Waaay to trained up on the old rules to swap to that, it kind of... shifts way to much strategically for me to really switch to.
Huh?  The "new" rule is basically the old rules from 1998.  You know, back when Mog Fanatic couldn't block and kill a Grizzly bear, and when you had to choose between regenerating your creature or damaging the enemy creature.  It just means combat damage doesn't use the stack (much like...all other turn phases; it's not like you've ever been able to respond to someone being about to draw their card for the turn, for example).

The most stand out one is Holy Shock, which is a 3 Cost Holy Paladin Instant Ability (see: Instant) that prevents 4 damage to target Hero (see: player) or Ally (see: creature) and deals 4 unpreventable Holy Damage to target Hero or Ally. Pretty much a guaranteed 2-for-1 if it goes off, worst case of being a 1-for-1.
Speaking of which...
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 10:20:48 PM by metroid composite »

Grefter

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Re: Magic
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2009, 10:44:08 PM »
Eh?  I thought you used to be able to sacrifice things on the way to the graveyard.  You block with the Mogg, damage is dealth, on the way to the graveyard you sacrifice it.  That is how the PC adaptation always did it (WOOO ACCURACY OF RULES though >_>) and was certainly how we always played it before touching the PC.  I could swear there was a bit with that exact phrasing in the 4th Ed rulebook...
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NotMiki

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Re: Magic
« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2009, 11:04:00 PM »
Huh.  I thought you couldn't sacrifice on the way to the graveyard, but that regenerating didn't preclude dealing damage.  Yay Magic rules.
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Re: Magic
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2009, 04:12:00 AM »
As I recall, to sac a creature on the way to the graveyard you have to do so before combat damage is dealt (or in other words, put the effect that "sac creature" belongs to on the stack before the deal damage phase).  Though of course, if the sac effect is particularly devestating the player can always stack something else to get rid of the creature on top of that, though this is useless if you can activate the sac effect again in some manner.  Then again, I can't think of anything sitting here that doesn't tap in addition to "sac something" as a cost.
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kokushishin

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Re: Magic
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2009, 04:53:15 AM »

It's been several years since I've really played.   I usually end up with a couple of packs from the newer sets; somebody got me the Jace v. Chandra deck as a stocking stuffer. 

As far as deck size, I remember Jamie Wakefield had a certain rationale for a 62-card deck that at least sounded good.   There's also the 5 Color format, which demands 250 cards and at least 20 cards of each color IIRC.

metroid composite

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Re: Magic
« Reply #61 on: June 30, 2009, 06:09:36 PM »
Huh.  I thought you couldn't sacrifice on the way to the graveyard, but that regenerating didn't preclude dealing damage.  Yay Magic rules.
Well...yes, the thing about magic rules is that outside of tournaments everyone basically uses their own rules.

Speaking of which, I've actually spent some time reading the new combat rules now instead of making assumptions about them.  They actually benefit Giant Growth a lot.  Say, for example, you have some 1/1 tokens, a Giant Growth in hand, and your opponent is attacking with a 4/4 First Strike.  Under the old combat rules you'd need to gang block with 5 1/1 tokens and Giant Growth to kill, and even then you'd lose four tokens.  Under the new combat rules, you only need two tokens + Giant Growth, and only one token would die in combat.

SnowFire

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Re: Magic
« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2009, 07:00:46 AM »
Grefter / NotMiki: You are correct on the rules from the beginning to Tempest / 6th edition.  After that, they expanded the "damage prevention step" from being restricted to "prevent damage" to "do whatever," hence all the saccing of things that were shortly on their way to the graveyard.  And now it's changing back.

One interesting note on the old rules is that damage only killed stuff when the stack was empty.  So damage-based removal in response to defensive buffs wasn't as good; A lightning bolt in response to a Giant Growth doesn't help because the 3 damage just sits there, the Giant Growth happens, and the game only checks for death once everything's been resolved.  They changed that in 6th edition, and this is unchanged with the new new rules, so zapping in response to pump is effective.

kokushin: Having more than 60 cards is almost always a handicap, but it's a failrly minor one, so 61 and 62-card lists are generally fine.  Jace vs. Chandra is pretty cool indeed, though the games I've played with it tend to feel a bit like "does mana work out for Jace y/n."  Still a lot of fun, and much better balanced than Angels vs. Demons (Angels are much better, but Demons have 2-mega-bombs and ways to tutor for them, so it comes down to "could the Demons player find a super bomb" assuming mana is good on both sides.)

metroid: Eh, yes, in straight-combat, toughness boosting is now better.  You can use that to save "later" troops by toughness-boosting the first target of the attacker.  They'll be forced to pile all the damage on the toughness-boosted creature.  Doesn't change the fact that damage prevention is much, much worse (though Harm's Way is clearly a major power-up for damage prevention, which will be needed.), and more generally tricks are still completely owned by removal - that toughness pump still won't help in response to Terror or Lightning Bolt or whatever.

The first strike example is...  not quite right.  You should only lose 3 tokens under the old rules, and you only need 4 total - block, let the attacker put first strike damage on the stack.  Then Giant Growth a token that had 1 damage assigned.  It'll survive and kill the 4/4 once normal damage rolls around (and 3 tokens die).  Of course, examples of tricky stack usage are exactly why they're changing the rules, I suppose.

metroid composite

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Re: Magic
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2009, 07:29:37 AM »
The first strike example is...  not quite right.  You should only lose 3 tokens under the old rules, and you only need 4 total - block, let the attacker put first strike damage on the stack.  Then Giant Growth a token that had 1 damage assigned.  It'll survive and kill the 4/4 once normal damage rolls around (and 3 tokens die).  Of course, examples of tricky stack usage are exactly why they're changing the rules, I suppose.
Oh, right, the timing gap between First Strike damage and Regular damage.  Actually you'd only need 2 tokens (one of the two tokens will have less than 4 first strike damage stacked on it, then you giant growth it).

So...right, switch example to "opponent attacks a group of three 1/1 tokens with a 3/6".  His creature dies regardless, but for you it's the difference between losing 2 tokens and losing 0 tokens.

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and more generally tricks are still completely owned by removal - that toughness pump still won't help in response to Terror or Lightning Bolt or whatever.
It never did help against Terror, to be fair.

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Doesn't change the fact that damage prevention is much, much worse (though Harm's Way is clearly a major power-up for damage prevention, which will be needed.),
Damage prevention has been historically terrible.  Healing Salve is pretty universally considered a bad card, and I've seen arguments that the effect should be 7 and not 3 (and even there, the lifegain half would be the focus of the card, not the damage prevention).  Looking through the damage prevention available to standard right now, Ethersworn Shieldmage is the only one that jumps out at me as "actually, that card looks decent".  (Well...okay no, there's fog effects and Dolmen Gate, but those don't help against Bolt).
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 07:32:17 AM by metroid composite »

SnowFire

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Re: Magic
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2009, 01:31:34 PM »
Yeah, realized that you only needed two tokens under the old rules after the fact.

The toughness pump used to be better vs. removal when creatures were trading (which is fairly frequent).  That's the example I was mentioning before - when creatures are trading, under the old rules you could save your defensive trick for after damage was on the stack.  At that point, if they use removal, it's a 1:1 trade.  This could just be me, but I think this is huge.

Damage prevention has traditionally been meh in serious Constructed because it's only valuable in metagames with a lot of creature combat or against "burn decks."  It's pretty well a blank card vs. combo decks and some control decks... but these are less common at "kitchen table" games.  Plus, damage prevention is fine in Limited.  (For what it's worth, back in Odyssey-Onslaught-7th edition standard, I played a Master Apothecary ( http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29911 ) based Cleric deck in the local game store's tournaments.  Sure, he was a 3 mana 2/2 vs. hardcore control, but against the many creature decks of that era, he makes the whole team become crazy-powerful damage-preventers without summoning sickness.  It wasn't bad, I made the top 4 pretty consistently with it.)

Grefter

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Re: Magic
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2009, 03:10:03 PM »
Back in the day En'Kor deck was pretty goddamned infuriating to play in casual brackets.  Not damage prevention so much as redirection (until they got Protection from blah) and it was quite effective (much less good control play at that level though).
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metroid composite

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Re: Magic
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2009, 10:52:17 PM »
Damage prevention has traditionally been meh in serious Constructed because it's only valuable in metagames with a lot of creature combat or against "burn decks."

No, it's been meh because the available prevention has (usually) been terrible.  Healing Salve prevention is basically like the +0/+3 half of Giant Growth (arguably the less important half because it's the half you can't win with).  Oh, except damage prevention also can't save you from -X/-X effects.

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(For what it's worth, back in Odyssey-Onslaught-7th edition standard, I played a Master Apothecary ( http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29911 ) based Cleric deck in the local game store's tournaments.  Sure, he was a 3 mana 2/2 vs. hardcore control, but against the many creature decks of that era, he makes the whole team become crazy-powerful damage-preventers without summoning sickness.  It wasn't bad, I made the top 4 pretty consistently with it.)

Well yes, that would be an example of actually good damage prevention they made.  (There's some out there, but it seems to come once every three years or so).

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Plus, damage prevention is fine in Limited.

True.  On the other hand, it feels like most damage prevention is designed for limited (with power level targetted at around samite healer level).  I mean, Samite Healer is fine in limited, but the power level is clearly balanced for limited.  For constructed, you could make it a 2/2 that tapped to prevent 2 and that would probably be reasonable.

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Re: Magic
« Reply #67 on: July 01, 2009, 11:15:20 PM »
My mind can barely comprehend Samite Healer being a good or even a "fine" card. It, perhaps even more than Healing Salve (the scrub of the original "one mana for three of something" card as surely as Ancestral Recall was the broken one) always seemed emblematic of how bad damage prevention was compared to damage dealing. Prodigal Sorcerer crapped all over Samite Healer near as badly as Lightning Bolt did Healing Salve despite costing 1 more. Samite Healer was barely above Pearled Unicorn as "one of those common creature cards that everybody knows but nobody actually uses". Damage dealing can be played both proactively and reactively; the latter is purely reactive. For something like Samite Healer, it's even worse, because players can react to it. It's no difficulty at all for anyone aiming a Fireball to spend X+1 instead of X. Heck, Samite Healer can't even prevent its own demise at the hands of Pyroclasm, Shock, or the vast majority of damage cards in general, the very cards it is intended to spoil. And it only gets worse against a control deck that isn't based around damage (worst case scenario it's based around decking you, but it doesn't even need to do this to make Samite Healer and Healing Salve crap).

As usual I speak with the voice of someone who is moderately knowledgeable of how Magic was played about... 13-15 years ago, and know next to nothing since, so take my words with a grain of salt. Still, the topic triggered an age-old rant from my memories which I felt compelled to post.

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metroid composite

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Re: Magic
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2009, 02:17:17 AM »
As usual I speak with the voice of someone who is moderately knowledgeable of how Magic was played about... 13-15 years ago, and know next to nothing since, so take my words with a grain of salt. Still, the topic triggered an age-old rant from my memories which I felt compelled to post.
Magic hasn't changed a huge amount.

Expensive creatures have gotten better.  (1-mana and 2-mana still don't get much better than stuff like Mogg Fanatic and White Knight).  Probably about right to say that expensive creatures are a mana cheaper or so (except even moreso for 6-7 mana creatures).

Lots of non-creature spells have gotten worse ("Counter target spell" is 3 mana; "Return a creature from your graveyard to play" is 4 mana; they haven't confirmed yet but looks like "destroy target land" might be 4-5 mana now).

Creature removal uhh...has basically come full circle.  Bolt's back.  Terror-like cards are around.  Swords to Plowshares is sorta back, though modernized so as to not be totally broken.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and some stuff has changed colour; disenchant is green now.  Prodigal Sorcerer is red now.


Back to Samite Healer...the place where it's considered okay is Limited, which is a tournament format where roughly speaking you give peole six packs and tell them to make a 40-card deck.  This is a format where cards like Hill Giant, Giant Spider, and Wind Drake are considered pretty good, because they're commons and are bigger than other common creatures (high mana-cost creatures are typically rare these days).  Samite Healer is okay here, because it means your Hill Giants beat their Hill Giants (and continue to do so throughout the game), which is an effect you can't really achieve with, for example, Grizzly Bears.  It's a bit of an different format because the average magic pack has a lot more creature cards than creature kill cards.

That said, even casual players tend to build decks with stronger cards on average than Limited players, and yeah, Samite Healer is garbage in casual.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 02:36:43 AM by metroid composite »

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Re: Magic
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2009, 03:02:32 AM »
Right, that makes sense.

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kokushishin

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Re: Magic
« Reply #70 on: July 04, 2009, 11:52:31 AM »


An example on the creature difference:

Baneslayer Angel costs as much as Serra Angel (3WW). 
It trades vigilance (don't tap to attack) for first strike, lifelink (you gain life equal to damage it deals), protection from Demons, protection from Dragons AND it's 5/5 compared to Serra's 4/4.

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Re: Magic
« Reply #71 on: July 04, 2009, 12:37:57 PM »
Tell me that is a Rare compared to the Serra's Uncommon from 4th.
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metroid composite

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Re: Magic
« Reply #72 on: July 04, 2009, 05:17:20 PM »


An example on the creature difference:

Baneslayer Angel costs as much as Serra Angel (3WW).  
It trades vigilance (don't tap to attack) for first strike, lifelink (you gain life equal to damage it deals), protection from Demons, protection from Dragons AND it's 5/5 compared to Serra's 4/4.

Not actually confirmed yet, to be fair.

An example of a creature that is known and considered an excellent tournament card would be Cloudgoat Ranger.  Yeah, it's a little more threatening than Serra Angel.  However, the really relevant point with it being that it has a comes-into-play effect, so even if it gets hit by Terror, the fact that you paid 5 mana and they paid 2 mana doesn't put you horribly behind, because you still got some 1/1s out of the trade.

Tell me that is a Rare compared to the Serra's Uncommon from 4th.

Serra Angel is back to being Uncommon, yes.  (They decided it's okay to use it in Limited)


As for the uncomfirmed Baneslayer Angel...well the obvious comparison is Battlegrace Angel.  I've heard some people argue that Battlegrace is better, because if your opponent has sorcery speed removal (or is tapped out right now) at least you gave a creature +1/+1 and gained some life.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 05:21:48 PM by metroid composite »

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Re: Magic
« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2009, 05:16:06 AM »
Aaaand the rumor on that one turns out to be true


kokushishin

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Re: Magic
« Reply #74 on: July 06, 2009, 05:21:37 AM »

MTGS has a pretty good track record.