Author Topic: Nomic - Turn Twenty Eight (tai sez: omnomnom)  (Read 83151 times)

Carthrat

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Nomic - Turn Twenty Eight (tai sez: omnomnom)
« on: October 26, 2008, 04:01:33 AM »
GMs Note: I'll be handling the logistics of the game, though I won't actually be *playing*. I've positioned myself outside the rules for this purpose. Nomic is a game about technicalities, but for the sake of an entertaining game, if you spot any contradictions or feel that clarfications may be needed, *please* bring it to my attention early on! I've placed myself as Judge for the early stage of the game to handle disputes as to the existing ruleset. You can modify this rule if you really want, though.

BARDICHE is a meanie head who does not understand what a wall of text truly is.

Points!

1. AndrewRogue: -82
2. Carthrat: 136 (Partner: Corwin)
3. EvilTom: 125
4. Excal: 173 (Partner: QuietRain)
5. Jo'ou Ranbu: 150 (Partner: Laggy)
6. Sopko: 122 (Partner: SirAlex)
7. VerySlightlyMad: 27

Diplomacy!

AndrewRogue - Neutral to All
Carthrat -  EvilTom (W), VerySlightlyMad (W) Excal (P), Jo'ou Ranbu (P)
EvilTom -Carthrat (W)
Excal -  Carthrat (P), Jo'ou Ranbu (P), VerySlightlyMad (W)
Jo'ou Ranbu - Carthrat (P), Excal (P), VerySlightlyMad (W)
Sopko - Neutral to All
VerySlightlyMad -Carthrat (W), Excal (W), Jo'ou Ranbu (W)

This post will be edited whenever a change is incurred. Read it carefully!

The Rules!

Immutable Rules

101. All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in effect whenever a game begins. The Initial Set consists of Rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-213 (mutable).

102. Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers.

103. A rule-change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a mutable rule; (2) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of an amendment of a mutable rule; or (3) the transmutation of an immutable rule into a mutable rule or vice versa.

(Note: This definition implies that, at least initially, all new rules are mutable; immutable rules, as long as they are immutable, may not be amended or repealed; mutable rules, as long as they are mutable, may be amended or repealed; any rule of any status may be transmuted; no rule is absolutely immune to change.)

104. All rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes.

105. Every player is an eligible voter. Every eligible voter must participate in every vote on rule-changes. Transmuted; then Amended see Rule 308.

106. All proposed rule-changes shall be posted at the start of the turn they are proposed on. If they are adopted, they shall guide play in the form in which they were voted on.

107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application.

108. Each proposed rule-change shall be given a number for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule-change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted.

If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the number of the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment.

109. Rule-changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated explicitly in a proposal to take effect.

110. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable rule.

111. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed.

112. A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.

113. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of rule-changes must never become completely impermissible.

114. Rule-changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule-changes are as permissible as other rule-changes. Even rule-changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule-change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of a rule.

115. Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it.



Mutable Rules

201. Players will alternate in alphabetical order by the name they signed up for the game under. Turns may not be skipped or passed, and parts of turns may not be omitted. All players begin with zero points.


202. One turn consists of four parts in this order: (1) the player who's turn it is must propose one rule-change. (2) All players may discuss the rulechange if so desired. The proposer of the rule may amend his suggestion during this period. Part 2 may not take longer than 48 hours. (3) The proposed change is voted upon. (4) The player whose turn it is subtracts 291 from the ordinal number of their proposal and multiplies the result by the fraction of favorable votes it received, rounded to the nearest integer. They may then add this total to their score.


203.A rule-change is adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. If this rule is not amended by the end of the second complete circuit of turns, it automatically changes to require only a simple majority. Amended, see 306.

204. If and when rule-changes can be adopted without unanimity, the players who vote against winning proposals shall receive 10 points each. Amended, see 309

205. An adopted rule-change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.

206. When a proposed rule-change is defeated, the player who proposed it loses 10 points. Amended; see rule 302.

207. Each player always has exactly one vote. Amended; see rule 310.

208. Players who do not vote in any given turn will lose 10 points.

209. The winner is the first player to achieve 100 (positive) points.

In mail and computer games, the winner is the first player to achieve 200 (positive) points.

210. At no time may there be more than 25 mutable rules.

211. If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule with the lowest ordinal number takes precedence.

If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall supersede the numerical method for determining precedence.

If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or to defer to one another, then the numerical method again governs.

212. If players disagree about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule, then the player preceding the one moving is to be the Judge and decide the question; during the first five turns, however, Carthrat will serve as judge for any disputes and cannot be overruled. Disagreement for the purposes of this rule may be created by the insistence of any player. This process is called invoking Judgment.

When Judgment has been invoked, the next player may not begin his or her turn without the consent of a majority of the other players.

The Judge's Judgment may be overruled only by a unanimous vote of the other players taken before the next turn is begun. If a Judge's Judgment is overruled, then the player preceding the Judge in the playing order becomes the new Judge for the question, and so on, except that no player is to be Judge during his or her own turn or during the turn of a team-mate.

Unless a Judge is overruled, one Judge settles all questions arising from the game until the next turn is begun, including questions as to his or her own legitimacy and jurisdiction as Judge.

New Judges are not bound by the decisions of old Judges. New Judges may, however, settle only those questions on which the players currently disagree and that affect the completion of the turn in which Judgment was invoked. All decisions by Judges shall be in accordance with all the rules then in effect; but when the rules are silent, inconsistent, or unclear on the point at issue, then the Judge shall consider game-custom and the spirit of the game before applying other standards.


213. If the rules are changed so that further play is impossible, or if the legality of a move cannot be determined with finality, or if by the Judge's best reasoning, not overruled, a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the first player unable to complete a turn is the winner.

This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the winner.

302. When a proposed rule-change is defeated, the player who proposed it loses 1 point for every negative vote they receive. Sunrise provision: this rule does not take effect until the commencement of proposal 308.

303. Every player is an eligible voter. Every eligible voter must participate in every vote on rule-changes.

306. A rule-change is adopted if and only there is a positive majority among the eligible voters. Amended, see 320.

308. While every player is an eligible voter, participation is made at the voter's discretion, but the voter will still be penalized for not voting. This ruling also establishes a 24-hour time limit for the voting phase - past that threshold, voting is closed off, and any non-voters will automatically labeled as abstaining. As a provision, a voter may send his verdict to the judge at any time in both phases of a turn until voting closes.

309. Any player (other than the player proposing the rule change) will recieve 10 points if they a) vote for a proposal that fails, or b) vote against a proposal that passes.

310. Every participant on the board has one vote.  All of the penalties and bonuses associated with voting for purposes of playing the game will be reserved solely for those participants designated as players.  Finally, the votes of players will count as three votes for determining if a measure shall pass, but will count as one vote for purposes of determining penalties and bonuses. Amended, see rule 311.

311. Every participant on the board has one vote.  All of the penalties and bonuses associated with voting for purposes of playing the game will be reserved  for any participants possessing the right to make proposals. Finally, the votes of players will count as three votes for determining if a measure shall pass, but will count as one vote for purposes of determining penalties and bonuses. Amended, see rule 315.

312. The non-player votes cannot overwhelm an 80% or higher player majority.

314: Carthrat is to be included in the game as a 7th player, in addition to his role as unofficial moderator.

315: Every player gains three votes every voting phase. Votes are expended during the voting phase as normal, however: A player may chose to use all, some, or none of his votes on a given proposal, with the weight of said votes tallied appropriately. A player who does not use a portion of his votes during any given turn may retain them for use in later turns. Any amount of votes can be spent, so long as the voter has possession of them, and there is no limit to the number of votes that can be held in stock.

A player cannot vote in multiple ways in any given turn; each vote must be for the same purpose (so you cannot vote both yea and nay in one turn.) No matter how many votes a player casts, when determining penalties and bonuses, the player counts as only having cast one vote.

Every non-player participant on the board gains one vote each turn, which may not be retained or saved; it must be used the same turn it is gained (or not used at all, in which case it expires); non-players count as eligible voters for the purpose of determining whether or not a proposal passes (ala rule 306), but they do not have to vote (ala rule 303). All the penalties and bonuses associated with voting for the purposes of playing the game will be reserved for players.

Rule 318: The points awarded to players in the fashion described by rule 309 will have the added mechanic:

The players now have the option to guess the way the mobb will vote (based on majority). If the players who choose to guess do so correctly, they will gain a bonus of 1 point per every mobb member that voted the way they guessed, capping off at +5. If they guess incorrectly, they will suffer a -1 point penalty per person who voted the opposite way to the one they guessed, capping off at -5. The choice to guess must be expressed during the voting phase.

Rule 319: Each player may pick a non-player partner. That partner gets control over one of the player's votes. The partner's vote is counted towards the player vote total. The player has the option of changing partners at the beginning of every turn, but cannot choose another partner for two turns after that. Any unused votes by the non-player will be credited towards the player's accrued votes. One may choose to cease having a partner at the cost of five points.
1) An eligible non-player partner is one that has voted in the mob in a turn previous to the player's choosing them as their partner.
2) If the non-player does not vote for four consecutive turns, the player is penalized twenty points.
3) If the player retains the same partner for four consecutive turns, he gains twenty points.
4) Non-players chosen as partners retain their Mob vote.

320. A rule-change is adopted if there is a positive majority among the eligible voters. A rule-change is not adopted if there is a majority negative vote. However, if there is a tie vote for whatever reason, the player proposing the vote and a negative voter, who shall be the first negative voter who follows the proposer in turn sequence, must compete head-to-head in a competition that is decided by consensus of the mob. Amended, see rule 325.

Mob consensus is defined as the first idea for competition that three members of the mob can agree on.

If the rule-change proposer wins, then the rule is adopted. If his opponent wins, then the rule counts as a failure and all negative voters gain five points.

Proposal 321: Bardiche should officially be labeled a meanie head who does not understand what a wall of text truly is for the remainder of the game. ;_;

BARDICHE is a meanie head who does not understand what a wall of text truly is for the remainder of the game. ;_;

322. All players shall now possess the option of entering into a state of peace, neutrality or war with another player. All players shall also be considered as starting in a state of neutrality at the time this law is passed. Advancing from war to either neutrality or peace, or from neutrality to peace, requires one player to propose the offer in the format ##Advance to (Peace/Neutrality) With:: [player name], and for the other player to confirm with Accepting (Peace/Neutrality) with:: [player name]. All movement from peace to either neutrality or war, or from neutrality to war, requires only one member to state in post ##Declaring (Neutrality/War) With:: to lower the relationship to the stated level. All changes in relationship statuses may occur during both proposal discussion and voting stages.

a) Peace. This relationship grants a +5 point bonus to two people in the relationship if their votes on a proposal are the same, and a -5 point penalty if their votes conflict. These point bonuses stack with other peace bonuses (so three people voting together under Peace will get +10 points). This does not count the number of votes, simply the affirmative/negative value of the votes.

b) Neutrality. This relationship has no point modifiers.

c) War. This relationship grants a +5 point bonus to two people in the relationship if their votes on a proposal are different, and a -5 point penalty if their votes are the same. These point bonuses stack with other war bonuses (so one person voting against three others he is at War with will get +15 points). This does not count the number of votes, simply the affirmative/negative value of the votes.

323. Following each voting phase, a non-player (hereby referred to as the Mobb Proposer) that voted that phase is randomly selected via Hatbot. During the subsequent discussion phase, the Mobb Proposer is allowed the option of making a proposal (separate and independent of the one that the current player is proposing). This proposal is then voted on like any other during the next voting phase.

The voting for the Mobb Proposer's proposal differs from norm in the following ways. Every eligible voter gets an additional vote to be used exclusively for this proposal - player's votes as counted with three times the normal weight. Rule 315 does not apply (players cannot choose to split up your votes or stockpile votes). Other rules associated with voting still apply so long as they are applicable (score-related voting rules cannot be applied to non-players, for instance).

324: During the Voting Phase, a player may send the (unofficial) Game Moderator a single PM, seperate from their vote PM to exchange Points with another player. The player must declare the amount of Points he wants to exchange, and to which Player. A player may never trade more Points than he currently possesses, and cannot trade Points if they have a negative amount of Points. If a player would be declared the victor through Point exchange, then the exchange is void.
Once exchanged, the specified amount of Points is deducted from the player what sent the PM, and added to the Points pool of the player specified in the PM.

325: A rule-change is adopted if and only if there is a positive majority among the eligible voters.  If, and only if, a vote requires unanimity, then the following two rules apply.  a) All bonus or penalties for voting for or against a proposal are nullified with the exception of those pertaining to the person making the proposal.  b) Though players are unaffected, there will be a single non-player vote.  This vote will be cast in accordance to the majority of the non-player votes cast on the motion in question.

328. If a player needs to be absent for any length of time for any reason, they may designate their partner to play in their place. They must notify the other players on the board for this to take effect. Any player's turns where they have not posted a resolution within 24 hours of the beginning of the round, their turn is considered skipped at no penalty other than the loss of the turn.

At any time, the moderator may designate a temporary moderator to handle affairs while he is incapacitated. In the case that the moderator disappears for a length of two days without posting, the players may elect another player or non-player to fill in as moderator with a vote of simple majority. The vote requires three players to motion for it to begin once the aforementioned time period has passed. This vote takes place immediately and publically as soon as the conditions are reached, and lasts 12 hours. At which point the results are taken as is. Should the moderator return during that time, the vote is immediately nulled.


Rejected Proposals

301. During the turn resolution stated in Mutable Rule 202, all text following (4) is instead replaced by the following: If the new rule is passed by a favorable majority, the player whose turn it is may add 15 points to their score.

304. Change Rule 105 to state the following: "While every player is an eligible voter, participation is made at the voter's discretion, but the voter will still be penalized for not voting. This ruling also establishes a 24-hour time limit for the voting phase - past that threshold, voting is closed off, and any non-voters will automatically labeled as abstaining. As a provision, a voter may send his verdict to the judge at any time in both phases of a turn until voting closes."

313. Mob members that vote, that also voted in the majority of votes where the mob was eligible to vote, will receive 6.749 points.

316. Addition to voting phase: the player proposing the rule (proposing player) change secretly picks a 'tactic' of either scissors, paper or rock. This choice is to be submitted to the game moderator along with the vote, and not read by the moderator until tallying. When a voter makes a vote during the voting phase, they may assign either scissors, paper or rock to that vote.
If the voter defeats the proposal's alignment, their vote is tripled. If there is a draw, the vote proceeds as normal. If the voter is defeated by the proposal, the voter's vote fails entirely and is not counted. A fail carries all the regular penalties for failing to vote in any given round.
A voter may choose not to play the tactic, and this rule does not apply to them.
Every time the proposing player defeats a vote, the proposal player gains 2 points (per vote defeated). For example, if a proposing player chooses scissors and a voter votes 3 times paper, the proposer gains 6 points.
If a voter is able to submit more than one vote, they may submit them under any tactic. For example, a player with three votes can submit one vote scissors, one paper and one rock.
The proposing player cannot state or hint what tactic he's using to others, at pain of instantly losing the game.
All participants are subject to this rule.
The proposal player may not play tactics against himself.

317. a) Players will alternate in alphabetical order by the name they signed up for the game under. Turns may not be skipped or passed, and parts of turns may not be omitted. All players begin with zero points, new players start with points equal to the player furthest from the winning condition.  "Player" is a term that will be specifically applied to anyone who is registered as a participant in this game, accrueing all of the rights and obligations accorded to someone in such a position.  "Non-Player" is any registered forum account that is not listed as a "Player" in the first page of this game.

b) Non-Players may make proposals to the Moderator, who will then post these proposals when the Voting Phase begins.  "Non-Players" each have one Proposal Vote to be used specifically to decide which Proposal they wish to put forward.  In the case of a tie, the Moderator will pick the winner.  The winning proposal will be unveiled when the next player Proposal is entered, and it will run side by side with the player proposal, with both being voted on.  If no proposals are put forward, then no Non-Player proposal will run alongside the Player proposal.  Also, when the voting phase is completed, all proposals are taken off the board and must be resubmitted if still wanted.  In any round where a second proposal is in effect, all eligable voters receive one additional vote that they may use as they wish.  This vote counts as one vote for both voting weight and scoring purposes.  Additional votes gained by other laws may be attached to this vote, but if so, as considered to count only as added weight, and will not count as additional votes for scoring purposes.

c)  Non-Player Proposals will start at 401 and are bound by all of the rules and laws which effect Player proposals.  As well, the person whose proposal is picked will gain Mobb Points equal to their proposal number minus 391, multiplied by the percentage of votes in favour of their proposal with -1 Mobb Point for each vote against.  Due to the group nature of the Commons, any Non-Player who votes against the winning proposal will gain 3 Mobb Points, while any Non-Player who votes for the winning Proposal will gain 10% of the Mobb Points gained by the person who made the winning proposal.

d)  Non-Players may win the game in the following manner.  In all of these cases, X equals the number of points needed for a player to win the game.  Any individial member of the Commons may win by accumulating X Mobb Points.  A victory in this matter grants victory to the Player with the most points, and causes everyone else to lose.  However, the Mobb may also win by collectively accumulating (.8X * 10) Mobb Points, in which case every Player loses, as well as the three Commons members closest to X, but everyone else with Mobb Points wins.

e) For purposes of unanimous votes, the Non-Players shall count only as a single Commons vote, to be decided by the outcome of their majority vote.  In this matter, a tie shall count as an abstention.

Rule 329. Amendment to rule 323. Following each voting phase, a non-player (hereby referred to as the Mobb Proposer) that voted that phase is randomly selected via Hatbot. During the subsequent discussion phase, the Mobb Proposer is allowed to choose from the following:
a) Making a proposal (separate and independent of the one that the current player is proposing). This proposal is then voted on like any other during the next voting phase.
b) Foregoing the proposal and choosing a Mobb Proposer of their liking for the next phase instead of relying on the Bot of Hate.
c) Doing nothing!

The voting for the Mobb Proposer's proposal differs from norm in the following ways. Every eligible voter gets an additional vote to be used exclusively for this proposal - player's votes as counted with three times the normal weight. Rule 315 does not apply (players cannot choose to split up your votes or stockpile votes). Other rules associated with voting still apply so long as they are applicable (score-related voting rules cannot be applied to non-players, for instance).

330. Players cannot earn 200 points. A player may score no higher than 199 points under normal circumstances. At any time a player may challenge the mob to name a competition and a representative. The first suggestion for competition that has support of three members of the mob is considered the official challenge, and the first mob member to receive the support of three other members of the mob is declared their champion. Defeating the mob champion in an official competition awards exactly one point, and this point overrides the limitation on being able to score 200 points.

331. Transmute Rule 111 to a mutable rule.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 12:36:26 AM by Taishyr »
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Carthrat

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008, 04:04:34 AM »
Nomic -- Turn One

Players - Points

1. AndrewRogue - 0
2. EvilTom - 0
3. Excal - 0
4. Jo'ou Ranbu - 0
5. Soppy - 0
6. Smodge - 0
7. VerySlightlyMad - 0

It is AndrewRogue's turn! Please propose a change to the rules! Your rule-number is 301.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 05:42:23 AM by Carthrat »
WHAT BENEFITS CAN ONE GET FROM SCIENTOLOGY?

EvilTom

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2008, 04:10:44 AM »
Ooh interesting, this looks fun :D
Can't wait to get started, come on Andy ^^
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AndrewRogue

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2008, 06:22:04 AM »
301. During the turn resolution stated in Mutable Rule 202, all text following (4) is instead replaced by the following: If the new rule is passed by a favorable majority, the player whose turn it is may add 15 points to their score.

---

I hate math. That math is too complicated and heavily favors later rules. This method flattens the curve and retains a fine risk vs reward ratio, allowing us, the voters, to push the boundaries of the system without fear of unconquerable penalty.

Plus. If you don't vote yes, you're a fucking communist.

Commie.

Carthrat

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2008, 06:25:45 AM »
Discussion phase now begins. Discussion phase will end in 48 hours, after which voting will commence. AndrewRogue may amend his proposal during this time.
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EvilTom

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2008, 06:54:05 AM »
So if your proposal passes, you will get 40+ points, but the rest of us will get a maximum of 15 per turn?
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AndrewRogue

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2008, 07:19:07 AM »
First and foremost, I'm about 99% sure that I can only get 15 points. Functionally, the original rule AND the new rule cannot exist at the same time (as mine is specifically a replacement). According to Carth, the new rule comes into effect as soon as it is successfully voted in. This means that step (3) would occur (the proposal is voted on). If it is successfully voted in, it immediately takes effect, meaning that the text of (4) is replaced by my own, resulting in a net of 15 points for me.

More to the point, this kinda proves my point on the math thing. If, somehow, I got both scores at once, the max I could score is 25.

(301-291)*(x/7), where X is the number of successful votes. Or, to simplify, 10/(4/7) or (5/7) or (6/7) or 1, making the max for the original ruling 10. The math, although not really complex, only gets uglier as the numbers scale up.

To put it out there, I am willing to amend my proposal to involve a sliding scale that reflects the relative number of votes rather than a flat value, for all that I currently perfer that.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 07:22:34 AM by AndrewRogue »

Smodge13

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2008, 07:31:59 AM »
so basically with this rule in place the only way to score points will be to successfully pass a rule, no partial points as the original 202 (4) would award

Smodge13

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2008, 07:45:01 AM »
I dislike the wording, it makes rule 202 partially immutable, because if the rule as it currently stands is passed we would then have
If my understanding is correct.

202. One turn consists of four parts in this order: (1) the player who's turn it is must propose one rule-change. (2) All players may discuss the rulechange if so desired. The proposer of the rule may amend his suggestion during this period. Part 2 may not take longer than 48 hours. (3) The proposed change is voted upon. (4) The player whose turn it is subtracts 291 from the ordinal number of their proposal and multiplies the result by the fraction of favorable votes it received, rounded to the nearest integer. They may then add this total to their score.

301. During the turn resolution stated in Mutable Rule 202, all text following (4) is instead replaced by the following: If the new rule is passed by a favorable majority, the player whose turn it is may add 15 points to their score.

Which as a result if anyone else wanted to change rule 202 (4) they couldn't without first replacing rule 301 as any addition after (4) would then still get replaced by 301.

Is this correct or am i making a mountain out of a molehill?

would it not be better to have just amended 202?

Also something to look at

203. A rule-change is adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. If this rule is not amended by the end of the second complete circuit of turns, it automatically changes to require only a simple majority.

We need unanimity for this rulechange and the next keep that in mind.

Smodge13

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2008, 07:49:34 AM »
Also lets look at the consequences of this proposal end game.

With rule 301 in place

Timmy is on 99 points it is his turn
No one votes but himself, rule is not passed, no points awarded.

Frank also on 99 points
franks turn comes along, once again no one votes to pass the rule but himself, no majority, no points awarded.

202 as it stands both players would at least be awarded some points.

However with 301 in place, we could work ourselves into an endless loop where no one will vote for a rule to be passed lest it lost them the game and as such, no one would win

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2008, 07:50:48 AM »
(301-291)*(x/7), where X is the number of successful votes. Or, to simplify, 10/(4/7) or (5/7) or (6/7) or 1, making the max for the original ruling 10. The math, although not really complex, only gets uglier as the numbers scale up.
Ah, I didn't divide it properly. That's evidence that we need a process involving less maths >.>

Quote
205. An adopted rule-change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.
I can see where your argument is coming from (re; being affected by your own rule). You definately wouldn't be affected twice, it would be once at most.
However I believe you would not be affected by it at all; The scoring phase is listed as (4), but your rule doesn't exist until after it has passed. The scoring should be applied at the same time as the process.

To illustrate:

Quote
107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application.
It's not possible for you to be affected by a rule that doesn't exist yet. Therefore you cannot be affected by your own rule proposal. You will be scored on the current rule.


Smodge1: good point; there will be no more partial scoring if this proposal goes ahead.
Smodge2: re-read the rules on amendments, you've got it wrong.
Smodge3: Yes, needs to be unanimous it seems.
Smodge4: stop ninjaing me you bastard. Yes, partial scoring looks like it might be needed.
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Smodge13

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2008, 08:03:21 AM »
oh i see so 202 would instead become rule 301 yeah?

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2008, 08:19:02 AM »
Most likely.

Anyhow. While I do see the point for a more elegant scoring method, the timing is a little bit... ummm, convenient, Andy? I'm all for creating a less convoluted scoring scale for the game, but, unfortunately, no can do without addressing at least the caveats that would give you a free lead assuming this rule came to pass. Then, there's the fact that passing rules as the only scoring method feels... well, unkind.

Granted, I guess smodge highlighted the issues with the ruling better than I, sleepy and vaguely deranged at 5AM, ever could right now. I'm not buying the idea without reworking the mechanics of it, though.

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[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
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AndrewRogue

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2008, 09:39:08 AM »
EvilTom: I clarified it with Rat. The rule comes into effect immediately after it is voted in, that being point (3). The process is specifically broken into four steps, with the voting and resolution BEFORE the scoring.

Snow: Your comment is, frankly, silly. Yes. I get a free lead if this rule comes to pass. I would get a free lead if ANY rule change passed. I went first :p

Smodge: The problem there is that, functionally, this is a game of negotiation. As it stands, no one has any motivation to actually assist in developing rulings (unless the rule is a bigger screw job to someone else), as ANY ruling inherently benefits the person who suggested it (by virtue of points gained). Your scenario posits an interesting suggestion... except for the fact that in ANY structure (even the default) neither player will win, because the rest of the majority will continuously strive to shut them down and alter the rules in such a way that the fractional points they are achieving won't matter.

To put it simply, the scenario you describe will occur regardless of whether or not my resolution actually passes. Further, you fail to account for the penalties for failing, which will open the game back up and allow resolutions to pass once more.

As it stands, all I'm really doing is streamlining the numbers involved in the game so that we have a clear cut line to work with at the beginning. You imagine this gives me lead. You fail to account for the fact that the group, on the whole, has the power to move the goal line back and prevent my success whenever, regardless.

Any presumed "lead" this would grant me is largely imagined. My change is simply a trick of convenience. Feel free to pass something to restabalize the field afterwards, but I highly suggest we nevertheless come up with a simplified scoring track and allow its resolution. If you really wish, I will develop a scaling system to make you feel like there is progress each turn. How about something like you score 1 point per vote, and an additional 8 if the resolution passes.

*shrugs*

Excal

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2008, 10:46:35 AM »
Let's also keep in consideration the fact that there is an alternate method of gaining points after we're no longer at the point where a unanimous consensus is needed to pass resolutions.  There is the 10 point bonus for voting against a passing motion.

That ability actually makes me curious about the worth of making it so that a person attempting to pass a motion can barely break ahead of people who are willing to vote no simply because it's a no risk proposition for themselves, whereas it is a risky proposition for the person making the proposal.  Or, to put it a different way, why would we want to add to the incentive for people to hedge their votes towards a no stance.

I think that in this case favouring a flat bonus would be better than a situational bonus until we've looked at exactly how those two rules would interact.

Veryslightlymad

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2008, 12:59:31 PM »
I propose a radical compromise.

We adopt Andrew's system, but to penalize him, the next few of us devote time to adding negatives to all instances of scoring, including the final winning score target number.

Our new streamlined system is adopted, and Andrew gets penalized instead of arbitrarily awarded for going first.

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2008, 06:20:12 PM »
Iiiiiiiiiii dunno there, VSM. The compromise is... a bit too radical, and nonsensical to boot. Keep in mind that pulling that off... well, it'll be honestly very short-term for the game's mechanics. Once Andrew has passed that change, he'll be penalized, sure. But, unless we make verrrrrrrrrrry careful changes, the next people to get laws passed will -also- be penalized, and people probably won't want to make new rules, breaking the game's purpose. It makes far less sense than the arbitrary reward of going first. That idea would be hamstringing the game long-term, unless we crafted it very specifically, and with the timeframe we have, that's not very viable.

Then, I believe Andrew would fight fiercely against that idea. =P

Also, Andrew, I meant that you'd get a bigger lead than you'd get just for going first. Smodge and Tom laid the lowdown: you'd be affected by the old rules as this one passes, since no laws can work retroactively. Just sort of a bones of the business thing. And hey, I said I wasn't very lucid. >_>
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

AndrewRogue

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2008, 08:07:50 PM »
How about this compromise, for the time being?

301. During the turn resolution stated in Mutable Rule 202, the following text is added at the end of (4): Once points have been awarded in this fashion once, all text following (4) will be replaced by the following: If the new rule is passed by a favorable majority, the player whose turn it is may add 15 points to their score.

This way, we insure that I score less points than future resolutions instead of being arbitrarily rewarded for both going first and being the first to propose a scoring change. This would, since we need a unanimous score, put me at 10 points, while providing the lot of you the opportunity to score 15 points in this first round.

Again, I'm willing to implement a sliding scale, but I think, for the reasons I've already stated, that is unnecessary. The game itself will take care of that.

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2008, 09:37:36 PM »
Just putting this out there, Andrews rule would not favor him any more than anyone else who passed a rule.

Assuming unanimous.

(301-291)*(7/7)
= 10*1
= 10

As opposed to Andrews rule which gives him and everyone in the future a flat bonus of 15 pts

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2008, 09:42:38 PM »
Shakes head.  You lost me when you started talking high math.  I swear I understood like half of the above posts.  From what I can see, though, it doesn't seem like a bad rule and anything that makes the math less esoteric is good in my mind.  I'd be willing to vote for the compromise Andy just put out.
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Excal

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2008, 10:31:56 PM »
Alright, I've considered this, and double checked the math involved, and...  I've come to the conclusion that I actually dislike this change.  Snow has brought up a good point in that the current arrangement automatically corrects for the advantage of going first, but it also acts as a method of ensuring the game doesn't go on forever by making later rules worth more.

Also, there's one major flaw in having a flat bonus that would need to be addressed if this rule were to pass.  Namely, the person proposing the rule would get no benefit if his rule failed, and would instead receive a -10 point penalty.  So, it would either be +X, or -10 points fixed for the person whose turn it is to propose a rule.  Whereas in a sliding scale, there's a reward for even just narrowly missing the target.

And, having reread the formula, and double checked with Smodge's take on the formula, I find that the math is simple enough that there shouldn't be any issues with book keeping under the current formula.

Veryslightlymad

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2008, 11:48:37 PM »
I think the "rest" of us need to change the system from points ASAP.

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2008, 11:51:08 PM »
And change it to what, exactly?  How would you determine victory after doing away with the points system?

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2008, 11:58:41 PM »
Not only that, "points" is merely semantics. How would you determine what makes one player get an advantage over another? You're going to use a system that points to some sort of scaled earnings, unless you're advocating Calvinball (and possibly even Calvinball had SOME sort of scoring system <_<). You can't really toss a "let's switch things upside down yay!" blanket statement without providing at least a barebones replacement system. And, considering most anything to come up with will be some variant on a points system -anyway-, this would just be pointless, not to say downright inelegant.

Although I guess Excal makes a good point in that the math involved... isn't really daunting at all, and, while not entirely simplistic, is probably elegant enough. I... honestly wouldn't mind keeping the scoring system going as it is for a round or two before proposing changes. Need to see some empiric evidence of it not working properly.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
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[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
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AndrewRogue

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Re: Nomic - Turn One
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2008, 12:07:20 AM »
The main problem is that all of the pushes against it fail to acknowledge the fact that all I'm doing is simplifying the baseline until we have an understanding of how the game actually works. The problem with the suggestion of keeping it the same is that it doesn't actually account for anything, and certainly doesn't allow someone to push a win though, since, once that becomes a realistic possibility, the voting group, on the whole, will push a rule to deny victory.

Since that's the case, why keep a silly scaling system that requires we start pushing mathematical point tables to actually figure out when someone is getting close to winning? This gives us a clear picture, instead of requiring that we hash out numerous mathematical possibilities... all so that we can just end up changing the rules to deny victory later anyway?