Author Topic: Nomic - Turn Twenty Eight (tai sez: omnomnom) (Read 81109 times)

Veryslightlymad · « **Reply #850 on:** February 09, 2009, 11:18:51 PM »

330:

When a player achieves a victory condition of any kind, the player does not yet win the game. Instead, the mob arranges a challenge of one of their own versus the player about to win. The challenge is selected by being the first proposed challenge to reach support of three members of the mob. The mob then has 24 hours to vote on which member of their own should compete with the projected winner.

If the player defeats the mob representative in whatever challenge, then s/he wins the game as normal.
However, if the player loses:
1)If the player were to have won through scoring points, their point total is reset to the number they had in the previous round, and gameplay continues
2)If the player were to have won through the game being impossible to continue, then the game still ends and all players are declared losers.

Laggy · « **Reply #851 on:** February 09, 2009, 11:22:35 PM »

Violates Rule 111 (immutable).

Quoting for convenience:

Quote

111. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed.

n-factorial · « **Reply #852 on:** February 09, 2009, 11:26:11 PM »

wow, it's almost as if the proposal in my previous page was timed to match with vsm's.

on a side note, though, victory condition is still "achieve n votes" under VSM's rule, it's just "acheive n votes (and...)". this comes down to a literal vs loose interpretation of the ~~constitu~~ nomiconstitution; is an extension of a concept allowed so long as the base is still present?

Veryslightlymad · « **Reply #853 on:** February 09, 2009, 11:31:05 PM »

Sure, I can work with that.

330:

Players cannot earn 200 points. A player may score no higher than 199 points under normal circumstances. At any time a player may challenge the mob to name a competition and a representative. The first suggestion for competition that has support of three members of the mob is considered the official challenge, and the first mob member to receive the support of three other members of the mob is declared their champion. Defeating the mob champion in an official competition awards exactly one point, and this point overrides the limitation on being able to score 200 points.

Players may not challenge the mob more than once per every two rounds.

Laggy · « **Reply #854 on:** February 09, 2009, 11:32:44 PM »

I'm pretty sure I'd see an extension as changing the base, yeah. Otherwise that rule is nearly worthless, honestly, as an immutable.

Laggy · « **Reply #855 on:** February 09, 2009, 11:36:16 PM »

VSM, that doesn't handle what happens if the mob ends up not naming a competition or champion (or one but not both). You would stall the game indefinitely in theory if that were to occur.

n-factorial · « **Reply #856 on:** February 09, 2009, 11:37:22 PM »

Laggy: well, it prevent switching the game to a lot of other systems without a ton of looparound rulechanges,

Laggy · « **Reply #857 on:** February 09, 2009, 11:39:58 PM »

True, but when the rule specifically states WHAT conditions of the victory may be changed, it leaves me with the impression that you can't just tack on something else on top of it and not call it changing the base, basically. (Since 111 specifically refers to being able to change n points and how to earn points.)

Bardiche · « **Reply #858 on:** February 09, 2009, 11:51:14 PM »

Wait nevermind.

I'd vote Yea to VSM's proposal.

Excal · « **Reply #859 on:** February 10, 2009, 06:00:15 AM »

Eh, I dislike the idea of changing the requirement to win a game of nomic from being good at nomic to being good at whatever the folks who aren't playing think is a good idea. Even more so since it means that if the people in question do not provide anything, then it is impossible to win. So I'm fairly against VSM's proposal.

As for n-factorial's proposal, that's one of the ones I was looking at when I made my last proposal, so I'm all for that one.

Veryslightlymad · « **Reply #860 on:** February 10, 2009, 07:15:24 AM »

Somehow I doubt we have to worry about mob inactivity.

This is a trivial pursuit rule, basically. Or going up two points in Tennis or Volleyball. That's all.

n-factorial · « **Reply #861 on:** February 10, 2009, 12:14:44 PM »

it's not a case of mob inactivity so much as mob disagreement/disconsensus.

as such, pushing forth suggested revision to vsm proposal:

1) Players cannot earn 200 points. A player may score no higher than 199 points under normal circumstances.

2) At any time a player may challenge the mob to name a competition and a representative. The first suggestion for competition that has support of three members of the mob is considered the official challenge, and the first mob member to receive the support of three other members of the mob is declared their champion.

3) Defeating the mob champion in an official competition awards exactly one point, and this point overrides the limitation on being able to score 200 points.

4) If the mob fails to decide on the challenge and the mob champion within 48 hours of any challenge being made, the player so mentioned is considered to have defeated the mob champion in the official contest for all purposes as regarding section 3.

also good to know that transmuting 111 would garner appeal. other people, chime in?

i was actually considering a version of vsm's proposal, but allowing for mob victory. so this works out okay.

Talaysen · « **Reply #862 on:** February 10, 2009, 07:56:53 PM »

And then someone comes along and changes the winning condition to 300 points!

Veryslightlymad · « **Reply #863 on:** February 10, 2009, 10:04:39 PM »

I see nothing wrong with that. Then we'd have to win 101 competitions.

>Nod<

n-factorial · « **Reply #864 on:** February 10, 2009, 10:23:28 PM »

oooh, good point, forgot to account for that in revision.

1) Players cannot score n points, where n is the current number of points needed to achieve victory. A player may score no higher than n-1 points under normal circumstances.

2) At any time a player may challenge the mob to name a competition and a representative. The first suggestion for competition that has support of three members of the mob is considered the official challenge, and the first mob member to receive the support of three other members of the mob is declared their champion.

3) Defeating the mob champion in an official competition awards exactly one point, and this point overrides the limitation on being able to score n points.

4) If the mob fails to decide on the challenge and the mob champion within 48 hours of any challenge being made, the player so mentioned is considered to have defeated the mob champion in the official contest for all purposes as regarding section 3.

Hunter Sopko · « **Reply #865 on:** February 12, 2009, 08:40:43 AM »

Quote from: n-factorial on February 10, 2009, 10:23:28 PM

1) Players cannot score n points, where n is the current number of points needed to achieve victory. A player may score no higher than n-1 points under normal circumstances.

This... technically would mean you can't score n points at once, it wouldn't change what you want it to. But people can debate me on this. Proposing a seperate wording that may clear that up if necessary.

1) A player's score cannot be greater than or equal to n points, where n is the current number of points needed to achieve victory. A player's score may be no higher than n-1 points under normal circumstances.

Ranmilia · « **Reply #866 on:** February 12, 2009, 10:57:15 AM »

I love the idea of competitions, but I'm not sure how the "first to three" stuff would work out. Seems like it'd turn into a realtime topic race, wherein if there are three mob members who want the player on the block to win, they'll just propose something and throw it (not so likely), and if there are three mob members who do not want the player on the block to win, they'll propose a competition that the player has no chance whatsoever of winning (considerably more likely, sadly). It should probably be at the very least open to a full mob vote for some period of time.

Laggy · « **Reply #867 on:** February 12, 2009, 07:13:35 PM »

Voting phase! Yeah I'm late.

--

Rule 330. Players cannot earn 200 points. A player may score no higher than 199 points under normal circumstances. At any time a player may challenge the mob to name a competition and a representative. The first suggestion for competition that has support of three members of the mob is considered the official challenge, and the first mob member to receive the support of three other members of the mob is declared their champion. Defeating the mob champion in an official competition awards exactly one point, and this point overrides the limitation on being able to score 200 points.

Players may not challenge the mob more than once per every two rounds.

--

Rule 331. Transmute Rule 111 to a mutable rule.

Laggy · « **Reply #868 on:** February 13, 2009, 05:36:29 PM »

Rule 330. Players cannot earn 200 points. A player may score no higher than 199 points under normal circumstances. At any time a player may challenge the mob to name a competition and a representative. The first suggestion for competition that has support of three members of the mob is considered the official challenge, and the first mob member to receive the support of three other members of the mob is declared their champion. Defeating the mob champion in an official competition awards exactly one point, and this point overrides the limitation on being able to score 200 points.

Players may not challenge the mob more than once per every two rounds.

Carthrat: Nay
EvilTom: Nay
Jo'ou Ranbu: Nay (Laggy: Nay)
Sopko: Nay
Excal: Nay Nay Nay
Andrew: Abstained
VSM: Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea

Laggy: Nay
QuietRain: Nay
Bardiche: Yea
Gatewalker: Nay
n-factorial: Nay
Talaysen: Nay
Xanth: Nay

6 in favor, 14 against

This proposal was REJECTED!

--

Rule 331. Transmute Rule 111 to a mutable rule.

Carthrat: Nay
EvilTom: Nay
Jo'ou Ranbu: Nay
Sopko: Nay
Excal: Yea
Andrew: Abstained
VSM: Yea

Laggy: Yea
QuietRain: Nay
Bardiche: Yea
Gatewalker: Yea
n-factorial: Yea
Talaysen: Yea
Xanth: Yea
(Total nonplayer vote: Yea)

Unanimous vote required (failed)

This proposal was REJECTED!

<->

Points
1. AndrewRogue: -82
2. Carthrat: 156 (Partner: Corwin)
3. EvilTom: 125
4. Excal: 193 (Partner: QuietRain)
5. Jo'ou Ranbu: 150 (Partner: Laggy)
6. Sopko: 142 (Partner: SirAlex)
7. VerySlightlyMad: 27

Point Changes
AndrewRogue: -10 not voting
Carthrat: +0 war, +10 peace (diplomacy mods +10 total), +20 partnered for four turns
EvilTom: -5 war (diplomacy mods -5 total)
Excal: +5 war, +10 peace (diplomacy mods +15 total), +20 partnered for four turns
Jo'ou Ranbu: +5 war, +10 peace (diplomacy mods +15 total)
Sopko: +20 partnered for four turns
VerySlightlyMad: -11 defeated proposal, +15 war (diplomacy mods +15 total)

Votecount
AndrewRogue: 39
Carthrat: 26
EvilTom: 20
Excal: 25
Jo'ou: 18
Sopko: 20
VerySlightlyMad: 22

Diplomacy
AndrewRogue - Neutral to All
Carthrat - EvilTom (W), VerySlightlyMad (W), Excal (P), Jo'ou Ranbu (P)
EvilTom - Carthrat (W)
Excal - Carthrat (P), Jo'ou Ranbu (P), VerySlightlyMad (W)
Jo'ou Ranbu - Carthrat (P), Excal (P), VerySlightlyMad (W)
Sopko - Neutral to All
VerySlightlyMad - Carthrat (W), Excal (W), Jo'ou Ranbu (W)

--

Discussion phase!

It is AndrewRogue's turn! Please propose a change to the rules. Your rule-change number is 332.

Hatbot has selected Tallychu to propose a change to the rules! His rule-change number is 333, should he choose to make it.

Laggy · « **Reply #869 on:** February 13, 2009, 07:20:37 PM »

Scoring errors corrected after I realized 331 required an unanimous vote to pass and Excal's last rule-change made scoring mechanics for it effectively void.

AndrewRogue · « **Reply #870 on:** February 13, 2009, 07:33:49 PM »

332: AndrewRogue's point total is automatically set at the number of points required to win the game.

Bardiche · « **Reply #871 on:** February 13, 2009, 07:37:15 PM »

Would vote Yea.

Excal · « **Reply #872 on:** February 13, 2009, 07:47:17 PM »

Hrmm... this is an interesting proposal that offers all kinds of shades and nuances to the game, adding an extra dimension of complexity that accents the diplomatic co...

yeah, I can't keep a straight face.

I think I state the stunningly obvious when I say that there is no revision that can be added on that will make me vote for the core of this proposal.

AndrewRogue · « **Reply #873 on:** February 13, 2009, 08:12:55 PM »

332: AndrewRogue's point total is automatically set at the number of points required to win the game. In addition, Excal gets a cookie.

Yakumo · « **Reply #874 on:** February 13, 2009, 08:14:51 PM »

I warned you people back when you split the votes that something like this was going to happen without a cap. He hasn't used even one vote since you allowed the stockpiling and now there's 39 votes sitting there waiting to say "I win", plus the random mob people who very well may say yes to this. Or he could be bluffing and trying to set up an even bigger advantage. Or waiting to see the reaction to decide. Of course, if he is bluffing there's nothing you can do to stop him except delay until the Rat and Tom's vote stocks come back so you can pass something that stops him from doing this NEXT the next time he gets a turn.

In other words, I told you so.

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Author Topic: Nomic - Turn Twenty Eight (tai sez: omnomnom) (Read 81109 times)

Bardiche

Bardiche