Author Topic: DL Interps  (Read 16311 times)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2008, 07:27:24 PM »
I remain baffled that anyone would give Squall both Shiva and Quetzacotl when any player in his or her right mind gives one to Squall and one to Quistis.

But see my earlier comments about plot claims needing gameplay backings. <_<

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Talaysen

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2008, 07:30:35 PM »
This is exactly why incredibly weak plot claims shouldn't be allowed in.  They can screw an entire cast over except one person for a very very weak reason, which is stupid.

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2008, 07:45:21 PM »
I remain baffled that anyone would give Squall both Shiva and Quetzacotl when any player in his or her right mind gives one to Squall and one to Quistis.

But see my earlier comments about plot claims needing gameplay backings. <_<

How different is it from equips which aren't character specific which there are one of but are given to a specific character? Shiva and Quetzacotl are one time "Items" given to squall. Character equips get special treatment in this area so why not GFs.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2008, 07:48:24 PM »
No, equipment does not get special treatment this way. I can't think of anyone who would get credit for TWO non-unique pieces of equipment on the same equipment slot based on plot arguments (even a character getting one such thing is rare, to the point where some people don't even allow any of these!). I find that just silly.

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Yakumo

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2008, 09:28:15 PM »
Is it really the same equipment slot when there's three of them?  I know what you mean, but that's like saying that if someone started a game with two accessories equipped that would normally be storebought later doesn't get either of them just because they're the same type of equipment, and no real reason for it.  He can equip both of them at the same time, what's the difference between that and say, Orlandu's Excalibur and Bracer?  The only difference there is that the GFs are both the same type of equipment, and Orlandu has a weapon and an accessory, neither of which is unique to him.  Now, if you don't think that he has a good enough plot claim to the GFs that's one thing, but that reasoning doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2008, 09:49:40 PM »
True, you can equip multiple GFs at once, but you and I both know that going from 0 to 1 GFs is a much, much more important improvement than going from 1 to 2, because it allows access to junctioning, the Magic command, the Item command, the Draw command, and the Summon command.

As such, no player is ever reasonably going to give two GFs to a single PC when there are other PCs with none. It's idiotic.

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Taishyr

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2008, 11:04:23 PM »
I remain baffled that anyone would give Squall both Shiva and Quetzacotl when any player in his or her right mind gives one to Squall and one to Quistis.

But see my earlier comments about plot claims needing gameplay backings. <_<

Screw you I never gave Quistis anything. >_>

(...Well, not until I could give her Siren.)

But seriously, yeah, I cannot consider giving Squall those two GFs an alien concept. Tastes differ, natch, but I just used Squall.

Doesn't help that Quistis leaves after that tutorial area for the next few areas, so any spells and stuff you get are stuck on her if you don't realize it. Raising up only Squall's practical, frankly.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 11:12:34 PM by Taishyr »

Yakumo

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2008, 11:25:23 PM »
I guess I just don't agree with requiring a gameplay reason to grant an equip if it's granted by plot.  Frankly, going by gameplay kinda doesn't mesh with the standard DL equipment practices in general.  I'll go into this in more detail when I get home if you want, I don't have time on my break, but for a quick example there are equips that are in chests in games that you would normally give to somebody at least, like the sword in FF1 that everyone can use and I forgot the name of, but in the DL nobody gets them because more than one person could use it.  Granted, not a great example, but I think you can get what I'm getting at.  Again, if you want more detail I'll get into this after work.

Then again, seems like you just feel plot arguments in general are too weak?  If that's the case I can understand that.  Don't necesarily agree, but can understand.

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2008, 11:26:17 PM »
There's also the fact that if you want to avoid the quagmire of which magic he'd be allowed, you could just hold him to summoning and stat boosts gained by the two GFs he starts with.  This makes Magic and Draw useless, and potentially Item as well based on interp.  There's also the issue of Doom, which Shiva grants.  Aside from that, there's just Vit/Spr/Mag +40% which isn't that godly with unjunctioned stats.

You might also give some credit for Thunder/Ice/Mid Magic refine, but that opens up a much larger can of worms.  Same with allowing Ifrit as that brings out Mad Rush which, without Magic, is simply better for the FF8 cast.

Taishyr

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2008, 11:28:38 PM »
Okay. I have a proposal.

Give Temp Seifer all the GFs in the game, and all the magic.

Let's see how he does in Godlike. >_>

(But, seriously? I do my best to not really think about Squall unless I have to out of sheer laziness. Need to check and see if he'll be in this season; if so, geh, I'll probably do some research and figure out what spells I give him and all that.)

edit: yep, in week 2. argh. after my midterms, then.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 11:32:19 PM by Taishyr »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2008, 12:02:51 AM »
Quote
Doesn't help that Quistis leaves after that tutorial area for the next few areas

At which point you take whatever GF she had and give it to Zell or Seifer/Selphie. And then give Ifrit, which you conveniently just got, to the other. Gee, it's like the game is encouraging you to have a GF for everyone.

Quote
I guess I just don't agree with requiring a gameplay reason to grant an equip if it's granted by plot.  Frankly, going by gameplay kinda doesn't mesh with the standard DL equipment practices in general.  I'll go into this in more detail when I get home if you want, I don't have time on my break, but for a quick example there are equips that are in chests in games that you would normally give to somebody at least, like the sword in FF1 that everyone can use and I forgot the name of, but in the DL nobody gets them because more than one person could use it.  Granted, not a great example, but I think you can get what I'm getting at.  Again, if you want more detail I'll get into this after work.

I don't follow you at all, I'm afraid. We don't give that sword to anyone because everyone has a claim to it. You have to do one of three things:

-You give it to everyone in the DL. Problematic since one sword being used by six people rubs many voters, including myself, the wrong way.
-You choose someone to give it to. This is VERY BAD since it shows clear bias. Note that this is the case that plot arguments try to put forward; so they have to be pretty good to overcome this bias. It helps them if there's a gameplay case to back it up.
-You give it to nobody. This is the most common because while not perfect (not entirely true to in-game), it is the least evil case.

I'm open to plot arguments to various degrees, but ones which just plain spit at gameplay? Gameplay has always been the most important qualifier to determine legality.

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Taishyr

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2008, 01:26:14 AM »
NEB: And all the spells/etc. on Quistis get wasted. Thus why I don't really consider her viable there. But whatever; doesn't work for you, doesn't work for you.



Dark Holy Elf

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2008, 01:32:42 AM »
So you move all her spells to Squall right before she leaves if you really care about losing them for one dungeon. Or you give most of the spells you do get to Squall in the first place.

Even deprived of any spells at all, just having a GF equipped makes you an immensely more useful PC in-game. Item/Draw/Summon alone.

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Taishyr

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2008, 01:42:58 AM »
I can't even really agree with that; Summon takes forever until Disc 2 or so and Item's useless except if you're abusing invincible items. Draw's the only one of any real use and you're still not only doubling the amount of time you take in battle with that, but also spreading out the initial spread of Magic-boosting spells you get in order to make your draw rate worth anything, which means it takes generally slower overall.

Equipping both on the person who has them initially is, to me, the more sensible option; to give that person more options as opposed to the temp PC who doesn't rejoin until, what, the end of Timber?

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2008, 01:47:27 AM »
Um wha?  Even after Quistis leaves the party, she appears as a viable person to Switch Junction from.
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Taishyr

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2008, 01:48:53 AM »
As a viable person to switch spells from or someone you can unequip the GF from?

If the former, huh, never was aware of that; thanks.

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2008, 02:00:41 AM »
Both, I believe.  She might not appear in the reserve during the Dollet mission?  But I'm pretty sure she does, and you can also Switch Junction on her at a minimum (less precise if you just need some spells, but it gets the job done.)
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2008, 02:17:55 AM »
I can't even really agree with that; Summon takes forever until Disc 2 or so and Item's useless except if you're abusing invincible items. Draw's the only one of any real use and you're still not only doubling the amount of time you take in battle with that, but also spreading out the initial spread of Magic-boosting spells you get in order to make your draw rate worth anything, which means it takes generally slower overall.

Item lets you heal, Draw lets you to store up spells (as well as cast 'em), Summon does massive damage. All of these things are more useful than hitting someone with a pathetic low-level unjunctioned FF8 physical (it's not like Quistis even has a limit worth noting yet) while Squall wins the battle solo with his far more impressive junctioned auto-criticalling physical or Water/Ice spells.

Meanwhile, what does one PC get from equipping two GFs instead of one at the start? I really can't think of anything meaningful. It opens up a couple more stat junctions, but you don't really have the spells to take advantage of this, especially since you're restricting the Draw command to only one PC.

We're getting away from the point here. Okay, fine, you hate Quistis and refuse to touch her because she's a temp. Fine. I'll skip to when your party is Squall/Zell/Selphie. You have three GFs. Are you seriously keeping two on Squall while one PC gets nothing?

As I alluded to previously, the game goes out of its way to ensure each PC has a GF, since GFs are how FF8 PCs do anything. Keeping a PC without a GF is like keeping an FF7 PC without any materia; you can do it, but it's a challenge and/or you can only get away from it because the game is too damn easy.

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Taishyr

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2008, 02:28:25 AM »
At that point? No. Then you get Siren and Shiva can go right back on.

Seriously, you point seems to be that they'd need to be on the person the entire time, which I can't buy. He makes best use of them in the prologue and can obtain them via plot. To me, frankly, that's enough, especially since they can stay on him the entire time aside from that dungeon (in which I'd argue you're wasting your time -there- giving anything to Seifer/Selphie, but.)

So whatever. I'm pretty much done here; not that you have not raised your points but quite frankly I'm getting irritated without reason, which means I need to step away.

Yakumo

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2008, 02:29:47 AM »
Quote
I guess I just don't agree with requiring a gameplay reason to grant an equip if it's granted by plot.  Frankly, going by gameplay kinda doesn't mesh with the standard DL equipment practices in general.  I'll go into this in more detail when I get home if you want, I don't have time on my break, but for a quick example there are equips that are in chests in games that you would normally give to somebody at least, like the sword in FF1 that everyone can use and I forgot the name of, but in the DL nobody gets them because more than one person could use it.  Granted, not a great example, but I think you can get what I'm getting at.  Again, if you want more detail I'll get into this after work.

I don't follow you at all, I'm afraid. We don't give that sword to anyone because everyone has a claim to it. You have to do one of three things:

-You give it to everyone in the DL. Problematic since one sword being used by six people rubs many voters, including myself, the wrong way.
-You choose someone to give it to. This is VERY BAD since it shows clear bias. Note that this is the case that plot arguments try to put forward; so they have to be pretty good to overcome this bias. It helps them if there's a gameplay case to back it up.
-You give it to nobody. This is the most common because while not perfect (not entirely true to in-game), it is the least evil case.

I'm open to plot arguments to various degrees, but ones which just plain spit at gameplay? Gameplay has always been the most important qualifier to determine legality.

I know that wasn't a great example, but it was the first thing that came to mind in the ten minutes I had to work with on break.  The point I'm trying to get at, though, isn't that we should allow that particular sword to someone in the DL; it's that what you do during gameplay is not necessarily indicative of what you see in the DL format.  In-game, someone will be using that sword, but it's clearly illegal in the DL.  Hence, despite the gameplay factor that, at endgame, this weapon will likely be in use, that gameplay element doesn't translate to the DL.  What I'm getting at is that a gameplay argument for or against something is shaky at best and not something I'm going to use, personally.

A better example, now that I have time to formulate one, is really the type of plot or unique equips we do already allow.  Often, the only accessory that we allow a character to use for statistical purposes is one they start with, let's use FFT equips for an example.  Agrias joins you with a Diamond Armlet, which blocks slow and gives +1 PA and MA.  The FFT thread says that you throw out that stat boosting for anyone except Agrias since it's her starting equipment, but in-game would you really be using that on her?  There's much better accessories available, so from a gameplay point of view she should never need to have that equipped at endgame, which is the timeframe in-game that we take for the DL.  Why should we allow her to use that with her endgame stats if what we see in gameplay is the most important factor for what a character can and can't use in the DL?

Again, this is just an example and there's a few holes in it that you could obviously pick apart if the only thing you're looking at is the example itself, but the point is that not everything is cut and dried exactly like gameplay.  Hell, if you're playing FF8 blind you probably would junction both of those to Squall at least until you realized that there was another character about to join you.  You might never fight with them both on them, but making an argument that there's never any gameplay reason to put them both on him at once and using that as the basis for disallowing them seems more like an excuse than an actual reason.  Just because it's not the most effective setup in game doesn't make it not valid as the DL setup.

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2008, 03:26:03 AM »
A few things.

1. As far as the whole GF thing goes, I always thought the biggest DL advantage is that they basically function as temporary Chaos Shields with damage if they last long enough. And yes, I give Squall Shiva and Quetz, but no junctioned magic.

2. My view on storebought magic is that if it can't be de-equipped and directly passed on to someone else once it's put on, I give it to 'em. This mostly affects FF1, Lufia 2, and Pokemon.

OblivionKnight

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2008, 05:15:53 AM »
Sure, this sounds fun!  Here's my thoughts (as if anyone cares >_>)

DL Interpretation Guidelines:

Items: Pretty much agree on everything Djinn had said here.  I allow anything of any sorts to be used with item skills, i.e., Rikku's Use, Alchemists in AI, Mystic, etc.  I allow as many as possible that can be held (e.g., if max item holding is 9, I allow 9; if 2109, I allow 2109), with the exception that if there's only one of the item in the game (e.g., FF4 Spoon), then that's all that I allow.  I also allow Minato, Jack, etc. the ability to use items.  It's...a unique ability of theirs in-game to use items, so I don't see a reason to disallow it.  Granted, I don't allow Minato to use Medicines or other items that other characters can use, but it doesn't make a huge difference.  As for DQ4...definitely don't allow Solofia to use items.  If you put an item in an AI character's inventory, they use the item.  

Item-casting: Item-casting I allow, always.  If it's multiple unique items, I let them use them as often as they want.  E.g., if a character starts a fight equipped with a weapon that they can use to item-cast, then they can use it - if they also happen to have other unique items they can use to item-cast, then I let them use them.  However, if it's a non-unique item (e.g., FF4 rods and staves or FF items in general), they can have it, but only the one they have equipped (so only one Pearl Rod, etc.)

Money: I assume the skill is fully powered up.  Unless money isn't some type of renewable resource (so...uh...FE11 Gil Toss?!).

Limit Meters: I am pretty sure I go with allowing full AP bars in LoL, Lufia 2, LoL2, LoD, etc.  It's renewable, easy to do, and a majour part of in-game.  Also, you typically do have them completely filled anyway.  It's not like GX, where it starts at 0 every dungeon.  For SoA, they start with their initial SP (which I assume as 4 for everyone, since I do take levels higher), not a full bar, as you can't start a fight with a full bar (max SP is based on the characters added values, and initial values are always < max).  I also do put a limit on all meters of this sort, e.g. VP (I don't allow energy to build up, which really hurts a lot of the cast), and don't let SoA characters exceed their max SP, since, in-game, if you have one character, you can't do that.  As for WA games...same thing as with SoA - they build it up, since that's what they do in-game.  Except WA2 and WA3, where it's their level.  Then they start with their level.  

Weakness: No majour differences in thought.  If a character has a 4x weakness to lesbians in-game, they have a 4x weakness to lesbians in the DL.  Of course, if that weakness doesn't exist, I don't place plot alignments onto it (so...nuclear isn't fire elemental, it's nuclear elemental).  The weaknesses are based on the character, so even if an attacker hits 50x damage on a weakness in-game, they don't do that in the DL.  I do also considered EB HP rolling and CC fields, though.  It's important for their games, and are legitimate advantages they have in-game.

MP Death: SO3 characters die when their MP is killed.  Whether I let them kill or not...no.  See above - it's a weakness of theirs in-game, and they have the advantage of being able to do MP damage when a lot of other casts can't.  (now, how to scale MP damage...)

Additions: Forgot about how counters work in LoD.  Interesting.  However, for additions and the like that require skill on the player end, I...go back and forth between allowing them to be perfect and forcing possibilities of screwng up.  Even the best person at the Judgment Ring or additions or SMRPG timed hits will make errors, and obviously the characters can't do them perfectly themselves, or they wouldn't need player input.  Also, in the aforementioned games, accessories exist that allow skills to be perfected.  So...I don't know where I stand, though I lean towards assuming some failure.

Movement speed is how I go with ARPGs.  If a character is fast (i.e., Guy, Fayt) via movement speed, then they're fast via speed.  Fayt's faster than, say, Kresnik to me.  Move speed is very sexilicious in-game, so it feels right to make it important and useful in a fight.  

Distance...eh.  Don't think I incorporate that much.  I would like to, but...even ranged characters aren't necessarily faster or whatever.  In terms of counters and the like...if a character is immune to LR attacks in-game, then they are immune to LR attacks in the DL.  But I don't do much else there.

Hexes: I assume them.  I assume a randomly generated battlefield with random hexes, and a random placement of the character, just like in-game.

SRPG Movement-based initiative: Don't think I do anything for this.  If the character goes first in-game, I assume they do in the DL (so...Laharl attacks first, then is average speed).  For FFT...they have a real speed stat, so that goes.  Same with WA5.  Brig is level-based, and I don't know how I want to do Brig (2 ways - all at level 30, or scale them a bit like FE, i.e., take them at level 20, those initially above 20 get those levels) speed.  AtL games also have speed.  FE games...I take their speed as speed.  It's...kind of how it works in-game, though yes, it's not perfect.  After initiative turn, of course.  Or non-initiative, if they're the enemy.  

Focusing: Fully allow this.  No reason not to - it's how the skill works in-game, no reason to not allow it to do that in the DL.

Skills/Equips: All unique skills/equips are allowed.  The exception is that the skills/equips must be usable in the main game.  So, VP1 SG not allowed,  but VP2 SG allowed (same with CoT, Morlia, etc.).  Also, if there is enough of an equip to go around in the main game (Shield Rings in ToP) for all users, it's ok.  Uniqueness is special.  If it's storebought, I allow it.  This includes all accessories, not just status guards.  You can buy these and use them in-game - see no reason not to allow them to be used.  I default characters to initial accessories, and use them for averages, however.  As for runes, materia...if they start with it, great.  Storebought...I've been leaning towards allowing them, and think I will.  It's similar to FF1, in that regard - if I don't allow that, then it's pretty stupid to allow FF1 magic - I should really just limit it to storebought stuff, which makes Red Wizard cry badly.  If there's plot backing for skills/equips, they get them too.  So, L2 PCs in the final party I give upgraded spells based on L1 (or give them the spells, such as giving Maxim healing spells).  Any plot backing for something is given - it helps make things cooler, to me.  I guess this means I give Rinoa Leviathan based on her FF8 demo form.  

Plot elemental-typing: No.  Things are elemental as they are in-game.  If something is goat elemental in-game, but has a wind-elemental animation?  It's still goat elemental.  If it's called wind but looks lightning in-game...it's wind.  If it's called lightning, looks like lightning, but has no elemental alignment in-game?  It's non-aligned.  If it's grass-elemental in-game, it's grass-elemental in the DL.  Etc.  I also don't allow elements to be resisted by all-resisters if they don't resist them naturally (so...Minerva doesn't resist goat-elemental attacks).  

Guarding: If a character can defend in-game, they can do it in the DL.  No restrictions.

Status-blocking for bosses: See elemental stuff above.  Same thing, generally.  Relm's Control, for reference, I allow and it hits Control immunity/resistance (and...level, apparently).

Equipment Breaking/Stealing: Yeah, agree here, mostly.

Forced Retreat:  I allow these to work.  If a skill makes enemies disappear, it works.  Not having to fight is a reward in itself, and allows for victory in-game, so it's odd to not see it that way in the DL.  Dropping someone into a vortex works to get rid of them pretty well >_>

Damage scaling lower limit: Subtractive defenses all the way for me.  It's the original, and true way to do things.  So yes, Mint doesn't break Rand's defense.

Plot fusions: Characters are allowed forms if and only if that form is them story-wise.  Lyon (FE8) doesn't get his boss form for me because of this - it's never him fighting you, it's Fomortiis in his body.  I therefore vote on PC Lyon (who...is still decent).  Lyon is never Lyon, but Fomortiis - therefore, I could also see taking Fomortiis as Lyon in the DL...which is better for him?  This is also the reason I take Shizel's PC form, since...at least from what I remember, Shizel is only Shizel in the flashback, not as a boss (it's Nereid controlling the body).

Temp-scaling: Temps are scaled to the party they were last with upon leaving.  It's the party they were meant to be scaled to - can't see taking them against phantom parties or the like.

Turn order: All things converted to turn-based to me.  The old way is the best.  I don't allow EXAs between characters unless both characters can be EXA'd in-game.  

Unranked forms: As long as they are still the same character, it's fine by me.  So yes, Kratos can use his ToV form, etc.

All of the above is, of course, always subject to in-game respect coefficients, attractiveness, and character personality, which are far more important than battle prowess or the like.  Orlandu for Puny.

...wow, so many things to think about.  I might elaborate more later.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 05:18:15 AM by OblivionKnight »
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2008, 06:14:01 AM »
I'm not trying to show any kind of bias towards characters by allowing Plot claim items at all. In fact, my reasoning for allowing plot claim items is to simply increase the representation of certain battle system elements of games that too often get completely left out of the DL. It may not seem 'fair', but then neither does having an entire cast of runeless Suikoden characters.

Certainly I'm not considering plot claim items out of any sense of favoritism for specific characters. What I'm trying to do is set up some guidelines and then let the averages fall where they will, trying to minimize any 'case-by-case' potential room for favoritism. This doesn't even help any characters that I personally like that I can think of. Certainly I'm not a fan of Squall at all, but his claim to Shiva and Quetz seem strong enough to me, especially by the guidelines I'm positing. Giving this to Squall actually hurts the few FF8 cast members that I -do- like (Zell, Quistis). I'm not considering giving Squall any magic or junctioning at this point as there doesn't seem to be any plot claim or semi-uniqueness about any magic that I know of.

Here's what I'm considering as a way to be consistent in my views on 'plot claims' - some of these may seem generous, but if I allow them for -all- casts, it should even out.

Plot Claim guidelines:
If a character is ever directly handed an item/equip/ability in a plot scene, it is legal. If said item was stated as being directly for another character instead, this item is only legal for that character.
If an item/equip/ability is found in a specific character's belongings (their home, backpack, ship, etc.), that character has legal claim to it.
If an item/equip/ability requires a certain character to obtain, the item is legal for that character. This discludes the main in many cases as s/he will be the onscreen character.
If a character is ever shown holding or using the item/equip/ability in a plot scene, then the item is legal for that character.
If a character is ever shown using abilities or effects of an item/equip, it is assumed that they have access to all abilities/effects granted by an item/equip.
If only one character is capable of using an item/equip/ability when it is found, it is legal for that character.
If another game in a series indicates that a character has claim to an item/equip/ability, it is legal for that character.
Innate or high-level affinity for an item/equip/ability may be considered as supplementary plot claim, but on its own is insufficient. (tentative)
Initial equipment may be extrapolated to determine endgame equipment in certain cases (tentative).

EDIT3: As an example - here's the Lufia2 cast with plot claims and semi-uniques (the maximum amount of spells I would allow)
Lufia2 spells based on Lufia1 plot claim and initial equips (*) :
~Semi-unique spells:
Maxim:
Valor - revive + party fullheal
Champion - fullheal
Stronger - partial heal
Poison - cures poison
Protect - MGR up
Waken - cures sleep
Release - cures paralysis
Rally - revive (low heal)
~Perish - 25% ID
~Destroy - 50% ID
~Reset - resets puzzles
~Deflect - 85% silence

Selan:
*Strong - low heal
*Flash - Thunder 1
*Spark - Fire 1
*Drowsy - 55% sleep

Mirror - reflects attack magic
Fake - AGL up
Thunder - Thunder 3
Firebird - Fire 3
Ice Valk - Ice 3
~Perish - 25% ID
~Destroy - 50% ID
~Fireball - Fire 2
~Light - godly vs. FE fog-of-war
~Escape, Warp - out of battle only

Artea:
*Thunder - Thunder 3
*Dragon - Water 3
*Firebird - Fire 3
*Ice Valk - Ice 3
*Valor - revive + fullheal
*Champion - fullheal
*Fry - Holy
*Zap - Holy 2

Dread - DFP down
Mirror - reflects attack magic
Trick - ATK up
Courage - DFP up +
Rally - revive (low heal)
~Spark, Fireball - Fire 1,2
~Escape, Warp - out of battle only
~Deflect - 85% silence

Tia:
*Drowsy - 55% sleep
*Strong - low heal
~Spark, Fireball, Firebird - Fire 1,2,3
~Perish - 25% ID
~Destroy - 50% ID
~Escape, Warp - out of battle only
~Deflect - 85% silence

Lexis:
*Stronger - partial heal
*Blizzard - Ice 2
*Vortex - Water 2
*Bolt - Thunder 2
*Fireball - Fire 2
*Rally - revive (low heal)
*Bravery - DFP up
*Trick - ATK up
~Spark, Firebird - Fire 1,3
~Perish - 25% ID
~Destroy - 50% ID

-Djinn


PS: And OK, thanks for the detailed interps - I'm seriously going through each of my views and adding relevant new examples and situations to them from your list. ^_^ Also... what's EXA'd (I'm guessing it has nothing to do with the mediocre Shining Force ARPG?)

2. My view on storebought magic is that if it can't be de-equipped and directly passed on to someone else once it's put on, I give it to 'em. This mostly affects FF1, Lufia 2, and Pokemon.

This is an interesting idea, I might adopt it. But I'm curious as to why you view it this way?


EDIT: Grandia 3 special moves run off SP, which can only be gained by attacking, I believe. Unless there is a way outside of attacking to fill up SP in G3 (I don't remember if staying at an inn does this or not), then it should be considered a kind of Limit Meter and starts at 50% for me (instead of 100% as I was originally thinking).
Does anyone remember how this worked? (I'm pretty sure G1/G2 SP was included in full-heals.)

EDIT2: Some questions. First, how exactly does Geno's weird move work? Is it some kind of Forced Retreat move that doesn't give bonuses? I've forgotten. Or was it some kind of really difficult to use player-skill dependent move? Or just random? If random, what was the rate?
Black Dragon Grief - 100% forced retreat? Did it work on bosses? No rewards, I remember. If you allow it, does it hit ID resistance or what?

While I'm thinking about Lunar... I remember Lunar2 had Crests that allowed PCs to use spells and summons. Any plot claims on those? I vaguely recall that Jean might have some plot claim to the Blue Dragon summon. And Leo has a pretty good argument for having the White Dragon summon. I imagine Hiro has a decent claim to the Red Dragon... (though Ronfar might, too?). Some of the spell crests might have plot claim too if they were found in certain characters' belongings, but I haven't play Lunar2 in ages...

« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 03:37:48 PM by DjinnAndTonic »

Ultradude

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2008, 07:39:41 AM »
I'll nitpick the differences later (some elemental, SRPG, and speed stuff) but I mostly agree with OK on the relevant issues.
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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2008, 12:51:38 PM »
Since I jumped in without posting my own views, well.. here.

Items: If the person has a unique command to use items with, I allow it. 99/max of storebought, ~20 common drops/steals, 0-2 rare drops/steals depending.

Item-casting: If it's equipped on them, they can use it.

Money: I tend to throw this out.

Limit Meters: Start at 0, but are usually scaled to 100% HP (Lufia 2 doesn't notice, FF7 thanks me).  VP can accumulate.

Weakness: Character-dependent. Jury is still out on if I consider hitting weakness on Pers3/DDS/SMTN people as granting another turn. Current answer is yes, not sure if I'll keep that since as someone else said it really feels like a battle system and not a character thing. Mmm, will consider; this also hinges on my consideration for turn-based.

MP Death: This will probably flip if I change my mind on the extra turn from weakness issue. Currently, it's yes, SO3 people die from MPkill.

Judgment Ring Stuff: I try not to think about it.

Counters: Is a property of the defender; fighting Hector doesn't give you the chance to counter all his attacks and still make your own attacks.

Stun: Tend to throw it out unless it's a prolonged effect; then I treat it like FFX's Delay attacks.

ARPG Move: Attack speed is what I consider for speed, with chance for initiative depending. somewhat. (Fayt would probably get it for me since he teleport-attacks with Dimension Door? But Maria still needs to approach, so she wouldn't get init.)

Distance: Factors in for initiative/counters/some random defenses.

Hexes: Assumed that the battlefield can be divided into hexes for those who rely on them.

SRPG Movement-based initiative: Only if they have one of the massive range spells/attacks. Then after that, it goes based on speed or, if there is no real speed stat (FE), average speed. (FE attack speed doesn't factor in how often they get attacks so much as how often they get to doubleact on their turn. So.) 

Focusing: Is something I don't do well. But yeah, allow it.

Skills/Equips: Quite frankly? Leaning towards a version of OK's interp as a way of reconciling the issues I have with skills/equips, pretty much. With this said, someone here finally helped me pin (before NEB/I/others managed to get a half-derail going >_>) why I have more issues with FF7's materia; not only are they purchaseable, they're transferrable. So while I still think I may do Lufia2 spells, I know now why FF7 feels off.

I agree that they need to be usable in the main game and either be purchaseable or have a plot claim to them. Non-transferrable would probably also make my list, skills-wise. Need to think on it a bit more, but a gameplay claim doesn't factor in anywhere near as much, and that's what NEB has managed to convince me of if anything. >_>

As for the shaky ones brought up earlier... Allow the VP ones, I have no clue what the source of the FF6 ones are, Cleo gets the fire rune, FF8 Shiva/Quetz I allow but not Leviathan since I don't factor in demo examples. >_> FF7 Yuffie's Leviathan... sure, not like it matters much. WA3 no clue. WAo Guardians I allow them the Gold ones that are their plot effects. Rest no clue.

BoF1 Magic: Can get reduced by magic defense. All BoF1 PCs are average defense against magic.

Plot elemental-typing: Mostly no. Minerva covers all the FF6 elements, no more. There are limited exceptions but that's due to me considering them practically the same thing but under different names (Hama/Holy, Explosion/Nuclear are the two that pop into my head. Nuclear =/= fire, but.)

Guarding: Require to have a unique function. Else it just becomes a glorified wait command and seriously fuck that. Also may only allow every other turn on even a legal defend command just for my sanity's sake. (LoD/LoL/LoL2 w/abilities equipped to Defend, for example.)

Status-blocking for bosses: If they can't be hit by any status in-game, they're status-immune in the DL. If there is a status that can hit them in-game, I also allow statuses not in-game to hit, as it shows they have a gap in the defenses.

On this note, I allow Relm Control, would let it be blocked by Control/Charm blocking, I think.

Equipment Breaking/Stealing: Allowed if the equipment can be removed or changed in battle.

Forced Retreat: Don't really allow it to work. Apply this to the boss side as well.

%-skills/crits: Currently function on 51% is a hit turn 1, 50% is not. However, I will admit to the impulse to just hatbot battles that rely on this as if they were actually fighting and it isn't just some theoretical exercise. But hey.

PCHP: 3x. 2.5x feels weird.

Boss HP: A penalty is applied for AI->Perfect AI transition depending on how idiotic the origin AI was. Jade doesn't like this much. Also gets scaled by number of attacking PCs+number of support PCs/2 (so Jade gets scaled down by a further 3.5, w/ Ryu/Deis/Karn/Nina team). The AI penalty can be opped out of, but that restricts the character to pretty much acting on their AI (so Jade can regain a major chunk of durability IF he wants to be spamming Chill most the fight.)

Damage scaling lower limit: Depends on the character attacking.

Plot fusions: See OK, except if the person seems to still have some sort of control I still allow it. (I also just think I zone out ToE plot so Shizel is Shizel lalalala can't hear you OK.)

Temp-scaling: Can go to hell or something. Augh. Hate temp issues. In general, they get far, far less respect from me that they would if they stayed in all game, but I do do some scaling. Just... ack, I tend to kneejerk against them nowadays.

Turn order: FFX speed system with BoF5 movement (not attack) system. Thus why I'd give Fayt an initiative Dimension Door, though the opponent would probably get a free hit in from here before I factor in turn speeds. (Mages need some time to cast, usually; most things that could act right as Fayt Dimension Doors probably also deserve initiative title).

Unranked forms: If they're the same character, allowed, if it's a boss cameo form, scaled to a PC party meant to fight them and not endgame levels because trying to take things to endgame levels forever is silly. (DAMNIT, FLONNE, UPGRADE.)

Multipart bosses: If they can be summoned ingame, I allow them to have this happen. Else, I tend to toss their abilities to the main part. In compensation, they receive only a very small AI penalty if they would ideally spam one of the attacks gained from this. (Zophar likes it, not so much though since Fate Storm is ID with flashy numbers to me, hitting a resistance that no Lunar2 PC has.) Attacks spammed in this regard go off the part's original speed.