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Author Topic: DL Interps  (Read 16687 times)

Yakumo

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #75 on: October 30, 2008, 07:44:03 PM »
Well, let's just say for the sake of argument that to you, neither version of Myria stands any chance against Heat, but despite this she wins on site anyway.  Would you allow Myria full choice in her next match?  Would you stick her with BoF3 since that's the one that had the best chance to you, even though you don't think she should have won anyway?  I would assume the latter, but I admit to being curious.

Monkeyfinger

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #76 on: October 30, 2008, 09:56:00 PM »
Quote
Would you stick her with BoF3 since that's the one that had the best chance to you, even though you don't think she should have won anyway?

That.

I would, in fact, vote Heat over both forms, but I acknowledge that he really has to work for a win over Myria3. Myria1, he just crushes.

Nitori

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #77 on: November 01, 2008, 03:57:16 AM »
Items: Unique skills get as many "common" items as the game limit allows~ (common steals/storebought).

Item-casting: Equip it and you get it~

Money: Money is max allowed by game~

Limit Meters: Starting meter? Not in Nitoriland~

VP1 PWS: I should probably play VP1 or something.

Weaknesses: DDS weaknesses are attached to the PCs. EB rolling HP is thrown out since hax~

MP Death: SO3 PCs can so get MP Deathed. So can Magic Urn Gau. They can't MP Death back though.

Counters: Counters seem fine, but I'm starting to look at FE counters more as a "round". Or something.

LoD Additions: I have no idea what these are.

IP Suppressing and ARPG Stun: oh god I think I'll just throw this out~

I'd go with attack speed for ARPGs if we had any figures, but we don't so I just default to average. Movement speed doesn't seem like much of an indicator of how fast you actually attack~

Distance? SRPG distance is fine, ARPG distance beyond long range and short range is a no go~

WA4/5 HEX system: I throw out all hexes.

SRPG Movement-based initiative: Never bought Threat Range, I just use average again.

Player Skill: Scaled to an average "player" based on interp. Kind of arbitrary but whatever.

Focusing: I see a duel as a party size of one on each side. Since focusing depends on a character being in part of a party size being less than max, I disallow all focusing~

Allowing unique skills even beyond endgame levels? Sure, it's fun~

Plot claims for items/equips/skills: Yeah, this is pretty case-by-case.

Universal equips: Storebought, only statusblockers but as many as possible, universal statusblockers just get home status.

Plot elemental-typing: Plot elemental typing is too interp heavy for me. No way~

Specific elemental-typing nonsense: I have no idea what this even means but Sun hitting Grass in any way seems pretty fishy.

Guarding: All defend commands are allowed.

Specific status nonsense: Specific one of a kind status hits an immunity that most resembles it ingame that is more common.

Equipment Breaking/Stealing: Equip changing is allowed, equip breaking is generally always allowed; even if the breakee can't not have a weapon equipped I just treat the breaking as reducing all the stats to 0.

Forced Retreat: Any such move that doesn't give a special reward is illegal...I think.

Percentage-based RNG skills/crits: 66% is needed for turn one~.

Damage scaling lower limit: Damage can be nulled~

Plot fusions: Case-by-case, since it involves paying attention to plot.

Multiple Unique Forms: All unique forms allowed, full formshifting allowed for each match. Screw an arbitrary "best" form and forcing people into a form, people shouldn't be able to win or lose depending on where they start in the bracket~.

Unranked Forms: Unranked doesn't matter to me~

Temp-scaling: Scaled to party, I guess.

Boss support: All support starts dead and can be revived if possible. If not, well then tough luck~
« Last Edit: November 01, 2008, 04:14:18 AM by Nitori »
<Ko-NitoriisSulpher> roll 1d100 to grade Nitori?
<Hatbot> ACTION --> "Ko-NitoriisSulpher rolls 1d100 to grade Nitori? and gets 100." [1d100=100]

Taishyr

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #78 on: November 18, 2008, 12:48:11 AM »
Oh. One important one I forgot.

Averages: All averages are taken against a team taken, DL-legally, in that direction. If a character twinks for offensive stats, his stats are then compared to an average focused on offense. This innately just makes more sense to me; it does create situations where a person's best offense is actually on a different average, but it keeps things more sane to me mentally (since I have massive issues seeing one person twink for offense without the rest of a cast also being factored into this. If the option's unique to the person, then it doesn't affect much, but when the option's available to a lot of people due to equipment options, this becomes important).

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #79 on: November 18, 2008, 05:59:45 PM »
Ooh yes, that is one I am definitely behind.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Taishyr

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #80 on: November 18, 2008, 07:33:04 PM »
Funny, it was vaguely one of your topics that reminded me of this. >_> (FFT topic. Pure offense builds average was what I was fiddling around with. I'm still not sure if I did it right, but.)

Hyper Inferno

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #81 on: November 18, 2008, 09:57:32 PM »
Items: Anything easily obtainable for a unique item command is legal. Easily obtainable is 99% store bought, but I'd allow Rikku to use Strength Spheres or something in her mixes if she really wanted to.

Item-casting: Stuff that you can equip. This is why I think Soldier should have won against Harken such a long time ago in unranked (Swordedge armor, + Hero's shield healing every turn)

Money: As much money as you want. The only RPG I can think of where money is still really a big issue at the end game is SO3.

Limit Meters: If meter carries over throughout battle/is insanely easy to replenish, I allow it. Exceptions occur mostly if I'm too lazy to recalculate 3-turn averages for stat topics that don't have this.

VP1 PWS: I guess they can carry it over.

Weaknesses: Mostly on the character end. Nothing's come up for me that really matter yet (I think).

MP Death: I'd let SO3 characters get MP busted, Gau probably not, since in a normal playthrough you'd give him an esper, although I wouldn't allow him to use the esper magic in battle.

Counters: Perfectly legal. Although, I'm not inclined to give it to FE, since every character can do it.

IP Suppressing and ARPG Stun: Leaning toward perfectly legal. ARPG stun is taken care of by how I view a 'turn' in ARPG standards. Course, this means I need to think of a way to balance Xorn, or otherwise he just cancels everyone who's roughly average speed and they never get a turn against him. Oh, and all PC Tales mages suck since a single attack cancels them out of any spell higher than the most basic.

ARPG speed: Linked to how often/how quickly an attack can connect. So Guy would have more initiative than Luke by a lot (since he runs a lot faster), but his attacking speed wouldn't be quite as high over Luke (still higher though). Likewise, this means that all Tales mages are slow as hell when using spells.

Distance: For SRPGs and ARPGs, if the attack is long range, then its somehow long range in the DL.

WA4/5 HEX system: Haven't played the games.

SRPG Movement-based initiative: Only SRPG in the DL I've played is FE, and for me, that's easy. Based on attack range. Afterwards, normal speed. Doubling is taken care of by comparing speed of PCs to an average endgame enemy and worked into the average from there.

Player Skill: Limited to what the game has 'intended' to be done in a normal battle. In the Tales series, its pretty obvious that you're only meant to cancel attacks upward (IE, Attack chain, level 1 arte, level 2 arte, level 3). If I allowed maximum player skill, suddenly half the cast of ToS and ToA have infinites, and we run into 99 Ultra Jump Mario. Of course, finding the right number for Mario is a bit more difficult, but I'm going to assume its lower than what is required for those side quest items.

Focusing: If a boss has forced MT, than it remains forced MT damage even against a single person. If the boss has forced MT only due to a quirk in the damage system and ingame it deals focused damage against 1 person, it still remains MT damage in the DL.

Beyond endgame: Illegal. If its just a little beyond endgame levels, then maybe. Terra's Fire 3, passable. Her Ultima? No way. Shion's Erde Kaiser is a weird one.

Semi-unique skills/equips: Mostly illegal. Case by case basis for some things.

Initial equips/skills: Perfectly allowed.

Plot claims for items/equips/skills: Generally legal.

Universal equips: :Leaning toward illegal actually. Giving an entire cast status blockers or elemental blockers seems to go against my view of how unique a character is.

Plot elemental-typing: Mostly for things that are clearly something that isn't listed by the game. Like if a wind elemental attack clearly has a lightning animation, then I'm inclined to call it lightning. Chrono Cross makes this weird.

Specific elemental-typing nonsense: Light and Dark in P3 are actual elements, it just so happens that every single spell in game with Light and Dark as an element is either gravity based or ID based.

Guarding: You can guard as much as you want. Running out a FE character's weapon is a perfectly legitimate strategy. (And one I'd like to see come into play with something like Articuno pressuring someone out of uses)

Status-blocking for bosses: Pretty much if the boss blocks everything in game, then they block everything period.

Status-blocking for PCs: If a character has a unique status blocker that blocks everything in game, then they block everything.

Specific status nonsense: If there is a status that goes through even perfect status resistance (Gau's Charm), then it always goes through, even against PCs/Bosses who have perfect status resistance.

Equipment Breaking/Stealing: Equip changing is allowed if it can be done in game. Equip breaking just removes that piece of equipment from the stats.

Forced Retreat: Boss wise, if the boss uses an ability that forces a retreat on a party member, and kills the rest of your party, and you don't get a game over, then illegal. But if you do get a game over, then perfectly legal. PC wise, if it ejects the enemy, its fine (although bosses get auto immunity to this).

Percentage-based RNG skills/crits: Turn 1 I see as somewhere between 60-70%.

Damage scaling lower limit: Things can tink.

Plot fusions: Usually illegal? Only things I can really think of are stuff like Doom Dragon from GS1 and Valkyrie from VP2, and those are pretty clear cut illegal to me.

Multiple Unique Forms: Free form choice.

Unranked Forms: Typically unallowed. Exception is XS3 forms.

Temp-scaling: Scaled to the party at the time.

HP stuff: Still working it out. 2.5x average damage KOing average HP makes battles nice and easy though.

Team stuff: No team, no team attack.

Boss support: Unless the boss's support is clearly someone else, then I allow it in its full. So Emelious and Melfice get all their parts in battle, and Arietta is still stuck as a mage.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #82 on: November 19, 2008, 08:02:27 AM »
Updated the initial post with some new stuff, tried to clean it up a bit.

Shadow Hearts 2 and Lunar 2 Plot claim Crests that I know of:

Gepetto - Focalor, Ardennes, Furfur (they were his to begin with), Crocell, Alloces (found in Gepetto's house), Baal (received during Geppeto's sidequest)

Joachim - Gremory, Agares (Joachim initials)

Lucia - Purson (received when Lucia joins), Aim (Lucia initial), Gaap (Lucia's sidequest)

Blanca - Camio, Bifrons (found in a wolf-only area), Zagan, Stolas (wolf bout prizes),

Anastasia - Danatalion, Balam, Andrealphus, Botis (Ana initials), Orobas (Ana's sidequest)

Kurando (can't use Crests, but if anyone has a claim to these, it would be him, so I'm listing it) - Valak (reward for defeating Tsukiyomi), Valefor (found in Kurando's village)




Jean - Blue Dragon Crest, Earth Crest (found in Lunn's dojo)

Hiro - Red Dragon Crest

Leo - White Dragon Crest


Nyarlie's Dungeon ST=MT floor: For group-targetting effects that can hit allies as well as enemies, the skill will hit ALL Enemies and ALL Allies, including the caster (exception being where the caster could never be hit by the original spell in-game). My reasoning for this comes from how I view the MT being implemented. For example, imagine a Suiko3 Fire rune spell - it's a ring or line that you target at an enemy and by the time the spell goes off, an ally might have gotten (see: almost always seems to get) too close to said enemy. Any character, enemy or ally, within the range of the ring or line will be damaged by the spell. Now on the MT floor, that ring- or line-shaped hitbox has become a full field effect. The skill has already shown itself to have the intrinsic property to hit anyone within range, so therefore all enemies and allies are hit by this skill. Applies to FFT multi-target magic as well.

-Djinn
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 06:57:58 AM by DjinnAndTonic »

Rozalia

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #83 on: November 19, 2008, 08:04:57 PM »
Anastasia also has a plot claim to orbas or whatever the demon in Wales is called.

074

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #84 on: November 20, 2008, 09:38:17 AM »
Initiative vs. Multiturning from speed:

When someone who flat out doubles (or more) a character with initiative goes up against such a character, all turns resultant from doubling/tripling are executed first, until the first turn "adjacent" to and exceeding the initiative-user's in the turn order comes up--this turn is beat by the initiative, but none of the others are.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

Sir Donald 3.2

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #85 on: December 02, 2008, 10:11:57 PM »
Quote from: original post
Items: Unique character skills that involve the use of items are legal for that character. However, they will have a limited supply of items (generally, no more than 10 of each, less so for more rare items, and non-replenishable items are illegal, unless they are unique to the character). If it is a battle system quirk that only one character (the main) has access to items, it does not make items 'unique' to him/her.

Think it's a good policy, but Storebought = 99 Items.  If a particular character (or small subset, see semi-unique) is/are the only one to use particular items via the item-command, (i.e. FF5 Chemist Items,) said items are legal for those charas.  The above Battle-System-Quirk Limitation applies.

Item-Casts are limited to active equipment that are non-consumable.  Item-casts that consume equipment are illegal.

Limit Meters: I would start them at 0, but would consider carrying them over between matches in the same Season.  (i.e. if Yuffie had won against Geshp, whatever level her Limit meter would be at at the end of that fight she would start with in the Quarters.)

Statuses are Attacker Definition, but the Weakness/Resist Tests are based on the Defender.  As for Elements:  If an attacker's element can incorperate multiple elements in the Defender's system, the most logical element based on animation (or flavor text) will be chosen.  Conversely, if an attacker's element is a subset of a defender's element, the target will hit the defender's element.

Examples:
Both Blastoise's Hydro Cannon and Articuno's Blizzard would hit CT's Water Element as both types of attacks are specified as "Water".  However, if they hit FF1 Knight, Dragon Armor would resist Blizzard (r-Ice) but not Hydro Cannon (no "Water" element in FF1)
Conversely, Blaziken resists Marle's Ice2, but is (still) weak against Frog's Water2

Which begs the question:  Could Nightshade-Gau's "Charm" be considered to be interpreted as "Attract" in Pokemon?  If so, then the gender tests would apply there.  (Most games don't have gender-tests for status, however, so Gau is still hot.  He just wouldn't be able to use Charm on any ranked Pokemon except Latias.  And even then, he usually has better rages that could exploit elemental weaknesses.)

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Status-blocking for bosses: If a <duelist> can simultaneously block all statuses from their home game, ... they can block any status effect.
*This only applies to statuses that could be blocked in the status' home game.

I exclude Instant Death from the above, as most Status-blocking Equipment does not, as a general rule, block ID.  Or Stat nerfs either.  I consider those to be 3 separate domains.  Hence, Pokemon's Haze blocks all Stat Buffs/Nerfs but does nothing for Statuses or ID.

Consideration:  If a Duelist can at least Resist all elements in his/her game, I'm leaning towards making that mean he/she can resist all elements not in their game.  (If so, then Weak to all Elements in game = Weak to all Elements period; Null-all in-game means Null-All, but Absorb-All in-game still means Null-All outside of Game.  The multiplier closest to 1 among all elemental multipliers would govern un-accounted for elements.)  Note that this would not affect "Non-elemental" attacks.

BTW, Steel-Type Pokemon, while not "normal to" anything, would be "normal to" Holy/Light since that's not a Pokemon Element.  Also, see quoted Counter-Example below.

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Specific elemental-typing nonsense:
If a game has no defense</evade> stat, that means everyone is average in that stat and I default attacks to hitting <average> defense </unmodified evade>. ITD/ITE is rare, it makes far more sense to say "Everyone has average evade/defense" than to say "All attacks in this game are ITD"
Counter-example: PS2 has no elements or elemental resistance, therefore all elements hit PS2's version of physical/magical RES. PS2 'elemental' attacks are, likewise non-elemental.

Agreed.  Notes added in <carrots> because brackets induce code.

Haven't played FE yet (just bought 8), but I would tentatively allow counters, with the following caveat:  If a game's characters gain this ability due to the Game Battle-System (FE Series, I'm staring at you...), and the opponents can gain this ability through the use of equipment that gives no other bonuses, and that item is either Storebought (i.e. FF6 Black Belt) or at least semi-common (50% of party membership), then the accessory is allowed for such instances only!  If it allowed by DL-Legal Armor (i.e. Swordsedge in DQ4) I'm on the fence, may depend on the degree of uniqueness.  If it's allowed as an innate skill of the character, tough cookies.


I'm not much into ARPGs and SRPGs, but that might change eventually.  In the meantime, this seems the right place to consider Turn-Based Speed in an Active-Time Environment:

The FF5 ATB Formula is somewhat deceptive.  Each character has a listed speed/agility which gives an initial charge to ATB.  Once ATB reaches 255, a turn can be taken.  The Stat Topic lists reasonable integer values, but, for Reference, a FF5 Thief has 1.184 Turns to Avg, while a Berserker has .859 turns to average.  I would propose a similar mechanic for Turn-Based Syatems vs Active-Time Opponents, ultimately converting the FF5 System to a FF6+ ATB Equivalent (255/(255-Agi')=ATB Charge Speed.  In FF5, 1 Standard Deviation is +8%/-7% and 2 Standard Deviations (near Sample Max/Min) are +18%/-13.5% of average speed.  Outliers shouldn't be more than 130% or less than 81% (values of 3rd StD).  I'll have to test with other Turn-Based Systems to make sure...  But I do have 1 Outlier:  Alena (DW4), who has 3.8 Standard Deviations above the Rest-of-Cast Average, has a 7:5 Turnsplit to Average on this formula.

I see initiative as "Starting with a Maxed-Out ATB".  In most ATB games I've played, the bar seems to start at a random position, unless Initiative (i.e. "Preemptive", or Anti-Initiative, i.e. "Surprised/Ambushed") is in play

As for Turn-based attacks that "go first", i.e. Quick Attack, I see those as interrupts, of sorts.  However, there doesn't seem to be a good way of dealing with these "First Strikes". 

Against foes with no Speed Stat, the other system applies, with exactly average characters losing initiative to the "no Speed" Chara.

Player Skill:  Usually depends on the degree of "skill" or "timing" required.  As people are usually constrained to vote on game's they've spent a great deal of time with, I use my general experience, and implore you to do likewise.
SMRPG:  Timed Attack from PCs always hits, Skill boots of Specials is as Stat Topic.  Timed Defense, however, only when the attack's timing is obvious.  I take it as a function of opponent's accuracy.  (So Pokemon 1HKO Attacks are always blocked by TD, kind of like SMRPG's 1HKOs; and seeing as how they're at 30%, just outside of a Standard Deviation, accuracy could be scaled from there.)

BTW, I haven't reached 30 on Mario's Ultra Jump, but I have reached the 20's.  So I'd allow the Attack Scarf, but not the 100-Jump Bonus-Item.

Guarding: I'm leaning towards permitting "Prefect Defend" if it's not a standard option for the majority of PCs.  Likewise, games where the Defend Command is "semi-unique" I would also consider.

Since FF7 uses Distance (flying enemies can go out of range, in fact most pre-FF7 FFs have "back row" enemies have the same advantages as "back row" allies, if they're targetable at all,) I carry this concept over.  In fact, I'm thinking about interpreting the common "Defend" command as moving out of "Contact" range where movement squares is applicable.  Then again, the "ref" needs to make sure this isn't spammed.  Specialized version (i.e. FF5 "Protect") are utilized as in-game and I see as legal.

Not sure where I stand on Equip-Breaking, largely because I'm not sure how I stand on Reequipping.  I think I could allow Equip-Break and if the opponent can change that equipment slot in battle, they may then reequip and Defend (moving out of "Contact" range to Reequip)

Percentage-based RNG skills/crits:  For the first turn, I use 68% as my benchmark, as that's the baseline of a standard deviation.  After the 1st turn, percentage becomes cumulative, rolling over at 100%.  If it's 98% accurate after evasion is factored in, it "always hits" (98% is 2 StD)  Same with Status accuracy.

Damage scaling lower limit: As Attack.  If standard attack in the attacker's game can yield 0 HP damage, Defender gets this advantage.  If standard attack is guaranteed 1 damage by attacker's formula, that 1 HP damage carries.  Note that I said 1 HP, not 1%.  Also, Formulas used to determine damage assume Attacker for properties of Attack and Defender for properties of Defense.  Minimum Cap I determine as a property of the Attack.  Maximum Cap I'm thiunking Defender, but I'm not sure.

BTW:  Rolling HP in Earthbound I'm now thinking as a method of allowing Counter(HP=0) for EB PCs, much like some Bosses get a Counter at HP=0.  The Pokemon DPP ability "Aftermath" (in Not Ranked) I may treat also as Counter(HP=0).  Actually... we need to redo the Earthbound Stats Topic, so as I could try to ascertain Guts values...

Also, I do not allow Sacrificial moves in duels (i.e. Exploder).  Good old "Selfdestruct" clause.

For Unranked Forms, I would allow direct sequels/prequels regardless of rating, if the preponderence of evidence is in favor of the two characters being one and the same.  (e.g. GS/GS:TLA).  It's how upgrades are made after all...
Cameo Appearances... I would allow forms of a person's Division or lower at the time of the battle.  i.e. I would allow "Heavy", "Middle" or "Light" forms of Cloud or Squall, regardless of rating, but not "Godlike" forms, as they are in "Heavy".

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #86 on: December 03, 2008, 12:29:42 AM »
Limit Meters: I would start them at 0, but would consider carrying them over between matches in the same Season.  (i.e. if Yuffie had won against Geshp, whatever level her Limit meter would be at at the end of that fight she would start with in the Quarters.)

Not a bad idea, I supppose. But it strikes me as unfair. It basically means that any FF7 character can be argued as stalling through their earlier battles just to save up for a first-turn OHKO against anyone they would have trouble with. The same applies for a lot of the Limit Meter fighters. I personally think that being able to enter maybe half of your fights with OHKO damage skews things in your favor.

Quote
Which begs the question:  Could Nightshade-Gau's "Charm" be considered to be interpreted as "Attract" in Pokemon?  If so, then the gender tests would apply there.  (Most games don't have gender-tests for status, however, so Gau is still hot.  He just wouldn't be able to use Charm on any ranked Pokemon except Latias.  And even then, he usually has better rages that could exploit elemental weaknesses.)
More applicable to characters like Noa (LoL) and SaGaF Mystics vs. the ranked Pokemon. Also, I'm pretty sure there are a few other games with gender tests. I want to say Suikoden, but I don't think that's it.


Quote
I exclude Instant Death from the above, as most Status-blocking Equipment does not, as a general rule, block ID.  Or Stat nerfs either.  I consider those to be 3 separate domains.  Hence, Pokemon's Haze blocks all Stat Buffs/Nerfs but does nothing for Statuses or ID.
Stat Buffs/Breaks are generally different from Status and ID to me. However, sometimes Breaks are treated as status (Blind is just an Accuracy Break sometimes), so these particular Breaks are considered Status. Also, ID is considered a Status about as often as it is -not-, but there are a LOT of games that don't have ID at all. Due to the fact that if I treated ID as separate from Status, then all of these games would have no possible way to block ID (which would -way- overinflate ID in the DL, moreso than it already is when you consider how useless it tends to be in-game). At least if I group ID with Status, then if a character from an ID-less game is immune to -every other status-, then they aren't completely screwed. And more importantly, the ID-user doesn't get to be 20X more amazing than s/he is in-game (BoF2 Jean comes to mind).

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I see initiative as "Starting with a Maxed-Out ATB".  In most ATB games I've played, the bar seems to start at a random position, unless Initiative (i.e. "Preemptive", or Anti-Initiative, i.e. "Surprised/Ambushed") is in play
Good Call. I approve.

Quote
Guarding: I'm leaning towards permitting "Perfect Defend" if it's not a standard option for the majority of PCs.  Likewise, games where the Defend Command is "semi-unique" I would also consider.

Since FF7 uses Distance (flying enemies can go out of range, in fact most pre-FF7 FFs have "back row" enemies have the same advantages as "back row" allies, if they're targetable at all,) I carry this concept over.  In fact, I'm thinking about interpreting the common "Defend" command as moving out of "Contact" range where movement squares is applicable.  Then again, the "ref" needs to make sure this isn't spammed.  Specialized version (i.e. FF5 "Protect") are utilized as in-game and I see as legal.
Oh man, I hadn't thought about this before. I'm hyping Arche as immune to FF7 physicals, LOL.

Ahem... but this whole using Defend as some kind of Movement command is a novel idea. But I'd have to see how someone could implement it in a match to determine whether I'd allow it or not.

Quote
Percentage-based RNG skills/crits:  For the first turn, I use 68% as my benchmark, as that's the baseline of a standard deviation.  After the 1st turn, percentage becomes cumulative, rolling over at 100%.  If it's 98% accurate after evasion is factored in, it "always hits" (98% is 2 StD)  Same with Status accuracy.
Standard deviation curve as the basis for RNG skills? That's... pretty cool. If 68% is turn 1, what is 32%? I -think- it should be turn 3 (although that would be 33% by my original reckoning), but I'm not quite sure how to do the math.

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BTW:  Rolling HP in Earthbound I'm now thinking as a method of allowing Counter(HP=0) for EB PCs, much like some Bosses get a Counter at HP=0.  The Pokemon DPP ability "Aftermath" (in Not Ranked) I may treat also as Counter(HP=0).  Actually... we need to redo the Earthbound Stats Topic, so as I could try to ascertain Guts values...

Also, I do not allow Sacrificial moves in duels (i.e. Exploder).  Good old "Selfdestruct" clause.
Good idea about Rolling HP, I think I'll just adopt that directly from you.

I would allow self-destruct moves in a duel, IFF the same mechanics apply in-game. If the last PC standing uses said self-destruct move to kill the last enemy standing and the win is awarded to the PCs (i.e. not a Game-over), then I'd allow the move in the DL (sort of strikes me as similar to the auto-raise/pre-raise skills/spells, which I allow).

More on the auto-raise/pre-raise skills: The skill/equipment must follow the same rules for legality as other skills/equips (Unique/semi-unique/naturally-learned/plotclaim/etc.). This pretty much just means that I don't allow VP1 Guts. Consumable pre-raise equips are treated as Items, and therefore must be Unique, like Item-use skills, to be equipped (if any of these EXIST, then that character just got a huge boost to their duelling worth). If another party member must be alive for the pre-raise to activate (and not trigger a Game Over), then the pre-raise is useless in a duel (FFT, but still useful in a Team Match).

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #87 on: December 04, 2008, 04:49:11 PM »

Stat Buffs/Breaks are generally different from Status and ID to me. However, sometimes Breaks are treated as status (Blind is just an Accuracy Break sometimes), so these particular Breaks are considered Status. Also, ID is considered a Status about as often as it is -not-, but there are a LOT of games that don't have ID at all. Due to the fact that if I treated ID as separate from Status, then all of these games would have no possible way to block ID (which would -way- overinflate ID in the DL, moreso than it already is when you consider how useless it tends to be in-game). At least if I group ID with Status, then if a character from an ID-less game is immune to -every other status-, then they aren't completely screwed. And more importantly, the ID-user doesn't get to be 20X more amazing than s/he is in-game (BoF2 Jean comes to mind).

Looking at Pokemon again, Paralysis not only prevents the afflicted from acting if he/she rolls a 1 on a 1d4, but also reduces the speed value, by 50% IIRC.  The latter is not  interpreted as a Speed-Level Debuff, but stacks on top of Speed Levels.

Now, if in that example where Blind is an actual Stat Break and not a Status that applies a Stat Break,  then I would consider it a Stat Break.  Basically, the question is, "How is it considered by the game".  Another question we can ask if we can't get into the code is "how is that break rectified?"  and/or "Does Ensua/Remedy Spell/Item cure the condition?"  If the answer to the latter is "Yes", then it's a Status that applies a break.  If "No", then it's likely a straight break unless we can determine otherwise via the code.

As for games where ID doesn't exist at all, I can see your point.  Chrono Trigger is an example of a game where ID exists, but ID-protection does not.



Quote
Standard deviation curve as the basis for RNG skills? That's... pretty cool. If 68% is turn 1, what is 32%? I -think- it should be turn 3 (although that would be 33% by my original reckoning), but I'm not quite sure how to do the math.

Only on Turn 1, Mind.  After Turn 1, it's the raw percentage Counter.

As an example, let's take 70% Accuracy.  That's greater than 68%, so it hits first turn.  Second turn, it has a total of 140%.  Since it already hit on Turn 1, it misses on Turn 2.  For turn 3, it's 210%, so Hit.

For a 60% option, that doesn't exceed 68%, so miss on first turn.  2nd turn is 120%, however, so Hit (since it didn't hit the first time).

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #88 on: December 04, 2008, 09:02:42 PM »
Yeah, generally status and stat modifiers are interpreted differently by the game, and often times obviously so.  Taking the above PKMN example, Paralysis shows up right there next to your name with a yellow symbol and blocks other statuses, while stat modifiers are not displayed and stack with pretty much everything.  Most games work a similar way (status displayed, status modifiers not, or if so, in a different manner).

Paralysis's speed nuke is 75%, not 50%.  That is, you have 25% of your normal speed.

Blind is normally not a stat break.  In most games it halves hit rate, or applies to hit rate.  It does NOT apply to accuracy.  Example: Someone has 100% accuracy, enemy has 50% evasion.  Getting hit with blind would make hit rate = (100-50)/2=25%, not (100/2-50)=0%.  It does not affect the stat itself, just the final result.  Similar to your generic FF Protect/Shell spells (in later games).

On the other hand, Arnaud's Illusion (halves HIT stat) is a straight up stat nuke, since it applies to the actual stat (and is that much more effective because of this).

If a game doesn't already have ID, I can see assuming characters who immune all other status immuning ID as well in the DL, while if a game does have ID and a character can immune everything BUT ID, they immune everything but ID in the DL.  I think most people normally do this with bosses anyways.

In other words, treat ID as separate from status only if it actually exists in-game.  Otherwise just assume it's a status.  You could probably treat stat breaks the same as well, but I'm not inclined to go that far.

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #89 on: May 28, 2009, 06:03:32 AM »
Updated the first post! So that you don't have to hunt to find new stuff, here are the additions:

Battle Onset HP: If a character -can- start a battle with non-max HP, and they may want to start a battle with a lower current HP, then they have the option of starting at 50% health. This is similar to the rules on Limit Meters, and it is an advantage that PCs can use in-game. It is balanced by the set 50% mark and the obvious disadvantage of being easier to kill.
e.g. FF8, MK Pamela,

Pre-Battle Buffing: If a character -can- use a skill previous to battle to aid themselves at the start of the match in-game, then they are allowed to use this skill before DL matches. The character -must- have legal claim to the skill (unique/initial/plotclaim/etc.) and the resources to cast it on themselves without any help from teammates before a battle. If this is possible in-game, then this advantage carries over to the DL.
e.g. FF6 Celes Vanish
Counter-examples: FF8 Squall (wants to start a match with Blind to get Crisis mode, but Blind is not a DL-legal skill), FF6 Gau (wants to start a match with Poison to use a poison-absorbing Rage for good Regen, but Poison is not a DL-legal skill for Gau),

Auto-Initiative: Characters with legal Auto-Initiative skills are viewed as if they start a match with a full ATB meter, as opposed to a 'random' ATB. After their first turn, their speed proceeds as normal according to their battle system.

Instant Death: The number of games in the DL which treat ID as separate from normal Status Effects far outnumbers the number of games in the DL which treat ID as another Status Effect. Thus, Instant Death is not a Status Effect unless a specific game states otherwise. For games where Instant Death does not exist, only Full Status Immunity to ALL of a games' native Status Effects can stop ID from other games.
counter-examples: SHs, some FF games,

Self-Destruct Skills: Self-destruct moves are allowed in a duel under the same mechanics that apply in-game. If the last PC standing uses said self-destruct move to kill the last enemy standing and the win is awarded to the PCs (i.e. not a Game-over), then I allow the move in the DL.
e.g. Nothing I know of.
counter-examples: FF6 Strago's Exploder, Dis Thursday,

Auto-raise/Pre-raise Skills: The skill/equipment must follow the same rules for legality as other skills/equips (Unique/semi-unique/naturally-learned/plotclaim/initial-equip/etc.). This pretty much just means that I don't allow VP1 Guts. Consumable pre-raise equips are treated as Items, and therefore must be Unique, like Item-use skills, to be equipped (if any of these EXIST, then that character just got a huge boost to their duelling worth). If another party member must be alive for the pre-raise to activate (and not trigger a Game Over), then the pre-raise is useless in a duel (FFT, but still useful in a Team Match).
e.g. P4, FFT, MK Pamela, Parasite Eve
counter-examples: VP1 Guts


Mecha: XG characters probably don't want their Gears, but I'm going to look at XG characters as having their choice between fighting in a Gear (compared against all other Gear-characters' averages) or fighting on foot (compared against the current average). Yes, this inflates some XG characters, but I'm okay with this as it reflects who you would use in-game at different points in the game.
e.g. XG, XSs, SRWs?

Multiple Unique Forms: In games where a character has multiple legal (unique) builds to choose from, all endgame builds are legal and these characters have formchoice. However, once they are forced to use a certain form for a DL season, they must remain in that form. This also applies to characters from multiple ranked games in a series.
e.g. SD3 classes, DQ8 weaponskills, SaGaF weaponskills, Bosses with multiple appearances, PCs ranked from multiple games in a series (Suikos, Dis, XSs, VPs, AtLs, BoFs)

Level (dis)Advantages: If a character joins the cast at a significantly higher level than the rest of the cast and the experience system is such that this advantage will be notable at endgame, then that character will be taken at a higher level in the averages. Similarly, extremely late joining or underlevelled PCs will be taken at a lower level in the averages.
e.g. AtL1 PCs, Suikos PCs, FE7 Nino

Skill Levelling: If skills and abilities in a game increase in power/effect through a levelling system, then generally these are taken at max power level if it is reasonable in-game to do so. If it is unreasonable to fully max skill levels, then an appropriate increase is chosen (generally 50% of max level). The aim is to portray the skills close to in-game performance if max level is unreasonable.
e.g. Disgaea skill/weapon levels, Grandia specials/magic/weapon levels, SOs skills/abilities, Tales skills/magic, FF9 Quina/Zidane/Freya





And a shortlist!

Items:
Item-casting:
Money Skills:
Limit Meters:
VP1 PWS:
Battle Onset HP:
Pre-Batlle Buffing:
Battle System Advantage/Weakness:
- MP Death:
- Counters:
- LoD Additions:
Distance:
- WA4/5 HEX system:
IP Suppressing and ARPG Stun:
ARPG Speed:
Turn Order Type:
Battle System Initiative:
Auto-Initiative:
SRPG Movement-based Initiative:
Player Skill:
Focusing:
Post-Endgame Uniques:
Semi-unique Skills/Equips:
Initial Equips:
Plot Claim Equips:
Universal Equips/Status Blockers:
Plot-based Elemental-typing:
Guarding:
Status-Blocking:
Status-Blocking for Bosses:
Instant Death:
Specific Status Effects:
Equipment Breaking/Stealing:
Equipment Switching:
Forced Retreat Skills:
Self-Destruct Skills:
Auto-Raise/Pre-Raise Skills/Equips:
Percentage-based RNG skills/crits:
Damage Scaling Lower Limit:
Multiple Unique Forms:
Plot Fusions:
Mecha:
Unranked Forms:
Temp Scaling:
PCHP:
Boss HP:
Boss PCHP:
Boss support:
Boss vs. averages:
Level (dis)Advantages:
Skill Levelling:

Team Matches:

Plot Claim Legality:


Dhyerwolf

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #90 on: May 28, 2009, 07:59:00 AM »

Level (dis)Advantages: If a character joins the cast at a significantly higher level than the rest of the cast and the experience system is such that this advantage will be notable at endgame, then that character will be taken at a higher level in the averages. Similarly, extremely late joining or underlevelled PCs will be taken at a lower level in the averages.
e.g. AtL1 PCs, Suikos PCs, FE7 Nino

Skill Levelling: If skills and abilities in a game increase in power/effect through a levelling system, then generally these are taken at max power level if it is reasonable in-game to do so. If it is unreasonable to fully max skill levels, then an appropriate increase is chosen (generally 50% of max level). The aim is to portray the skills close to in-game performance if max level is unreasonable.
e.g. Disgaea skill/weapon levels, Grandia specials/magic/weapon levels, SOs skills/abilities, Tales skills/magic, FF9 Quina/Zidane/Freya

Suikoden level advantages/disadvantages don't carry through to endgame.

Taking all skills at 50% isn't really like most in-game scenarios since the earlier skills should be higher levelled than the later skills.
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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #91 on: May 28, 2009, 08:07:06 AM »
Suikoden level advantages/disadvantages don't carry through to endgame.

Taking all skills at 50% isn't really like most in-game scenarios since the earlier skills should be higher levelled than the later skills.

I was thinking specifically of the level advantages that carry-over characters (like Futch) get in Suikoden 3. I remember that they ended up being waaaay higher level than my Flame Champion candidates were at endgame... and of course, they join sooner than that.

Yes, I'm aware that 50% isn't exactly like in-game scenarios. However, in lieu of a stat topic already having provided a skill level distribution that I agree with, I'm defaulting to this should max level be unreasonable.


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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #92 on: May 28, 2009, 08:52:57 AM »
In general in Suikoden it's hard to raise your levels significantly above 60 (61-2 can happy via gaining a lot of levels at once or on a main character if you're raising many, many characters), but due to the experience system it's also hard for any character you put in an endgame party to end under 55 or so.  So ultimately levels there are pretty stable regardless of join time, biggest difference is more universal, like whether you assume rotating parties and a lower 55 or just take everyone at 60, where experience levels off (and your well-used characters will end up anyway).

ON the note of mechs...

SRW is kinda special, it's all mechs.  Some characters DO have multiple options, but at least in the OG games it's a matter of "this mech completely outclasses this one" more than anything else (Lamia is the only exception I know of, Angelg and Ashsaber both have clear niches).  It's almost closer to equipment, since they can't fight without SOME mech.

XG... well, you can take it that way, certainly, since each character is clearly associated with a given mech.  I think only one character (Maria) uniformly wants you to allow this... well, no.  Stier is very, very similar in overall build to Rico, BUT Boost does exist so he gets a lot of milage out of that I guess.  The others... Billy trades the haste-heal game for initial speed, Citan and Fei lose straight up (slower for less damage), Emmy gets... the Boost option in exchange for a hefty durability penalty, probably not worth it.  Bart loses half his anti-Accuracy game in exchange for Boost, Chu-Chu I don't even know, depends on a few factors I'm uncertain of (like her base healing in Gear form, whether her unique equips work... I think she loses so much damage though?).  Elly... hm.  Loses the sleep game, but against the straight up status immune... I'd need to see Vierge's endgame, but I suspect that Aerod's is fairly solid, steady damage and she gets a big speed boost out of the deal.  It's a different look at the cast, and I think they have more mojo on-foot (bigger skillsets and damage curve, mostly) but not too bad.

Xenosaga... XS1 mechs are just boring.  I don't even use them enough to know how they stack up to each other.  XS2... well, each character pairs up for it (Shion/KOS, MOMO/Ziggy, Jr./chaos) so that's an issue right there.  XS3 is the same, but Jin now has a mech he pilots alone.  That aside, the characters have the issue of losing anything like a skillset, I think the entire cast loses out even if you let both Shion and KOS-MOS pilot Dinah and so on.
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Talaysen

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #93 on: May 28, 2009, 10:51:25 AM »
Battle Onset HP: If a character -can- start a battle with non-max HP, and they may want to start a battle with a lower current HP, then they have the option of starting at 50% health. This is similar to the rules on Limit Meters, and it is an advantage that PCs can use in-game. It is balanced by the set 50% mark and the obvious disadvantage of being easier to kill.
e.g. FF8, MK Pamela,

Over half of the MK cast likes this because they can force people to hit into Last Stand territory.

Auto-Initiative: Characters with legal Auto-Initiative skills are viewed as if they start a match with a full ATB meter, as opposed to a 'random' ATB. After their first turn, their speed proceeds as normal according to their battle system.

I'm not sure why this even needs to be said, honestly.  Anyway, I wanted to point out that a "random" CTB meter actually differs from the traditional "empty" CTB meter people use for the DL.  Example time!

Let's say we have two characters, A with 200% speed and B that is average.  If we assume empty CTB bars to start, then character A will get a turn at 50 ticks, and then another at 100 (assuming 100 CT=turn and average gives 1 CT for simplicity).  Character B gets a turn at 100 ticks, same time as character A gets their second (how you tiebreak that is up to you, but not relevant for what I'm trying to portray).  If character A is any faster (say 201%) they double turn before character B goes pretty cleanly.

Now, let's assume "random".  Okay, let's not assume "random" because that obviously puts everything to chance, but use the expected value of "50% full".  In this case, character A gets their first turn at 25 ticks, and their second at 75 ticks.  Character B, however, gets their first turn at 50 ticks, which is WAY before character A gets their second.  Obviously, this benefits character B compared to the above.

In general, slower characters are helped by having anything above empty CTB bars.  If you want to enforce true random starting bars, you have to play the odds game.  Character B in the above example has a CHANCE to go first (I think 25% offhand), which can sometimes be enough to make their odds of winning above 50%, of even 67% if you use that threshold for whatever reason.

As far as I know, people generally enforce the empty CTB bar rule in the DL, regardless of what a game forces starting bars at in-game.  Hence people who are over 2x faster than their opponent insta-doubling them.

If you want to compensate for games that start with a nonempty bar, you can do that fairly easily, I believe.  For games that completely randomize the starting bar (such as most ATB FFs as far as I remember), you can basically "halve" their difference from average for their first turn to make it more similar to in-game.  So someone with 130% speed in a game where the CTB bar randomizes the bar will be 115% on their first turn and back to 130% on other turns.  Someone with 70% would be 85% on first turn and 70% on subsequent turns.  I believe the math on that is right but I'm sleepy right now and I don't want to check it, but I'm sure someone will come in correct it if it's wrong.

(In case the logic wasn't clear, I was taking the "expected" value of the CTB bar, which is 50% in the case where it is completely randomized, for the values above.)

Multiple Unique Forms: In games where a character has multiple legal (unique) builds to choose from, all endgame builds are legal and these characters have formchoice. However, once they are forced to use a certain form for a DL season, they must remain in that form. This also applies to characters from multiple ranked games in a series.
e.g. SD3 classes, DQ8 weaponskills, SaGaF weaponskills, Bosses with multiple appearances, PCs ranked from multiple games in a series (Suikos, Dis, XSs, VPs, AtLs, BoFs)

As far as I know, SaGa Frontier weaponsskills can all be learned in one playthrough, so there's not really form choice going on there.  Though it's been awhile since I played it.

DQ8 skills can all be learned at postgame levels, if that means anything to you.  I kinda doubt it though, but just throwing it out there.

Level (dis)Advantages: If a character joins the cast at a significantly higher level than the rest of the cast and the experience system is such that this advantage will be notable at endgame, then that character will be taken at a higher level in the averages. Similarly, extremely late joining or underlevelled PCs will be taken at a lower level in the averages.
e.g. AtL1 PCs, Suikos PCs, FE7 Nino

AtL1 PCs don't really join at higher or lower levels than normal, or at least not late enough/significantly high/low enough for it to matter.  What you might remember is some people being ahead because AtL1 only gives EXP for kills, and some people are just too weak to get kills often and then fall behind and then are even weaker and less likely to get kills (if it's not obvious I HATE THIS MECHANIC SO MUCH).  Disgaea does the same thing but is actually more balanced about it.

Suiko PCs as has been said, don't really have significant level differences because the EXP system basically makes everyone able to get to an even level within a few battles.

Skill Levelling: If skills and abilities in a game increase in power/effect through a levelling system, then generally these are taken at max power level if it is reasonable in-game to do so. If it is unreasonable to fully max skill levels, then an appropriate increase is chosen (generally 50% of max level). The aim is to portray the skills close to in-game performance if max level is unreasonable.
e.g. Disgaea skill/weapon levels, Grandia specials/magic/weapon levels, SOs skills/abilities, Tales skills/magic, FF9 Quina/Zidane/Freya

Enforcing a hard 50% max is pretty silly.  I'll use another example here.

Disgaea 3.  Like in earlier Disgaea games you can level up skills by using them often (there's another method of levelling them as well, but I'll get to that later).  The max on this is 99.  However, by endgame, you're probably going to have them at... 10 or something.  If you're lucky.  Most of mine were even lower than that.  I'm actually quite a bit into aftergame and I think I got one skill to 15!  Getting them to 50 by endgame is ridiculous and I'm probably more likely to beat Land of Carnage Baal before even getting any that high.

The other method of levelling up skills is by using mana.  The early skills use far less mana than later ones and thus can probably get half the max, which is 5.  But the higher tier skills start getting RIDICULOUS mana costs and getting them even to 5 would take notable aftergame grinding.

I guess I have two points here:

1) Hard 50% usage is bad because it may not be reasonable to even get that high or it may be reasonable to get to 75% but not 100%.  It's just not really something you want to ever pick a hard number for because it varies WIDELY from game to game.
2) While I can see enforcing a CONSTANT value for a game (but per game for the reasons I stated above), even then you can run into issues with different skills being hard to level up than others, where what would be reasonable for one skill would be completely unreasonable for another.

Basically, just play it by ear.  If skills get to 50% in-game naturally, good.  If they only get to 10%, fine.  If they max, that's fine too.  But trying to enforce something across all games here just falls apart completely.  A good stat topic would take these things into account anyway, and you can generally just adjust as needed if you disagree (it won't be perfect, but a good kneejerk suffices in many cases).  You can also collect your own data if you so desire.

Addendum: Another problem with this is that it can clash with your policy on underlevelled/overlevelled characters.  Characters who join late but with little weapon/skill masteries would likely not hit the same mastery level as the other PCs in-game, and that should probably be reflected just like levels would.  Enforcing a hard constant value would contradict that.  An easy example is Disgaea 1 characters who join halfway through the game but with no mastery.  I believe NEB's topic takes them at lower masteries to compensate.  In my above example, there are characters that join extremely late with little mana to boost their skills with/no skill mastery and it really shows.  Granted, I tend to be nice to such characters since you can do some external grinding to get them caught up, but I don't really enforce level disadvantages/advantages as much as you seem to either.  I'm still waffling on that issue myself anyway.

...that ended up a lot longer than I was expecting.  Sorry.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #94 on: May 28, 2009, 11:50:30 AM »

Over half of the MK cast likes this because they can force people to hit into Last Stand territory.

Haven't played MK yet. Does this make the characters broken? Interps are an ever-evolving beast, this feedback helps me get things ironed out!

Quote
Auto-Initiative
I'm not sure why this even needs to be said, honestly. 

Someone else mentioned it in a previous post and I just noticed that it aligned with my thoughts on Auto-Initiative. Your logic here makes perfect sense and since I generally view DL matches from a CTB perspective, the ATB comment was an oversight on my part. As was the 'random' part...

Quote
As far as I know, SaGa Frontier weaponsskills can all be learned in one playthrough, so there's not really form choice going on there.  Though it's been awhile since I played it.

DQ8 skills can all be learned at postgame levels, if that means anything to you.  I kinda doubt it though, but just throwing it out there.

On both of these, I was taking my cue from the stat topics. For SaGa, I think it only really effects Red, who has multiple 'main' weapon options according to his starting equips/plotclaim equips. I actually do grandfather all legal skills in for these characters though. But these are good examples for people who don't allow post endgame-level skills.

Quote
Level (dis)Advantages

AtL1 PCs don't really join at higher or lower levels than normal, or at least not late enough/significantly high/low enough for it to matter.  What you might remember is some people being ahead because AtL1 only gives EXP for kills, and some people are just too weak to get kills often and then fall behind and then are even weaker and less likely to get kills (if it's not obvious I HATE THIS MECHANIC SO MUCH).  Disgaea does the same thing but is actually more balanced about it.

Suiko PCs as has been said, don't really have significant level differences because the EXP system basically makes everyone able to get to an even level within a few battles.

Both of these refer to characters who receive experience boosts by loading save data from their previous games. AtL1 PCs -in- AtL2 is what I was referring to. As well as the level boosts characters like Tir and Futch get in S2/3. I'm well aware that normal high-levelled Suiko characters will even out with the other PCs within a few battles, but this wasn't the case for the carry-over characters. Maybe it was just me? I distinctly remember Futch being ridiculously overlevelled at Endgame - L68 while Chris was 58...

Though if no one else knows what I'm talking about, I guess this doesn't make a very good example...

Quote
Skill Levelling
Enforcing a hard 50% max is pretty silly.  I'll use another example here.

Addendum: Another problem with this is that it can clash with your policy on underlevelled/overlevelled characters.  Characters who join late but with little weapon/skill masteries would likely not hit the same mastery level as the other PCs in-game, and that should probably be reflected just like levels would.  Enforcing a hard constant value would contradict that.  An easy example is Disgaea 1 characters who join halfway through the game but with no mastery.  I believe NEB's topic takes them at lower masteries to compensate.  In my above example, there are characters that join extremely late with little mana to boost their skills with/no skill mastery and it really shows.  Granted, I tend to be nice to such characters since you can do some external grinding to get them caught up, but I don't really enforce level disadvantages/advantages as much as you seem to either.  I'm still waffling on that issue myself anyway.

...that ended up a lot longer than I was expecting.  Sorry.

Wow. REALLY good point. That's what this topic is for, though! Interp discussion!

I suppose I have been getting a little out of control with the 50% Rule, huh? I just dislike describing all my interps with the logic of something 'being reasonable' all the time, so I try to enforce hard numbers where I can. Obviously this is not a place where I -can-, but I'll try to use it as a guideline until I have the time to go through each ranked game with skill levels and determine what I decide to be an appropriate distribution. It'll be a slow process, but I'm sure it'll come up for each relevant game over the seasons and various board tournaments.

Thanks, your 'longer than expected' post really helped me out!

-Djinn
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 11:54:08 AM by DjinnAndTonic »

Talaysen

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #95 on: May 28, 2009, 07:20:07 PM »
Haven't played MK yet. Does this make the characters broken? Interps are an ever-evolving beast, this feedback helps me get things ironed out!

Not really.  It just boosts defensive stats and speed by 40% (actually less than that effectively but that's the raw stat boost).  It helps them a bit but doesn't make them jump divisions or anything like that.

Someone else mentioned it in a previous post and I just noticed that it aligned with my thoughts on Auto-Initiative. Your logic here makes perfect sense and since I generally view DL matches from a CTB perspective, the ATB comment was an oversight on my part. As was the 'random' part...

I thought that might be the case, but I felt like talking through it anyway, since it's interesting to see how exactly a half filled CTB gauge affects things.  I do think I want to consider how first turn mechanics work in home games in the DL, though.  Need to figure out what games start with random CT and which don't I guess.

Both of these refer to characters who receive experience boosts by loading save data from their previous games. AtL1 PCs -in- AtL2 is what I was referring to. As well as the level boosts characters like Tir and Futch get in S2/3. I'm well aware that normal high-levelled Suiko characters will even out with the other PCs within a few battles, but this wasn't the case for the carry-over characters. Maybe it was just me? I distinctly remember Futch being ridiculously overlevelled at Endgame - L68 while Chris was 58...

Though if no one else knows what I'm talking about, I guess this doesn't make a very good example...

Oh, I misunderstood.

For AtL2, I remember the AtL1 characters being overlevelled only right when you get them, but since they join quite a bit before endgame, the levels even out towards the end pretty easily, assuming you actually use everyone equally, so I can't really see giving them a level advantage.  It only lasts for a short time and disappears by endgame.

Same for Suikoden characters.  The EXP system kind of forces characters to equal levels, so I can't really see the endgame level advantage here either.

But eh, that's just how I feel.

I suppose I have been getting a little out of control with the 50% Rule, huh? I just dislike describing all my interps with the logic of something 'being reasonable' all the time, so I try to enforce hard numbers where I can. Obviously this is not a place where I -can-, but I'll try to use it as a guideline until I have the time to go through each ranked game with skill levels and determine what I decide to be an appropriate distribution. It'll be a slow process, but I'm sure it'll come up for each relevant game over the seasons and various board tournaments.

Yeah, I know how you feel.  I like to have a set baseline that goes across all games as well, but there are times where it's just not possible to do so.  Skill levelling isn't much different from normal levelling, and we all know that we can't set some baseline for normal levels either.  It's just one of those things you just have to take individual games into account.

Thanks, your 'longer than expected' post really helped me out!

Oh good, it wasn't a complete waste of time then.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #96 on: May 28, 2009, 07:46:48 PM »
Someone else mentioned it in a previous post and I just noticed that it aligned with my thoughts on Auto-Initiative. Your logic here makes perfect sense and since I generally view DL matches from a CTB perspective, the ATB comment was an oversight on my part. As was the 'random' part...

I thought that might be the case, but I felt like talking through it anyway, since it's interesting to see how exactly a half filled CTB gauge affects things.  I do think I want to consider how first turn mechanics work in home games in the DL, though.  Need to figure out what games start with random CT and which don't I guess.


I've thought about this several times, but due to not having a list, never really instituted it. Off the top of my head, LoD, FF 9, and SH 1 do it. LoD is really easy to implement (Also, there goes even more Meru respect...), FF 9...bosses may actually get faster to me first turn as I was already taking their speed at a discount if they were fast (But first turn speed is stronger since there aren't animations yets), and SH 1 speed is so wonky anyways.
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Talaysen

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #97 on: May 29, 2009, 12:29:30 AM »
FF4-8 also have randomized ATB bars, I believe.  WA4 has some randomization in random battles but not in boss battles, so it's a weird case there.  Though I guess we do consider P4 characters to not be all average speed, which they are in boss battles, so.

superaielman

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #98 on: May 29, 2009, 12:59:21 AM »
I consider all P4 bosses average speed with losing tiebreaks (Same as DDS, etc), but consider speed against randoms.
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dude789

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Re: DL Interps
« Reply #99 on: May 29, 2009, 01:36:23 AM »
AtL1 PCs don't really join at higher or lower levels than normal, or at least not late enough/significantly high/low enough for it to matter.  What you might remember is some people being ahead because AtL1 only gives EXP for kills, and some people are just too weak to get kills often and then fall behind and then are even weaker and less likely to get kills (if it's not obvious I HATE THIS MECHANIC SO MUCH).  Disgaea does the same thing but is actually more balanced about it.
I don't think Arc the Lad did this. In fact, I think doing almost anything gave experience. The main reason for the difference was that some characters (Kukuru) were so fragile that they died early on and wouldn't get the chance to gain more experience. Additionally, your only sources of revival were Kukuru who was usually the one who needed revival and revival tonics, and I think there was a finite supply of those.