Anonyrandomafia: Game over (Scum win)

[Khan Noonian Singh]

I have returned. You must relent to let me fetch myself an evening meal, a task that lesser men would find daunting on such a barren wasteland. Mark my words, for I shall catch up within the hour.

[Khan Noonian Singh]

First:
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg37947#msg37947

So much questioning over so much that is readily evident, Mr. Miyagi. I question your wisdom, but as the answers are so readily available, allow me to enlighten you.

I find myself innocent for
1) causing sudden death - really, with the communications problems this was strictly better than voting for Mr. Flanders or to stand by and watch him die anyway, regardless of where my vote would eventually end up. Thanks for mentioning this as suspicious in one breath and then discreetly clear me of it a few later.
2) not putting the hammer down personally - even if you don't believe that I was writing a hammer post when Excel's came through, it matters little when I'd made my position clear. How loudly need I scream from the edge of a crater that I supported that lynching? Judge me for that choice, yes, but not for supposed indecision. What was there possible to be gained from it, when it clearly wasn't to veil intentions?
3) choosing Mr. Flanders over the little queen at the end - measured decision of loss if she's not innocent against the gain if she is and weighing those odds. Mr. Flanders' defense was most likely vanilla, which was the lesser evil. The little queen's lurking would factor more heavily if not for it ending (and had it not ended I would have stuck to backing her lynching), and should persist no further. Yes, I think we were probably choosing between two innocents.


I find myself guilty of
1) not making my initial position on Mr. Flanders clear, and
2) flailing around at every new piece of information.

In brief: (ask for expansion and you shall receive and no, it's not quite chronological)
Start of the game = better feel for Mr. Flanders than other players. Way down any list.
Return to see choice between Mr. Flanders and the little queen = oh well, lurker must be worse, right.
Slapped in the face by Mr. Yangus's exposé, immediately followed up by checking Mr. Serling's source of the train = hang on a minute, these contradictions are compelling.
Time running out too quick = well yes, yes I will buy more time to do this sensibly.
Actually reading back = no, I disagree with Mr. Flanders's demonization of lurkers as the top priority, but I don't read nearly as much ill intent from it as the others do. The case is compelling but uncomfortable.
Mr. Flanders' defense = this is a load of crap... hang on, this actually reads quite strongly as desperate vanilla. In addition to my unease on the position that leaves us with the lurker, just short of a timely revival.
The little queen rolls out a soft role claim = oh for Heaven's sake, now I'm either choosing between a likely innocent and an evil despot, or between a likely innocent and a powerful innocent. Way to up the stakes.
From there to the end = the little queen does much to sway my mind on her position, keeping in mind that it will be undone if she drops back into the background again, but convinced enough to weigh it as innocent versus probably more innocent.

[Khan Noonian Singh]

Secondly: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg37955#msg37955

Ash: You bite at me every turn for the strangest of reasons. For hating flavor posting when I clearly do not and use it myself. For flavor posting when I have striven to be clear in spite of maintaining a persona and mostly dropped it when it was still being used against me. And now for causing sudden death to happen when it was distinctly a good move on my part and for being responsible for a death that I would have had a hard time preventing if I had stood against it. I'm not sure what you want from me when you're chasing a white whale.

I blame Khan more than her,

Wait, what, this claim is outright flabergasting. I chose Mr. Flanders over the little queen in the end, but I gave both of them as much of a chance as possible. Had the little queen fallen in the pacifist's place you may have had a case, but the road to save Mr. Flanders would have turned out to be a long and winding one indeed between the little queen's sudden burst of life and Mr. Flanders' accusers turning out to be resolute (the little queen could not move, Mr. Serling and yourself explicitly stated that you wouldn't, and Mr. Yangus had left after being quite certain of his guilt). This is the very peak of grasping at something that isn't there.

This hounding is unnatural. This is more than likely heading towards a vote once I've finished reviewing the thread in a bit, unless it somehow turns out that you've done something amazingly innocent that I missed on the first pass.

[Excel]

Excal has returned from her moon-crater!
Ok, a couple of thoughts first to start off, while I was catching up:

Crow - Death's caps was cruise-control for cool, it's a part of his flavor; but he's gone now, so that doesn't really matter.

Excel is a waste of flesh and sinew. Let's use her as a pinata and see what comes out. The more I think about her, the more my opinion that someone that stupid is probably a dupe of the planet eaters. And that's not even considering the wine in front of me and the potential of obfuscating stupidity, which gives people a pass far too often. But why would someone get that kind of attention, one might ask? Because her lynch was very unlikely to happen at that stage with Queeny so close to lynching, and certainly not during sudden death between Queeny and Flanders. If you're going to make such a bold play, where else but day 1 if you consider yourself reasonably safe from lynch? And if Queeny's scum with her, it's not just bold but brilliant, in a crazy sort of way.

Excel might be dumb, but that's too mean for Excal  T_T
Crow here.. WIFOM really.
And accusing me of coming up with a big conspiracy theory? Me? I can't even tie my own shoelaces so I wear boots! Il Palazzo makes the plans, alas I am on the moon and he is in Japan.
The idea that I'd try and draw attention for myself...  "But why would someone get that kind of attention, one might ask?" - you didn't really even answer that question yourself. You just said that day 1 is a good time to do it; but why would I want to do that?

Queeny is a very good option and only Death's supreme scumminess is preventing me from looking at her as a replacement pinata at this time. The softclaim is weak and doesn't factor into my decision one bit, as well it shouldn't. Let's see some quality content and participation here, and have it speak for itself.

That's all well and good, but providing some reasons would be nice.

Miyagi:  I don't really see the big deal. I shall read through all his posts again later tonight, but for now I'm cool with the Japanese sensei. YEAH! *thumbs up*... for now -_-
The Dude seems pretty helpful, I like him.
Khan - If we hadn't posted at the same time, there's nothing to say he wouldn't have hammered. I give him benefit of the doubt. And it was a close call between Queen and Ned, so I can't fault him on that either. He was being too wordy earlier, but is much better now. I"ll wait for this Ash v Khan thing before I make any judgements.
Yangus - I like what he says, when he says it. Which doesn't seem often enough. Queeny is already poking him though, so I'll lay off.
I have no idea about Ash, and I'm against outright training Queen just because she was up for lynch yesterday, especially since she handled herself well there.

I don't feel confident about voting just yet, especially not after my screw-up at the end of yesterday >.> That's what I get for rushing things! I'm going to wait a while and let my brain process things and read over again until I form some better opinions. But first I must find where I left my brain...

[Khan Noonian Singh]

No, I really can't see reason around ##VOTE: Ash at this point.

I'm going to have to admit that I don't know who the character is. Tell me that he's an aggressive prick and like half of my case resolves itself. There's just so much vitriol any time that he opens his mouth, and I can't tell just how much I'm supposed to be taking with a pinch of salt as being in character, and how much that's just being used to justify his own means.

I've no idea where the vendetta on my head came from, as the case in whole is flavor posting vs flavor posting at http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg37798#msg37798, just plain wrong counts of flavor post and spam at http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg37845#msg37845, the opportunist kick for the second hammer at http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg37917#msg37917 before the vote came today http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg37955#msg37955 for a sum total of baffling reasons as covered in my previous post. The one and only case that you've actually brought up at any point is the implication of low content (which I refute), but you've only brought this up under the banner of misusing flavor posting.

(Oh, and I do appear to have missed out http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg37877#msg37877 as the reaction to sudden death, which I wouldn't have cared about had me misread it as an immediate backing against the little queen as opposed to gaining time, but he's resolutely stuck to this after it was made clear by multiple denizens)

I cannot envisage an innocent rationale behind these odd moves. Hate me for what I do and I am pained. Hate me for something that I haven't actually done and I am enraged.

The anger really hasn't helped up to the point that I've realized by reading more than one post at a time that it's almost certainly at least mostly flavor. Reactionary votes on the foul fiend Death and Miss Excel, the push on the latter in particular, tempered with going with the flow (I like how you're hitting me for my flittiness over the Mr. Flanders and little queen issue but were only a few hours in the green away from the same position, for what I imagine is mostly the same rationale, other than the threat to jump right back on the little queen). Bizarre connections with and support of Mr. Yangus places Mr. Ash / Mr. Yangus as my most likely pair at this point.

(Yes, I'm assuming a pair, don't jump on me for that. One would be crazy weak [and would pretty much have to be the little queen, given that her roleblocking claim would necessarily be a lie], and three would be LYLO as of the foul fiend's disappearance, which has not been announced from the heavens as we were told it would be)

[Khan Noonian Singh]

I don't get why Mr. Miyagi's getting called on what he's been saying more than what he hasn't been. Am I really the only one who's noticed that he's only really talked about three people in the whole game? He has spoken little and said even less. Worse still that his devotion to training should lead him to serial tunnel-vision and now use it as an excuse not to talk about anything else other than his own defense on waiting for my return (especially when I've been posting at regular intervals in the day and it should have been clear when I'd next appear, albeit slightly late on this most dreadful of days).

Mr. Yangus is less worrying outside of the Ash connection. Not quite as bad as Mr. Miyagi for low quantity and certainly not as bad in terms of quality and range. Actually, looking at it from Mr. Yangus's side makes the Mr. Ash / Mr. Yangus partnership less likely. His lesser concerns for Mr. Ash near the beginning of day 1 convince no one, but the interaction over Miss Excel is odd. No follow ups on a lot of minor issues brought up, but then he's yet to show his face on this day to do so. The push on Flanders has me worried in hindsight.

Miss Excel is a complete wild card. Her actions serve no one well, and so could be in service of anyone. I am currently less perplexed with her than I may be as a Mr. Ash / Miss Excel pair seems quite unlikely given the former's opportunistic leap on the latter.

The tin man weirds me out for not responding to my missive at http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg37825#msg37825. I mean, his actions since then have been as if he's responded to it in the right way, but not even a nod to it at any point? Chunks of WIFOM in all directions to support yet not support his points destroys my confidence in him. I disagree with much of his current reasoning, but do not fault the position held on the foul fiend Death, who had earned the suspicion long before that point, even if not quite so early and strongly as he had originally went with. Urrgh, this is suddenly all negative when I thought I was reading him innocent after a bad start. I'm going to have to call this misguided but well meaning. (Miyagi's not in your little diagram, by the way)

The little queen sits in that queer void somewhere between likely greatest ally and conniving traitor. Roleblocking changes it for naught, as the claim fits with both possibilities and just polarizes it a step further. The lack of day 1 material is paralyzing, but it's only the passive attempt at surviving the deadlock that really turns me. The timing at sudden death was convenient but can't really have been planned when mere hours ago she should have been expecting to draw moon-lightning. Getting on for solid, if flawed arguments (I'll get to that. I hope on this eve rather than on the morrow).

"The Dude" remains the least suspicious. Do you really need me to back this up? I can and will if pushed, but I tire of writing and I deem this an insignificance to expand upon.

Mr. Ash > Mr. Miyagi > (Mr. Yangus > the tin man > the little queen) > "The Dude"          ??Miss Excel??    () = quantum area of close yet uncertain ordering

Miss Excel in particular I really need to study once more to place where she really belongs inside this oozing mass, but as a secondary concern I shall let it slide until after being refreshed by the embrace of the unconsciousness.

[Khan Noonian Singh]

Excel is a waste of flesh and sinew. Let's use her as a pinata and see what comes out. The more I think about her, the more my opinion that someone that stupid is probably a dupe of the planet eaters. And that's not even considering the wine in front of me and the potential of obfuscating stupidity, which gives people a pass far too often. But why would someone get that kind of attention, one might ask? Because her lynch was very unlikely to happen at that stage with Queeny so close to lynching, and certainly not during sudden death between Queeny and Flanders. If you're going to make such a bold play, where else but day 1 if you consider yourself reasonably safe from lynch? And if Queeny's scum with her, it's not just bold but brilliant, in a crazy sort of way.

I can't really parse this, man. It's just kind of a mess of WIFOM, from where I'm sitting over here. Think you could break it down a little? Because if it's going to be part of your ammo against Excel and/or the Queen, I want to understand the fucking thing better.

Has been as yet unaddressed despite several posts since. Contemplation fails on why the tin man manages to pass off direct comments. I'd also second the call, as I don't think it even parses well as WIFOM. If you're seeing a femme fatale partnership, Miss Excel's vote for the little queen in the first place is suspect, as I can envision several better paths for her to have gone down at that point than making an ass out of herself over the little queen. No commander in history could have approved of such a gambit, nor the gambit of leaving Miss Excel as the remaining traitor at large in case of a lynch.

And in general I can't see the massive benefit in turning up, making mistakes and taking responsibility for executing an innocent (I'm incredibly minorly concerned by the move of simply unvoting the little queen over voting for Mr. Flanders as well having previously said he also deserved it - as I've been accused, so did Miss Excel say that she would address Mr. Flanders if she had the time and then did not) over just opting not being around at all and working through the lurking claims. At least most of us are being careful against lynching her for what may be honest mistakes, but it's not as if she's gained great credit for that.

[Excel]

And in general I can't see the massive benefit in turning up, making mistakes and taking responsibility for executing an innocent (I'm incredibly minorly concerned by the move of simply unvoting the little queen over voting for Mr. Flanders as well having previously said he also deserved it - as I've been accused,

Uh what hold on. I was reading through and this caught my eye.

You do realise that unvoting Queen caused Flanders to be instantly lynched right? So why would it matter if I didn't type 'vote: flanders'?
Are you insinuating that I tried to avoid responsibility for hammering Ned because I didn't vote for him?
You're 'incredibly minorly concerned' - does this mean you're incredibly concerned about this minor point, or you're minorly concerned about an incredible point?

I'd like to know why you are making a point out of this at all.
##Vote: Khan

[Khan Noonian Singh]

Came to Excel's defense, jumped on Flanders, and... that's pretty much it in terms of what he's done.  What really catches my attention is the lack of him being called out on it.  He says Flanders didn't take stances, but Flanders DID take stances, against Excel and Miyagi.  As Flanders was the eventual mislynch I think this bears a lot of looking at.

I think you're pressing these points too strongly. We're going to have to meet halfway on his activities, as you haven't given him enough credit, and I think I may have given him too much. At the very least he also took issue with Mr. Ash, and the Miss Excel defense was mentioned in advance of the important part. Mr. Flanders's stance was less against specific people as it was against a generic principle, which whilst still nobler than many other potential generic targets, does not fault Mr. Yangus for calling him on fence-squatting. It is the big push against Mr. Flanders that has me worried about several people (a preferable traitor kill over yourself? I guess that can be the only stance you can really have for accusing Mr. Yangus when you still had a giant bullseye on you for easy lynch material at that point), but I can't see this push bearing fruit.

Miyagi has consistently solid posts and arguments,

I must disagree, for reasons already covered.

[Khan Noonian Singh]

Oh for the love of all things wonderful, Miss Excel. 'Incredibly minorly concerned' most clearly means that the minor aspect of the concern is in itself incredible, hence a very small, insignificant point. This cannot be read any other way, so your confusion is frustrating.

The concern is that yes, unvoting without revoting implies more that you did not want the little queen lynched than that you accepted Mr. Flanders's lynching. A queer twist of fate after having said that you did not think well of the pacifist, made minor by how closely monitored the whole debackle has been observed anyway. The move was odd enough to at least flag when no one else has done so, but was not implied as a necessarily cursed sign.

[Excel]

The concern is that yes, unvoting without revoting implies more that you did not want the little queen lynched than that you accepted Mr. Flanders's lynching. A queer twist of fate after having said that you did not think well of the pacifist, made minor by how closely monitored the whole debackle has been observed anyway. The move was odd enough to at least flag when no one else has done so, but was not implied as a necessarily cursed sign.

That's.. really stupid. Unvoting Queen automatically hammered Ned. Even if I had voted for Ned after unvoting Queen, it still wouldn't have done anything, because he was already hammered! The vote wouldn't even have been counted.

Voting for Ned after hammering him would be pointless, so I did not do it (as I am lazy).
The fact that you've brought it up as a point to consider just really shows that you're grasping at every straw, and is dodgy.

.....actually my vote for you is also pointless now that I think about it, as you're probably about to be modkilled for great walls of text in a consise mafia game :S

Mod

[Excel]

Oro? Where did my question mark go?


Mod?*

[Yangus]

COR BLIMEY!

And 'ere I thought I 'ad something.  Suppose that's why I 'ang around with the Guv, imagine 'e wouldn't 'ave made a mistake like that.  But, no point mopin' about it if we're gonna catch some world eaters.

'Spose the first thing I'll be needin' to do is look at what the old geezer's been sayin' about me while I've been gone.  Though, I don't see why, she's a bit off on what she's saying.  That Flander's bloke wasn't talkin' against people, he was talkin' against blokes what weren't 'ere.  I suppose there might be something to it, but the things 'e said that didn't touch on that were things 'e dropped.  I could continue on, but I've said my piece on 'im already, and seems I've been dead wrong in doin' so.

Then there's this Excel skirt, or should I say Excal skirt, seems to be callin' herself by two different names if you ask me.  Can quite make out what she is, as one moment she'll be makin a 'uge fuss over a mistake in sudden death, and the next she'll be callin the mods because a bloke's in love wit his own voice.  Thinkin' about 'er a bit more brings up the fact that I can't quite remember wot she's 'ad to say about anyone.  Still don't feel right, thinkin' she's some world eatin' thingamabob, but she's jus' said 'er piece once and it's a bare skinny thing of a paragraph talkin' about three people.  The rest of it is jus' screamin' wit the old geezer when the day shoulda been over yesterday.

One final note fer this post, Khan.  I know we're a bright bloke, like the Guv, but I jes can't 'elp but feel that with your point against that Excel skirt that you're just outsmartin' yourself.

[Crow T. Robot]

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg37999#msg37999

The Queen responds! Once. And then she goes away. Again.

Crow is zealous, but on the wrong cases (as has just been handily demonstrated I think) and I don't know if I like how he's pushing this list.  It comes off as him having a predetermined list of targets and then finding reasons to vote for them, rather than the other way around.

I have two objections to the above. First, it's a wrong case, as in singular, not plural. Death was being scummy and then requested a modkill altogether. Such a level of low content and presence is surely suspicious well into day 2. And that brings us to objection #2, where I'm claimed to have a predetermined list of some sort. Now, I know it might seem that way, with the detailed justification for the vote on Death coming much after said vote. However, the cases on both Death and the Queen are pretty straight-forward. Neither seemed right to me from the way they've acted, and I can see a pretty disturbing pattern of lurking. I expanded on that for Death as soon as I was able to because it apparently wasn't as clear to others (given people weren't voting for him). In your case, I wonder whether I need to add anything beyond mentioning that this is your sole day 2 contribution thus far.

So I was roleblocked last night.  There is a scum roleblocker!  Good to know.  Blah blah obvious attempt to set me up for lynching since this is clearly highly suspicious to claim, but no one else has reasons to trust me on it, so yeah moving on.  There is nothing I can say to defend against the case on me except to keep playing and making cases on others.

Blah blah obvious attempt to avoid responsibility for the fakeclaim? Softclaim? I'm not sure how to call what you did the previous day.


http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg38036#msg38036

KHAAAAAAANN was saying:

Has been as yet unaddressed despite several posts since. Contemplation fails on why the tin man manages to pass off direct comments. I'd also second the call, as I don't think it even parses well as WIFOM. If you're seeing a femme fatale partnership, Miss Excel's vote for the little queen in the first place is suspect, as I can envision several better paths for her to have gone down at that point than making an ass out of herself over the little queen. No commander in history could have approved of such a gambit, nor the gambit of leaving Miss Excel as the remaining traitor at large in case of a lynch.

And in general I can't see the massive benefit in turning up, making mistakes and taking responsibility for executing an innocent (I'm incredibly minorly concerned by the move of simply unvoting the little queen over voting for Mr. Flanders as well having previously said he also deserved it - as I've been accused, so did Miss Excel say that she would address Mr. Flanders if she had the time and then did not) over just opting not being around at all and working through the lurking claims. At least most of us are being careful against lynching her for what may be honest mistakes, but it's not as if she's gained great credit for that.

In case he means I haven't addressed the concerns in question in the first paragraph, I actually have here ( http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg37978#msg37978 ) in the final paragraph of that post. On retrospect I saw it wasn't the best place for the clarification, but we are not allowed to edit our posts.

I do worry about their potential partnership, and I do think Excel is getting away with too much. It is my concern that the more 'mistakes', as you've called it, that Excel does, the more she would get away with as time goes by.

And I'm not going to comment on Excel fully just yet, but the request to have Khan modkilled is pretty disgusting given Excel escaped a modkill dictated by the rules for a prolonged period of absence herself, and I consider that a far greater offense than posting more content than 300 words per post would allow.

[Crow T. Robot]

More to the point, I can't reconcile the two. Miyagi ends one post with the first quote, and starts his next post with the second. Queeny hasn't posted in that period. So his case on her suspicious behavior and lurking is only stronger with time, right?

Miyagi problem with Elizabeth because she say nothing of relevant. Not because she not there.

That's pretty weak, kung fu man. Lizzy not being there => Lizzy saying nothing of relevance by default. The more time she spends not being there, the more time she thus says nothing of relevance. And yet, against all logic, as time passed and deadline approached you gave less weight to her lack of content and moved your vote off her.

I see an attempt on Flanders's behalf to deal with the criticism leveled towards him and to continue with his stated attempt to target lurkers for prodding. The link he uses in his case to justify the vote on Flanders is from a post made well before Miyagi's first post, at which time he went after the Queen instead.

In light of the above, I don't buy it. What, it just came to his attention all of a sudden, like one of those epiphanies? Nothing in the vote-post implies the opinion was recent, as I read it.

Ned still no comment on relevant case. Is much worse than Elizabeth, who may overlooking when posting quick. Ned just showing apathy for problem we discuss. Miyagi felt important Ned also comment on it, instead of spend Day 1 only prod lurker and do nothing else. Not can read someone action if only prod lurker and not comment on discussion.

So because Ned was visibly there once, it had to be apathy, and Lizzy could've been using invisible mode to her heart's content but that gets her off the block? My problem has a lot to do with how you decided on suspiciousness, as it feels entirely too arbitrary. Now, while I support the view of lurking-benefiting-scum, I could easily switch to stronger cases if there's evidence of scumminess. But your evidence of scumminess that overtakes going after lurkers is... lurking in plain sight, which you ascribe to Ned and is somewhat debatable given Ned's only posted, what, once in that period? I'd expect his posting to be heavier if he were attempting that.

Now, I'm totally with you on the "Not can read someone action if only prod lurker and not comment on discussion." front. But hey, can you read someone who posts only when they're about to be lynched? Or who only deigns to post day 2 right after she receives a vote, and remains silence since? Is the behavior you prescribe to Ned really "much worse than Elizabeth, who may overlooking when posting quick"? Plus I'm not that convinced we should be giving Lizzy a break here, like you're doing. Overlooking things while panicking at being up for a lynch is possible. So is flailing as scum and lurking.

In fact, maybe someone else should place a second vote on Lizzie and see whether that nets us a second post from her today?

Khan! Question.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg38012#msg38012

From there to the end = the little queen does much to sway my mind on her position, keeping in mind that it will be undone if she drops back into the background again, but convinced enough to weigh it as innocent versus probably more innocent.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg38033#msg38033

The little queen sits in that queer void somewhere between likely greatest ally and conniving traitor. Roleblocking changes it for naught, as the claim fits with both possibilities and just polarizes it a step further. The lack of day 1 material is paralyzing, but it's only the passive attempt at surviving the deadlock that really turns me. The timing at sudden death was convenient but can't really have been planned when mere hours ago she should have been expecting to draw moon-lightning. Getting on for solid, if flawed arguments (I'll get to that. I hope on this eve rather than on the morrow).

Mr. Ash > Mr. Miyagi > (Mr. Yangus > the tin man > the little queen) > "The Dude"          ??Miss Excel??    () = quantum area of close yet uncertain ordering

I seek a clarification. Due to a lack of day 1 material, day 2 material and aforementioned passive defense, has her sway of your mind been sufficiently undone yet? And, in fact, what exactly makes Lizzy such a great townie? The sorta-kinda roleclaim? Inside knowledge?

[Queen Elizabeth I]

Wrong cases plural, thank you Mr Robot, since I happen to know you're wrong on me as well.

I remain incredibly disturbed by Yangus, his post says nothing much and votes for no one.  I think he may well have spoken less than me altogether and that's not good.  Completely disagree with Khan on him - he may have range, but I don't see substance.  Not really sure what else there is to be said here, giant red flags waving?  Please lynch him even though he speaks Our English?

I remain baffled by Khan.  You're trying to read passiveness into Excel's sudden death hammer by what now?  Seriously?  What in the heck?

I remain facepalming at Excel.  Nobody's posting wall of texts.

I remain thoroughly antagonized by Crow.  Yep, I do still have a lot of distractions going on, nope I won't be posting all that much, if this makes for a straightforward case on me I suggest you step back and reconsider.  "Just like the Death case," you say, and how is that working out for you with him flipping townie and all?  Hows about that there Yangus, the person actually not posting anything of relevance?

I remain neutral-to-leaning-townie on Miyagi, Dude and Ash.

In conclusion nothing has really changed since my last post.  Sooooooo.

[Crow T. Robot]

Let me make my points again, this time not giving you the luxury of claiming you couldn't find them or misrepresenting my tone to mean something else.

1) First post suspiciously conveniently timed just after the heat was turned on. 20 minutes to write one line is baffling.
2) Second post non-committal, misrepresents flavor text as meaningful, and has waited until both Mr. Miyagi and Mr. Flanders have voiced concerns in my direction.
3) Seeming inability to pull actual meaning from the flavoring. (If you guys think I'm being obtuse, I'll tone it down, but I think I'm being clear enough)
4) Defense in the face of Death is justified, but unfairly compares yourself with "The Dude."
5) Observations were incredibly shallow given post density. Majority by weight is/was sheer defence. (I'd say that they're still not very broad, but I'll concede that this is probably the case for most if not all of us.)
6) Continued misrepresentation to drive my case off as stupid and baseless.

No, I'm far from convinced that this paints your weak yellow frame black, but I am certain this has not bore me baseless concerns. I will be looking elsewhere, but you shall remain in my field of vision.

Since Khan insists on having me rehash this, I might as well. It's only fair since I asked him something myself. Since most of this has either been addressed or doesn't actually apply and I don't actually find Khan suspicious I pretty much considered doing said response a waste of time today. Plus the sentence he chose to end that post with implied to me that he didn't have a strong case on me, would keep on watching me to make up his mind later on based on my future actions, and that hardly anything I said could actually make a difference with the above.

1) Okay. You got me. My knowledge of the character is so scarce I had to wiki up whether I have legs. I got caught up reading and stalled for longer than one normally would making the post. I also already explained my rationale for waiting before posting before.
2+3) You call it flavor text, but hiding behind flavor text is possible. It is even more possible to make slight slips and cover them up as flavor text. Miyagi is being hounded for double negatives obscuring his true meaning, and yet, it is perfectly flavorful as well as a valid argument. I considered whether I wanted to say anything, since it was pretty minor, but ended up going with it.
4) It was not so much a full comparison with The Dude but that we shared a certain aspect and that wasn't even commented on one bit. I feel it was a valid point.
5) So. Pretty much similar or better participation than most during day 1.
6) It was stupid and baseless. Like I already said in another post, building a 3-vote train from a jokevote, a vote made pretty randomly to encourage serious discussion and an utterly weak vote from a lurker for pretty dubious reasons is ridiculous. I'm not sure what you mean by actual misrepresentations I've made, though. It could be the way we disagree on flavor, scum slipping and an aspect of tunnelvision I saw at the lack of comments at The Dude.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg38033#msg38033

The tin man weirds me out for not responding to my missive at http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg37825#msg37825. I mean, his actions since then have been as if he's responded to it in the right way, but not even a nod to it at any point? Chunks of WIFOM in all directions to support yet not support his points destroys my confidence in him. I disagree with much of his current reasoning, but do not fault the position held on the foul fiend Death, who had earned the suspicion long before that point, even if not quite so early and strongly as he had originally went with. Urrgh, this is suddenly all negative when I thought I was reading him innocent after a bad start. I'm going to have to call this misguided but well meaning. (Miyagi's not in your little diagram, by the way)

I've responded now in full, since you so insisted. Chunks of WIFOM in all directions, you say? I hardly think you have a leg to stand on wrt claims of misrepresentation. The only bit of WIFOM applies to Excel, and I clearly labeled it as such. Can it really be that people don't actually know where the acronym came from? In any case, the case on Death was solid enough, if ultimately wrong. The case on Lizzie doesn't rely on WIFOM one bit, and is just as solid. I've calmly waited for her to participate, but none occurred until I finally placed a vote her way, and nothing has happened since. And back to WIFOM, I specifically chose Lizzie over Excel due to it being a key component in one case but not the other; I fail to see how it could be claimed all my arguments are thus tainted with WIFOM and thus should be summarily dismissed. I have yet to push a single case based on its merits.

[Crow T. Robot]

And our Queen returns. I'm sorry, should I use sarcasm tags when I say that you've made several claims and I don't really believe them? I suppose it's a good thing you've told us I'm wrong on you. Now we can all summarily stop considering your case.

As a thought experiment, I would like to request you to comment on Death's behavior without knowledge of his alignment and then answer whether such behavior seems more likely to be scum or town. And afterwards, ponder whether the same thing applies to you as well. Oh noes I accused a scummy-seeming person who ended up being innocent. How unique of me. That's not a rebuttal of my attack on you, sorry. Yangus lacks content, I'll freely grant you that. Do you consider your content thus far to have higher value than his? I contest that strongly.

You're not sure what else you can do here but wave red flags? Well, here's a thought. Khan stated the obvious: there are two scum (if you are telling the truth, and of course, you are). Link Yangus to his scummy pair. If you're that strongly convinced of his guilt, how about working at it from a new direction to convince us all? But you haven't tried that. Beyond an attack on Yangus and vague thoughts on 2-3 others that don't really go anywhere, you're neutral on the rest. Coupled with your lacking, by your own admission, participation... no, 'Death did many similar things and was town' is not a defense as far as I'm concerned.

[Khan Noonian Singh]

First off, Miss Excel, as time goes by this frustration turns to infuriation.

You blow the tiniest of points of intrigue into full blown warfare:

To clarify even further - at no point during sudden death do you address Mr. Flanders other than an initial 'Mr. Flanders is bad, but the little queen is worse' (and this is your only opinion on Mr. Flanders ever). It's all about how you dislike the little queen, and even after realising your error in one case, there is no comparison to Mr. Flanders as to why he is the superior target, which is symbolised most beautifully in the lack of the revote. I've been accused of flip-flopping, but at least it was between two options rather than on and off of one. As I've said, it's quite minor, actually less so than I first thought now that I've checked things like your background on Mr. Flanders, but it was worth flagging for the semi-vision.

You put a vote on me for the weakest of reasons just after a post declaring how you're really going to think things through this time. I'd have put that down as oh, she's confused something really daft, let me explain it and we can get on with things, but no, you misread the explanation, once again make a huge issue out of it and have the nerve to threaten me with moon-lightning as if to disregard in advance any defense that could be made.

In my case it was called exploring every avenue, didn't even feature in any sort of argument and nor had I listed you with any manner of priority. In your case this is grasping at the first little shiny thing you see and using it to ignore everything else at the table, which I'm liable to call smokescreening.

In truth, there was a degree of bad meta-reasoning holding me back from considering you pretty seriously, in that it seems like a needlessly risky strategem to try and get away with lurking for 36 hours in a game with a stated 24 hour limit on lurking. Far from water-tight I am well aware, but call it circumstantial profiling. Your broken logic needs fixing for the good of the town, but I must now seriously consider whether this should be fatally rather than instructively.

(I am not yet sufficiently convinced that it's not just plain human incomprehension to change my vote from its solid placing)

[Sierra]

Current votecount:

Ash (1): Khan
Khan (3): Mr. Miyagi, Ash, Excel
Mr. Miyagi (1): The Dude
Queen Elizabeth (1): Crow T. Robot
Yangus (1): Queen Elizabeth

There are roughly 25 hours remaining.

With eight alive it takes five to lynch.

Mod's note: I'm not going through and counting the number of words in people's posts or anything, but, again, succinct posting = topic is more readable for both players and bystanders. The dread Wall o' Text really is offputting. Khan and Crow are pushing it a bit, but I'm not modkilling anyone for this. Excel, asking for another player's modkill is incredibly lame. Don't do this.

[Khan Noonian Singh]

Tin man:

It is with great regret that I must announce that I find myself with too little time to respond to your questioning in the here and now. In short yes, even in the quantum zone I previous listed it is unfair to put the little queen ahead of you, as my more recent concerns do appear to be errors of my own making.

As with the encroaching deadline on the first day, so shall I put effort into returning once more before my more typical appearance much later on. I cannot promise true depth and erudition in that period, but I shall do no less than outlining the issues at hand for which I may be held to account.


Edit: oh word of mod, I shall do what I can. I fear only imprecision, which has been called upon me anyway.

[Ash]

The anger really hasn't helped up to the point that I've realized by reading more than one post at a time that it's almost certainly at least mostly flavor. Reactionary votes on the foul fiend Death and Miss Excel, the push on the latter in particular, tempered with going with the flow (I like how you're hitting me for my flittiness over the Mr. Flanders and little queen issue but were only a few hours in the green away from the same position, for what I imagine is mostly the same rationale, other than the threat to jump right back on the little queen). Bizarre connections with and support of Mr. Yangus places Mr. Ash / Mr. Yangus as my most likely pair at this point.

(Yes, I'm assuming a pair, don't jump on me for that. One would be crazy weak [and would pretty much have to be the little queen, given that her roleblocking claim would necessarily be a lie], and three would be LYLO as of the foul fiend's disappearance, which has not been announced from the heavens as we were told it would be)

The character is arrogant, smug, and aggressive, yes. Am I acting in character or not? Who knows! Thats the fun part.

Reactionary votes on Death and Excel? Certainly not the former. He wasn't contributing much, and his sole posts were incredibly poorly constructed (even for Day 1). Lurked something fierce, and it's only post fact that we know he was town with connection troubles. I stand by that vote. Excel I'll agree with you more, but it wasn't as reactionary as you want people to think. I will say again, scummy behavior must be questioned, and I even paused before putting the vote on her so she could stop and explain herself, or even calm down. Serling and Yangus convinced me otherwise.

Your "flittiness" over the Flanders/Queen issue isn't so much that you debated the issue and hesitated. That was fine. The suspicious part is where you claim you intend to hammer, then extend the day. I will grant it allowed us to get more out of Queen and Excel, but that really is dumb luck, as it could have just as easily backfired. Saying one thing and doing another is one of the worst looking things you can do in Mafia.

Khan actually has a point in that there are probably two scum. The rules say we're warned of LYLO or potential LYLO, so if there were 3 scum for 8 people we'd be in potential LYLO, with everything coming down to the night action if we lost a townie. No notice, so 2 scum.

I'm facepalming at Excel at this point. Even as sure on Khan as I am, requesting a modkill at this point isn't too great an idea. Modkills are supposed to end the day... at least according to the rule text. Always better to lynch than leave it to a modkill, as it leaves more to look over the next day.

I'm starting to sour on Yangus. One post says very little in the way of anything except "Whoops, I was wrong on Ned". Really needs to post more, and I'm a lot less willing to let it go now. His little Excel/Excal thing raises eyebrows, as speculating on anyone's identity (other than mine >.>) is pretty WIFOMy and generally pointless.

Queenie seems a bit scattershot, but generally agree with her points. Still giving her the benefit of the doubt.

Miyagi needs to post more and STOP POSTING IN CHARACTER. Clear arguments are much better than keeping to flavor.

Dude and Crow are on my good side.

[Excel]

Whoa, ok. Let's get this straight. I did not ask for Khan to be modkilled.

Khan posted a whopping 1,300 words in a row. That's 1,000 words over the 300 word limit. I had no way of knowing whether or not the mod would enforce the rules of the game, so I thought it was perfectly fair to ask. You'll note that what I said was
 

Mod?

I wasn't requesting a modkill, I was asking for clarification, just like Khan himself was doing here:

A point of the utmost importance has occurred to me during my meditations: both the foul fiend Death and the little queen are due to feel the wrath of mod in a mere hour and a half from now. The absence of the former finally struck me as odd, which led to this grand realisation.

For Khan to whinge about this is pretty hypocritical indeed, considering he did exactly the same thing on day 1.

Anyway none of that is especially relevant to finding scum, but I just wanted to clarify the point that I didn't ask for any modkills, and I certainly didn't do any more than Khan himself did. For him to complain is hypocritical; it's perfectly fair to ask what the mod is going to do when there has been a breach of the rules. In this instance the mod chose not to modkill, as was the case when I posted late on day 1, for which I was thankful. So let's move on.

<->

there is no comparison to Mr. Flanders as to why he is the superior target, which is symbolised most beautifully in the lack of the revote.

I said I'd read through and post about Ned if I had time, but I didn't. Don't go counting minutes between, because frankly I had other things to do too. I spent most of my mafia time constructing posts about Queen, and when I realised my argument against her was wrong, she looked ok, so I unvoted her and hammered Ned (as you claimed you were going to do anyway!)

What I find unbelievable is that you're still making a thing over the fact that I simply unvoted Queen rather than voted for Ned! How is this a distinction worth making? Your point is crazy. I've already said why it's ridiculous. I'm not going to explain it all again. Unvoting Queen hammered Ned, voting for him would have been pointless. The end.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Miyagi not see need talk of people Miyagi think is not scummy. Miyagi only talk of people Miyagi think is scum, or think need be more clear.

##UNVOTE: Khan now have answer Miyagi questions, Miyagi satisfied.

---

Looking at relevant discussion, Miyagi notice four thing:

A] Argument between Excel-san and Khan-san over trifle.
B] Seems be little progress.
C] Death now also confirm town.
D] Yangus-san not contribute to anything.

Yangus-san come in second day, then make quick comment that need not respond to Elizabeth accusation much, that Excel-san feels off and that Khan-san may "outsmarting" self.

##VOTE: Yangus

Miyagi not satisfied. Yangus-san should comment on current state of affairs, not say someone maybe suspicious but not follow through. Miyagi also noting Yangus-san only voting Serling as jokes, then Elizabeth when people looking Elizabeth, then Ned when people on Ned train. Only has vote in solid case. Not pursue case of his own much, but join bandwagon.

Miyagi feel this good choice for lynch.

---

Not to fall victim to own contradiction, Miyagi consider case on Khan-san. Not see argument of little content. Khan-san Say Lots when Speak, and active pursue of progress. Whether progress for town or scum, Miyagi not can say. Miyagi watching Khan-san intense from now. Will attempt decide if Khan-san scum or town soon.

[The Dude]

Alright, so Miyagi did some responding to the concerns presented by Crow and I, here in this post: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg38000#msg38000

I think my main problem with this shit is the extent to which he clings, clings like a… fucking, scrabbling little marmot, to the idea that lurker-hunting is somehow an evil. Not to mention that he now says:

Miyagi problem with Elizabeth because she say nothing of relevant. Not because she not there.

Which doesn’t jive at all with his third (I think) post, where he says that if Queenie shows up (in other words, stops lurking), he doesn’t believe that she’s the best choice for a lynch anymore.

Then there’s the fact of Miyagi’s sayin’ that he doesn’t agree with people saying Khan’s low on the content end of things. Uh. You mean you disagree with… your fucking self, man?

For all that Khan-san saying during sudden death, little of Khan-san words have value. He Speak Lots but Say Little.

I guess I’m willing to chalk this up to an admission of your own mistakenness, a public declaration of changing your mind, but at the same time I’m gonna remember it as one of those fucking times when your obtuse fucking communication got in the way of fucking clarity, man.

Miyagi’s most recent post does make me think a bit more of him, I’ll admit right now. He’s at least briefly addressing the issues, fucking, du jour, which I respect. And I’ve mentioned before that Yangus skeeves me out. Still can’t shake my feelings about Miyagi, and for now the vote stays and I encourage people to join me, but I’m also looking around for other signs of scum.

Alright, now, I’m not fucking fantastic at math, as if you couldn’t guess, but how would 3 scum put us in LYLO right now? There’s eight of us, so assuming we lynch one of the good guys and then the planet eaters get off a successful nightkill, doesn’t that put us at 3-town/3-scum? You know, not enough for the scum to lynch on their own? When Khan first mentioned that we’re assured right now of having two scum I just assumed someone would correct him, but now Ash is going “oh hey man yeah good thinking must be two scum.” Does somebody feel like correcting my math? Or… is Ash’s eagerness to present the idea of a merely two-scum situation as potentially scummy as I think it might fucking be?

Looking over things. More to come this afternoon some time.