Anonyrandomafia: Game over (Scum win)

[Mr. Miyagi]

Mr Miyagi is town vanilla. Have no role, is unfortunate.

Miyagi looking at Ash + The Dude combo. Because Khan and Crow so active already, is easy overlook others. Now, Miyagi look good and hard, and has feeling these two work together. Not understand why everyone think The Dude is town.

Someone explain please for Miyagi understand?

[The Dude]

Maybe explain why you think I'm not town, man. You can't just ask other people to do your work for you. That's, fucking... yeah, that's mainly my point, man. How fucking scummy is that to propose nothing but "I think 'x' is scum" and then act as if the burden of proof is on everyone else to fucking make your argument for you -- or just reject the argument now before you've had to fucking go out on a limb with any attacks yourself. I... shit, man, as if I didn't suspect you enough for the half-hearted way you've been participating, now you come out with this? More than ever, man, you look like a planet eater to me.

As for my role, I'm just fucking Vanilla Town. The claim I'm looking to hear, though, is who the fuck our Cop is. The flip of a Miller, at least, strongly suggests that we have one. And since everyone else has claimed Vanilla Town, well... shit. Come on, Excel. Who've you investigated?

[Khan Noonian Singh]

Curse the heavens, I've let myself get distracted and now I have a half-written speech and no time to finish it off in (saved elsewhere for now). I shall not be gone for too long, mayhaps six hours at most. I suspect this will painfully miss out on much discussion, as were we all around at this time yesterday.

To condense beyond much use, I am still primarily looking at Mr. Ash, Mr. Miyagi and Miss Excel. While I expect to find the traitorous pair between these three, I shall at least consider all possible pairs and will not blind myself to "The Dude" or the tin man, though even now I can't see a strong case to either.

I'm a little worried that Excel's just been gifted a cop claim. She was around when the claiming started, so why not say anything then than wait until everyone else has claimed? Not that she, you know, can't be the cop, but after playing a 'wait and see' strategy basically all game this still doesn't sit well. I'll have to see what she has to say before commenting further. History teaches us from the previous anonymous game that we should approach this with at least some caution.

[Excel]

Looks like we're on our own. Vanilla here also. The miller was a red herring.

Ash, may I hear why you think I'm working with Miyagi/Khan? I understand you think that my vote on Yangus was opportunistic, but why those two teams in particular please.

Crow:

(and clearly not having read through the posts which already dealt with the LYLO conditions earlier)

it was a spur of the moment thing; what he said sounded like it might have merit. I was half way through a post about it when the day got hammered. By you. While there was discussion going on.

Yangus didn't hammer Miyagi now, and he could have. Are both scum? If he's town, I don't see why he wouldn't just place his vote on Miyagi. I hope I'm right on this.

Isn't that WIFOM? Doesn't the same argument also apply to town OR scum Miyagi?
Isn't your reason for hammering.. really dodgy?
Why did you end the day like that?

Ninja'd by Khan. Hmph.

[Khan Noonian Singh]

Oh. Okay. More cred for that I must admit, Excel.

[The Dude]

I'm really looking in the direction of Khan/Excel, Khan/Miyagi or Miyagi/Excel, with Yangus' flip. I'll reiterate again that Excel's vote was perfect scum placement. With questionable behavior and lurkerness throughout, I really go back to the argument I made on Day 1. She rode out the day, used the ol' "I'm not scum I'm just crazy" excuse and grabbed what credibility she could from the hammer. Day 2 was scattershot, and both times she only really came alive during sudden death.

And while I'm at it, this post of Ash's makes me feel like he's a probable planet eater partner for the old man. First there's the proposition of three possible scum teams with... not much in the way, as far as I can tell, of specific criteria for linking them. It also doesn't help that 1/3 of his total scum guess there is someone I see as a solid fucking townie (Khan), and another 1/3 is the person who logically seems to have to be our Cop (that would be Excel, and I continue to await her claim with fucking eagerness). The other 1/3 (Miyagi) seems almost to be thrown in for the sake of appearing to be a decent townie, Miyagi having been up on the block yesterday. Especially because all he says about Miyagi...

With Miyagi... I don't want to play the percentages game, because the odds aren't that good on it anyway. But we know now that Day 1 was town/town... Could Day 2 have also been town/town? I'm torn on how to approach this. I'm gonna have to read over both Excel and Miyagi (Khan too).

Okay, so in his scum-pairing schematic he throws out Miyagi as pretty likely to be scum, right? But then instead of continuing down that path in the actual, you know, "evidence" or "support" part of his fucking post he acts all squeamish about voting for Miyagi for reasons that have entirely to do with incredibly specious meta-concerns. And as far as people he hasn't pegged as likely scum...

Khan... I honestly don't know. I'll admit this is just ol' gut feeling.

Dude and Crow... we've been giving them a lot of town credit, and rightfully so. But... do you think that we could find scum here? I doubt I'll find much support for this reading over the topic, but... all cards and possibilities on the table.

Against one he keeps playing the gut feeling card, because he clearly doesn't have anything to actually say. And then he says that me and Crow are rightfully given a lot of town credit... so maybe they're planet eaters specifically because they seem like they aren't?

I understand the impulse to get all ideas out on the table at this stage of the game, but this? This... these aren't ideas. This whole post reeks of scum evasion and tortured fucking scum-logic, and I'm personally feeling confident in my Ash/Mr. Miyagi scum team right now.

Aaaaaand ninja'd. That... huh. Interesting fucking thing, that Excel's not the Cop. And... even though it means we have no cop, and means that I clearly jumped the gun putting out the idea myself, why... wow. Yeah, I have a hard time seeing why Excel wouldn't have claimed Cop right there, were she a planet eater. Red herring Miller. Huh.

Yeah. I'm still as convinced as I was before.

[Crow T. Robot]

Khan: It satisfies me, pretty much, yes.

Excel: What, the posts prior to that detailing the reasons we were not in LYLO and thus not instantly losing with a mislynch weren't clear enough? The day was prolongued to see if Yangus had great insight and to hear from Miyagi and yourself. Yangus didn't turn out a cop who fingered Dude, as I worried, and both he and you were talking about matters that showed you haven't been up to date on the thread. I'm not about to apologize for not letting spur of the moment decisions end the day for us all. Bottom line, I voted exactly the way I originally did after my query was not answered to my satisfaction, and Miyagi's defense made me feel better about him.

Not everything hypothetical is WIFOM.

More thoughts in a few hours when I'm freer.

[Excel]

I'm a little worried that Excel's just been gifted a cop claim. She was around when the claiming started, so why not say anything then than wait until everyone else has claimed? Not that she, you know, can't be the cop, but after playing a 'wait and see' strategy basically all game this still doesn't sit well. I'll have to see what she has to say before commenting further. History teaches us from the previous anonymous game that we should approach this with at least some caution.

To be perfectly honest, I delayed my claim intentionally, until everyone else had claimed. My intention was that scum would be unable to fakeclaim cop when there was somebody left who hadn't claimed (especially when the miller points to the likelihood of a real cop).
If scum had fakeclaimed cop after we'd all claimed vanilla, we'd be pretty screwed - I'd be willing to call it instant fail, as we'd have had no reason not to go along with with the cop's findings. Game over.

So I hope you'll understand that I delayed my claim in the best interests of town.
No doubt scum will be incredibly annoyed with me, as I may have just denied them an easy win ^^

Ahh ninjas everywhere. Posting then reading.

[The Dude]

And come to think of it, the red herring Miller suggests a scum Rolecop to me. More of a potential trap for scum than town, since it could make a scum Rolecop think they were dealing with a town Cop even if it weren't true. It makes some sense, given the Queen-Doctor's death last night. Seems like it'd be fairly easy for scum to have tried to build a case against her instead of killing her -- I feel like there are town-seeming people around right now who would have been more opportune night kills had they not some known the Queen was our Doc, you know? I don't know if this changes anything, or even makes sense to others, but it came to me so I guess I thought I'd throw it out there.

[Excel]

Dude: It makes sense for scum to have a powerrole, and if they'd had a roleblocker then they wouldn't have needed to kill Queen. So rolecop makes a fair bit of sense there. If that were true, we'd be looking squarely at Crow based on yesteday's voting record, and anyone else who wanted to lynch Queen yesterday (don't have time to check that right now). Interesting theory.

Nothing else I feel the need to comment on immediately, so bed time for me.

Ja mata ashita!

[Mr. Miyagi]

I watch The Dude for the following reasons:

Day 1

The Dude begins with a vote on the Queen, right here. His next post is concluding we're getting rid of Queen, and asking if "Does anyone have a problem with getting rid of Queen Liz right now?" Serling nicely re-construed that sentence but we're taking it as it is written. The Queen makes one misstep and he immediately concludes she's going to be lynched, going so far as asking people whether they would mind.

I can only see that as getting people to get rid of her by looking at the case against her and her complete lack of defense.

He posts this line later on:

I've gotta think Excel is one of these Planet Eater fucks.

but doesn't really pursue Excel any more than just that. Instead, he keeps his vote on the Queen, ignoring Excel's bandwagoning and opportunism.

scrolling back a bit I also dig up this:

I'm a little un-fucking-nerved by Khan's inex-fucking-plicable lack of placing Excel on his list of suspicion, man

where he's bothered that Khan doesn't suspect Excel. What is his obsession with Excel?

In this post he claims developing theories and that he'd expand on them later. I see no such thing happening over the course of the game. At all.

He opens the day with a relatively fucking detailed and complex argument against Khan

here he is misrepresenting my case by calling it "detailed" and "complex", which I already explained was nothing of the sort and you read too much into it. Still, he's intentionally painting me here as abandoning a good case in favor of an easy case.

During the second sudden death, he again disappears, his conviction to see me lynched from the start still standing.

And now, again, he cozies up with Excel as he's done all game. He's mentioned her so many times and tied her with scum pairings a few times and whatnot, but doesn't actually see through anything at all.

And this is why I want to know why he seems Town to you guys, because I absolutely cannot see how this man has been the very personification of a Townie when he has such quirks.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Dude: It makes sense for scum to have a powerrole, and if they'd had a roleblocker then they wouldn't have needed to kill Queen. So rolecop makes a fair bit of sense there. If that were true, we'd be looking squarely at Crow based on yesteday's voting record, and anyone else who wanted to lynch Queen yesterday (don't have time to check that right now). Interesting theory.

Nothing else I feel the need to comment on immediately, so bed time for me.

Ja mata ashita!

Just to add to this faulty logic: Queen explicitly stated she was roleblocked. She had no reason to claim so if it wasn't so, so assume scum roleblocker.

[The Dude]

I watch The Dude for the following reasons:

Day 1

The Dude begins with a vote on the Queen, right here. His next post is concluding we're getting rid of Queen, and asking if "Does anyone have a problem with getting rid of Queen Liz right now?" Serling nicely re-construed that sentence but we're taking it as it is written. The Queen makes one misstep and he immediately concludes she's going to be lynched, going so far as asking people whether they would mind.

I can only see that as getting people to get rid of her by looking at the case against her and her complete lack of defense.

Serling's analysis of my line was correct, man. I was trying to gauge whether anybody felt like the Queen wasn't scummy at that point in time. Since she, at that point, was a lurker and seemed like a planet eater. And hey, whaddya know, when she started participating later in the game, I didn't think she seemed that scummy anymore. This is a massive stretch of an argument, man. Attacking this kind of semantic shit never comes up profitable, in my experience.

He posts this line later on:

I've gotta think Excel is one of these Planet Eater fucks.

but doesn't really pursue Excel any more than just that. Instead, he keeps his vote on the Queen, ignoring Excel's bandwagoning and opportunism.

scrolling back a bit I also dig up this:

I'm a little un-fucking-nerved by Khan's inex-fucking-plicable lack of placing Excel on his list of suspicion, man

where he's bothered that Khan doesn't suspect Excel. What is his obsession with Excel?

My obsession with Excel? You mean at the point during the game in which she was lurking hardcore? And then the point when she did that "vote for someone at a critical point in the voting breakdown right before disappearing for a large-ish point of time? I suspected her when she was scum-seeming, and when she started to participate more my suspicions were allayed a lot. And hey, now she could've easily fakeclaimed Cop and really fucked us over, had she been scum. So what's your point?

In this post he claims developing theories and that he'd expand on them later. I see no such thing happening over the course of the game. At all.

Man, I've been completely forthright with all of my thought processes all game and done my best to cover a broad range of topics while still honing in on those I think are scum. What else can I do?

He opens the day with a relatively fucking detailed and complex argument against Khan

here he is misrepresenting my case by calling it "detailed" and "complex", which I already explained was nothing of the sort and you read too much into it. Still, he's intentionally painting me here as abandoning a good case in favor of an easy case.[/quote]

I... think you were, man. At least in that your original case was one of your own construction and was significantly bolder than the following, much simpler case to make against Yangus.

During the second sudden death, he again disappears, his conviction to see me lynched from the start still standing.

Can't be around all the time, man. You've had spotty presence too and defended it in the usual sane way. This seems like another grasping argument.

And now, again, he cozies up with Excel as he's done all game. He's mentioned her so many times and tied her with scum pairings a few times and whatnot, but doesn't actually see through anything at all.

Addressed this.

Sorry that was a bit more curt than I usually like, I have to run for a while. I'll be back tonight. My opinions haven't changed thus far and are pretty clear.

[Crow T. Robot]

Okay, thoughts.

I just don't think Excel is scum. There are many reasons either way, but a simple case makes me believe her (naive) innocence. Claiming cop last, without opposition, would likely win the game for scum. The Dude's post pretty much gives Excel a perfect way to fakeclaim, and since we believe there is a pair of scum (for excellent reasons), Excel would not have to be alone in this. It's possible that scum are afraid of such a move, perhaps due to the way Excel had been playing, but then, why not have the other scum do it? After all, Excel's post shows that she had thought of this. Had she been paired with another player, the idea would likely get circulated. I have to believe, given that we must make some assumptions in the total absence of investigative roles, that this clears Excel.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg38382#msg38382
The Dude:

I feel like there are town-seeming people around right now who would have been more opportune night kills had they not some known the Queen was our Doc, you know?

I wonder. Queen softclaimed on day 1, as you'll recall, and claimed being roleblocked during night 1. We have no reason to believe she lied. It might have made certain sense to take out a (possible, in case she was lying to save her skin) power role. Still, debating NKs leads to failure. We simply don't know and can tie ourselves in knots guessing.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg38383#msg38383
Excel:

Dude: It makes sense for scum to have a powerrole, and if they'd had a roleblocker then they wouldn't have needed to kill Queen. So rolecop makes a fair bit of sense there.

Yes BUT remember that our dead, confirmed townie claimed roleblockage. She could have lied, but she hadn't about having a role. Why lie about the other part? Not impossible, no, but such lies hurt town and everyone knows that.

Also. Scum could conceivably have both a roleblocker and a rolecop. That's just one possible explanation; with no cops, scum might not have had a godfather.

If that were true, we'd be looking squarely at Crow based on yesteday's voting record, and anyone else who wanted to lynch Queen yesterday

I've been on our Queen from day 1, way before I could have conceivably 'copped' her if I were your hypothetical scum rolecop. I've also been fairly obvious about it. I mean, I have no excuse for confusing a suspiciously-playing townie for scum. I've done it with Yangus and Death as well, although I'd like to see someone who hadn't been wrong this game about someone yet.

Moving onwards. I do have a strange concern, and need more time to put it in words. Give me a few.

[Crow T. Robot]

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg38327#msg38327

This post by Ash bothers me. That it's the only Ash post today also bothers me, as does what we saw of him near the end of day 2.

Sorry about my last post of yesterday, I got Ninja'd*Crazy Number. When I saw the vote I just clicked post as fast as I could without going back to revise.

Contrast with said end of day 2 post: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg38261#msg38261

In fact, this post showed up within sixty seconds of my hammer which ended the sudden death mode. I only took us into sudden death to hear from people, and to get Yangus's explanation, if any, for his bizarre vote out of the blue/prolonged disappearance. The person I stated wanting to hear the most aside from Yangus, originally, was Ash. I wasn't alone in this.

So why wouldn't Ash make a brief 'finally here, reading/writing a post' notice like we got from Miyagi, Excel and Yangus? If he knew we wanted to hear from him, having it would have ensured my waiting. I specified I wouldn't keep sudden death beyond two hours at the most, and we were approaching the one hour mark. Yangus and Excel seemed to be on the verge of voting, given their posts.

I suppose it could be claimed that you got ninja'd a lot and couldn't read them all BUT you posted within a minute of my hammer. I can't reconcile checking the thread thoroughly enough for day-ending events and missing the intent to end it from Excel and Yangus.

At this time, I would just like to hear an explanation from Ash.

[Ash]

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg38327#msg38327

This post by Ash bothers me. That it's the only Ash post today also bothers me, as does what we saw of him near the end of day 2.

Sorry about my last post of yesterday, I got Ninja'd*Crazy Number. When I saw the vote I just clicked post as fast as I could without going back to revise.

Contrast with said end of day 2 post: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg38261#msg38261

In fact, this post showed up within sixty seconds of my hammer which ended the sudden death mode. I only took us into sudden death to hear from people, and to get Yangus's explanation, if any, for his bizarre vote out of the blue/prolonged disappearance. The person I stated wanting to hear the most aside from Yangus, originally, was Ash. I wasn't alone in this.

So why wouldn't Ash make a brief 'finally here, reading/writing a post' notice like we got from Miyagi, Excel and Yangus? If he knew we wanted to hear from him, having it would have ensured my waiting. I specified I wouldn't keep sudden death beyond two hours at the most, and we were approaching the one hour mark. Yangus and Excel seemed to be on the verge of voting, given their posts.

I suppose it could be claimed that you got ninja'd a lot and couldn't read them all BUT you posted within a minute of my hammer. I can't reconcile checking the thread thoroughly enough for day-ending events and missing the intent to end it from Excel and Yangus.

At this time, I would just like to hear an explanation from Ash.

If I had the psychic capacity to know you'd just up and hammer, I would have. Given the amount of people clamoring for my thoughts, I figured I'd had the 15-30 minutes to actually post something. People looked like they weren't ready to end it anytime soon, and when I started the post Yangus hadn't posted yet, so I just went into posting without announcing my presence. If you WANT my excuse, I had mistakenly calculated end of Day 2 come at Noon that day. Between 6 and 9 I was getting ready and on the bus to go to work, and I got to work at aroun 9:30. It just came at the worst possible time for me.

As far as speculating roles... I'd thought Miyagi was Cop when he came out so strongly after Khan beginning Day 2. I thought he'd nailed scum that night, after being not quite all there Day 1 and then BAM on start Day 2. It's how a good cop works. When he pulled off I lost my bearings, and I can see now that I was wrong in my assessment of the situation. That's why I turned around against Miyagi that day, and as the day went on it became less likely to me that he was a cop doubting his sanity. If he wasn't cop I figured there was a high chance he was scum, but I had to pace my argument just in case.

For Excel's non-claim of cop... it's just as easy for scum to do it for town credit. If it took 1 townie to misvote to lose, I would say it's perfect sense for scum to claim cop. But with TWO townies to misvote, it's a lot tougher and the initial kneejerk that could be earned with a scum claiming cop might not be worth it. We've already had two sudden deaths and I like to think we're going to be more cautious and look things over more closely before we commit to a vote.

I'm seeing some decent teamwork between Excel and Crow here today... Crow coming to Excel's defense and all... And who ended both days? Excel and Crow. I think there's something worth pursuing here. We've suspected her, but written Excel off a lot, and Crow has been the prototypical townie. It's a wonderful, classic example of a scumteam.

[Crow T. Robot]

And yet, you offer no explanation or excuse for how you spotted my day-ending post and made yours within a minute of it appearing. It does feel like a moderate psychic capacity.

Also, people looked like they weren't ready to end it anytime soon?

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg38256#msg38256
Yangus:

the only reason I'm holding back my vote is to give people some time to talk, and some time to ask me questions.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg38258#msg38258
Miyagi:

The only thing holding back your vote is allowing people to talk? You yourself aren't really talking, even though you're the one on the block. What, intend to quickhammer me if someone declares intent to hammer you?

Excel rapidly wavering between 'vote sealed' and not being sure all of a sudden:
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg38252#msg38252
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg38257#msg38257

So, could things have gone down as you suggest? Possibly so. But it raises my suspicions, and that you quote my post and then not address all the concerns I had there re: you? That looks bad to me. That you have suddenly picked me as scummy for having said concerns? Even worse.

I'm seeing some decent teamwork between Excel and Crow here today... Crow coming to Excel's defense and all... And who ended both days? Excel and Crow.

You... have got some nerve to say that. Khan announced intent to end Day 1 the same way Excel did. You yourself announced intent to hammer Yangus Day 2, when I did. In fact, if you had done so, who here doesn't think that Yangus wouldn't have stopped holding back his vote, since the time for talk was clearly over, and voted Miyagi? Now, if you had claimed that Miyagi were scum, and I somehow saved him, I suppose I could see some semblance of a case (and defended myself against it, since no such partnership exists). But no, you ignore Miyagi altogether and go for me and Excel.

I also hate to rely on the opinions of others, preferring to make my own, but it seems from a second perusal of today's post-roleclaim posts that I'm not the only one holding the opinion that Excel looks better, not worse, for her actions today. I am the only one who decided to clear her of suspicion altogether, but that it only because in the absence of investigative roles I have to start eliminating suspects, since I have two scum to choose out of five people. Assume, make ass out of u and me, yes I know. I still believe in the process of elimination.

[Ash]

And yet, you offer no explanation or excuse for how you spotted my day-ending post and made yours within a minute of it appearing. It does feel like a moderate psychic capacity.

Uh, the most recent post is at the top of the preview pile when you get ninja'd.

You're trying to paint me in a bad light because I announced my intent to hammer? Why? Is it bad that I would announce my intent? A simple "No, don't hammer" could stop that. You're first saying that I should announce my presence to ensure that people will allow me to post, then you're saying it wouldn't have mattered because Yangus would've just ended the day anyway. What was the best course of action then?

You're saying it was "long since over"? Looking at timestamps, Yangus reappeared just under a half hour before you hammered him. The final exchange you're saying ended the discussion for good all happened in the 10 minutes before you hammered him. I call that an awful rush, especially if you're waiting for someone. Makes a good case against me not showing up the next day doesn't it?

[Crow T. Robot]

Let's see what we have here. An evasion to start with. Yes, we all know about the last post being visible when you try to post yourself. However, you said in your first post today that you didn't intend to post yet, and just saw the hammer and sent your post without going over it. So since you weren't yet posting, you saw my hammer post by means of checking the thread periodically? If so, I have to wonder (and did), how you didn't see the stated intentions of others to vote and end the day.

In your first reply, you addressed only the second part. Now, you only did the first, thus ignoring what I brought up as evidence.

It also must be said that I didn't put you in a particularly bad light with my post containing questions about a seeming inconsistency with your stance late day 2/early day 3. It was not particularly offensive nor rude, and I'd dare say pretty generic for any post in mafia requiring clarifications. You are putting yourself in a bad light by refusing to address my points directly and by turning this personal by suddenly discovering my supposed scumminess. Your theory on a pair of myself and Excel, for example, relies only on ending the days. If you had truly believed that, I would expect you to say as much when you showed up on day 3, not long after, once I found something to be concerned with about you. If it instead has to do with not considering Excel a valid target today, I have not seen you direct your eyes towards Khan or The Dude, who seem to agree, if not as strongly as I do. And have, in fact, said it before I had a chance to. In other words, I am hardly pioneering this wondrous new concept of an innocent-but-misguided Excel.

Your paragraph on your intent to hammer and my supposed issues with it is hard to understand. What I said was that Yangus was intending to vote (and he only had one choice there, let's remember, due to sudden death) once discussion were to come to a close and everyone commented. Had you commented, and stated your desire to hammer him, it shouldn't have to be spelled out what his action would do. No amount of 'no, don't hammer plz' would do a bit of good there. Now that we've went over the basic facts, here, let me repeat: no, hammering Yangus wouldn't be scummy. However, it is hypocritical to call me scummy for doing something you yourself fully intended to if you are being truthful. And being hypocritical doesn't look good to me.

You're saying it was "long since over"?

My apologies. Your quote implies I said those words. It is quite possible that I had, but that did not happen within the last page. Please clarify this, perhaps with a link/a quote that has more context. I cannot respond to this paragraph without knowing just what you refer to.

[Khan Noonian Singh]

I return once more to the belly of the beast.

Despite the fact that Miss Excel's gambit initially looked very good to me, ponderances have led me to an interesting logical conundrum that has yet to be asked and requires answering:

To be perfectly honest, I delayed my claim intentionally, until everyone else had claimed. My intention was that scum would be unable to fakeclaim cop when there was somebody left who hadn't claimed (especially when the miller points to the likelihood of a real cop).

This makes sense if and only if you had reason to believe that there would be no cop. If there was a cop then it doesn't matter when you claim, as any fake claim gets counter-claimed and we can actually get somewhere. Nor am I convinced that such a fake-claim need be among the last made, or even after the actual cop. Yet you somehow looked at the set up, spotted the even higher odds of a cop by way of the miller, and came to the conclusion that the prudent thing to do would be to delay your own claim on the assumption that there may be no cop, and assumedly also the lack of other town power roles that could have served to help us or be fake-claimed against us, not knowing how long it may be before everyone was to show up.

Pray tell how you reached this decision.

(I do realize the benefits turned down by declining a gifted cop claim, and I don't really believe that you edited your role-claim post to suit my worries voiced just minutes before on account of just how soon after your speech followed mine, but I don't understand where your reasoning has come from, and I do worry that hanging back for roleclaiming for so long is often a traitorous play to fit their claim to as much information as possible. So whilst I can envision why a traitor might turn down the cop claim in that [unexpected] situation, I cannot as yet envision why an innocent would arrive at the logic you've posited. Enlighten me.)

[Sierra]

Current votecount:

...No one's voted!

There are 26.5 hours remaining.

With six alive it takes four to lynch.

[Khan Noonian Singh]

My pardon once more. The hunt for food left me temporarily afflicted by the condition known as 'socialising'. Thankfully (unfortunately given the time past?) this has not pushed me any further behind the discussion. I shall now press on as long as it takes.

[Khan Noonian Singh]

I'm having a bit of trouble actually working my way through the last bunch of points, so I'm going to start by leading off my concerns as they stand in brief. At least one of the three is innocent, so progress needs to be made one way or another.

Mr. Ash even yet holds on to an essentially supportless argument on myself. I would say that the language has toned down ("I honestly don't know."), but mere breaths previously had listed me as party to his top two traitor pairs. I've still yet to see or feel any reasoning why this was done innocently. Ended up on rather similar views to my own by the end of day 2 except for the obvious flip, which isn't so much the mark of a traitor so much as it is kind of creepy. Then there's this mess now that has him at the forefront. I'm going to have to look through that separately.

Mr. Miyagi hasn't relieved my concerns in any meaningful manner. I'm actually not sure what I'm looking for, but that serial monomania delayed him needing to have opinions on everyone meaningfully for far too long, and each time he jumped from one person to another it was the first he'd have ever said about them (with the exception of me, but even then without great context beforehand). With this being an easy way for traitors to tailor arguments to fit their purposes, I can't see how "I haven't commented on the things I haven't commented on because I don't think I need to." was meant to fill me with any sense of confidence. Welcome to the game as of the end of day 2, really.

Miss Excel still doesn't really exist. That's the huge thing for me. Smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors, and so little in the way of actual substance. Day 1 had the super lurk followed by the focus on the little queen. Day 2 sets up a line of mostly neutral-to-slightly-positive reads on everyone with a 'wait and see before I act' attitude before wasting a day fervently arguing a triviality, and eventually jumping on the ripened train on Mr. Yangus when he was a clear easy target. Now today we have delaying roleclaiming and the claim behind doing it being the closest thing I've seen in the game to an outright slip. Only angle offered at all appears to be some weird minor thing on the tin man. Something to be slowly convinced of before jumping on the next train?

So great, we have someone who draws views from the aether, someone with cripplingly slow views until the end of day 2, and someone with minimal views ever presented even now.

I'm actually most convinced of Mr. Ash / Miss Excel at this point. Mr. Miyagi / Miss Excel is probably secondary, although I've lost track of why they were an obviously good combo and why Mr. Ash / Mr. Miyagi were obviously a bad match.

I need that response from Miss Excel whenever she's next on pretty badly.

[Excel]

Khan/Ash - I could have claimed cop and instantly won the game for scum were I a planet-eater.
I'm not saying I should be above suspicion, but if I were scum then I most certainly would have done that.

Ash: the 'town cred' I get from claiming vanilla is nowhere near as good as the chance od instant-win from an irrefutable cop-claim.

Khan: how did I know there was no cop? Easy - I didn't. But this game was following the same setup as AnonySciFi mafia, where there was also no cop despite there being a miller/godfather; I decided to account for the possibility that there would be no cop, and wait it out.
In the alternate case scenario a cop would show up, I'd look bad for claiming late, but the cop would be legit because I delayed and would help us win.
It's a win/win for town.

Yes BUT remember that our dead, confirmed townie claimed roleblockage. She could have lied, but she hadn't about having a role. Why lie about the other part? Not impossible, no, but such lies hurt town and everyone knows that.

Ah, forgot about that. True, true.

<----->

Khan: you seem pretty convinved that I'm scum, despite admitting that I could have fakeclaimed cop and gotten away with it unopposed.
You say I focused on the Queen - lots of people did.
You say Yangus was an easy target - that's because he looked really bad. You yourself said he was viable for lynch "as even if he is innocent then it really has hurt us"

Now today we have delaying roleclaiming and the claim behind doing it being the closest thing I've seen in the game to an outright slip.

Exactly how is preventing scum fakeclaiming cop and ending the game 'an outright slip'?[/u]

Khan's doing his best to make me look pretty bad. Scummy or misguided? Hrm.

[Khan Noonian Singh]

Okay, Miss Excel's reply is distinctly underwhelming and I'm finding it less likely that I won't be voting for her. Not to let that dominate the floor, more on the other two first.

Mr. Miyagi, other points potentially besides, there are two queries that have returned to me that I'd like answered. Apologies in advance if you already have done, I'll admit I've been far from exhaustive in checking your posts for these.

1) Your argument on Mr. Yangus that I called out as being similarly applicable to yourself, except worse. The only thing I can find about that really is:

I'm not strictly worse than Yangus in that aspect, but I've consistently tried to point at whoever I felt is scum and direct attention to the people I believe deserve attention, especially by going through with my words and voting on them, whereas Yangus has not done the same. Rather, he has not even commented on any particular case today. Combined with his behaviour from the previous day I feel I have a pretty good reason to see him lynched, because I am getting various sorts of "Might be scum but could be town" reads from everyone else.

And just saying that you weren't strictly worse doesn't make it true. Having checked back I see that you do actually refer more to Mr. Flanders than I have been giving you credit for, but Mr. Yangus actually made a rather detailed post on Mr. Flanders that was really rather convincing on its own, and your points on the little queen were more or less the same as his. Day 2 yes, Mr. Yangus played terribly and you at least had a case out before your swap, but what about this day 1 material that you so balanced on? Why do you think his actions were remarkable then and yet your own were not?

2) I've lost it, but did you ever answer "The Dude"'s query about your massive turnabout on me from "speaks much, says little" to "says much when he speaks"? I mean those specific claims, not your overall change of heart on me.