DL Interps

[DjinnAndTonic]

These are my personal Interps for the DL and DL-related matches. Posted here to help me stay consistent and fix any self-contradicting Interps. Some arbitrary percentages were used for standardizing and balancing purposes.

I'd like to hear some more voters' Interps for comparison.

Items: Unique character skills that involve the use of items are legal for that character. However, they will have a limited supply of items (generally, no more than 10 of each, less so for more rare items, and non-replenishable items are illegal, unless they are unique to the character). If it is a battle system quirk that only one character (the main) has access to items, it does not make items 'unique' to him/her.
e.g. FFX Rikku, FFs Chemist, WAs Mystic, AIs Alchemists, FF6 Shadow
counter-examples: P3, DQ4o, RS

Item-casting: Characters may item-cast anything they have equipped, provided that they can item-cast equipped items in their home game. Alternately, if they can unequip their equipped items in-battle, they may do so to item-cast. If a unique item-cast ability exists for a character, that character may use an unequipped item to item-cast (if they can do unequipped item-casting in their home game).
e.g. FF6, PS2, FF4

Money: Skills that run off of money for damage are legal. However, the total amount of money available to the character is 10% of max money, which they may use all at once or can use to chip.
e.g. FFs Coin Toss/GP Rain

Limit Meters: If a character -can- start a battle with a full Limit Meter, then they will start a duel with a Limit Meter as high as 50%.
e.g. FF7, TotA, Lufia2, Lunar Legend, S4 Rush, ToS, LoD, ToV, LoL2, G3, XS3?
Exceptions: FF7, due to Limit Levels can start with a 50% Lv4, 75% lv3, or 100% lv2/1; LoD can start with 50% of their TOTAL Dragoon gauge; G3 has infinite full-SP restoring items, which is somewhat unique for a Limit Meter, so I'm allowing G3 characters to start with full SP.
Counter-examples: WA3,4,5 FP, SoA SP, LoL Spirit

VP1 PWS: I allow characters to build up to their PWS. I think I would allow VP2 characters to do this too if it mattered.

Battle Onset HP: If a character -can- start a battle with non-max HP, and they may want to start a battle with a lower current HP, then they have the option of starting at 50% health. This is similar to the rules on Limit Meters, and it is an advantage that PCs can use in-game. It is balanced by the set 50% mark and the obvious disadvantage of being easier to kill.
e.g. FF8, MK Pamela,

Pre-Battle Buffing: If a character -can- use a skill previous to battle to aid themselves at the start of the match in-game, then they are allowed to use this skill before DL matches. The character -must- have legal claim to the skill (unique/initial/plotclaim/etc.) and the resources to cast it on themselves without any help from teammates before a battle. If this is possible in-game, then this advantage carries over to the DL.
e.g. FF6 Celes Vanish
Counter-examples: FF8 Squall (wants to start a match with Blind to get Crisis mode, but Blind is not a DL-legal skill), FF6 Gau (wants to start a match with Poison to use a poison-absorbing Rage for good Regen, but Poison is not a DL-legal skill for Gau),

Battle System Advantage/Weakness: If the battle system gives a character a weakness, that weakness carries over into the DL. If the character is able to take advantage of this same weakness against enemies in their own game, this ability also transfers to duelling rules.
e.g. SO3 MP Death, DDS/P3 Press turns, CC Field effect, EB rolling HP?
counter-example: SHs gives player-characters a turn limit with Sanity Points. SHs enemies don't have this. Clearly this is a weakness -just- for the PCs.

MP Death: Exists in SO3 and FF6... how these two interact is a mystery.

Counters: If character can counter an attack, they will counter the attack (at the prescribed in-game percentage rate, of course). Whether this is an innate battle system quirk or the effect of an equip/skill, this is legal.
e.g. FEs, Dis, ShFs, FF7 Counter Materia (dungeon-only), SaGaF Deflect/Kasumi, SO3 (Peppita?), SO2, G3 Yuki

LoD Additions: Due to how LoD additions work, they automatically overcome counter attacks (due to player skill) unless the counter-attack in unblockable in some way.
e.g. FEs, Dis, ShF, SaGaF
counter-example: Augst's counter might be unblockable?

IP Suppressing and ARPG Stun: In games where PCs can use turn-delaying/cancelling techniques to completely the stop the enemy from moving, the characters may use these techniques to slow an opponent's upcoming turn by 0.1x Average speed. In special cases where an opponent is using a 'charged move', characters may use cancelling/stunning moves to cancel/interrupt the opponent's charged move. Note that opponents which are immune to stunning/cancelling/paralyzing effects will not be affected.
e.g. Grandias Cancel moves, Tales/SOs combos generally leave opponents with a slight lag upon finishing even if they don't inflict Stun,
e.g. affected by cancel: Cyan's SwdTech, FFT delayed moves, Tales/SOs mages
counter-examples: Tales mages in Overlimit, SO3 Luther, anyone with Paralysis immunity (doesn't have to be called Paralysis immunity, just have to have the same effect)

ARPG speed: I generally see movement speed as indicative of turn speed to a degree. Turn speed is generally average, but movement speed spread is used to determine the outcome of ties. Effectively, this means all ARPG characters' speed falls between 1.11x average speed and 0.89x average speed. Exceptionally speedy types like Guy would be 1.11x average speed while slow-casting mages all probably hover around 0.9x speed.
e.g. SO2, 3, ToP, ToD, ToE, ToS, TotA, KH, RS

Turn order: Defaulting everything to CTB speed. A faster character, given enough rounds, will eventually double a slower character if nothing interferes. Abilities that activate faster than a character's normal speed can be used to increase their turn rate. Characters from TB systems can double, but they have imposed caps at 50% and 200% CTB speed. Characters from ARPGs and SRPGs are forced to take their turns within this framework, but speed quirks from their homegames will effect their speed/turnrate in the DL. If there is no speed stat, then they default to average speed, with range or attack rate for tie-breaks.
e.g. Everything?

Specific Turn order nonsense: Suikoden III Runes. Each spell level has an innate speed at which the spell is cast. Casting a Lv.1 spell almost always goes first, while a Lv.4 spell might get the character doubled in the CTB framework.


Distance: For SRPGs/ARPGs/TB-systems which incorporate 'distance' in some way, I try to incorporate distance where it matters. For example, hitting your opponent with Don't Move or an equivalent = melee immunity, provided the person who applied the status is using long range damage. Even if it wears off, the applier tends to have put insurmountable distance between himself and his target.
e.g. FE counters/weaknesses, WA4/5 hex elements, Dis lift/throw, Tales/SO flying/jumping/running/comboing, OB, VPs, AtLs, FFT

WA4/5 HEX system: I use a modified version of this to allow it to implemented in the DL. Basically, since only the WA character actually exists in a space where there are HEXes, only they can use them. Since there will always be more non-elemental HEXes than elemental ones, I assume the WA character will start in the middle HEX with no element and can waste their first turn to move to an element if they need to.
I can see arguments about an opponent moving onto the elemental HEX to stop the WA4 character. I would only allow this to characters who have movement abilities in their home game (SRPG/ARPGs) and this character is only moving to block the WA4 character, they receive no bonuses or weaknesses from the HEX. Of course, an opponent can only block one element, so this doesn't stop the WA4 character from using their first turn to move to a different element. WA5 characters obviously don't have to waste their first turn to do this. Likewise, ARPG/SRPG characters that can move and attack can still attack on their first turn after blocking the HEX.
e.g. WA4/5, Tales, SOs, Dis, Brig, FEs, AtLs, FFT, OB

Battle System Initiative: If PCs from a certain game have an ability that will -always- attack before their enemies, then they retain the ability to attack before opponents. After the initial turn, they will default to CTB turn order. In the event that multiple PCs have initiative, speed/movement will be used a tie-breaker. If a boss has an initiative move, they will retain their initiative in the DL. Between PCs and bosses both with initiative actions, PCs will usually take priority, though it depends on the initiative ability.
PCs going first just because that's how the battle system is set up -does not- count as an initiative ability.
e.g. WA4 Jeremy's Inertia Canceller,
e.g. Dis1/2, VP1,

Auto-Initiative: Characters with legal Auto-Initiative skills are viewed as if they start a match with a full ATB meter, as opposed to a 'random' ATB. After their first turn, their speed proceeds as normal according to their battle system.

SRPG Movement-based initiative: For SRPG characters, their initial turn is based off of how their movement/attack range ("Threat Range") compares to the rest of their cast. Higher Threat Range means a faster initial turn. After the initial turn, regular Speed comparisons apply.
e.g. Dis (most important here, after initial turn, generally average spd), OB, FFT, FEs, Brig, AtLs, WA5 (everything else only uses mov/threat range to determine initiative, how fast a character gets turns after the initial one is determined by their in-game speed).
counter-example: Brig mages cannot move and cast, giving them a very slow initial turn.

Player Skill: In ARPGs and RPGs that require 'skill' or 'timing' to achieve the best results, it is assumed that the player has the necessary skill to achieve max results.
e.g. ARPG combos, SHs Judgment ring, FFs non-random Slots effects, SMRPG timed hits, FF8 timed hits
counter-example: SMRPG 100 Ultra Jumps is ridiculous, though I could see an argument for it. If pressed, I would vote for it due to consistency.

Focusing: If a normally-MT spell/skill can be focused on a single character in-game, then it can be focused in the DL for the same effect.
e.g. FFs, Lufias, VP1, BoFs

Post-Endgame Uniques: When it comes to unique skills/equips, even if they are beyond endgame levels, they are legal for the duelist. This also includes unique equips/skills from generally aftergame areas. The skills still run off of endgame-level stats, however.
e.g. WA4, ToP Morlia, Lufia2 Ancient Cave, VP1 Lenneth's final weapon, XG Yamikei, LoD Divine Dragoon?, LoL Summons?, GS, G1 Feena, FF6 Terra's Ultima, SO2 Tri-Ace et al, Yuri's Seraphic Radiance,

Semi-unique skills/equips that are abundant (storebought or findable or enough exist in-game for those who -can- use it) are legal. A skill/equip is considered semi-unique only if less than (or exactly) 50% of the cast can use/learn it.
e.g. G1 magic, L2 magic, FF1 magic,
Counter-example: Suikoden runes, CC elements, FF7 Materia, FF8 Para-magic

Initial equips/skills are always allowed. If initial equips can grant further skills, these skills are also legal.
e.g. FF7 materia, WA3/5 Mediums, SoA elements, SaGaF weaponskills/statboosts, G2 Mana Eggs, FFX Sphere Grid, CC elements?

Plot claims for items/equips/skills are generally allowed, even weak claims. However, this is decided on a case-by-case basis.
e.g. (these examples are ones that I'm considering allowing, but want to hear arguments for/against) FF7 materia (Yuffie's Leviathan, Cloud's Deathblow?), WA3, WA5 Mediums, GS Djinn, SaGaF weapons, VP1 hometown equips (Arngrim/DragonSlayer, Belenus/Pressed Flower, etc), G3 guardian orbs, WAo Guardians, FF6 summons/equips (Locke/Phoenix Cave stuff, Terra/Maduin, Celes/Palidor, Cyan/Alexander, there might be others?), S1 Cleo Fire rune, FF8 (Squall/Shiva/Quetz, Rinoa/Leviathan), Lufias (L2 magic based on L1 prologue forms)

Universal equips: Storebought equips are legal for anyone who can use them. This includes accessories. Generally when an entire cast wants an accessory that just boosts stats, though, this doesn't help any of them, so they would forego it to avoid watering down the averages. Storebought status-blockers are all legal for those who can equip them. Dropped equipment is legal when the droprate for the equip is over 50% and the enemy who drops it has a >50% appearance rate in their given area.
e.g. Everything

Plot elemental-typing: Elemental and physical/magical typing of skills defaults to any given documentation of a game. If a game lists a skill as a 'physical thunder' attack, the skill is physical and thunder, regardless of animation. This same skill will hit physical defense and thunder resistance where available. If a game has no specifically physical defense, it will hit whatever defensive stat is in place (RES, or directly hitting HP). If a defending game has no thunder resistance at all, the elemental aspect of the attack will not be resisted. But if the defending game's elemental system includes thunder as a subset of a larger element (such as Wind, Light, or Yellow), this elemental resistance will be hit. Plot animation will be taken into account for determining which elements are considered 'subsets' of other elements. This also applies to elemental weaknesses.
e.g. Everything?

Specific elemental-typing nonsense:
e.g. S5's Sun element is separate from its Light element, this means that unless some Light-elemental skills in a defending game have an animation specifically relating to the Sun, an S5 Sun-elemental attack will NOT hit the defending game's Light resistance (or weakness). However, due to PKMN's Grass attacks having sun-related moves, S5 Sun element -would- hit Grass resistance (and weakness).
e.g. If a game has no defense stat, that means everyone is average in that stat and I default attacks to hitting defense. BoF1 magic, for example, should not be ITD. No more than it should be ITE just because BoF1 has no magic evade. ITD/ITE is rare, it makes far more sense to say "Everyone has average evade/defense" than to say "All attacks in this game are ITD"
e.g. SO2 Star, Vacuum, etc.; PKMN Grass, Flying, Ground, Steel, etc.; CC colors, CT Light/Lighting; ToE Aurora?; Games where ID and Status are elemental; P3/FE physical-type elements; FE 'Anima' resistance; FF 'Gravity' vs. PS4 'Gravity';
Counter-example: PS2 has no elements or elemental resistance, therefore all elements hit PS2's version of physical/magical RES. PS2 'elemental' attacks are, likewise non-elemental.

Elemental Junk (more succintly phrased) : Elements are whatever element they actually count as in-game. When hitting cross game, they are applied as the closest relevant element, unless another element from that game is closer, in which case it is taken as neutral.


Guarding: If a game has a defend command, a character may defend as long as defending serves some other purpose besides draining the opposition's resources. This includes waiting for Regen effects or other Automatically-activated effects.
e.g. FF9 Doom+Defend, LoD Defend, LoL Spirit, WA3/4/5 FP meter charging, SoA SP charging,
counter-example: Using some kind of perfect defend to run an FE character out of weapon charges (40+ turns of defend... dear god)

Status blocking: If a character can't be hit by any status in-game, they're status-immune in the DL. If there is a status that can hit the character in-game, then unblocked statuses from other games are allowed to hit, as it shows the character has a gap in their defenses.

Status-blocking for bosses: If a boss can simultaneously block all statuses from their home game, they can block any status effect.
*This only applies to statuses that could be blocked in the status' home game.
Status-blocking for PCs: If a character can simultaneously block all statuses from their home game, either innately, through equips, or through skills, they can immune all status effects.
*This only applies to statuses that could be blocked in the status' home game.
*Instant Death is considered a Status Effect in some cases (where it is considered a Status Effect by a particular game). Stat defuffing is not, in most cases.
e.g. Everything.
counter-examples: Grandia (Liete's Enclose cannot be blocked by any means in-game that I remember, Millenia's Spell-Binding Eye), FF6 Gau's Charm, FF6 Blind (an accuracy debuff) is considered a Status Effect in-game

Instant Death: The number of games in the DL which treat ID as separate from normal Status Effects far outnumbers the number of games in the DL which treat ID as another Status Effect. Thus, Instant Death is not a Status Effect unless a specific game states otherwise. For games where Instant Death does not exist, only Full Status Immunity to ALL of a games' native Status Effects can stop ID from other games.
counter-examples: SHs, some FF games,

Specific status nonsense:
Relm's Control: FF6 Relm's Control ability hits Charm/Confuse immunity. Since it is blockable in-game by 'Control immunity', it is blockable in the DL. The reason it is blockable by Confuse/Charm immunity is due to the Plot/animation-typing I do for elements. Similar to how I would allow multiple poison-type status effects (Shadow Hearts Poison/Deadly Poison) to all be blocked by poison immunity. Think of 'Control' as Lvl. 3 Charmga or something...
SMRPG Geno Whirl: This is being counted as 100% ID for my sanity's sake. Since bosses can block it in-game, it's obviously resistable. There's also the chance of missing, but I assume full player skill.


Equipment Breaking/Stealing and Switching: Legal for how it works in-game. If the victim cannot be without a weapon in their home-game, then they are immune. If the victim can switch equips during battle, then they may take a turn to equip a new weapon. If a character already has multiple weapons equipped, this will not take an extra turn, obviously (FE).
e.g. FFT, FF6, FEs

Forced Retreat moves that do not give EXP/rewards after battle are illegal.
e.g. Lunar BDG, FF9 Petrify, Suiko2/3/5 Blink Rune, WAs Eject?
counter-example: FF6 X-zone functions like normal ID, S4 Blink Rune functions like normal ID,

Self-Destruct Skills: Self-destruct moves are allowed in a duel under the same mechanics that apply in-game. If the last PC standing uses said self-destruct move to kill the last enemy standing and the win is awarded to the PCs (i.e. not a Game-over), then I allow the move in the DL.
e.g. Nothing I know of.
counter-examples: FF6 Strago's Exploder, Dis Thursday,

Auto-raise/Pre-raise Skills: The skill/equipment must follow the same rules for legality as other skills/equips (Unique/semi-unique/naturally-learned/plotclaim/initial-equip/etc.). This pretty much just means that I don't allow VP1 Guts. Consumable pre-raise equips are treated as Items, and therefore must be Unique, like Item-use skills, to be equipped (if any of these EXIST, then that character just got a huge boost to their duelling worth). If another party member must be alive for the pre-raise to activate (and not trigger a Game Over), then the pre-raise is useless in a duel (FFT, but still useful in a Team Match).
e.g. P4, FFT, MK Pamela, Parasite Eve
counter-examples: VP1 Guts

Percentage-based RNG skills/crits: If a skill has a percentage chance of activating, the skill will activate directly according to its chance of connecting. For example, if a skill has a 33% chance of activating, it will activate on the third casting. 50% chance activates turn 2. 51% chance activates turn 1, but should the caster need to reapply the effect during the battle, it will miss on the next casting. A 75% chance crit would be able to be activated twice in a row before missing.
e.g. Everything?

Damage scaling lower limit: No matter how high an opponent's defense, a character cannot deal less than 1% PCHP damage with a hit that connects (if it isn't absorbed/nulled).
e.g. Dekar's DEF stat is incredibly high, but a Mint staff-whack will still deal 1% of his maxHP. (only 99 more staff-whacks to go!)

Plot fusions: Characters are allowed access to any abilities that is innately theirs. They are allowed access to any abilities where the power of another being is completely under their control (i.e. summons, magic borrowed from gods, sentient weapons, etc.). If a full fusion occurs and one personality is dominant, the dominant character has access to that fusion. If an entirely new being is created, the plot fusion is illegal.
i.e. Dhoulmagus, Leopold, SH2 Saki, Jecht, FE8 Lyon, Luc's True Wind Rincar, Barbarossa's Sovereign Rincar, Yuna's non-Yojimbo/Magus summons, Garnet/Eiko's summons, BoFs Ryu's non-berserk dragon forms, Yuri's Fusions, XG Gears, TotA Dist, SN Revya/Gig, FFT Lucavi can form-change where applicable (I think of the Lucavi as ranked since 90% of the fights against these FFT characters have the Lucavi in control)
Counter-example: GS Fusion Dragon (Menardi/Saturos), VP2 Valkyrie (Alicia/L/H/S), BoF PC fusions, CC Serge can't use his Dark Serge boss form, Wiegraf (you actually fight against non-controlled Wiegraf, so he's stuck using this horrible form since he's "Wiegraf" not "Belias" - I may reconsider this later), FE8 Formotiis (similar situation)

Mecha: XG characters probably don't want their Gears, but I'm going to look at XG characters as having their choice between fighting in a Gear (compared against all other Gear-characters' averages) or fighting on foot (compared against the current average). Yes, this inflates some XG characters, but I'm okay with this as it reflects who you would use in-game at different points in the game.
e.g. XG, XSs, SRWs?

Multiple Unique Forms: In games where a character has multiple legal (unique) builds to choose from, all endgame builds are legal and these characters have formchoice. However, once they are forced to use a certain form for a DL season, they must remain in that form. This also applies to characters from multiple ranked games in a series.
e.g. SD3 classes, DQ8 weaponskills, SaGaF weaponskills, Bosses with multiple appearances, PCs ranked from multiple games in a series (Suikos, Dis, XSs, VPs, AtLs, BoFs)

Unranked Forms: If a character has another form from an unranked game **that is of the same division as they are currently in**, they may opt to use this form. Note that this form must without a doubt be the same character. Note that 'within the same division' means +/- 1.0 from their current numeric division ranking. If it's a boss cameo form, scaled to a PC party meant to fight them and not endgame levels because trying to take things to endgame levels forever is silly.
e.g. GS characters, FF remake forms, Tales Narikiri Dungeon titles forms, SO remake forms
counter-examples: Tri-Ace/Tales/N1 super-boss cameo forms (unless the scaled super-boss is still of the same division as their ranked form), CC Guile is NOT Magus, Hrist cannot use her VP1 form for any reason as it is too -low- of a division (probably not important, even for status immunity... but this is an example for academic purposes)

Temp-scaling: Temps (and Temp-forms) are scaled to the party they were last with upon leaving. If a Temp becomes available again at Endgame with the same levels as when they left, they are considered PCs and generally not allowed access to their 'Temp-form'. If their levels/abilities/etc have changed in the interim, they may be allowed access to their 'Temp-form'.
e.g. FF4r PCs, Grandias, Lunars, Lufia2, WA4, PS4, etc....
e.g. FFT Alma has her Temp form and her Endgame form. I allow her access to either form (she probably never wants her Temp form, but whatever. She's also not ranked, but I couldn't think of a better example.)

PCHP: PCHP is basically average HP for a PC cast. A cast of 3 with 50, 100, and 150 would have a "PCHP" value of 100.The reason we use that 2.5 number is because we generally assume (well, most of us) that an average damage attack from a PC cast deals 40% to average durability.

Boss HP: The average amount of damage that one party can deal to the boss in one round is the 'base unit' of HP a boss has. (Total Boss HP)/'Base unit' = # of rounds of average damage needed to KO the boss.

Boss PCHP: You'll often see people saying things like "X Boss has 3PCHP". This means that if you take the boss' HP and divide by average damage per round, you wind up with a value of 7.5. Take the AtL2 Dark One for example. He has 10000 HP. Average damage for PCs at endgame is ~160. You have 5 PCs. So 160*5 = 800 damage per round. 10000/800 = 12.5. The Dark One's HP would last through 12.5x rounds of "average damage". Dividing by 2.5 gives us 5, which is the number people would use for his PCHP. (The Dark One also has sick defenses, but you address that separately from HP). One caveat: Some people assume a set number of cast members against a boss for scaling instead of everyone in the cast, so they might use 3 instead of 5 or something.

Boss Support: All Boss-support starts off dead, but can be revived to help out if possible in the boss' home game. This will take a boss' turn. This is legal as it is akin to Yuna's summoning.
e.g. DDS Jenna's last form

Boss vs. averages: The PC level at which I compare bosses is the level that you would normally be at when progressing through the game.  Sidequests included, but grinding not.  No escaping or anything like that either.

Level (dis)Advantages: If a character joins the cast at a significantly higher level than the rest of the cast and the experience system is such that this advantage will be notable at endgame, then that character will be taken at a higher level in the averages. Similarly, extremely late joining or underlevelled PCs will be taken at a lower level in the averages.
e.g. AtL1 PCs, Suikos PCs, FE7 Nino

Skill Levelling: If skills and abilities in a game increase in power/effect through a levelling system, then generally these are taken at max power level if it is reasonable in-game to do so. If it is unreasonable to fully max skill levels, then an appropriate increase is chosen (generally 50% of max level). The aim is to portray the skills close to in-game performance if max level is unreasonable.
e.g. Disgaea skill/weapon levels, Grandia specials/magic/weapon levels, SOs skills/abilities, Tales skills/magic, FF9 Quina/Zidane/Freya


Team stuff: In any kind of team setting, all team effects work between members of the same cast. Including MT/GT effects. In games where team effects are non-character specific, the team effect will work with extra-game team members.
e.g. Suiko Unites/Rune combo magic, FE Triangle attack/supports boost, WA4/5 Hex buffs/team attacks, SaGaF combinations, S4 Rush, PS4 team attacks, Dis Lift/Throw/Combos, CT/CC double/triple techs, CC Field Effects, BoFs fusions/combos, SH combos, FFX character switching, LoD team transform field


BIG EDIT: Plot claim stuff that I'm allowing.

Plot Claim guidelines:
If a character is ever directly handed an item/equip/ability in a plot scene, it is legal. If said item was stated as being directly for another character instead, this item is only legal for that character.
If an item/equip/ability is found in a specific character's belongings (their home, backpack, ship, etc.), that character has legal claim to it.
If an item/equip/ability requires a certain character to obtain, the item is legal for that character. This discludes the main in many cases as s/he will be the onscreen character.
If a character is ever shown holding or using the item/equip/ability in a plot scene, then the item is legal for that character.
If a character is ever shown using abilities or effects of an item/equip, it is assumed that they have access to all abilities/effects granted by an item/equip.
If only one character is capable of using an item/equip/ability when it is found, it is legal for that character.
If another game in a series indicates that a character has claim to an item/equip/ability, it is legal for that character.
Innate or high-level affinity for an item/equip/ability may be considered as supplementary plot claim, but on its own is insufficient. (tentative)
Initial equipment may be extrapolated to determine endgame equipment in certain cases (tentative).

Plot claims for items/equips/skills are generally allowed, even weak claims. However, this is decided on a case-by-case basis.
e.g. (these examples are ones that I'm considering allowing, but want to hear arguments for/against) FF7 materia (Yuffie's Leviathan, Cloud's Deathblow?), WA3, WA5 Mediums, GS Djinn, SaGaF weapons, VP1 hometown equips (Arngrim/DragonSlayer, Belenus/Pressed Flower, etc), G3 guardian orbs, WAo Guardians, FF6 summons/equips (Locke/Phoenix Cave stuff, Terra/Maduin, Celes/Palidor, Cyan/Alexander, there might be others?), S1 Cleo Fire rune, FF8 (Squall/Shiva/Quetz, Rinoa/Leviathan), Lufias (L2 magic based on L1 prologue forms)

Specific storebought skills nonsense:
CC characters can equip one of any -storebought- element of their innate alignment. (Legal due to minor plot claim/minor gameplay claim) Any initial elements are also legal. If there are any elements that can only be obtained by using a specific character, these should be included due to 'plot claim'.
Suikoden III/V characters can equip any storebought rune for which they have an S rank in the related magic. (Minor plot claim/minor gameplay claim). Obviously initial runes are legal.
Lufia2 characters can use any semi-unique spells (none of these have a DL use). Lufia2 mains have a plot claim to their Lufia1 spells (Maxim, Selan, Artea). Obviously initials and uniques are legal. I've decided to -not- allow the Fire and ID spells after all, they just aren't unique enough for me.
FF1 characters can use all semi-unique storebought spells.

Grandia characters can use spells that less than 50% of the cast can learn (semi-unique claim). (see list) Obviously unique and initial spells are legal.
FF8 characters get no Para-magic.
SH2 characters get initial Crests and any Crests that are obtained with a certain character (e.g. Blanca's claim to the Wolf Bout sidequest crest Zagan). See list.
Lunar2 characters have access to some plot claim Crests.
Pokemon might have semi-unique/gameplay claim storebought stuff, and plot claim stuff, but I don't know it well enough to comment. Meeple wants to chime in?
Some questions!

Status includes ID checking - which games treat ID as status? Which games treat stat breaks as 'status'?
Allowing storebought Elements to CC characters based on alignment?
Minerva and Bahamut Tear-like situation, need more example before deciding.
Rinoa's claim to Leviathan - are there any other situations like this?
ARPG blocking, invincibility - how to represent it?

EDIT (5/28/09) : Reworked this a little. Added some things, re-organized so that similar topics were together.

-Djinn

[Clear Tranquil]

*nodnods* Interesting stuffs Djinn, nice to hear your thoughts as usual.

Team stuff: In any kind of team setting (generally Nyarlie's dungeon), all team effects work between members of the same cast. Including MT/GT effects. In games where team effects are non-character specific, the team effect will work with extra-game team members.
e.g. Suiko Unites/Rune combo magic, FE Triangle attack/supports boost, WA4/5 Hex buffs/team attacks, SaGaF combinations, S4 Rush, PS4 team attacks, Dis Lift/Throw/Combos, CT/CC double/triple techs, BoFs fusions, SH combos, FFX character switching, LoD team transform field

I see, I see. This means you allow Maria/Peppita's infinity juggle in Nyarlie's dungeon *nodnod* 

In ARPGs and RPGs that require 'skill' or 'timing' to achieve the best results, it is assumed that the player has the necessary skill to achieve max results.
e.g. ARPG combos, SHs Judgment ring, FFs non-random Slots effects, SMRPG timed hits, FF8 timed hits

I agree with this, I so, so agree with this.

Turn order - doubling possible for who? BoF4 weirdness. Grandia weirdness. ARPG weirdness.

Like I said before ARPG character speed is usually based on characters running a number of times around a field or so something so my view is that if a character starts off visibily slower (i.e Adray) and other characters faster (most of the SO3 besides Maria) then Adray will start off the battle slower than those said characters and get slightly faster as a duel goes on whilst the reverse will work for the other characters.

[Niu]

In ARPGs and RPGs that require 'skill' or 'timing' to achieve the best results, it is assumed that the player has the necessary skill to achieve max results.
e.g. ARPG combos, SHs Judgment ring, FFs non-random Slots effects, SMRPG timed hits, FF8 timed hits

Just a hypothetical situation, what happen if the skill required is like... mad I-No skill for Judy in ToV?

[DjinnAndTonic]

I'm pretty much defaulting to 'if it's intended to be possible to do in-game, then I'd allow it'. Thus, really difficult timing combos are allowed, but glitches like 'infinite combo loops' are not.

I see, I see. This means you allow Maria/Peppita's infinity juggle in Nyarlie's dungeon *nodnod*

Infinite skills are certainly not happening. However, I -would- allow them to combo their skills together if it provided any sort of bonus for them to do so (maybe some kind of damage boost or decreased cost?). Might allow them to chain their skills together uninterrupted as in... if Maria goes before an average speed opponent, I might allow Peppita to skip ahead of the average speeder and combo with Maria. But their combos have pretty definite ends on their own, so after one combo string from both of them, their 'turns' would end.

[Dhyerwolf]

On Items: I think WA Mystic is okay for items that aren't usuable, but I definetely disagree on normal items. After all, in theory every character in the game might want that healing, and just because someone can utilize better in game (Not even in a DL setting!) doesn't make it horribly legal. You mention later allowing semi-unique stuff, but technically the using of items isn't unique at all.

Limit Meters: LoL meter may carry over. Not 100% sure on this.

On distance: A lot of games that might have distance just might not have it applicable in any way. How could Disgaea lift and throwing have an effect in a duel? The only real hex effects that could matter would be in WA 5, since in WA 4...well, you could have elemental attacks for Arnaud, but which elements will he start with on the grid? What if the element he wants is what the opponent is standing on? Or alternately, you could have Jude wanting one but then not being able to hit his enemy from it. The randomness of it, combined with enemy placements makes it not really too DL applicable. In WA 5, the effects only need someone to be on an element, or in the case of the Sword Rune, the movement range is so stupid that unlike the more limited WA 4 movement, Hex elements are easier to take advantage of.
 
On Timed Hits: There are lot of things were taking them at max makes sense, but yeah, some things are just completely expert only. If something is only semi reliable, it definetely doesn't deserve as much credit.

On Focusing: Although a lot of people disagree, I don't think boss attacks where they can't fully focus unless you only have one PC alive should be able to in the either. Granted, I'm also not quite sure I'd let a triple acting boss use 3 ST attacks against a PC DL wise either.

On Semi Unique Skills: I'm assuming in listing G1, you mean separate spells have to be less than 50%. Well, even in endgame that's going to kill a lot of spells. 4 party members mean most spells are going to be covered twice. Probably the same with Lufia spells (Certainly the healing spells, I'd imagine).

On Guarding: Guarding doesn't necessarily have to waste an opponent's resources because they could just wait.

I don't think Relm's Control hits any immunity in game.

PCHP - 2.5x average, which balances limited resources, status, healing and buffing all to some degree.
Bosses - Level is pretty easy in most games. I assume you are fully exploring areas, not running, but not getting lost. PCHP is 2.5 turns of average damage from all PCs, just like with PC scaling.
Turn order - Most people assume anyone can double, although I am at times tempted to only allow people who can double or can be doubled to fall into these situations. The big thing here is how to consider Turn based speed. Personally, I don't put as much emphasis on it because I feel it tends to be less useful, especially with high variance.
Status includes ID checking - which games treat ID as status? Which games treat stat breaks as 'status'?
Unranked forms: Matter of opinion. Some people allow them, but I'd just go with the forms that actually were ranked (Since they were ranked for that level of power).

[Pyro]

DL Interpretation Guidelines:

Items: Unique character skills that involve the use of items are legal for that character. However, they will have a limited supply of items (generally, no more than 10 of each). If it is a battle system quirk that only one character (the main) has access to items, it does not make items 'unique' to him/her.
e.g. FFX Rikku, FFs Chemist, WAs Mystic, AIs Alchemists,
counter-examples: P3, DQ4o

Generally agree with this.

Limit Meters: If a character -can- start a battle with a full Limit Meter, then they will start a duel with a Limit Meter as high as 50%.
e.g. FF7, TotA, Lufia2, Lunar Legend, S4 Rush, ToS, LoD, ToV,
Exceptions: FF7, due to Limit Levels can start with a 50% Lv4, 75% lv3, or 100% lv2/1; LoD can start with 50% of their TOTAL Dragoon gauge.
Counter-examples: WA3,4,5 FP, SoA SP, LoL Spirit

LoL Spirit should be 50% too. Other that I generally agree, but with the exception that FF7 limits of all levels start at 50%. The difficulty of getting them is represented in the actual fight... how much damage they must take to get them off.

If the battle system gives a character a weakness, that weakness carries over into the DL. If the character is able to take advantage of this same weakness against enemies in their own game, this ability also transfers to duelling rules.
e.g. SO3 MP Death, DDS/P3 Press turns, CC Field effect, EB rolling HP?
MP Death: Exists in SO3 and FF6... how these two interact is a mystery.

I don't agree with allowing DDS PCs to press turn if hitting weakness. Elemental weaknesses are defined by the one with the weakness, not the one hitting the weakness. CC Weaknesses are only 1.25 or so, so even a WA PC is getting a 1.25 bonus, even if WA had 3x elemental weaknesses in their home game.

For ARPGs, I generally see movement speed as indicative of turn speed to a degree. Turn speed is generally average, but movement speed spread is used to determine the outcome of ties. Effectively, this means all ARPG characters' speed falls between 1.11x average speed and 0.89x average speed. Exceptionally speedy types like Guy would be 1.11x average speed while slow-casting mages all probably hover around 0.9x speed.
e.g. SO2, 3, ToP, ToD, ToE, ToS, TotA, KH, RS

Movement speed doesn't work well, but you mentioned mages vs. fast fighters, and I can generally agree with that as a tie-breaker.

For SRPGs/ARPGs/TB-systems which incorporate 'distance' in some way, I try to incorporate distance where it matters.
e.g. FE counters/weaknesses, WA4/5 hex elements, Dis lift/throw, Tales/SO flying/jumping/running/comboing, OB, VPs,

melee/ranged is generally considered for these. Tales jumping and so on... not so much.  I just stop at melee/ranged (and "how ranged" in some cases)

In ARPGs and RPGs that require 'skill' or 'timing' to achieve the best results, it is assumed that the player has the necessary skill to achieve max results.
e.g. ARPG combos, SHs Judgment ring, FFs non-random Slots effects, SMRPG timed hits, FF8 timed hits

I assume that the player is reasonably proficient. Not a master. See Niu's comments on Judy.

Focusing: If a normally-MT spell/skill can be focused on a single character in-game, then it can be focused in the DL for the same effect.
e.g. FFs,

This.

When it comes to unique skills/equips, even if they are beyond endgame levels, they are legal for the duelist.
e.g. WA4, ToP, VP1, XG, LoD, LoL, GS, G1

I take this more as a case-by-case basis and determine if its reasonable or not. Lvl 99 Ultima for Terra? Nein. A skill thats 3 levels above where I would consider endgame? Fair enough.

Semi-unique skills/equips that are abundant (storebought or findable or enough exist in-game for those who -can- use it) are legal. A skill/equip is considered semi-unique only if less than 50% of the cast can use/learn it.
e.g. G1 magic, L2 magic, FF1 magic,
Counter-example: Suikoden runes

L2 Magic isn't unique at all. It has a few spells that can't be used by a PC maybe, but all in all everyone not named Guy/Dekar can use everything. G1 Magic is pseudo-unique, I'll grant but still kinda iffy. I generally agree with FF1 magic.

Initial equips/skills are always allowed. If initial equips can grant further skills, these skills are also legal.
e.g. FF7 materia, WA3/5 Mediums, SoA elements, SaGaF weaponskills/statboosts, G2 Mana Eggs, FFX Sphere Grid

No. I don't agree with letting, say, a storebought physical damage boosting accessory being legal just because you come equipped with it and everyone else has to equip it to get the effect. Thats not unique or indicative of worth in the slightest. I guess you could say "Oh well, its just the way things turned out!" but I'm not inclined to warp how good a cast is at relative damage/durability off of something silly and addressable like that. At the very least, scale the one with that equip to the rest of the cast using it (and don't include that accessory in the averages for the others) Its mostly just damage/durability stuff that grinds my gears here, as status attacks don't actively make the other cast members worse.

Plot claims for items/equips/skills are generally allowed, even weak claims. However, this is decided on a case-by-case basis.
e.g. (these examples are ones that I'm considering allowing, but want to hear arguments for/against) FF7 materia (Yuffie's Leviathan), WA3, WA5 Mediums, GS Djinn, SaGaF weapons, G3 guardian orbs, WAo summons, FF6 summons/equips (Locke/Phoenix Cave stuff, Terra/Maduin, Celes/Palidor, there might be others?)

I tend to ignore plot claims unless they are really, stupidly, insanely strong or something. They wind up being too much of a nuisance to deal with.

Plot elemental-typing: Elemental and physical/magical typing of skills defaults to any given documentation of a game. If a game lists a skill as a 'physical thunder' attack, the skill is physical and thunder, regardless of animation. This same skill will hit physical defense and thunder resistance where available. If a game has no specifically physical defense, it will hit whatever defensive stat is in place (RES, or directly hitting HP). If a defending game has no thunder resistance at all, the elemental aspect of the attack will not be resisted. But if the defending game's elemental system includes thunder as a subset of a larger element (such as Wind, Light, or Yellow), this elemental resistance will be hit. Plot animation will be taken into account for determining which elements are considered 'subsets' of other elements. This also applies to elemental weaknesses.
e.g. Everything?

If a game has no defense stat, that means everyone is average in that stat and I default attacks to hitting defense. BoF1 magic, for example, should not be ITD. No more than it should be ITE just because BoF1 has no magic evade. ITD/ITE is rare, it makes far more sense to say "Everyone has average evade/defense" than to say "All attacks in this game are ITD"

Specific elemental-typing nonsense:
e.g. S5's Sun element is separate from its Light element, this means that unless some Light-elemental skills in a defending game have an animation specifically relating to the Sun, an S5 Sun-elemental attack will NOT hit the defending game's Light resistance (or weakness). However, due to PKMN's Grass attacks having sun-related moves, S5 Sun element -would- hit Grass resistance (and weakness).
e.g. SO2 Star, Vacuum, etc.; PKMN Grass, Flying, Ground, Steel, etc.; CC colors, CT Light/Lighting; ToE Aurora?; Games where ID and Status are elemental; P3/FE physical-type elements; FE 'Anima' resistance;
Counter-example: PS2 has no elements or elemental resistance, therefore all elements hit PS2's version of physical/magical RES. PS2 'elemental' attacks are, likewise non-elemental.

This is generally a mess, but seems reasonable enough. I don't think I would make an attack elemental based off of animation if the game in question lacked elements (Eternal Sonata, for example), but I might make exceptions in the case of games where Thunder may be a combination of Fire/Wind, etc...

Guarding: If a game has a defend command, a character may defend as long as defending serves some other purpose besides draining the opposition's resources. This includes waiting for Regen effects or other Automatically-activated effects.
e.g. FF9 Doom+Defend, LoD Defend, LoL Spirit, WA3/4/5 FP meter charging, SoA SP charging,
counter-example: Using some kind of perfect defend to run an FE character out of weapon charges (40+ turns of defend... dear god)

Status-blocking for bosses: If a boss can simultaneously block all statuses from their home game, they can block any status effect.
*This only applies to statuses that could be blocked in the status' home game.
Status-blocking for PCs: If a character can simultaneously block all statuses from their home game, either innately, through equips, or through skills, they can immune all status effects.
*This only applies to statuses that could be blocked in the status' home game.
*Instant Death is generally considered a Status Effect. Stat defuffing is not, in most cases.
e.g. Everything.
Counter-example: Grandia (Liete's Enclose cannot be blocked by any means in-game that I remember, Millenia's Spell-Binding Eye)

Works.

Specific status nonsense:
e.g. Relm's Control ability hits Charm/Confuse immunity.

I don't think it does, actually. Hits a specific Control immunity, I thought.

Equipment Breaking/Stealing: Legal for how it works in-game. If opponent cannot be without a weapon in their home-game, then they are immune. If opponent can switch equips during battle, then they may take a turn to equip a new weapon. If a character already has multiple weapons equipped, this will not take an extra turn, obviously (FE).
e.g. FFT, FF6, FEs

Generally agree. FE doesn't have multiple weapons equipped though, they just can re-equip on the fly, which is something I should allow any cast if I allow it to FE, I think.

Forced Retreat moves that do not give EXP/rewards after battle are illegal.
e.g. Lunar BDG, FF6 X-zone, FF9 Petrify

I think I consider whether these can win set encounters or not. FF6 X-Zone, for reference, DOES give Exp.

Damage scaling lower limit: No matter how high an opponent's defense, a character cannot deal less than 1% PCHP damage with a hit that connects (if it isn't absorbed/nulled).
e.g. Dekar's DEF stat is incredibly high, but a Mint staff-whack will still deal 1% of his maxHP. (only 99 more staff-whacks to go!)

Strongly disagree. Damage below 1 IS possible, and this should be realized. Myrrh's defense, for example, would utterly null Mint's little staff whack (extreme, extreme, EXTREME example but you get the picture).

Plot fusions: Characters are allowed access to any abilities that is innately theirs. They are allowed access to any abilities where the power of another being is completely under their control (i.e. summons, magic borrowed from gods, sentient weapons, etc.). If a full fusion occurs and one personality is dominant, the dominant character has access to that fusion. If an entirely new being is created, the plot fusion is illegal.
i.e. Luc's True Wind Rincar, Yuna's non-Yojimbo/Magus summons, Garent/Eiko's summons, RyuAll's non-berserk dragon forms
Counter-example: GS Fusion Dragon (Menardi/Saturos), BoF PC fusions

I don't see why Luc's True Wind Rincar would be legal, but everything else looks good. What the heck is RyuAll, though?

Temp-scaling: Temps (and Temp-forms) are viewed from when they leave the party. If a Temp becomes available again at Endgame with the same levels as when they left, they are considered PCs and generally not allowed access to their 'Temp-form'. If their levels/abilities/etc have changed in the interim, they may be allowed access to their 'Temp-form'.
e.g. FF4r PCs, Grandias, Lunars, Lufia2, WA4, PS4, etc....

I don't get that last bit. If they reappear and are usable endgame, thats probably what should be taken for the DL barring very special circumstances (sacrificed power or something).

Scaling - in general, how to do it?

For bosses? Generally take average damage against them per round and divide their HP by that. That right there is a benchmark for their durability... how many shots of average damage they can take. People round here tend to convert this to "PCHP" by dividing by 2.5. See below.

PCHP - in general, what is it?

PCHP is basically average HP for a PC cast. A cast of 3 with 50, 100, and 150 would have a "PCHP" value of 100. You'll often see people saying things like "X Boss has 3PCHP". This means that if you take the boss' HP and divide by average damage per round, you wind up with a value of 7.5. Take the AtL2 Dark One for example. He has 10000 HP. Average damage for PCs at endgame is ~160. You have 5 PCs. So 160*5 = 800 damage per round. 10000/800 = 12.5. The Dark One's HP would last through 12.5x rounds of "average damage". Dividing by 2.5 gives us 5, which is the number people would use for his PCHP. (The Dark One also has sick defenses, but you address that separately from HP). One caveat: Some people assume a set number of cast members against a boss for scaling instead of everyone in the cast, so they might use 3 instead of 5 or something.

The reason we use that 2.5 number is because we generally assume (well, most of us) that an average damage attack from a PC cast deals 40% to average durability. I think there is a topic somewhere that explains it far better than I could but I don't know where that is right now...

[Talaysen]

Relm certainly can't Control FF6 bosses, so it has to hit some kind of immunity.  Don't remember if it was separate from confuse or not.

[hinode]

Control immunity is a special flag in FF6.  For instance, from Master Zed's monster statistics guide:

278 FlameEater

Found at: Thamasa (burning house)

Level: 26  HP: 8400  MP: 480  Exp: 0  GP: 0

Bat.Pwr : 13     Speed   : 34     Hit Rate: 130     Mag.Pwr : 7
Defense : 105     Evade   : 20     Mag.Def : 150     M.Block : 0

Steal: Flame Sabre (common)
Win:
Morph: Antidote, Green Cherry, Eyedrop, Soft
Morph miss %: 100%

Absorb: Fire
Nullify: Bolt, Poison, PearlEarth
Weakness: Ice

Sketch: Special, Battle
Control: Battle, Special

Status:
Protected against: Blind, Zombie, Poison, Magitek, Clear, Imp, Petrify, Death
                   Condemned, Near Fatal, Image, Mute, Berserk, Confuse, Seizure, Sleep, Stop

Special Info: Can't Suplex, Dies if MP = 0, Can't Run, Can't Control

[Dark Holy Elf]

Items: Generally, if a required item isn't storebought, I'm not likely to allow it, unless it is EXTREMELY COMMON (such as Potion Berries in WA3, etc.). Being a steal off one or two specific enemies isn't good enough for me, which makes Rikku emo.

Limit meters: I don't adopt the view set out by Djinn, but I am increasingly starting to favour it, and I may at some point in the future. Agreed with Pyro that LoL2 (and I assume LoL?) gets half spirit. Of course this rule does not apply to casts that can't store the guage before the battle, such as WA.

See Pyro for the note on DDS press turns; strongly agree there. Elemental weakness is a defender's property. I do view the press turn from critical hits the property of the attacker, though, as I would any critical hits (FE crits are 3x damage, MMXCM crits are ITD, etc.).

I'm not touching ARPG stuff today, though I will say that I take movement speed as a very strong indicator.

Speaking of movement and speed, I am this close to using Move (or more accurately, threat range, so a Brig mage is bad at this because they can't move and attack) as the DL speed stat for Disgaea, FE, and Brig. Only would affect the first turn, though... which is already how I view games in which there is no reward whatsoever for higher speed past the first turn, i.e. SMRPG and BoF5. (Games like BoF1 do have a reward, in that the faster PC knows the state of the battle, and I give this CTB credit.)

On moves that require skill, I assume a fairly high degree of skill, but not unlimited. This mostly comes into play for things like Mario's Ultra Jump - I am not assuming 100 bounces.

I generally allow all aftergame skills because it avoids the problem of judging what level I consider reasonable... but I'm less sure on this one than I used to be.

For the spells things, less than 50% of the cast sounds great! Now, do note:

-The only L2 spells that can be used by less than half of the cast are holy spells. Fire is used by all except Maxim/Dekar/Guy (2/4 of final, 4/7) overall, death used by all except Artea/Dekar/Guy (2/4 of final, 4/7 overall), everything else is even less restricted.
-FF1 Ruse, the spell that always offends me and singlehandedly is the reason I refuse to consider 3/6 spells for the cast, is, as I just alluded to, usable by half the cast, so no go.
-Less than half the final cast for G1 is 1/4. Which is what I'm inclined to allow. If you expand it to include the temps, then we need something as low as 3/8... which might be a few more spells. If someone documents which are which I'll allow 'em, maaybe.

I currently allow initial everything, but Pyro's arguments are pretty sound and this may change in the case of the White Rings and the Bracers of the world.

Plot claims? Biggest one I can think of I allow is Cleo's Fire Rune. I guess Micaiah's Nosferatu also works. Basically, in addition to the plot claim, I demand a sound gameplay backup - I should be really damn likely to give this PC this thing in-game, in addition to the PC getting it explicitly, rather than vague allusions that "giving it to them feels right" (Phoenix for Locke).

Pretty much every claim you listed I would not consider. Yuffie is a mediocre mage who is hardly first in line for a new summon materia, WA3 medium claims are laughable beyond Gallows' water (which, even if you disregard the fact he has it initial before losing it, would fall in the above category of plot backing + strong gameplay case, Mag booster for the game's mage and all), and I have no idea how you'd parcel out G3 Guardian Orbs, except perhaps Drak/Ulf and that has the opposite of a gameplay claim behind it. (Not to mention One Per Hour skills are obnoxious in the DL anyway.)

I thought Djinn's point on Control was that he made it hit Confuse immunity... which seems reasonable to me, since hardly any other games have a Control immunity to check. I don't currently allow Control, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to do so.

Anything that doesn't give a key reward is not a legal DL move to me, ever. The "win fixed encounters" argument Pyro puts forward is, frankly, crap, because there are lots of games where RUNNING AWAY does this.

Division defence always for me, so damage below 1 is never possible unless the defending character literally does this in-game (and it has to be everything they face, not just average damage, otherwise I'd be hyping Dheginsea for immunity to everything not ITD which is stupid).

Agree with Pyro's notes on fusions. I'm pretty lenient on plot fusion type things; if the fusion is clearly identifiable as a certain character at all I am inclined to allow it? Dhoulmagus, Leopold, Saki, Jecht, Lyon, XF's Disaster M., etc., are clearly identified as being themselves even if there's another will partially or entirely at work, and in all but Saki's case is giving them new, speshul powers.

On the other hand I don't consider Dist to be the robots he summons, nor would I consider True Rune Incarnations (and later Suikodens increasingly back me up on this, as S5's Sun Rune Incarnation fights you even without a bearer). I could be argued on Luc but fortunately it's pointless because the Orbs of the OTHER true runes are DEFINITELY not him so yeah that form just sucks.

Temps... aren't entirely scaled to when they leave to me. It's complicated, but basically, they're scaled against what the PCs in their party when they left.

For instance, the FF4 twins having 70% of Tellah's HP when they leave (and a third of Cecil's), means yes, they are epically horrible at durability, even though scaled to the time they wouldn't be so bad because it's a mage party with a really low average. Since I pretty much preserve the provided HP ratios in the DL, rather than compare them to a totally arbitrary average that is biased by who is in the party at the time, it means the twins are something like 40-45% PCHP (with Tellah managing about 60%!). This is why I consider them Light. <.<

Boss-wise, I belong to the category that thinks the number of hits means more than a nebulous concept of rounds. Personally, a SRW boss who would take four solid rounds of a dozen PCs bashing the shit out of him at full power is incomparably more durable than a solo boss that Cloud hits four times and then he keels over. Honestly I have trouble at an intuitive level with people who say otherwise. And then I throw in examples like the fact that Solo Vinsfeld, who is dying plotwise, has half the HP of real Vinsfeld (who faces three PCs)... and the scaling Pyro puts forward would have him be more durable, flying in the face of both the battle's real length in game and the plot surrounding it!

One scaling I have toyed with is to multiply boss HP by (number of meaningful characters in the boss battle, on either side)/(number of PCs in the battle), which addresses the issues the other side of this debate bring forward a bit better while reflecting in-game quite well, since of course the numerator, which also rises with number of PCs, will directly affect the length of the battle in-game.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I'm pretty sure the LoL1 Spirit meter does -not- carry over. Can't speak for LoL2. Of course, LoL1 Spirit meter starts higher and higher throughout the game, to the point where you no longer need to Spirit at the beginning of a battle to do your full combo.

Items: I see Dhyer's point about Mystic  being only an extention of using normal items - but in-game I generally only ever used items with Mystic, so it feels like a fair thing to allow to the WAs Mystic-users. They still have to go through the trouble of building up FP to use it -and- I slapped an item limit on them, it feels balanced.

Items: Generally, if a required item isn't storebought, I'm not likely to allow it, unless it is EXTREMELY COMMON (such as Potion Berries in WA3, etc.). Being a steal off one or two specific enemies isn't good enough for me, which makes Rikku emo.

Also, just after posting my list, I revised it slightly to this:
Items: Unique character skills that involve the use of items are legal for that character. However, they will have a limited supply of items (generally, no more than 10 of each, less so for more rare items, and non-replenishable items are illegal, unless they are unique to the character). If it is a battle system quirk that only one character (the main) has access to items, it does not make items 'unique' to him/her.
e.g. FFX Rikku, FFs Chemist, WAs Mystic, AIs Alchemists, FF6 Shadow
counter-examples: P3, DQ4o,

Item-casting: Characters may item-cast anything they have equipped, provided that they can item-cast equipped items in their home game. Alternately, if they can unequip their equipped items in-battle, they may do so to item-cast at the cost of losing their stat increases from the equipped item.
e.g. FF6, PS2,

FE doesn't have multiple weapons equipped though, they just can re-equip on the fly, which is something I should allow any cast if I allow it to FE, I think.

Weapon-breaking FE weapons. I assume that most people allow FE characters to have multiple copies of their storebought weapons? This means that when they have their weapon broken, the most it means is that they lose their counter-attack for that turn as for the next turn they will be just using the next weapon down. I guess this is more like equipping on the fly, which I would definitely allow if it's legal in-game for any game. Off hand, I think most games that allow you to change equipment during battle make you waste a turn to do so...

I should probably note that by allowing an LoD character to start with 50% of their total Dragoon gauge, I'm implying that all LoD characters can transform on their first turn.
Likewise, I still feel strongly about allowing FF7 characters to start varying degrees of Limit gauges based on level due to how relatively it is to build up and save the lower-level limits vs. the higher-level ones.
Also, how exactly are Limits gained in FF8? I know having low health is part of it... but it's been ages since I looked it up or cared. I remember that you could occasionally even use Limits at full health, so there's obviously something else at work here.

Relm's Control: since I'm allowing her access to Control no matter what (uniqueness and all that), I -could- see it as a super-status a la Enclose. But... since it -is- blockable in-game by 'Control immunity', I'm inclined to let it be blockable. The reason I allow it to be blockable by Confuse/Charm immunity is due to the Plot/animation-typing I do for elements. Similar to how I would allow multiple poison-type status effects (I know there are games that have multiple poison statuses, but I forget which) to all be blocked by poison immunity. Think of Control as level 3 Charmga or something...

For the spells things, less than 50% of the cast sounds great! Now, do note:

-The only L2 spells that can be used by less than half of the cast are holy spells. Fire is used by all except Maxim/Dekar/Guy (2/4 of final, 4/7) overall, death used by all except Artea/Dekar/Guy (2/4 of final, 4/7 overall), everything else is even less restricted.
-FF1 Ruse, the spell that always offends me and singlehandedly is the reason I refuse to consider 3/6 spells for the cast, is, as I just alluded to, usable by half the cast, so no go.
-Less than half the final cast for G1 is 1/4. Which is what I'm inclined to allow. If you expand it to include the temps, then we need something as low as 3/8... which might be a few more spells. If someone documents which are which I'll allow 'em, maaybe.

Pretty much exactly my intent with what DarkHolyElf is saying about semi-unique skills/equips. Though for the Lufia2 cast, I think I see 2/4 as good enough to be legal. In general, I suppose I should word that as '50% or less = semi-unique' to be consistent. Noting that Tia and Lexis are only being held to the point they leave. Selan/Arty/Maxim are obviously held against the final party.
Lufia2 semi-uniques would be
Spark, Fireball, Firebird for Selan-Arty-Tia-Lexis (Yay, now they can does spellz)
Perish, Destroy for Maxim-Selan-Tia-Lexis (50% ID, expensive)
Reset for Maxim (godly vs. puzzles!)
Light for Selan (godly vs. FE fog-of-war!)
Escape, Warp for Selan-Arty-Tia (only works outside of battles)
Deflect for Maxim-Arty-Tia (low accuracy silence only available in the Ancient Cave, but I'd allow it for all that they probably don't need it)
*Note, under Elfboy's interp of <50% for the whole cast, only Reset, Light, Escape/Warp, and Deflect are legal. (and only Deflect does anything)

*Note: There are more than enough Mana Eggs in Grandia for everyone who can to learn all four elements.
Grandia1 semi-uniques would be (4/8 for full cast or 2/4 final cast) (* if it fits 3/8 full cast, too) Sue/Gadwin are only held against Ju-Fe-Su-Ga team (when they leave).
BOOM! for Justin, Sue, Gadwin, Liete
*Crackle for Justin, Sue, Feena
*Cure for Justin, Sue, Feena
*Def-Loss for Justin, Sue, Rapp
*Freeze! for Justin, Liete (stops enemy movement)
*Magic Art for Liete (duh)
*POIZN for Rapp, Liete
*Runner for Feena, Rapp
*Stram for Rapp, Liete
*Time Gate for Feena (duh)
*WOW! for Feena, Gadwin, Rapp
*Zap! for Justin, Sue, Liete

*Alheal for Justin, Sue, Feena
*Alhealer for Feena, Liete
BOOM-POW! for Justin, Sue, Gadwin, Rapp
Burnstrike for Justin, Sue, Gadwin, Rapp
*Cold for Justin, Liete
*Craze for Rapp, Liete
*Gravity for Gadwin, Rapp, Liete
*Meteor Strike for Gadwin, Rapp, Liete
*Refresh for Sue, Feena
*Shhh! for Sue, Feena, Rapp
*Star Symphony for Liete (duh)
*Tree of Life for Feena (duh)
Tremor for Justin, Sue, Feena, Gadwin
Zap All for Justin, Sue, Rapp, Liete

*Enclose for Liete (duh)
*End of the World for Feena (duh)
*Fiora for Sue, Feena, Rapp (skill sealing)
Fireburner for Justin, Gadwin, Rapp, Liete
*GadZap for Justin, Liete
Howlnado for Justin, Sue, Rapp, Liete
*Protection for Sue, Feena, Liete
Resurrect for Justin, Sue, Feena, Liete
*Speedy for Sue, Feena, Rapp

For consistency, I would allow all of these spells (about 65% of all of Grandia's spellset), I would think that at least the starred spells should be legal for anyone who allows semi-uniques. It only really matters to give Rapp, Gadwin, and Justin access to Magic damage and probably turns Sue into a status whore/healer type.

If it gets to be a big deal, I can see dropping all this and sticking more strictly to the -less- than 50% of the cast = semi-unique as opposed to less/equal to 50%. But as of now, I'm okay with being generous in handing out spells, even FF1 Ruse, as offensive as it is.


WA4/5 HEX system: Personally, I just use a modified version of this to allow it to implemented in the DL. Basically, since only the WA character actually exists in a space where there are HEXes, only they can use them. Since there will always be more non-elemental HEXes than elemental, I assume the WA character will start in the middle HEX with no element and can waste their first turn to move to an element if they need to.
I can see arguments about an opponent moving onto the elemental HEX to stop the WA4 character. I would only allow this to characters who have movement abilities in their home game (SRPG/ARPGs) and this character is only moving to block the WA4 character, they receive no bonuses or weaknesses from the HEX. Of course, an opponent can only block one element, so this doesn't stop the WA4 character from using their first turn to move to a different element. WA5 characters obviously don't have to waste their first turn to do this. Likewise, ARPG/SRPG characters that can move and attack can still attack on their first turn after blocking the HEX.


Plot Fusions: Personally, I want to allow all of them. Saturos and Menardi BOTH form-change to Fusion Dragon upon defeat. I want to allow halved Suiko Unite Attacks and CT Double Techs, too. (I suppose you could one-third FE's Triangle attack, but that wouldn't do anything...) It sounds like it would add some more variety to certain characters' skillsets. I don't imagine that this view will have any support, but I wanted to throw it out there and see if it's been discussed before and what people thought of it.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, where would you put Avalon in terms of Plot Fusions? I seem to recall that he got hype for form-changing even though it seemed to me like his power wasn't really his own?

Agree with Pyro's notes on fusions. I'm pretty lenient on plot fusion type things; if the fusion is clearly identifiable as a certain character at all I am inclined to allow it? Dhoulmagus, Leopold, Saki, Jecht, Lyon, XF's Disaster M., etc., are clearly identified as being themselves even if there's another will partially or entirely at work, and in all but Saki's case is giving them new, speshul powers.

On the other hand I don't consider Dist to be the robots he summons, nor would I consider True Rune Incarnations (and later Suikodens increasingly back me up on this, as S5's Sun Rune Incarnation fights you even without a bearer). I could be argued on Luc but fortunately it's pointless because the Orbs of the OTHER true runes are DEFINITELY not him so yeah that form just sucks.

Ah, more people to add to my example list. Also, I would definitely see Dist's robots as legal due to them being completely under his control. I would also consider the Gears in Xenogears to be legal, for all that nobody wants to use them as it kills their versatility (except for maybe Elly and Maria?) and makes everyone average damage...
True Wind Rune Incarnation is definitely legal for Luc to me, even if he doesn't want it. It's pretty clearly under his power and a part of him. Other True Rune Incarnations may not be... obviously none of the others in S3... and S4 doesn't have a TRI. S5's TRI was controlled by Godwin, I thought? Beast Rune is just wild, obviously. And I'd say the Sovereign Rune Incarnation is under the Emperor's control. Did I miss any?

What the heck is RyuAll?

All BoF Ryus that transform using borrowed power of another dragon can still use that power because even though it's not 'his' innate power, he IS in complete control of it. Exceptions would be any berserked forms... Same idea with Yuna's Yojimbo and Magus Sisters summons.


Plot claims: The only one I would debate would be G3's Alfina/Drak claim, since she clearly uses it in a plot scene.
*I personally am not debating the legality of WA3 mediums, I'm just allowing them because I find the claims are just strong enough.
*Same with Yuffie's Leviathan, which... probably isn't something she wants unless she needs magic damage anyway (hits her HP, I believe).
*Oh, and I guess I need to add Cleo's Fire Rune to my list. Are there any other big Suikoden plot runes that I should know about?

FF8 - I know allowing any plot claim GFs would break the averages so badly, but I'm curious if anyone has any strong plot claims to any GFs here. I remember Shiva being in Squall's computer or something like that? And he had to specifically hunt down Ifrit for the SeeD test? Don't think there's any other plot claims? I might be okay with just making Squall (and by extension, Laguna?!) godly. It'd be better if everyone had at least one GF, since the whole skill system kind of revolves around it... (reminds me of WA3/5 now...)

Press Turns, I honestly don't know DDS well enough to make a decision on that. I'm not voting on DDS characters in official matches ATM anyway.

Speaking of movement and speed, I am this close to using Move (or more accurately, threat range, so a Brig mage is bad at this because they can't move and attack) as the DL speed stat for Disgaea, FE, and Brig. Only would affect the first turn, though... which is already how I view games in which there is no reward whatsoever for higher speed past the first turn, i.e. SMRPG and BoF5. (Games like BoF1 do have a reward, in that the faster PC knows the state of the battle, and I give this CTB credit.)

Oddly enough, Elf, I completely agree with your assessment of "Threat Range" being used to determine initiative for Dis, FE, and Brig characters. I'm adding it to my list. Still need some feedback on doubling and turn order before I finalize it, though.

Pyro: Eternal Sonata -does- have Elements... just only Dark and Light, which each hit a specific resistance in-game.

If a game has no defense stat, that means everyone is average in that stat and I default attacks to hitting defense. BoF1 magic, for example, should not be ITD. No more than it should be ITE just because BoF1 has no magic evade. ITD/ITE is rare, it makes far more sense to say "Everyone has average evade/defense" than to say "All attacks in this game are ITD"

I agree entirely with this. This is pretty much what I was -trying- to describe, I may need to re-word it.


More questions: What to do about Multi-part bosses? (e.g. Melfice, Jenna Angel, Emelious, etc.)
Should long-ranged SRPG mages have initiative? (e.g. Flonne, Brig mages, 5-range FE spells)
Allowing storebought Elements to CC characters based on alignment? (leaning no, but I haven't considered all the angles)
Are there enough high-level FE spells/weapons to go around under the semi-unique rules?
Minerva and Bahamut Tear-like situations, need more examples before I can decide.

-Djinn

[Clear Tranquil]

Infinite skills are certainly not happening.

I wasn't being serious >.>

That kind of hax could potentially break the dungeon. Although I think Millenia just did already with Spellbinding Eye but eh.

However, I -would- allow them to combo their skills together if it provided any sort of bonus for them to do so (maybe some kind of damage boost or decreased cost?). Might allow them to chain their skills together uninterrupted as in... if Maria goes before an average speed opponent, I might allow Peppita to skip ahead of the average speeder and combo with Maria. But their combos have pretty definite ends on their own, so after one combo string from both of them, their 'turns' would end.

*nods*

Yeah that would work for setting up a combo but eh without the infinity to set up for increased damage over time it's probably not going to be worth it - Powerdanced Faerie Friend chains and powerdanced Scatter Beam already do insane damage on their own.

This is the infinity I was referring to btw -

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4EqkZ8OEXko

Only in Maria/Peppita's case it would be replacing Fayt's flipkicks for Maria's Aiming Device to go with Peppita's Charge. Hax? *nodnod* Try it yourself in game just for fun~

I assume that the player is reasonably proficient. Not a master. See Niu's comments on Judy.

I see. Whilst we're here then how do people see character counter attacks that are enhanced by player control? For example Peppita's counter attacks are very player interactive with the player knowing how to wait before initiating a counter attack ensuring the invincibility frame lasts through the move (for some moves if you counter too soon the IFrame will run out and you take some damage) That said the AI *can* counter but I need to see if it can for example counter chain through Insanity Prelude for example which the player can do.

Another thing how do people see ARPG invincibility moves (Repede's Gale Dog/Maximum Dog, Fayt's Side Kick, Peppita's extended invincibility frames through dance spam, etc)? I know Pyro has addressed Repede before already and Tallychu mentioned something about the invincibility not triggering until their next turn, anyone have any other thoughts? Also Luther's Insanity Prelude - I assume people don't allow him to just spam IP over and over since he's invincible during it >.>

Personally I think I allow invincibility if the character is still capable of doing damage during said invincibility?

[hinode]

One idea I've been toying around with lately is allowing storebought attack magic for casts like Lufia 2 and FF7, as an analogy to storebought weaponry.  This would better reflect in-game performance - especially for a game like Lufia 2, where magic just dominates in-game - and make the magic stat of mages relevant in the DL instead of getting screwed if they lack good initial setups.

The problem with storebought magic in general is that it let entire casts live off universal, storebought skillsets - FF7 would probably be the biggest offender here, with full healing, Haste, and lots of accurate status turning an cast into High Heavies regardless of anything unique to the character.  But if you restrict the storebought spells to attack magic only, any serious improvement in duelling capabilities would be reflected in the damage average, so you'd primarily just shift the power around between members of a cast.  The only universal benefit to the cast would be hitting more elemental weaknesses and a second defensive stat, but those tend to be minor things in the long run.  DDS/Persona 3 casts hate you forever if you do this, though.

Dunno if I'd actually allow this, but felt like posting this idea to get feedback.

[superaielman]

Items: Unique character skills that involve the use of items are legal for that character. However, they will have a limited supply of items (generally, no more than 10 of each). If it is a battle system quirk that only one character (the main) has access to items, it does not make items 'unique' to him/her.
e.g. FFX Rikku, FFs Chemist, WAs Mystic, AIs Alchemists,
counter-examples: P3, DQ4o

Unique only for me. RS/P3 silliness where the only character you control can use items.. that can fuck right off. I generally give them as many items as you can reasonably afford in game, which is pretty close to 'way too much' in 99% of the cases.

Limit Meters: If a character -can- start a battle with a full Limit Meter, then they will start a duel with a Limit Meter as high as 50%.
e.g. FF7, TotA, Lufia2, Lunar Legend, S4 Rush, ToS, LoD, ToV,
Exceptions: FF7, due to Limit Levels can start with a 50% Lv4, 75% lv3, or 100% lv2/1; LoD can start with 50% of their TOTAL Dragoon gauge.
Counter-examples: WA3,4,5 FP, SoA SP, LoL Spirit

Start with 0 unless it's a system where they start with more every battle, ala WA3. Strongly dislike giving out starting limit/IP/whatever bars in general or scaling the gains.

If the battle system gives a character a weakness, that weakness carries over into the DL. If the character is able to take advantage of this same weakness against enemies in their own game, this ability also transfers to duelling rules.
e.g. SO3 MP Death, DDS/P3 Press turns, CC Field effect, EB rolling HP?
MP Death: Exists in SO3 and FF6... how these two interact is a mystery.

Defensive. Press turns work against DDS PC's, not for them, etc. SO3 PC's can be MP killed, but they can't MP kill PC's from other games.  Rolling HP sounds like something I'd toss myself, but who knows till If inish that game.

For ARPGs, I generally see movement speed as indicative of turn speed to a degree. Turn speed is generally average, but movement speed spread is used to determine the outcome of ties. Effectively, this means all ARPG characters' speed falls between 1.11x average speed and 0.89x average speed. Exceptionally speedy types like Guy would be 1.11x average speed while slow-casting mages all probably hover around 0.9x speed.
e.g. SO2, 3, ToP, ToD, ToE, ToS, TotA, KH, RS

Attack/movement speed. Sort of a common sense thing for me- Dias is fast in game, he's fast in the DL. Same thing with someone like Guy from TotA.

For SRPGs/ARPGs/TB-systems which incorporate 'distance' in some way, I try to incorporate distance where it matters.
e.g. FE counters/weaknesses, WA4/5 hex elements, Dis lift/throw, Tales/SO flying/jumping/running/comboing, OB, VPs,

Ignore distances with the exception of counter attacks.

In ARPGs and RPGs that require 'skill' or 'timing' to achieve the best results, it is assumed that the player has the necessary skill to achieve max results.
e.g. ARPG combos, SHs Judgment ring, FFs non-random Slots effects, SMRPG timed hits, FF8 timed hits

Yeah. I can't hit an LoD addition to save my life, but I'm not going to suddenly not allow them to hit additions in the DL. As far as SRPG's go, it's (again) common sense. Hitting moves=cool. INFINITE 100% SUPAR JUGGLING COMBO OF DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM~=no.

Focusing: If a normally-MT spell/skill can be focused on a single character in-game, then it can be focused in the DL for the same effect.
e.g. FFs,

PC's yes, bosses no. Fuck off, Daos/Loki.

When it comes to unique skills/equips, even if they are beyond endgame levels, they are legal for the duelist.
e.g. WA4, ToP, VP1, XG, LoD, LoL, GS, G1

Skills, yes. Equips, if it's completely unique and doesn't involve illegal methods of gaining it, yes.

Semi-unique skills/equips that are abundant (storebought or findable or enough exist in-game for those who -can- use it) are legal. A skill/equip is considered semi-unique only if less than 50% of the cast can use/learn it.
e.g. G1 magic, L2 magic, FF1 magic,
Counter-example: Suikoden runes

Case by case basis.  Never sure about G1 magic, L2 magic is no on a lot of levels, FF1 magic.. sure, why not.

Initial equips/skills are always allowed. If initial equips can grant further skills, these skills are also legal.
e.g. FF7 materia, WA3/5 Mediums, SoA elements, SaGaF weaponskills/statboosts, G2 Mana Eggs, FFX Sphere Grid

Yes with the exception of Saga Frontier, where I make characters pick one path and stick with it.

Plot claims for items/equips/skills are generally allowed, even weak claims. However, this is decided on a case-by-case basis.
e.g. (these examples are ones that I'm considering allowing, but want to hear arguments for/against) FF7 materia (Yuffie's Leviathan), WA3, WA5 Mediums, GS Djinn, SaGaF weapons, G3 guardian orbs, WAo summons, FF6 summons/equips (Locke/Phoenix Cave stuff, Terra/Maduin, Celes/Palidor, there might be others?)

Almost always illegal. Cleo's a good example there.

Guarding: If a game has a defend command, a character may defend as long as defending serves some other purpose besides draining the opposition's resources. This includes waiting for Regen effects or other Automatically-activated effects.
e.g. FF9 Doom+Defend, LoD Defend, LoL Spirit, WA3/4/5 FP meter charging, SoA SP charging,
counter-example: Using some kind of perfect defend to run an FE character out of weapon charges (40+ turns of defend... dear god)

Consider defend commands to be flatly illegal. There's a couple of knockoff versions (SoA spirit isn't a defend command) that get by, but otherwise no.

Status-blocking for bosses: If a boss can simultaneously block all statuses from their home game, they can block any status effect.
*This only applies to statuses that could be blocked in the status' home game.
Status-blocking for PCs: If a character can simultaneously block all statuses from their home game, either innately, through equips, or through skills, they can immune all status effects.
*This only applies to statuses that could be blocked in the status' home game.
*Instant Death is generally considered a Status Effect. Stat defuffing is not, in most cases.
e.g. Everything.
Counter-example: Grandia (Liete's Enclose cannot be blocked by any means in-game that I remember, Millenia's Spell-Binding Eye)

Generally need proof for a boss to be hit by a status. Lol Gau's nightshade rage, et

Equipment Breaking/Stealing: Legal for how it works in-game. If opponent cannot be without a weapon in their home-game, then they are immune. If opponent can switch equips during battle, then they may take a turn to equip a new weapon. If a character already has multiple weapons equipped, this will not take an extra turn, obviously (FE).
e.g. FFT, FF6, FEs

Don't allow equip switching unless it's a game (FE) where it's speifically set up to rotate weapons.Otherwise breaks work as in game.

Forced Retreat moves that do not give EXP/rewards after battle are illegal.
e.g. Lunar BDG, FF6 X-zone, FF9 Petrify

May allow something like petrify but moves that make you run away are illegal period for me.

Damage scaling lower limit: No matter how high an opponent's defense, a character cannot deal less than 1% PCHP damage with a hit that connects (if it isn't absorbed/nulled).
e.g. Dekar's DEF stat is incredibly high, but a Mint staff-whack will still deal 1% of his maxHP. (only 99 more staff-whacks to go!)

Damage can tink.

[DjinnAndTonic]

One scaling I have toyed with is to multiply boss HP by (number of meaningful characters in the boss battle, on either side)/(number of PCs in the battle), which addresses the issues the other side of this debate bring forward a bit better while reflecting in-game quite well, since of course the numerator, which also rises with number of PCs, will directly affect the length of the battle in-game.

Elf: Sounds interesting in theory... but what does it end up doing in practice? Any major ranking changes that come to mind?

One idea I've been toying around with lately is allowing storebought attack magic for casts like Lufia 2 and FF7, as an analogy to storebought weaponry.  This would better reflect in-game performance - especially for a game like Lufia 2, where magic just dominates in-game - and make the magic stat of mages relevant in the DL instead of getting screwed if they lack good initial setups.

The problem with storebought magic in general is that it let entire casts live off universal, storebought skillsets - FF7 would probably be the biggest offender here, with full healing, Haste, and lots of accurate status turning an cast into High Heavies regardless of anything unique to the character.  But if you restrict the storebought spells to attack magic only, any serious improvement in duelling capabilities would be reflected in the damage average, so you'd primarily just shift the power around between members of a cast.  The only universal benefit to the cast would be hitting more elemental weaknesses and a second defensive stat, but those tend to be minor things in the long run.  DDS/Persona 3 casts hate you forever if you do this, though.

Dunno if I'd actually allow this, but felt like posting this idea to get feedback.

I could see supporting this view pretty easily since it only applies to storebought magic. You're putting the stipulation of "attack magic only" on it, too, so that could balance things out. Honestly, if I was to allow it due to being storebought, I would just allow everything that was storebought and let it inflate the FF7 cast. I think CC characters would love you if you allowed this as well. (Maybe not with scaling issues?)

It honestly doesn't sound that different from how entire casts end up wearing the same armor simply because nothing's unique. Or how a lot of FE/ShF characters are basically carbon copies of one another except for minor stat differences? It's also not unusual for casts to have a lot of similarities simply by virtue of all coming from the same game and carrying battle system quirks with them. I guess you could consider the Materia system and the CC Element system as 'quirks'.

I personally would be fine with allowing this, but I'd want to see some stat topics to see what kind of differences crop up in games this effects.

I also considered this idea while thinking about how storebought skills seemed like they should be allowed in the same manner that storebought equips are. My solution was to allow 'semi-uniques' instead of fully allowing all storebought skills... though the "attack-magic-only" stipulation is another workable balancing measure.

I think there are a few people in the DL who already do something like this anyway...?

ClearTranquil: ARPG invincibility frames have me stumped... care to elaborate a bit more on how it works in SO3? And do you know if there are other games that have this?

-Djinn

[Shale]

Items: Characters can do whatever they want with items they equip for the fight, including itemcasting and Mystic. All non-equipped items get a flat "no," which makes Rikku a terrible Light as far as I'm concerned.

Equips: Uniques/storeboughts/auto-equips only, no plot claims. I don't allow storebought accessories, but otherwise place no limits on statusblocking beyond what's possible in-game.

Scaling: Where bosses are concerned, I don't. Bosses get their full HP in a duel - exactly their full HP, with durability and damage not scaled up so their midgame 2HKOs are still 2HKOs against endgame enemies. So, for instance, Rufus has 500 FF7 HP and deals under 100 per hit (when you factor in endgame-level defense).
PCs, for their part, don't get scaled against a DL average, but against their actual in-game performance. So the FF8 characters, who don't have any legal Junctions, have the stats and damage of unjunctioned FF8 PCs. They probably still beat Rufus, though.

Limits: Still no scaling or other special rules. They start empty and activate in the DL as they would in-game, so FF7 characters can forget about anything above a level 2 (and usually anything above a level 1), and the only VP character who can PWS is Lucian. As per the above, this gets held against them.

Skills: Anything unique, learned naturally or learned by using DL-legal equipment gets a pass. Storebought magic, non-unique skills learned from enemies or non-legal items, etc, etc, is right out.

Defend commands I consider when they have special effects.

Speed: I don't allow turn-based speed to cause CTB doubles one way or the other. When two characters from CTB systems fight, they fight in CTB. When two characters from turn-based systems fight, they fight in a turn-based system where their speed only affects which one goes first. When a CTB character fights a TB character, if the CTB character is fast enough to doubleturn enemies normally and the TB character isn't particularly fast, s/he doubles or 3:2's. If the CTB character is slow enough the s/he gets doubled often and the TB character is reasonably fast, s/he can be doubled or 3:2'd. An average CTB character will not double or be doubled just because his/her opponent goes first every turn or last every turn in a TB system that doesn't allow doubling.

[Dhyerwolf]

One idea I've been toying around with lately is allowing storebought attack magic for casts like Lufia 2 and FF7, as an analogy to storebought weaponry.  This would better reflect in-game performance - especially for a game like Lufia 2, where magic just dominates in-game - and make the magic stat of mages relevant in the DL instead of getting screwed if they lack good initial setups.

The problem with storebought magic in general is that it let entire casts live off universal, storebought skillsets - FF7 would probably be the biggest offender here, with full healing, Haste, and lots of accurate status turning an cast into High Heavies regardless of anything unique to the character.  But if you restrict the storebought spells to attack magic only, any serious improvement in duelling capabilities would be reflected in the damage average, so you'd primarily just shift the power around between members of a cast.  The only universal benefit to the cast would be hitting more elemental weaknesses and a second defensive stat, but those tend to be minor things in the long run.  DDS/Persona 3 casts hate you forever if you do this, though.

Dunno if I'd actually allow this, but felt like posting this idea to get feedback.

I do allow this with CC because it's easy to draw elemental lines. With other games...not as much. I guess this may not matter, but if you allow them any storebought element, it makes them super awesome at hitting any elemental weaknesses that exist, which yeah...I don't see Mitsuru needing to auto-lose to basically the whole FF 7 cast because they can all equip a Fire materia. I certainly really like the idea, but I don't see any logical way for most of them to go. I think for say Lufia 2, I could at least scale up any attack magic based on the spell types they start with. Of course, then you also have storebought magic in Suikoden games where the attack spells can be packaged with healing or 100% ID! Well, at least Suikodens also have some gauge of who is better with what rune in order to make some deliniation if I wanted to allow storebought runes.

[Taishyr]

Items: Characters can do whatever they want with items they equip for the fight, including itemcasting and Mystic. All non-equipped items get a flat "no," which makes Rikku a terrible Light as far as I'm concerned.

Choked a bit in amusement here. >_>

Anyways, will probably edit this for my own views. Lord knows I need some definitions, though I've made up my mind on a few different things.

[Shale]

Yeah, that example wasn't chosen out of a hat. If I were voting based on my DL views that team would have died many times over >_>

[Yakumo]

I know this has come up before and I'm not trying to cause an arguement, I'm just putting my views on the DDS press turns out here since it seems like nobody else seems to see it the same way.

I see press turns as a part of the battle system and not of the individual characters.  Being hit by your weakness in DDS doesn't take away your turn, it gives the other whole team another turn.  Individual characters aren't directly affected.  Serph could be hit by fire magic three times in a row, but Argilla loses just as much time as he does.  Serph can hit a weakness, but he doesn't necessarily get that extra turn, Cielo might.  Frankly, I just toss it out the window these days, it's not character specific so I'm not going to punish OR reward them for it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

One scaling I have toyed with is to multiply boss HP by (number of meaningful characters in the boss battle, on either side)/(number of PCs in the battle), which addresses the issues the other side of this debate bring forward a bit better while reflecting in-game quite well, since of course the numerator, which also rises with number of PCs, will directly affect the length of the battle in-game.

Elf: Sounds interesting in theory... but what does it end up doing in practice? Any major ranking changes that come to mind?

Mostly it's a good way to pin down support credit without resorting to "this feels right", it's a good way to address some of the concerns of people who think my scaling is too nice to bosses who fight huge casts without creating joke situations like tank solo bosses.

I can't think of many rankings it changes specifically. Keeps Todd Dukakis more solidly in Heavy I guess, as an example. (Doesn't really save SHADY, sadly.)

[DjinnAndTonic]

I appreciate seeing everyone's views. Shale's in particular are wildly different from mine, and I can see where they come from (except the boss scaling). It's helpful in determining whether I need to adjust my own views or not.

Dhyer allows storebought magic? Huh, interesting.
Not interested in listing the possible Suikoden runes, but here's a CC list.

Elements with tildes are common drops. Elements with (x5) next to their name are essentially consumable items. Summons are completely illegal from what I can tell, but I listed them for posterity.

List of Storebought CC Elements:
White:
Lv1
Photon Ray
TurnWhite
Lv2
Meteorite
WhiteOut (x5 item)
3
PhotonBeam
RecoverAll
4
MeteorShower
Purify
Panacea (x5)
StrongMinded
WeakMinded
5
HolyLight(trap) (Awesome vs. Miguel!)
~HolyLight
6
~Ultranova
MagNegate
Magnify
SUMMONS: Unicorn, Saints (not legal)

Black:
Lv1
Gravity Blow
TurnBlack
Lv2
HellSoul
BlackOut (x5)
3
Gravitonne
4
HellBound
Genius
Imbecile
5
~FreeFall
Revenge
6
~BlackHole
Nostrum (x5)
SealAll
Diminish
SUMMONS: MotherShip, GrimReaper

Blue:
Lv1
AquaBeam
Cure
TurnBlue
2
IceLance
Medicine (x5)
3
AquaBall
CurePlus
4
IceBlast
Nimble
Numble
5
~Deluge
~CureAll
~BlueField
6
~Vigora
SUMMONS: FrogPrince, BlueWhale

Red:
Lv1
Fireball
Tablet (x5)
TurnRed
2
MagmaBomb
Ointment (x5)
3
FirePillar
4
MagmaBurst
Strengthen
Weaken
5
~Inferno
~RedField
6
NinetyNine
SUMMONS: RedWolf, Salamander

Green:
1
Bushwhacker
TurnGreen
2
AeroSaucer
Heal
Antidote (x5)
3
Bushbasher
4
AeroBlaster
HealAll
BatEye
EagleEye
5
~GreenField
6
InfoScope
SUMMONS: Sonja, Genie

Yellow:
Lv1
Uplift
TurnYellow
2
ElectroJolt
Brace (x5)
3
Upheaval
Capsule (x5)
4
ElectroBolt
HiRes
LoRes
5
~YellowField
6
PhysNegate
SUMMONS: Golem, ThundaSnake


Notes: If you allow all storebought Elements and dole them out to innate-users by color, then each color gets its own stat buff/break, and each elemental spell has a chance of inflicting a (generally crappy) status effect. Of note is PhysNegate and MagNegate - really nice field effects there. If you allow MagNegate, Serge becomes a slightly more versatile Chris Lightfellow.

I have no clue what Red Element's "Ninety Nine" does...

Would be interested in seeing a list of which Suikoden characters have claim to which runes.

Still curious about any plot claims for FF8 GFs. Even weak ones.

-Djinn

[Taishyr]

The only plot claims for GFs are to Squall, who is assigned Quetzalcoatl/Shiva, IIRC. And that one's debatable as is.

[Rozalia]

Plot claims on Gfs? I believe they are.

Squall - Quetzalcoatl, Shiva and Ifrit. Q and S cannot be missed and are supposed to be Squall's GFs. Ifrit is supposed to be gained by Squall so he also counts.

Selphie- Alexander. You said however tiny so I'll pull this out. Selphie found a GF as a child. Said GF was taken off her by Edea who in her boss form has alexander for you to draw. It could be said Alexander was that GF.

Edea - Doubt she'd ever want her Pc form but if she does then Alexander because her boss form has it.

Thats all I can remember but I doubt theres more.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Wow, that Selphie one is... really weak. Weaker than Yuffie's Leviathan plot claim or Locke's Phoenix plot claim...

I might be convinced to allow Squall all three elemental GFs, though... thus making him the only one who can use any of FF8's skillsets... and probably breaking the FF8 damage curve to hell... Squall for Godlike while the rest of the FF8 cast becomes Puny? Not like FF8 PCs are doing much of anything in the DL anyway...

-Djinn

[Taishyr]

Ifrit he has no real claim to; his mission at the beginning is to get to the bottom of the Fire Cavern. Quistis acts as support against the boss and neither are said to pick up the GF or be the ones to use it. Squall's claim to it is about as bad as Selphie's to Alexander.

And yeah, if you take Squall straight to averages this way he get awesome while the rest suck. I consider him against a generically boosted average and take the others without Squall factored in, though.