DL Interps

[OblivionKnight]

EXA stands for Extra Action.  A double-turn or triple-turn or whatever. 

G3 SP could be restored by items.  You can get infinite numbers of the full 200 SP restorers from a mini-game. 

Geno's Whirl...it was tap the button at the right time to cause 9999 damage to a target.  Did not work on bosses (did normal damage instead). 

[superaielman]

Quick note: Deflect's not DL legal Djinn, it's AC only.

Speaking of movement and speed, I am this close to using Move (or more accurately, threat range, so a Brig mage is bad at this because they can't move and attack) as the DL speed stat for Disgaea, FE, and Brig. Only would affect the first turn, though... which is already how I view games in which there is no reward whatsoever for higher speed past the first turn, i.e. SMRPG and BoF5. (Games like BoF1 do have a reward, in that the faster PC knows the state of the battle, and I give this CTB credit.)

Brig and WA:XF are the only SRPGs I can think of that use that (Can't move and attack) type of system for magic offhand, though both games have their own speed stat.

Lufia magic stuff

 The more DL relevent question for the cast is starting IP or certain types magic- There's the plot claims for L2, magic that only certain cast members want, that kind of thing. I'm always sort of bouncing around on this, bu tit's interesting enough to note.

Spells that they only want/have use for buying

Maxim- Strong, Flash
Tia- Bravery (It's a waste of a turn for the endgame PC's with how defense works)
Selan- Fireball


Changes to the cast with:

-All storebought magic allowed. Key additions- Maxim gets Mirror and Champion, Selan gets Destroy, Mirror, Champion, and L3 attack spells, Lexis gets Mirror, L3 attack spells, and some turn two status, Artea gets Mirror. Tia gets better attack magic, Bravery, and Stronger. Key losses- Maxim's damage suffers a little, Guy's 3x IP doesn't OHKO, Selan needs a lot more time to buff up her IPs, Artea's damage suffers a little, Tia's damage suffers a little but gains bravery, Lexis is.. oh hell, Holy Energy's a little worse but that's it. Dekar is unaffected thanks to having obscene attack and leaving before L3 spells in game.

Maxim goes to H/G, Guy drops to L/M (Damage average goes up), Dekar is unaffected, Lexis goes to 3.9 Heavy, Selan goes to 4.0~ Heavy, Tia goes to M entirely on the strength of no longer having Merutastic Pdurability, Artea drops to 4.2 Heavy.

-L1 magic.

Maxim goes to H/G, Artea drops to 4.2 Heavy, Guy drops to L/M, Lexis/Tia/Dekar unaffected, Selan is.. largely unaffected. (Damage is better, average goes up. Eeeeehhhhhhhhhhh. She may have had Mirror in L1, would have to check.)

-Spells they only want/have use for buying

Maxim's a pure H, Tia goes to M, Selan is largely unaffected.

-50% IP allowed.

Everyone goes up half a point or so.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Lufia2 stuff

I posted some of this already in a previous post.

Selan did have Mirror in L1, for reference.

Also, wouldn't half the cast want 50% ID if you're allowing all spells that the cast 'wants'?

Also, I'm perfectly okay with allowing bonus dungeon skills/equips, so AC-only Deflect is fine with me.

-Djinn

[superaielman]

There is no way to ever get deflect as a spell in the normal game. It's effectively dummied out and is completely up to chance to getting even in a raid, so it's pretty much a no go on legality.

The 'want' stuff is spells that the PC wants that no one else needs as a storebought spell.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I consider Brig speedless currently, so yeah, threat range is what I'd adopt for its speed. I already use it to break tiebreaks when it/FE/Disgaea face an opponent who is average speed.

[DomaDragoon]

2. My view on storebought magic is that if it can't be de-equipped and directly passed on to someone else once it's put on, I give it to 'em. This mostly affects FF1, Lufia 2, and Pokemon.

This is an interesting idea, I might adopt it. But I'm curious as to why you view it this way?

*shrug* Always felt like being more true to in-game ability, honestly. Sort of like the idea of using Ether Points to unlock abilities in XS1 or Skill points for Suiko 3, only using a different resource. I don't think it affects my voting much (excluding Maxim, and even then he's got the L1 spells as a legit claim), it's erratic enough to begin with.

[Talaysen]

Might as well throw in my thoughts.  These tend to change as I think about stuff, so don't expect me to agree with them tomorrow (I generally don't change views midseason, though).

Items: Unique item skills are allowed, max holding limit.  Rarer items may get more of a penalty, but eh, not strict on that.  So yes, Mystic is fair game.

Item-casting: Allowed if the item is legal for the character in any way.

Money: Generally considered maxed, if it is even remotely feasible.

Limit Meters: 50% starting.  No scaling.

VP1 PWS: No.  Just, no.

Weakness: Weaknesses are generally a property of the defender, but in the case of battle system quirks like SMT games, both sides would suffer the turn penalty/bonus.

MP Death: I have no freaking clue anymore.  Probably allow it both ways.

Counters: Allowed, but if it is a property of the battle system (FE/SRW), both sides get the same system.

LoD Additions: Due to how LoD additions work, they automatically overcome counter attacks (due to player skill) unless the counter-attack in unblockable in some way.
e.g. FEs, Dis, ShF, SaGaF
counter-example: Augst's counter might be unblockable?

Djinn, want to explain this better?  I don't remember anything like that at all.

IP Suppressing and ARPG Stun: ARPG stun can die in a fire.  Yeah, they stun the opponent BUT OH WAIT THE CHARACTER ATTACKING CAN'T DO ANYTHING EITHER.  Yeah no.  Peep status I generally only consider if it's 100%.

ARPG speed:  Average.  Screw movement speed.  Woo, you can get to the enemy faster BUT THEY GET CLOSER TO ATTACK YOU TOO.  Yeah no.  Attacking speed or range is a better indication if anything.

Distance: I guess I generally consider it.  Kind of take it on a case by case basis though.

WA4/5 HEX system: Randomized field.  If Arnaud faces someone weak to fire that he needs to OHKO, well, he has a 3/28 chance of doing that.  Hope his evasion brings his odds of winning to above 50% then.

SRPG Movement-based initiative: I guess I could see it for initiative tiebreaks?  Generally don't, though.

Player Skill: Depends on the game, I guess.

Focusing: Definitely allow it for PCs, generally allow it for bosses.  Could change on the latter but probably not?  Would need to think about it more.

Overlevelled skills: Allowed.  Always.  Skills that REQUIRE aftergame (i.e. beat final boss first) are a big hell no.  Everything else is generally fair game.

Semi-unique skills/equips:  Think I might adopt a <50% users stance here.  There needs to be enough to go around OR enough that if you had the max amount of those users in your party, they all could use one.  If the game forces split parties ever, then those are considered (so later Suikoden games would only need 18 of X, rather than 6).

Initial equips/skills: Allowed.

Plot claims: Generally fairly lenient on this, but there are some things that are just way too weak.  Generally games where EVERYONE can use the item are looked at more strictly than if only a subset of the cast can (so no FF8 GFs, but something like Soren's Rexcalibur in FE10 is fair, since only a few people can use that).

Universal equips: Everything but accessories are allowed, right now.  Been thinking about allowing accessories for a while now and haven't flipped over yet.  Could happen any day.  Of course, the accessories that affect the averages most would be held as default.  The PCs need to pay for those other effects.  (I do this with other equipment, as well.  "Most often used in the DL" is not the same as "thing used in averages".)

Plot elemental-typing: Screw this.

Guarding: Allowed.  lol not unique but so isn't the attack command ban attacks.  If defending leads to a stalemate, consider who would win the match if defending was not allowed.

Status-blocking: Full status immunity in-game => full status immunity in the DL.  ID is not a status, nor are stat downs.  PC status that hits every enemy in the game (I mean EVERY enemy) ignores immunity in the DL.  Boss status that ignores PC immunity only fails against full status immunity in the DL.  (e.g. sleep immunity ignoring sleep would hit someone that only blocks sleep, but not someone who has full status immunity)
Self-inflicting status moves that ignore immunity don't count for any of this, of course.

Equipment Breaking/Stealing: Agree here.  If it's impossible to not have something equipped in that slot, it is considered unbreakable.  Worth noting that in Wild ARMs 4, there are no mechanics for determining damage without weapons/armor equipped.

Forced Retreat moves: Allowed IFF they provide some reward over running (besides a possible higher success rate).  EXP, items, money, etc.  If it removes the enemy from the map, it only counts if escaping would not do the same thing in that game.

Percentage-based RNG skills/crits: I consider the overall chance of winning, so while 70% is considered "turn 1", if the opponent goes first and has a 30% of killing first and will always kill on the second turn, they would win due to having a 51% overall chance of winning.

Damage scaling lower limit: I convert defense to division, so I don't know if I'd actually use this.  Need to think about it more.  Definitely don't agree with people dealing ZERO damage ever though.

Plot fusions: Case by case basis, I guess.

Multiple Unique Forms: Free form choice.

Unranked Forms: Unranked forms are fine but IF AND ONLY IF that form is not an optional boss form.  I tend to throw out pseudo-aftergame PC forms as well, though not sure.  They definitely need to be scaled to equal levels though (no nisa cameo pc forms for godliek lol hype here).

Temp-scaling: Scaled to the party they leave with.  It's the exact same as scaling an endgame PC to the endgame party.  We don't scale them to temps, why should we scale temps to people they don't end up with?  Makes no sense.
I also tend to allow overlevelled skills here, as well, but they get scaled to overlevelled skills of the other PCs, up to the level of the highest skill for the temp (so say temp X leaves at 15, learns skills at 20 and 25, while Y and Z are in the party, with Y learning skills at 18 and 23 and Z learning them at 21 and 26.  X gets all his skills, scaled to all of Y's and all of Z's except the level 26 skill.)

PCHP: 2.5x average, yeah.

Boss HP: I scale to the number of rounds of a fully twinked party attacking without needing to heal, etc.  I then scale everything towards the 1 PCHP mark, though I haven't got a strict way to do it yet.  So bosses below 1 PCHP have higher HP than normal, while bosses above 1 PCHP have lower HP than normal.

Team stuff: Who knows.

Bosses - How to take a suggested level at which to interp a boss?
-- Level that you would normally be at when progressing through the game.  Sidequests included, but grinding not.  No escaping or anything like that either.  Usually I just use whatever level I'm at.  >.>

Multi-part Boss - e.g. Melfice, Jenna Angel, Emelious - how do you view them? Multi-turning? Multiple HP bars? Extra parts are illegal?
-- At the very least, I allow them to use the moves.  Lately I've been allowing all the parts as they are, though I tend to kneejerk their durability lower than normal to keep them in check.  Though I may just lower their damage since the chance they all hit the same person is pretty low in-game.  Need to hash this one out more.
Also, parts that are physical separate are illegal, unless they can be summoned.  If they can be summoned, they must be summoned first, even if in-game they start on the battlefield (Jenna's last form is an example, here).

Turn order - doubling possible for who? BoF4 weirdness. Grandia weirdness. ARPG weirdness.
-- I convert everything to CTB.  Everyone can double.  I also impose caps on TB speed at 50% and 200% CTB speed.  Thinking about allowing people to break those caps with buffs, but with diminishing returns.  Not sure about any of that, though.
Also, Grandia doesn't have weirdness.  >.>

Status includes ID checking - which games treat ID as status? Which games treat stat breaks as 'status'?
-- ID doesn't seem to be a status in most games.  I can think of very few instances where a "blocks all status" accessory blocks ID as well.  I can't think of any game that treats stat downs as status.  A lot of games let those hit every boss in the game, afterall.

FF8 Limits - how did they work again?
-- The lower your HP, the higher chance you have to obtain a limit.  I don't know the actual formula for the chance, though.  Worth nothing that you can spam triangle to reset your turn until you get one.  Since this is ATB, it does take time to do this, and should be reflected if they want to do it.

[Yakumo]

I'll explain the LoD thing.  If you're in the middle of an addition and the enemy is going to counter you, instead of getting the normal box and having to press X, you get a flash, a different colored box, and you have to hit O instead.  If you hit the wrong button or get the timing wrong, you get countered and knocked out of the attack.  If you hit O with the right timing, you ignore the counterattack and continue on with the addition.

[Talaysen]

I'll explain the LoD thing.  If you're in the middle of an addition and the enemy is going to counter you, instead of getting the normal box and having to press X, you get a flash, a different colored box, and you have to hit O instead.  If you hit the wrong button or get the timing wrong, you get countered and knocked out of the attack.  If you hit O with the right timing, you ignore the counterattack and continue on with the addition.

Oh, right!  I remember that!  They were pretty easy to do, too.

Not sure if I'd consider that though.  Those are in the middle of an attack, not after an attack.

[Dark Holy Elf]

LoD also has after-attack counters which have no such mechanic for being prevented (Faust certainly had a good deal of them, Lenus had some as well I believe?).

[DjinnAndTonic]

LoD also has after-attack counters which have no such mechanic for being prevented (Faust certainly had a good deal of them, Lenus had some as well I believe?).

I'll explain the LoD thing.  If you're in the middle of an addition and the enemy is going to counter you, instead of getting the normal box and having to press X, you get a flash, a different colored box, and you have to hit O instead.  If you hit the wrong button or get the timing wrong, you get countered and knocked out of the attack.  If you hit O with the right timing, you ignore the counterattack and continue on with the addition.

Oh, right!  I remember that!  They were pretty easy to do, too.

Not sure if I'd consider that though.  Those are in the middle of an attack, not after an attack.

I see your point about Addition Counter-suppression occurring only for counters that are mid-attack, however, there's definitely a lot of these in the DL, too. Any sort of 'Deflect and Counter' or 'Evade and Counter' skill is interrupting the attack and can be seen as -mid-attack-. Also, FE counters can occur between two offensive attacks, too... which is effectively mid-attack.

For me, I just see all counters as suppressable by LoD characters since it's a feature of the battle system that gets ignored in DL otherwise. People that don't give as much credit for player skill might want to throw this out anyway, though.

Tal: re: bunch of interp ideas I agree with, like Guarding, Forced Retreat, Multipart Bosses, Turn Order
... I really like these ideas, they sit well with me, I'm 'confiscating' them for my own use.

On that note, need some more examples of Multi-part bosses
And I need to know how certain Forced Retreat moves 'reward' you. i.e. Black Dragon Grief - does it give ANY rewards over running? Is it blockable in any way?

Same for X-zone and Suiko-Blinking-Rune-Eject that I can think of off-hand...

-Djinn

[Dark Holy Elf]

And I need to know how certain Forced Retreat moves 'reward' you. i.e. Black Dragon Grief - does it give ANY rewards over running? Is it blockable in any way?

Same for X-zone and Suiko-Blinking-Rune-Eject that I can think of off-hand...

Black Dragon Grief gives no rewards over running, and is not blockable in any way besides being a boss.
Blinking Rune functions like this in S2, S3, and S5 (except that some enemies are immune). In S4, it functions like ID; it has rewards.

I think you're a bit misinformed about X-Zone; it is a standard ID spell. The one quirk it has is that enemies killed by it do not get their normal death counterattacks. They still drop all their usual rewards, and it still checks ID immunity. (Due to an odd coding quirk this causes Doom Gaze not to actually "die" if you use it on him, since the code required to remove Doom Gaze from the map and give you Bahamut is triggered by his death counter, though this can only be seen by exploiting the Vanish glitch.)

[Meeplelard]

Also worth noting that the other bosses X-zone screws you over from getting items from are SrBehemoth (misses the  the Thunderblade/Jewel Ring), and Wrexsoul (no Pod Bracelet) is NOT due to the spell itself, but rather, indirect aspect caused by the spell akin to the Death Animation.

In the case of Wrexsoul, X-zone kills the Soulsavers, stalls their death counters (ie reviving), game reads the fight has having no enemies on the field in any form (assuming Wrexsoul is in zinger), treats them as dead, you win!  But Wrexsoul never "died", just sort of left the battle (think one of the Dream Stooges can pull a similar stunt actually), thus you don't win his reward.

SrBehemoth is the same way, in that his Death Counter is stalled long enough so that the game reads he's dead, and doesn't read his death counter (eg bring in his Undead form), so the fight ends there.

A few other spells have this trait in FF6, just X-zone is the most accessible; the spell is, death counter stalling aside, very normal instant death.

[Talaysen]

For me, I just see all counters as suppressable by LoD characters since it's a feature of the battle system that gets ignored in DL otherwise. People that don't give as much credit for player skill might want to throw this out anyway, though.

Ehh, it's not really a measure of player skill that makes me not consider them.  They're stupidly easy to do in-game, and I had a near perfect rate of them.  It's just that they don't affect "normal" counters.  And according to NEB, the game actually has normal counters and additions don't block them.  I can see it for those counters that do interrupt the attack, but definitely not otherwise.

And FE counters are kind of weird.  It's not really mid-attack, but between two attacks.  Afterall, it does take up twice as many resources as one attack.  (It's more like doubleacting than one attack, I guess.)


Also, I thought X-Zone didn't give you EXP.  Just MP and money.  Granted, that should be enough to make it count, but some people go by EXP only (boo).

The reason I think that "any reward" is better is because in the Atelier Iris series, the Tun2Candy skill (and its derivatives) don't give EXP/SP/money/the monster's normal drop item as rewards, but it does give a different item that you can't get without using this skill, and in some cases, this is a better reward than what you would've gotten otherwise.  So linking it to EXP/money alone or something like that just doesn't make sense.

[Meeplelard]

No, it gives you EXP...

If you used it (well, alongside Vanish obviously) on a boss and didn't get EXP...that's cause like every single FF6 Boss doesn't give EXP.  This is how you can finish the game at level 6 <_<

Think you're confusing it with Remove from FF7, which was No AP or Gil, but gave you EXP (...IOWs, the 2 aspects that WOULD be helpful for LLGs you don't get but the thing that's banned you still get *shakes fist*)

[Talaysen]

No, it gives you EXP...

If you used it (well, alongside Vanish obviously) on a boss and didn't get EXP...that's cause like every single FF6 Boss doesn't give EXP.  This is how you can finish the game at level 6 <_<

Think you're confusing it with Remove from FF7, which was No AP or Gil, but gave you EXP (...IOWs, the 2 aspects that WOULD be helpful for LLGs you don't get but the thing that's banned you still get *shakes fist*)

I'm not confusing it with anything.  I'm just remembering it wrong.  Happens.

[AndrewRogue]

Items: Unique commands only. Allow as many as are possible within the context of the game.

Item Casting:

Money:

Limit Meters: Scaled loosely based on in-game frequency/necessity of their inclusion for uniqueness/interest.

VP1 PWS: Allowed to build up to them.

Battle System Quirks: Apply only to relevant cast members. Each duelist is taken with their game's strengths and weaknesses applying only to them.

MP Death: Occurs for characters/casts who die to it.

Counters: Granted if they are actual counters.

IP Suppressing and ARPG Stun: Rounded to the effect that best suits the opposing combat system.

ARPG Speed: Taken as average, weighted by actual speed.

Distance: Taken only as relevant when relevant to both systems.

SRPG Movement Based Initiative: Taken as average and weighted by ability to enter combat, unless it is a fairly specific outlier (Melee Range, non-moving FE Boss, for example).

Player Skill: Taken at max.

Focusing: If it can be done in game, it can be done in the DL.

Unique Skills/Equips: Always granted and scaled to relevancy (if its a single outlier or such, its scaled back to endgame levels, if its multiple characters, that becomes the scaling point for the PCs). This includes things wherein it may not be possible to simultaneously possess Ability A on Character and Ability B on Character B at the same time (ala BoF2 Shamanized Forms).

Semi-Unique Skills: Taken on a case by case basis. Err on the side of cast uniqueness/interest.

Initial Equips/Skills: Allowed.

Plot Claims: Case by case basis. Generally allowed in the interest of dueller uniqueness/interest or in cases where the narrative implies/states that the item/skill is directly given to the character.

Universal Equips: Granted.

Elemental Junk: Elements are whatever element they actually count as in-game. When hitting cross game, they are applied as the closest relevant element, unless another element from that game is closer, in which case it is taken as neutral.

Defense Command: If the game has one, it can be used however/whenever.

Status Blocking: Statuses are blocked in the spirit of the game its applying to. If a boss blocks all statuses, it blocks all statuses, even those from outside its game. In general, statuses are considered as whatever their closest in-game equivilant is.

Weapon/Armor Breaking/Stealing: Taken as what most accurately represents both the source game and the target game. If the target game equipment cannot be broken, it is simply a status debuff. If it can be, it is. If equipment can be reequipped, it can be.

Forced Retreat: Counted as fleeing from combat, and therefore irrelevant.

RNG-Based Things: Rolled for during the match if it is close enough to matter.

Plot Fusions: If a strong case can be made for the character still being the ranked character, then the form is allowed. PC to PC fusions are disallowed on the basis of being akin to unite attacks/requiring other PCs be included in the match.

Multiple Unique Forms: Generally speaking, I pick a "best" form and hold the character to it. I also generally hold them to what they figure mostly into the game as (Boss or PC). Considering changing this view, though.

Unranked Forms: Fit into the above caveat.

Temp Scaling: Scaled to when the PC is in the party, with the same caveat about their top end specials/equipment.

PC HP: 2.5x Average Damage is the average PC number. This is compared to the cast average to determine relative HP.

Boss HP: Dependent on a number of subjective modifiers based on my experience with the boss.

Team Stuff: Same cast PCs on the same team get relevant bonuses.

Bosses: Taken at some combination of the level in which I fight them and where the stat topic suggests.

Multi-Part Bosses: Generally only take the core part of the boss, unless the multi-parts are key, in which case they all get individual turns, etc based on the bosses AI.

Turn Order: Generally speaking, doubling is only possible in circumstances wherein both characters come from a game where double turning is possible due to disliking the inherent disadvantage that a lot of slow characters from non-doubling games face in raw numbers. Odd speed casts (where action is not determined flatly by a speed stat) are taken as average and are weighted by what could be considered a speed stat.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Andrew, good stuff. Very succint and understandable, I'm probably going to adopt some of this stuff into my own views.

There are a few things that seem to be far too vague simply for the sake of succint-ness, however. Some questions...

Limit Meters: Scaled loosely based on in-game frequency/necessity of their inclusion for uniqueness/interest.

Based on interest? So... FF7 PCs get them often because they're all different, but LoD PCs don't because they all do essentially the same thing? Not sure I follow where the line is for this.

Also, in-game frequency could be anywhere from nearly-every battle in FF7 if you're taking lots of damage every fight to almost never if you're OHKOing all randoms... How do you decide how much they start with, if any, or how easy it is for them to build up during a duel?

Battle System Quirks: Apply only to relevant cast members. Each duelist is taken with their game's strengths and weaknesses applying only to them.

Sounds nice, but how do you view certain quirks as a PC strength vs. an opponent's weakness? Thinking Press Turns here if I'm understanding the arguments here. Some people view Press Turns as a strength of a DDS character hitting a weakness, some people view it as a weakness of an enemy 'giving' a DDS character a Press Turn...

Counters: Granted if they are actual counters.

What is an 'actual counter'? I don't think I've ever encountered anything I would consider an 'imaginary counter'...

IP Suppressing and ARPG Stun: Rounded to the effect that best suits the opposing combat system.

Semi-Unique Skills: Taken on a case by case basis. Err on the side of cast uniqueness/interest.

Plot Claims: Case by case basis. Generally allowed in the interest of dueller uniqueness/interest or in cases where the narrative implies/states that the item/skill is directly given to the character.

'Best suits', 'case by case', 'cast interest'... just generally too vague or too inconsistant for my tastes, though I guess I can understand what your intent is... perhaps some examples can clear things up?

Universal Equips: Granted.

Are you including enemy drops here? What about accessories? Materia?

Elemental Junk: Elements are whatever element they actually count as in-game. When hitting cross game, they are applied as the closest relevant element, unless another element from that game is closer, in which case it is taken as neutral.

Vague, but I kind of like this, it's much easier to understand than the mess I wrote.. and I think it means the same thing...
The only problem is the phrasing 'closest', which will definitely run into some subjectivity issues in certain cases.

Status Blocking: Statuses are blocked in the spirit of the game its applying to. If a boss blocks all statuses, it blocks all statuses, even those from outside its game. In general, statuses are considered as whatever their closest in-game equivilant is.

Same 'closest' problem here, but I still generally agree with the wording.

Weapon/Armor Breaking/Stealing: Taken as what most accurately represents both the source game and the target game. If the target game equipment cannot be broken, it is simply a status debuff. If it can be, it is. If equipment can be reequipped, it can be.

So... what do you do with target games where no 'weaponless' stat is ever given? Do they default to their first weapon's strength level? Is there a set amount of debuffing?

Forced Retreat: Counted as fleeing from combat, and therefore irrelevant.

What's your view on FF9 Petrify? FF6 X-zone? This one makes sense, but needs examples I think.

RNG-Based Things: Rolled for during the match if it is close enough to matter.

I just think this one is interesting and want more explanation.

Plot Fusions: If a strong case can be made for the character still being the ranked character, then the form is allowed. PC to PC fusions are disallowed on the basis of being akin to unite attacks/requiring other PCs be included in the match.

Another case-by-case one? Could you give some examples to clear it up? A 'strong case' is subjective...

In general, there are a lot things here that seem to be 'case-by-case' basis for you... this strikes me as somewhat biased as there aren't any hard definitions for what is or isn't legal between similar case scenarios.

Really nice list though, it seems like a nice medium between the 'allow everything' and 'restrict everything' views. You're probably the closest to what I thought was the 'average view' for just about every interp...

-Djinn

[Dhyerwolf]

I'm assuming that "actual counters" refer to something like Auron/Worker 8's counters, where it's just one-sided (As opposed to Fire Emblem, where counters can work for or against you). Might as well throw out my view, which is that a character can only counter if they have a range advantage. This means that pure FE shortrange characters don't counter to reflect their in-game inability to get around counters as well. 1-2 range weapons can counter pure short range or pure long range though.

[AndrewRogue]

The main issue with me trying to actually quantify my views is that, among the conversational DL posters at least, I'm one of the most subjective voters. I tend to try and weigh things in the manner that best benefits the duelists within my prescribed views and the manner that makes each individual duelist most interesting. Thus, this does indeed often lead to me having a lot of case-by-case views. :p

Based on interest? So... FF7 PCs get them often because they're all different, but LoD PCs don't because they all do essentially the same thing? Not sure I follow where the line is for this.

If the limits are the sole distinguishing features of the characters or integral to their combat, I scale in favor of them, ala allowing energy storing so VP characters can actually hit their PWSes.

Also, in-game frequency could be anywhere from nearly-every battle in FF7 if you're taking lots of damage every fight to almost never if you're OHKOing all randoms... How do you decide how much they start with, if any, or how easy it is for them to build up during a duel?

Checking against boss fights is usually what works for me. I weight the way the limit builds against how much effort it takes during an average boss fight and establish when it would occur in the fight. Its been a while since I actually had to apply the system, but it basically incorporates a number of in-game factors required to build it and then weights it based on cast specifics.

Sounds nice, but how do you view certain quirks as a PC strength vs. an opponent's weakness? Thinking Press Turns here if I'm understanding the arguments here. Some people view Press Turns as a strength of a DDS character hitting a weakness, some people view it as a weakness of an enemy 'giving' a DDS character a Press Turn...

I actually really haven't had to deal with this one yet. Given my minimal experience with DDS, I'd be inclined to call it a battle system quirk (as it applies universally to both sides and isn't based directly on something that happens to or is granted to a character), and thus give it to DDS characters as a strength and weakness. I'd need to actually play more to settle on it, though.

What is an 'actual counter'? I don't think I've ever encountered anything I would consider an 'imaginary counter'...

Dhyer hit this one. The big example is that, in FE, the combination of the way counters and doubles interact and the general universality of counters has led me to see them as combat rounds, rather than proper counter attacks.

IP Suppressing and ARPG Stun: Rounded to the effect that best suits the opposing combat system.

Semi-Unique Skills: Taken on a case by case basis. Err on the side of cast uniqueness/interest.

Plot Claims: Case by case basis. Generally allowed in the interest of dueller uniqueness/interest or in cases where the narrative implies/states that the item/skill is directly given to the character.

These are taken as such because they are difficult for me to rule on most of the time because they feel very subjective in general. I'll mull over and see if I can come up with some good examples, so if anyone wants to give some examples from games where these would come up, I could try and illuminate it a bit better.

Are you including enemy drops here? What about accessories? Materia?

Enemy drops and accessories are included, Materia (and other items that basically grant new skills and are universal are not included.

Vague, but I kind of like this, it's much easier to understand than the mess I wrote.. and I think it means the same thing...
The only problem is the phrasing 'closest', which will definitely run into some subjectivity issues in certain cases.

No particular comment.

Same 'closest' problem here, but I still generally agree with the wording.

No particular comment.

So... what do you do with target games where no 'weaponless' stat is ever given? Do they default to their first weapon's strength level? Is there a set amount of debuffing?

Default to first weapon strength.

What's your view on FF9 Petrify? FF6 X-zone? This one makes sense, but needs examples I think.

Refresh me on FF9 Petrify? FF6 X-Zone is treated as ID because it... well... acts like it functionally. The basic line I draw is A. that it lets you win the battle (with rewards and such) and/or B. that the attack itself is something that would incapacitate the other side.

RNG-Based Things: Rolled for during the match if it is close enough to matter.

Basically, since random is random and all, when the match relies on RNG based material (ID chances, status landing, etc) I grab some dice and run the percentages myself. Accounts for the fact that sometimes a 10% chance will hit first go and a 90% chance will whiff when you need it most.

Plot Fusions: If a strong case can be made for the character still being the ranked character, then the form is allowed. PC to PC fusions are disallowed on the basis of being akin to unite attacks/requiring other PCs be included in the match.

It really is dependent. The basic line, I suppose, comes down to whether or not the ranked character is still a clear part of the fusion. FFT Zodiac Monsters are probably the best example? They are still clearly the base character, they just have another chunk as well.

In general, there are a lot things here that seem to be 'case-by-case' basis for you... this strikes me as somewhat biased as there aren't any hard definitions for what is or isn't legal between similar case scenarios.

Yeah. I'm actually kinda notorious for being a little inconsistent, as most of my judgment calls strive to be in the spirit of the game and best capture the feel of the game and its duelists (see: my theoretical allowance of Contingency for mages in the BG games; it is accurate to in-game matters, but is awkward as being pretty much pre-battle buffing). Hence why I try to keep at least some sort of baseline: that way I can at least try to make judgment calls within an established framework and not bias screw certain casts. It is also why I usually try to take subjective cases in the manner that's most beneficial to the cast in question.

[Monkeyfinger]

Just covering some of my less standard ones:

Boss HP: In theory, each hit (not round) of average damage they can take is worth .16 PCHP (1/2.5²). Of course, the trouble in practice is determining what, exactly, average damage is. Stat topics whose figures are totally trustworthy are very, very rare for me, and most of the ones I go by at face value are written by me.

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Duelers with multiple forms in a game: All forms are scaled to the time when the last form appears. Examples:
 - In a case of 4 boss forms, they're all scaled to the party that fights the 4th form. I.E Reno is a crappy slugger because his 4th form is, and all past forms are numerically inferior to 4 (though if he can Pyramid someone with form 1's shit speed, more power to him. He's allowed to try.)
 - A boss who becomes a PC later has his boss from scaled to an endgame party if the PC form is permanent, or the party the PC form abandons if it's a temp form. I.E VP2 Hrist always wants her PC form in the DL because while I technically allow that C4 boss form, it gets treated as though it faces the party Hrist is part of at endgame.
 - A temp PC who becomes a boss later has his PC form's stats compared to the party that fights the last boss form. I.E Sialeeds is a fuckawful light because she has a choice between an S5 boss form or a PC form that's scaled to a more advanced party. And Ghaleon can use that PC form for all I care - but it gets compared to the party he faces as the final boss.

Only legal forms count for all this. A temp PC who gets a plot-fusiony boss form later, for instance, gets a pass and gets scaled to the party he was part of.

I do this because the logic behind scaling a non-endgame form to the time is that it's often conceivable for such characters to train and get stronger after their involvement in the story is done, and that they might well end up as a stronger version of the same mold they were in. Except, that clearly didn't happen with cases like Ultros, Hrist, Sialeeds, Ghaleon, etc. We know which direction they went in, and how they ended up. They should be held to that path. But a plot-illegal form tends to involve the character losing himself, so does not count.

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Form choice between different games: Free choice, until the dueler draws someone that a certain form of theirs can't conceivably beat. Then, that form is sealed off for the rest of the season.
Example: Myria has 2 very different forms - the fast, tanky, 1 dimensional fighter from BoF1, and the much weaker but much more versatile mage from BoF3. Say she draws Heat. Heat's tentacles and stat downs completely shut down Myria 1. If Myria beats Heat, it's by picking her BoF3 form, battering down the tentacles with multitarget spells, and slamming Heat with Mjollnir on doubleturns. If this match ever happens in the DL and Myria wins, I'll consider Myria1 sealed off for the rest of the season, and make her be Myria3.

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All naturally learned abilities are legal, regardless of concerns like uniqueness, curve wrecking, level learned, etc. The terra clause is part of this. Another, more obscure champion of this cause I use is Koudelka. Every single spell in that game is universal; all characters learn the exact same list. But they learn these spells naturally, without having to spend any points, buy anything, equip anything, etc. So they get the spells in the DL, because there's no possible way for them to not end up with all those spells in game.

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Fighters from games like Tales, Star Ocean, etc. are all fast. Really fucking fast, in cases like Lloyd and Guy. Meanwhile all the mages have Ghaleon-like speed. This is because physical combos tend to be all or nothing in those games - either your first hit connects, staggering the target and making him bait for the rest of your chain, or it fails, and you get popped before you can cancel into anything else. Thus, the speed comparison is "full charge time of spell vs. opening physical in the chain". Fighters really come out ahead here.

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Any successfully landed status attack that leaves the opponent incapacitated, with no hope of defending himself, is a victory. Screw what rewards you get for using it, that's a pointless detail that happens to be shared with some attacks that are invalid as kills for different reasons. Zidane is the notable dueler this comes up for.

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Statusblockers: Not just storeboughts - common drops are legal too. Characters can equip as many as they have slots for. Technically I allow generic stat-up accessories, and factor them into the averages as standard, meaning characters from games with such accessories must weaken themselves to block statuses (SHes, VP2) but I always forget to do this.

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DDS characters get free turns whenever they hit a weakness or crit. Their opponents get free turns whenever they hit a weakness or crit. None of this "DDS crits are awesome attacks, but the elemental weakness thing is clearly a property of the defender" shit.

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Hitting your opponent with Don't Move or an equivalent = melee immunity, provided the person who applied the status is using long range damage. Even if it wears off, the applier tends to have put insurmountable distance between himself and his target. This is the only time I take movement seriously in the DL.

[Talaysen]

Form choice between different games: Free choice, until the dueler draws someone that a certain form of theirs can't conceivably beat. Then, that form is sealed off for the rest of the season.
Example: Myria has 2 very different forms - the fast, tanky, 1 dimensional fighter from BoF1, and the much weaker but much more versatile mage from BoF3. Say she draws Heat. Heat's tentacles and stat downs completely shut down Myria 1. If Myria beats Heat, it's by picking her BoF3 form, battering down the tentacles with multitarget spells, and slamming Heat with Mjollnir on doubleturns. If this match ever happens in the DL and Myria wins, I'll consider Myria1 sealed off for the rest of the season, and make her be Myria3.

What happens if all forms epically lose against the opponent to you, but they manage to actually win on site?

[Taishyr]

One exception to one of my rules just occurred to me.

If a game has -no- elemental system, just a phys/mag split (if even that), I may, if there is appropriate "plot"-elemental reason for it, attach elements to attacks. TWEWY'd be the most likely candidate for this, but there are no doubt others.

[Monkeyfinger]

What happens if all forms epically lose against the opponent to you, but they manage to actually win on site?

I can't think of a situation where this is ever relevant.

[Talaysen]

What happens if all forms epically lose against the opponent to you, but they manage to actually win on site?

I can't think of a situation where this is ever relevant.

Well, it could happen any time with just about any match with a dueller with multiple forms, but I guess it's something you can ignore until/if it comes up.