Anonyrandomafia: Game over (Scum win)

[Khan Noonian Singh]

Mr. Ash just plain looks bad. I can't say that the tin man's exploring an avenue I would have called major (sudden death was a mess for way more than that), but tugging on that has caused really bizarre things to leak out. I can't even begin to work out where the tin man / Miss Excel claim has suddenly sprung from. The issue that is covered that I do feel worries me is not the timing but the hammer declaration. Can you not see how seeing that would force Mr. Yangus's hand to vote for Mr. Miyagi? If we were to assume that Mr. Miyagi is innocent, then after that lynch we lose day 3 to a discussion on Mr. Yangus, more than likely resulting in us losing.

I can't say the prospect thrills me when Mr. Miyagi was fishing for material on "The Dude" but I'm still currently staring at a Mr. Ash / Miss Excel partnership, with the assumed intent that Mr. Ash takes the fall and Miss Excel makes it through based on his day 3 angle on her and the roleclaiming providing credibility. Assuming that a traitorous Mr. Ash was attempting to panic someone into ending sudden death, it seems far too risky if his partner was Mr. Miyagi, as Mr. Yangus was most likely to be volatile. Thus Mr. Miyagi / Miss Excel does indeed seem more likely than Mr. Ash / Mr. Miyagi. Miss Excel has been oddly supportive of Mr. Miyagi without explaining it (because that would involve explaining something), and Mr. Miyagi has been mostly hands-off.

[Khan Noonian Singh]

It's late, but I still really should take a go at this.

Khan/Ash - I could have claimed cop and instantly won the game for scum were I a planet-eater.

Don't try and palm me off with this. I raised my doubts immediately before you claimed vanilla that a cop claim would need to be treated with caution. Even if you gained full trust somehow, it's not like we could even trust the readings to necessarily be accurate. You have all of the attention on you trying to work out if you can be trusted or not, which in retrospect looks less comfortable than the credibility aimed for here, especially if there's a partner tie-in as the aforementioned possibility with Mr. Ash.

I'm not saying I should be above suspicion, but if I were scum then I most certainly would have done that.

"I'm not saying I should be above suspicion, but WIFOM states that I should be."

Khan: how did I know there was no cop? Easy - I didn't. But this game was following the same setup as AnonySciFi mafia, where there was also no cop despite there being a miller/godfather; I decided to account for the possibility that there would be no cop, and wait it out.
In the alternate case scenario a cop would show up, I'd look bad for claiming late, but the cop would be legit because I delayed and would help us win.
It's a win/win for town.

No, I don't buy it yet (and I referenced that game first, for what it's worth). Why would a fakeclaim need to follow your post? "The cop would be legit because [you] delayed" you say? What? And how in any way does 'I'd look suspicious' contribute to "win/win for town"? Your claim here at best looks like a bad risk for town. I'm sure there's better reason to argue against a simple comparison argument, but I cannot think of why this must fail, so I have to let this slide more than I want to.

Can anyone else explain her logic to me if it makes sense? I'd feel a lot better if someone else could at least back this stuff up. In particular the 'legit cop' concept, which I'm sure is nonsense.

Khan: you seem pretty convinced that I'm scum, despite admitting that I could have fakeclaimed cop and gotten away with it unopposed.

Without being countered, which is very different to unopposed. Again, I made it clear ahead of time that I wouldn't be following a gifted cop-claim blindly.

You say I focused on the Queen - lots of people did.

Perhaps slightly unclear, but what I meant was that you basically talked about no-one other than the little queen at all during day one.

You say Yangus was an easy target - that's because he looked really bad. You yourself said he was viable for lynch "as even if he is innocent then it really has hurt us"

That in no way addresses the timeliness of your move on to him from nowhere. Yes, he hurt us. Suspicious innocents is always bad for town as it does allow traitors to jump on without easy opposition.

You've now tried to justify the two opinions you've expressed in the game. How about justifying the stunning lack of opinions otherwise? Sitting there and just pointing at this convenient event that you concocted yourself as some ultimate form of proof of your innocence when the alternative decision wasn't even remotely as cleancut as you claim turns me off even further when you're unwilling to stand beside anything else you've done.

Now today we have delaying roleclaiming and the claim behind doing it being the closest thing I've seen in the game to an outright slip.

Exactly how is preventing scum fakeclaiming cop and ending the game 'an outright slip'?

Khan's doing his best to make me look pretty bad. Scummy or misguided? Hrm.

If you're trying to convince me of anything, do not misrepresent me. Don't even try to put words into my mouth like that. Take my words as they are. Do not disregard me outright as evil or stupid, convince me. The slip in question is this supposed foreknowledge of no cop. Not that you would have a way of knowing that as a traitor, but using the information found out after the fact to justify the actions before it when you have little to no way of having come to that conclusion before then.

The attitude, the answering of the wrong questions, pointing repeatedly to her newly-found town credibility as her stand to make, instinctively turning on the person questioning her. Combined with her almost complete lack of actual participation for the whole game, I'm getting pretty damn sure.

My vote goes to Miss Excel in the morning unless someone can point out actual flaws to me by then (it's late, after all), or doubts otherwise. I'm not certain of the Mr. Ash / Miss Excel angle, but I can imagine being pulled back to Mr. Ash instead yet.


(600 words sorry sorry sorry, nowhere to break it this time)

[Crow T. Robot]

I want Miyagi to be more active.

I also want Khan to convince the rest of us of the wisdom of picking Excel. You yourself as good as said that you were forced to look beyond the blatantly scummy-looking for the true scum on day 2. Queen, Death, Yangus, all were scummy to considerable degree and turned out town. You're asking for a defense on Excel, but none really exist beyond 'Excel fails at the mafia'. Do I want to bet the game on Excel happening to draw scum rather than town here? Convince me it is the best possible option.

We can discuss that (and hey, everyone's invited to participate) while we wait on Ash to respond to me. And to generally talk, if he has more to talk about.

The next is incredibly minor but it bugs me. Khan, you mentioned part of your previous suspicion of Ash being fueled by hostility, and being unsure if it came from the player or the character, correct? I don't believe you commented the same way on The Dude's posting style. Why?

And let's hear from The Dude as well on our options for this bleak day.

[Sierra]

Current votecount:

...No one has voted!

There are 13 hours remaining.

With six alive it takes four to lynch.

[Khan Noonian Singh]

As time passes on the matter I've grown far less certain on what I was calling a potential slip from Miss Excel, sorry. Just because I and others had not put weight into a no-cop theory doesn't mean that everyone should have ruled it out. I still see the benefit to a traitor not taking the cop claim in that position, but I can now see an innocent angle from it as well, which was the crux of the matter. It was a bizarre high-risk move to make, but no, I can't say I see it being beyond Miss Excel-logic.

I don't know Mr. Ash from his source material. It's been a long time since I've seen "The Dude"'s, but even had I not, it is still easy to see beyond all of the cursing to see what he was actually saying. With Mr. Ash, until I looked at a bunch of his posts together and saw just how over the top it was, taking one post at a time just made him look incredibly uncivil (which is worse than the aggression). With "The Dude" there was never any such ill-feeling, you know just to extract the bad language, and I thought that was clear to everyone.

Also, even being told about Mr. Ash's character hardly removed doubts about using it as a screen with which to have been uncivil, whereas "The Dude" has never hidden behind his character at all, so far as I can remember.

[Khan Noonian Singh]

I can mostly see how today will go. There are already four voices against Mr. Ash. If I am to assume that the traitors are two amongst those three, then with me, you and "The Dude" with votes on him it loses only in the case of a Mr. Miyagi / Miss Excel pairing. If it were not for the distinct possibility of that, my vote would already be on Mr. Ash.

On the other hand, we simply cannot let this run to the wire in the same manner as the first two days have. We need a hell of a lot more discussion (what, one post in the time it took me to go through my own material very slowly yesterday? One post while I sleep?), with only a quarter of the time remaining.

Miss Excel: if you are indeed innocent, then please contribute more in the way of who you think it is and why. Today you've only offered a little minor material against the tin man and implied recoil against me. Can we see a bigger picture? You've yet to suggest anyone specifically for lynching, or even people you don't think it is, let alone any thoughts on pairings. It's do or die here, so nothing should be held back.

My biggest stumbling point at the moment is seeing my way to a Mr. Ash / Mr. Miyagi pairing as "The Dude" has and the tin man seems to mostly be on.

I'll try and be on a bit at some point in the near future, but otherwise I'll be on in the hours leading to the deadline. Unless something major comes up in discussion in the meantime, I'm back to voting for Mr. Ash, as he's the only one with actions that I really can't see an innocent side to.

[Crow T. Robot]

Since you're the only other person who seems to be here, Khan, would you mind commenting on this post?

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=2205.msg38384#msg38384

You've commented on Miyagi today, and called attention to queries The Dude made towards Miyagi, but I didn't see you address his case on The Dude. Perhaps I've missed it, and if so, point me in the right direction. If not, what I ask is self-explanatory, I think.

[Khan Noonian Singh]

I can't really stick around. I can go into it in more detail later if you'd like, but in short I left it because "The Dude" had already answered its points, although yes, this doesn't preclude me from having an opinion. I disagree with at least his first points up to the Excel-obsession. He's right about his case on me being over-complicated and later about the weird logical hole about the rolecop stuff. I'm confused about the angle with Miss Excel when he's pushing for Mr. Ash / "The Dude" - I'd say it was keeping around a bad player to help lose the game for the innocents if not much need to protect her any further at this point.

[Khan Noonian Singh]

For clarity, 'he' in that discussion means Mr. Miyagi. Last sentence should read more like 'I'd say his angle would be that "The Dude" was keeping a bad player...".

[Excel]

Ok, I've spent the last couple of hours reading through the whole thread.
It's given me a whole new perspective on the game, because I've gone from looking at individual posts to looking at the strategy, playstyle and vibe of each player.

General impressions:
Dude, Khan - towny
Ash, crow - neutral
Miyagi - scum


Explanation: while playing the game till now, I've looked at each post individually, as it is posted. If I see nothing interesting I move on. However, scum check their posts individually, so this method sucks.
Reading through the whole thread tonight though, I've picked up patterns.

And the pattern is that Miyagi has been flying under the radar the whole game.
I'm not going to reference individual posts, because they're individually clean. You need to look at all of the posts and his playstyle as a whole.
They often avoid hot topics, and focus on two or three other players the whole game.
Furthermore, he kept up the flavourtext, which helped diguise his intentions.

What's most embarassing to me, is that almost everyone else (both alive and dead) has gone after Miyagi at some stage, but was usually interrupted and a train never took off. Only yesterday did it nearly occur.

Very important:
Yangus could have saved himself and killed Miyagi. Miyagi was already voting for Yangus. Yangus didn't do this though, because he was giving us discussion time. Then Crow swoops in and ends the day while people are still posting. That never sat well with me, but I didn't think about it again.
So even though Crow has seemed fairly towny for me, he'd be the logical scum partner to Miyagi, in my view.
But still, I'd rather vote Miyagi first, in case I'm wrong on Crow.

Anyway, not a lot of time left, and I need to sleep soon. I'm going to wait for some views from others first though obviously, but I can't stay up all night.

Commenting on ninjas shortly.

[Excel]

Khan; I'm glad you've come around to seeing my point of view on the no-cop setup. Hopefully this latest explains my latest thoughts. I didn't really detail the others though, so I'll do that a bit more now:

The dude / Ash - I agree with you that The Dude has been a lot more transparent, even with the flavour text.
But Ash seems to match the general playstyle of *coughcough*. The latter of which gives me a neutral read at most. Dude has seemed generally towny overall, and in individual posts. They've been consise, analytical and probing, but also level-headed and on-topic.

Crow has seemed like a watered-down version of Dude, but a little more hot-headed. In individual posts he's been ok, but I feel that he's not quite as town in the overall view. If Miyagi flips scum, then he'll drop into scum territory for saving Miyagi from yesterday's block.

Ash - Certainly harder to read than Dude through the flavour. But I haven't felt anything scummy from him. He's been clear and concise too, but with less probing than Dude. He's in the neutral category for me because I don't have a lot to say about him frankly.

And yeah, I detailed Miyagi. So I propose Miyagi is the way forward. Waiting for comments.

I'm in full agreement that we can't run this to the wire. Scum won't be nice if we hit sudden death ~_~

[Excel]

I want Miyagi to be more active.

Is that all on Miyagi? Care to explain a little more? Can I have your thoughts on him at the current moment please?

[The Dude]

Morning, guys. Sorry I wasn't around last night like I'd hoped. Life, man. Gets in the fucking way.

Khan, I think your whole thing against Excel at this point is basically just you outsmarting yourself, and it seems like you're starting to come around to that point of view as well.

I find it pretty interesting, the extent to which Ash and Miyagi have chosen not to respond to my most recent points against them. With Miyagi in particular, I didn't find it at all difficult to rebut his argument for me being a planet eater fuck -- and in an incredibly concise manner, no less. And he's said nothing about it since then. More than anything else it honestly seems like both of those two are waiting for one of us to screw up and not vote for one of them so that they can swoop in and contribute to that fucking train.

Far as I can tell, we aren't too far from being in agreement on voting for either Ash or Miyagi. Crow and I could vote for either, Excel seems more keen on voting for Miyagi and Khan on voting for Ash. How can we work this out a good while before deadline?

[Mr. Miyagi]

I'd like to first say that aside from Excel, the Queen has been supportive of me as well. I therefore deduce that such things aren't likely "scum pairing tells", given that Queen is a Townie.

So at least one Townie could see reason with me and fail to see what is suspicious about me. Take that in what sense thou wilt.

I'm actually not sure what I'm looking for

With such a stance it is impossible for me to mount a defense that can satisfy you. If you cannot find fault other than with things I can't do a thing about other than, "Hey, I found it more important to chase who I think are scum than say, 'feels townie', 'neutral read', 'this opinion is worth jack shit because all I say is that I haven't the foggiest what to think of him'."

Okay, so I can see the value in telling you guys that I think everyone apart from the one I chase after seems less likely to be scum than the one I am chasing. I understand that, but it is not something I can either excuse or make amends to. It is simply too far gone in the game for me to still make a change to that.

I can, however, still try to compensate by weighing in right now.

I think Excel is most scummy at this moment.

I admit I looked at the Dude mostly on Yangus's behest, taking that a Townie has no reason to lie about suspicion and taking a gander at him. I outlined what I could find on him that was more-or-less solid, and he has rebuked most of those. Fine, I get that, I will not chase that line of inquiry unless further opportunity arises to call question to him again. At present he gives no reason for that.

breaking post here because of word limit, trying to be concise! posting case on excel after this one

[Excel]

I'm only going to be around for maybe another hour. I'm hoping for a consensus on Miyagi, but hypothetically if I couldn't vote Miyagi, Ash would be my second preference.

FOS: Miyagi (using FOS right now till we reach a consensus).

Ninja that badly needs answering -

I'd like to first say that aside from Excel, the Queen has been supportive of me as well. I therefore deduce that such things aren't likely "scum pairing tells", given that Queen is a Townie.

You've said 2 things there, and I find fault with both of them. Invoking the word of a dead towny is a pretty lame move. Now is not the time for metagame discussion though.
Also, I was never overly supportive of you. In one post I said I couldn't see much wrong with you, but I think that was back in early day 2? It certainly wasn't a recent opinion.
Considering I'm promoting your lynch, I hardly see how you can cite me as supporting you :S

I can, however, still try to compensate by weighing in right now.

I think Excel is most scummy at this moment.

.....so.... er...
Why? OMGUS?
I eagerly await your 'next post' which will hopefully provide some reasons for this ~_~

[Excel]

Oh, I was so shocked by Miyagi's post I forgot to say that I'll only be on for approx another hour max. I'll be placing a vote at that point then going to sleep.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Hi Dude.

------

RISK OF SOUNDING OMGUS HERE OLOL.

Excel, however, does. I could parrot Khan here and say, "Well, she's been so-and-so active blah blah", but I won't. For that part of the argument, refer to Khan. I agree with him.

But the line of thought Excel presented in that she is "likely not to be scum because of delayed roleclaim and THE TRAPS for scum" is something I vehemently disagree with. There are ways for scum to utilize this as well and turn the tables on a real Cop by calling their validity into question, not to mention that if we have a Town Cop and Excel claimed Cop, someone could've countered her. What if Dude, for example, is a Cop but held silent since he had nothing conclusive that could point him towards scum? I can easily see myself being persuaded by ANYONE other than Excel being the actual Town Cop. Please tell me if you do not understand this point, I will be glad to expand on this if necessary.

Now her case on me is an old one. "Flying under the radar" is her accusation, one which I disagree with. If I wanted to "fly under the radar" I would have adopted a playstyle where I merely comment on cases already made and provide a vote then and there. I would, under no circumstance, bother opening a Day 2 with a case on someone. If my strategy was to fly under the radar, then that move is directly counter to intention since the first post is a potential day starter.

I do not think I have ignored the "hot topics", I merely didn't have as much time as everyone else to paragraph about them. Time issues may be convenient for scum, aye, but I tried to keep a steady presence nonetheless.

The accusation about flavor is silly to me. If something was unclear, someone could've asked and I would respond to it if I read it, or otherwise they could remind me. Indeed, they requested I dropped it, but I also valued anonimity which I feel I've lost the moment I began talking like I normally do.

----

As far as Excel goes, I don't have much of a case on her that brims with originality compared to others. As I said, refer to Khan for arguments regarding her activity, but there's also some minor things.

For one, she expresses relief for not having hammered Queen Day 1. Which is something she couldn't have done, since in Sudden Death only one of the Ned-lynchers could hammer the Queen and not Excel herself.

On Day 2 sudden death she says that she thinks the case on me is circumstantial and certainly not favorable over the case on Yangus. At that point, her case on him rests on three posts she quotes, namely his Day 2 activity, and claims he has been "flying under the radar too much". I'm not sure whether her policy is LAL or Lynch Scum, but she certainly does seem pre-occupied with the former. Her case on me also is, "flying under the radar", which is funny considering most her posts are under Sudden Death.

On Day 2, she also says this on her... I think first post of Day 2:

The idea that I'd try and draw attention for myself...  "But why would someone get that kind of attention, one might ask?" - you didn't really even answer that question yourself. You just said that day 1 is a good time to do it; but why would I want to do that?

Crow raises an argument against her, and rather than debunk it she first throws in a lot of fluff flavor and then counters his argument with a question, leaving it up to the reader to debunk his argument instead of doing so herself.

She spends most of her Day 2 before-sudden-death-posts arguing with Khan over something he called a trifle. Call it communicative error, but that's what it is. Her vote on him is a prod to see what reason he had to mention her unvote of Queen and not-vote on Ned, but later on she mentions that

Ok, well despite Khan's walls of text, they're fairly comprehensive and he's managed to allay my concerns by providing his thoughts and logical processes. ##Unvote and reading through his posts a few times, I'm prepared to see his point of view on the issues.

So all of Day 1 Excel did this:

Jokes, votes on Queen, comes back on Day 1 Sudden Death to say she's swayed to get off Queen and hammers Ned which is attributed to be "gutsy".

All of Day 2, Excel...

Doesn't rebuke Crow's concerns, has a mostly town read on everyone, then proceeds to argue with Khan over a trifle, then votes on Yangus when he drops the vote on The Dude and expands that he has now been flying under the radar so long that she cannot ignore him... But doesn't build a case against anyone else.

Day 3, Excel drops in to ask for a roleclaim, claims vanilla and asserts her own towniness, cases on everyone as being... different flavors of neutral and pegs me as being the only scum, putting Crow in as my supposed partner based on... his hammering of Yangus.

Ninja'd by her, which is convenient! She first pegs Crow as my most likely scum partner, then goes on to say Ash is her second choice vote.

Why again am I exponentially worse than Excel, who hasn't really built cases on anyone that are concrete, real, and tangible?

I have a gutjerk feeling to Ash being her partner.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Sorry for the wall of text. I had to get all of that out to properly build both a defense and offense and hope you'll all forgive me.

[Excel]

But the line of thought Excel presented in that she is "likely not to be scum because of delayed roleclaim and THE TRAPS for scum" is something I vehemently disagree with. There are ways for scum to utilize this as well and turn the tables on a real Cop by calling their validity into question, not to mention that if we have a Town Cop and Excel claimed Cop, someone could've countered her. What if Dude, for example, is a Cop but held silent since he had nothing conclusive that could point him towards scum? I can easily see myself being persuaded by ANYONE other than Excel being the actual Town Cop. Please tell me if you do not understand this point, I will be glad to expand on this if necessary.

I'll start with this one.
Why would town lie on roleclaim at LYLO?
Answer: they wouldn't.
Who would believe someoen who admits they lied at LYLO?
Answer: nobody.

Your hypothesis is completely flawed. We've already discussed my vanilla roleclaim to death, and pretty much everyone agrees that it was pro-town.

[Mr. Miyagi]

How is claiming vanilla "pro-town"? You're the only one asserting that it is pro-town. The only thing the others agree on is that you could've claimed Cop when you didn't, and that if you were scum that could've sealed the game.

It's still a gambit for scum if someone counter-claims. It's one of the most risky things because scum claiming Cop when someone else lied about being Vanilla and then claims Cop would inevitably change it into a contest of which of the two looks best as Cop. Scum aren't perfect, so they could've well over-estimated the danger in Cop claiming and later realized, "Fuck, I could've done that" and then use that as an argument for why they are NOT scum, but that is WIFOM so I shan't expand on it.

It's not a matter of who claimed first at that point. Not the way I see it. I would look at who is most trustworthy to be the Cop, and if the Town Cop would explain he had nothing to help Town with and thus held silent of his role, then I could very well see arguments.

By saying, "Town wouldn't lie" and "Nobody would believe", you're automagically putting words in everyone's mouths instantly and forming a policy for them.

[Crow T. Robot]

Still catching up, saw Excel's request on my thoughts re: Miyagi. Won't be able to address for at least three hours. I'll try once I have the time to actually respond rather than read in between work.

[The Dude]

Far as I can see, the smartest fucking thing to do regarding Excel and her refusal to claim Cop is invoke Occam's fucking Razor, man. The path of way the fuck least resistance for her as scum would have been a fakeclaim, and we're all getting tangled up in a WIFFOM (guess what the extra 'f' stands for) briar patch trying to reason out every other possible scenario.

Look, I don't know how much I'm going to be around today, and since all of town needs to combine their votes for this to work for us at this point, I'm ready to drop mine right now. Of my two suspects he's been the least present and most scummy today, and only Excel seems to have a moderate problem with voting for him. I feel confident in this.

##VOTE: Ash

[Mr. Miyagi]

I'd say it was keeping around a bad player to help lose the game for the innocents if not much need to protect her any further at this point.

Just to address this (only now realized 'he' was 'me'), what exactly makes Excel a 'bad player' to you? The fact she hasn't really contributed? Feigned madness while keeping her balance? She's proven quite capable of formulating cases and arguments as per her discussion against you.

Cannot see this argument.

[Excel]

If I wanted to "fly under the radar" I would have adopted a playstyle where I merely comment on cases already made and provide a vote then and there. I would, under no circumstance, bother opening a Day 2 with a case on someone. If my strategy was to fly under the radar, then that move is directly counter to intention since the first post is a potential day starter.

Ok, you came out with one attack. But as I said, I wasn't going to reference individual posts, I was looking at your overall gameplay. One attack does not a game make.

The accusation about flavor is silly to me. If something was unclear, someone could've asked and I would respond to it if I read it, or otherwise they could remind me. Indeed, they requested I dropped it, but I also valued anonimity which I feel I've lost the moment I began talking like I normally do..

If memory serves me correctly, at one point somebody asked you to drop flavour, and you flat-out refused.

As far as Excel goes, I don't have much of a case on her that brims with originality compared to others. As I said, refer to Khan for arguments regarding her activity, but there's also some minor things.

If I wanted to "fly under the radar" I would have adopted a playstyle where I merely comment on cases already made and provide a vote then and there.

I don't have much of a case on her that brims with originality compared to others. As I said, refer to Khan

I merely comment on cases already made

The idea that I'd try and draw attention for myself...  "But why would someone get that kind of attention, one might ask?" - you didn't really even answer that question yourself. You just said that day 1 is a good time to do it; but why would I want to do that?

Crow raises an argument against her, and rather than debunk it she first throws in a lot of fluff flavor and then counters his argument with a question, leaving it up to the reader to debunk his argument instead of doing so herself.

Crow said that I was trying to draw attention to myself. I replied that there would be no motive for such an action.
I replied perfectly. Why is this scummy? You're just copy-pasting other people's arguments rather than coming up with your own.

Ninja'd by her, which is convenient!

Yes, it's all part of my master plan. I hacked your computer so that I know exactly when to post so that I can ninja you 

<-------------->

Aside from the things I just replied to, the rest of Miyagi's "arguments" are just a report on the things I did.
Reporter-style posting is useless.

Ninja Miyagi:

By saying, "Town wouldn't lie" and "Nobody would believe", you're automagically putting words in everyone's mouths instantly and forming a policy for them.

Er what? Are you saying that town should lie, and we should believe lieing town? What?

Ninja by Dude: Argh. I really want to vote Miyagi Dude.
Crow/Khan? Are you guys still going after Ash too?
Or has Miyagi dug a grave for himself enough that you dislike him too?

Ninja again:

She's proven quite capable of formulating cases and arguments as per her discussion against you.

Miyagi, just because I once voted for Khan doesn't mean he's going to ignore all the facts and revenge-vote me. And nobody thinks I'm insane (just as much as we think you're Japanese and know martial arts).

[Excel]

Dude - Ash hasn't been around, but what about Miyagi's recent flailing?

If Crow and Khan weigh in against Ash then I'll go along with that, but I don't want to discount Miyagi just because he's around and Ash isn't.

Khan - post please? Need to hear your thoughts on Ash v Miyagi

Crow - if you had time to post that, you could have at least said whether you favour Ash or Miyagi >.>" but ok, I'll be asleep by the time you finish work or whatever.