Author Topic: Nomic - Turn Twenty Eight (tai sez: omnomnom) (Read 83013 times)

n-factorial · « **Reply #900 on:** February 16, 2009, 11:29:40 AM »

Quote from: Carthrat on February 16, 2009, 08:20:32 AM

Now is a good time to remind everyone of this rule.

312. The non-player votes cannot overwhelm an 80% or higher player majority.

MAJORITY clearly requires a judgement. Does it mean a majority of players voting at all, or a majority of player *votes*? I say the former.

Anyone disagree? If so, invoking JUDGEMENT, VSM DECIDES

Also

##Declaring War with:: Excal

Also, to the mob: Andrew would still be the winner even if he failed to send out cookies because his points would have already been 200+ (and furthermore, there is no end-date specified for their arrival.) Everyone else, however, would remain losers (and there`s no such thing as a `losing value` of points.)

does this mean we send votes to you or laggy?

Cmdr_King · « **Reply #901 on:** February 16, 2009, 03:39:34 PM »

I already sent a vote to laggy myself, so I'd like to think that either laggy is collecting them or he just forwarded any of his votes (for all I doubt most people voted as soon as they saw it was time) to rat.

Talaysen · « **Reply #902 on:** February 16, 2009, 05:57:41 PM »

Quote from: Carthrat on February 16, 2009, 08:20:32 AM

Now is a good time to remind everyone of this rule.

312. The non-player votes cannot overwhelm an 80% or higher player majority.

MAJORITY clearly requires a judgement. Does it mean a majority of players voting at all, or a majority of player *votes*? I say the former.

Anyone disagree? If so, invoking JUDGEMENT, VSM DECIDES

Also

##Declaring War with:: Excal

Also, to the mob: Andrew would still be the winner even if he failed to send out cookies because his points would have already been 200+ (and furthermore, there is no end-date specified for their arrival.) Everyone else, however, would remain losers (and there`s no such thing as a `losing value` of points.)

Says player majority. Not player vote majority. Seems straightforward enough to me. Doesn't even say the player has to vote at all.

Also:

107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application.

Second clause. Just to nail in Rat's point.

AndrewRogue · « **Reply #903 on:** February 16, 2009, 06:25:39 PM »

Welp. That's my bad for missing that. Here I am not trying to be problematic and I'm running into issues.

Talaysen · « **Reply #904 on:** February 16, 2009, 08:05:50 PM »

Quote from: AndrewRogue on February 16, 2009, 06:25:39 PM

Welp. That's my bad for missing that. Here I am not trying to be problematic and I'm running into issues.

I kind of figured it was JUST AS PLANNED.

Excal · « **Reply #905 on:** February 16, 2009, 09:34:35 PM »

Probably was, but that's not the sort of thing you admit until it actually has gone as planned. That tends to have bad consequences.

Taishyr · « **Reply #906 on:** February 16, 2009, 10:32:30 PM »

Sure, but worst comes to worst, chat convinces Lady Door to beat him up until he produces cookies.

Carthrat · « **Reply #907 on:** February 17, 2009, 12:11:09 AM »

Sure, *her* cookies.

Keep sending votes to laggy kthx.

Taishyr · « **Reply #908 on:** February 17, 2009, 02:27:52 AM »

If he tries to do that LadyDoor can just beat harder. >_>

Laggy · « **Reply #909 on:** February 17, 2009, 08:43:58 AM »

Rule 332. AndrewRogue's point total is automatically set at the number of points required to win the game. In addition, everyone who votes to pass this proposal will receive a cookie. If any of the cookies are not sent out, Andrew's points are retroactively set to a losing value and all mob members who voted to pass this proposal become players. Then every player who voted to pass this proposal has their points set to the number of points required to win the game.

Carthrat: Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay (10)
EvilTom: Abstained
Jo'ou Ranbu: Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay (5)
Sopko: Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea (Alex: Yea) (23)
Excal: Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay (27)
Andrew: Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea Yea (42)
VSM: Abstained

Laggy: Nay
Yakumo: Yea
CmdrKing: Yea
Nitori: Yea
Dhyerwolf: Nay
Alex: Yea
Talaysen: Nay
Kilga: Yea
QuietRain: Nay
Xanth: Nay
n-factorial: Yea
Bardiche: Yea
Ryogo: Yea
Gatewalker: Yea
Tonfa: Yea
Ciato: Nay

75 in favor, 49 against

This proposal was PASSED!

<->

Points
1. AndrewRogue: 200
2. Carthrat: 166 (Partner: Corwin)
3. EvilTom: 115
4. Excal: 213 (Partner: QuietRain)
5. Jo'ou Ranbu: 170 (Partner: Laggy)
6. Sopko: 142 (Partner: SirAlex)
7. VerySlightlyMad: 17

Point Changes
AndrewRogue: +63 successful proposal, +5 war, +0 peace (diplomacy mods +5 total)
Carthrat: +10 "Nay" on passed proposal, -5 war, +5 peace (diplomacy mods +0 total)
EvilTom: -10 not voting
Excal: +10 "Nay" on passed proposal, +5 war, +5 peace (diplomacy mods +10 total)
Jo'ou Ranbu: +10 "Nay" on passed proposal, +0 war, +10 peace (diplomacy mods +10 total)
Sopko: none
VerySlightlyMad: -10 not voting

Votecount
AndrewRogue: 0
Carthrat: 19
EvilTom: 23
Excal: 1
Jo'ou Ranbu: 20
Sopko: 0
VerySlightlyMad: 25

Diplomacy
AndrewRogue - Excal (W)
Carthrat - EvilTom (W), VerySlightlyMad (W), Excal (W), Jo'ou Ranbu (P)
EvilTom - Carthrat (W)
Excal - VerySlightlyMad (W), Carthrat (W), AndrewRogue (W), Jo'ou Ranbu (P)
Jo'ou Ranbu - Carthrat (P), Excal (P), VerySlightlyMad (W)
Sopko - Neutral to All
VerySlightlyMad - Carthrat (W), Excal (W), Jo'ou Ranbu (W)

--

Barring any unforeseen circumstances and/or my misreading of the rules,

AndrewRogue is the winner of this Nomic game!

Disclaimer: Feel free to invoke judgment on this matter if you feel it is worth of debate, I really don't know for certain otherwise.

Hunter Sopko · « **Reply #910 on:** February 17, 2009, 09:00:01 AM »

Quote

As there is no concrete definition as to when point distribution occurs in the voting process, the most reasonable conclusion I can arrive to is that they occur at the same time - at the moment that voting is completed.

This came up during discussion, and you didn't correct us then of what the correct ruling was. Why wait until after the vote to tell us?

Yakumo · « **Reply #911 on:** February 17, 2009, 09:04:04 AM »

Frankly, if I were being that nitpicky with the rules, I would say that since they never stated when the points would be added to the score, then the points were NEVER added to the score. Makes more sense than arbitrarily deciding that Excal's points count before the proposal that was voted on takes effect. >_>

Ranmilia · « **Reply #912 on:** February 17, 2009, 09:08:58 AM »

A.
202. One turn consists of four parts in this order: (1) the player who's turn it is must propose one rule-change. (2) All players may discuss the rulechange if so desired. The proposer of the rule may amend his suggestion during this period. Part 2 may not take longer than 48 hours. (3) The proposed change is voted upon. (4) The player whose turn it is subtracts 291 from the ordinal number of their proposal and multiplies the result by the fraction of favorable votes it received, rounded to the nearest integer. They may then add this total to their score.

205. An adopted rule-change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.

202 is quite clear as a turn order guide, scoring happens after voting, while rulechanges take effect upon completion of vote. Unless you say that the scoring phase in (4) is separate from the scoring when other players cast votes, in which case....

B.

Quote

The rules here are subtly in conflict in that they cause a condition that cannot happen under the current rules: multiple victors.

213. If the rules are changed so that further play is impossible, or if the legality of a move cannot be determined with finality, or if by the Judge's best reasoning, not overruled, a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the first player unable to complete a turn is the winner.

This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the winner.

In accordance with 202, again, the immediate adoption of the rule creating an impossible situation makes it impossible for Andrew to legally complete his turn with the scoring phase in (4) of 202, and 213 then takes precedence over everything else making him the winner.

Laggy · « **Reply #913 on:** February 17, 2009, 09:10:09 AM »

EDIT:

Just saw Alex's post.

202 flew over my head. Changing the ruling.

FURTHER EDIT:

Since 202 pretty much clarifies dead-on when the scoring process happens, there's no real contestment as to when such things get resolved, so yeah. I'm going to go with that.

Apologies for the screwup, it's late and I've been barely coherent reading this tonight.

Carthrat · « **Reply #914 on:** February 17, 2009, 09:26:32 AM »

Man, Soppy, you lamer.

Hunter Sopko · « **Reply #915 on:** February 17, 2009, 09:35:43 AM »

I'm a lamer? I'm shocked you guys didn't countervote hard enough to even break Andy's raw value. I can maybe see you, Rat, since you may have thought your declaring War would keep Excal from winning so going softer on the vote would be prudent.

Snow's just confuses me. Maybe he thought the same as you, and decided to be even more prudent with the votes because A) Everyone would be anti-voting Andy or B) Andy's just probably messing with us anyway?

Carthrat · « **Reply #916 on:** February 17, 2009, 09:41:46 AM »

I was gambling, yes, and figured Excal would definately go nuts against this on his chance to win [or vote one yea on weird diplomacy games to gamble for the win, declaring war on everyone towards the end], and that you and Jo`ou would probably spend similarily to me under the assumption that ET and VSM had a high chance of not voting at all. If I'd messed up the guessing game or the mob screwed it, well, I was hoping to pull the same thing later.

Voting for it, though? What the heck, mang.

Excal · « **Reply #917 on:** February 17, 2009, 09:45:59 AM »

Eh, yeah. I can kinda see where Rat came from here. Cyril made a mistake and I should have been down 5 points from where I am, meaning at 203. So, without this passing, Rat would have been in a good place with me at 193. Snow, not sure what was up with him, though the two of them could have swung this.

Ah well. At least the finish was nicely contested. So, the game ended well. That reminds me, I should totally bake up some cookies for QR as thanks for being loyal to the end.

AndrewRogue · « **Reply #918 on:** February 17, 2009, 09:56:55 AM »

Hunter Sopko · « **Reply #919 on:** February 17, 2009, 10:15:50 AM »

Quote

Voting for it, though? What the heck, mang.

I was just gonna vote a simple single vote Nay at first, before it was shown that it was down to Excal and Andy for the win, since I figured (and rightfully so) that Andy was just messing with us. After that, I actually went to Andy to make sure of what he was doing at that point, since I didn't want to look stupid dropping all my votes if he was just still screwing with us, even though it was pretty much an absolute win or lose situation for him. Diplomacy shenanigans really didn't interest me. It was worth it more to me to throw support behind a friend for the win rather than MAYBE POSSIBLY extend play for another round so someone else could most likely win. Not that I didn't think about it, but I was way too far back to realistically catch up.

I thought it'd be a lot closer than it was, though.

QuietRain · « **Reply #920 on:** February 17, 2009, 08:18:06 PM »

Quote from: Excal on February 17, 2009, 09:45:59 AM

Ah well. At least the finish was nicely contested. So, the game ended well. That reminds me, I should totally bake up some cookies for QR as thanks for being loyal to the end.

Yeah, I have a nasty loyal streak. Gets me every time. ^_^

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #921 on:** February 17, 2009, 11:39:03 PM »

I thought other people would try harder than I would. And I guess I just wanted the game to end. >_> But hey, it's all good.

n-factorial · « **Reply #922 on:** August 05, 2009, 04:04:23 AM »

so, i've not seen a cookie. has anyone seen cookies?

or did andrew eat his forty-two cookies via a bizarre read of his own proposal and then forget to make any more?

QuietRain · « **Reply #923 on:** August 05, 2009, 07:27:46 AM »

You get mad props for giving him 6 months before calling him on it. <_<

He could have killed quite a few birds with a single stone by bringing some to DLCon.

Bardiche · « **Reply #924 on:** August 05, 2009, 01:06:24 PM »

If only the rule specified a timeframe.

News:

Author Topic: Nomic - Turn Twenty Eight (tai sez: omnomnom) (Read 83013 times)

Taishyr

Taishyr

Bardiche