Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 36

[Yakumo]

Oh?  Well, with the speed spread as small as it is that doesn't make much difference either way in this case but I'll try and remember that.

[Talaysen]

Oh?  Well, with the speed spread as small as it is that doesn`t make much difference either way in this case but I`ll try and remember that.

I figured it wouldn't actually matter.  Just saying!

And all WA2 buffs/debuffs are that way, for the record.

[Clear Tranquil]

Lucia DEFINITELY has MP restoration by this stage. As I remember from what I got from one of my SHC old files and the information I picked up when my old dungeon team was in - Gallery of the Dead, L24 Lucia,  Ocean, Grass, Misty and Night Oils, Rage and Gale spells definitely. Since SHC has two discs and roughly twenty four chapters irrc I blanket midgame at end of disc one, return to Apoina Tower in the game. Now as to whether or not she can access Moon Oil on floor three that I'm not certain on. I'm inclined to be generous and allow it though considering she picks it up right after Gallery of the Dead if I recall correctly and there is still the annoying Idar Flamme dungeon to go through before the return to Apoina Tower and the end of disc one. If she does have Moon Oil then yeah we are starting to get into Lucia's more broken supports now which does it for Magic as far as I'm concerned.

[Magic Fanatic]

OK, I...  Uh...

...

OK, if everyone's faster than the opposing team after Quick (which would make sense for at least Lucia and Mint, since under their system, they CAN take advantage of it right away), Lilka does so, Tir and Riou tink away at Zalbag, Lucia uses Moon + Night to give Tir and Riou auto-crits (which are TRIPLE NORMAL PHYSICAL DAMAGE if I remember correctly), and Mint uses Haste.  Overall effect:  my team is now given ~250% more speed than usual (depending on interpretation; if you see Haste as doing nothing, then Mint instead uses Acid Rain).

Other team goes.  Alma casts MBarrier.  Ramza uses Scream.  Zalbag uses Speed Ruin.  Net effect:  FFT team is MBarrier'd, has one Scream in use, and my team is now back to about average speed.

My turn again (somewhat):  Lilka uses Dispel.  MBarrier goes bye-bye.  Tir and Riou crit against Zalbag.  Zalbag goes bye-bye (thanks to auto-crits from Lucia and lowered defense from Mint's Acid Rain).  Next is probably Alma using MBarrier again followed by another Ramza Scream.  Lucia switches gears to using Gale.  Mint either uses Charge (to give Lucia more MP) or Delay (to slow down Team FFT, if you see it working).

Next round:  Lilka uses Dispel again (even after Hasting, Alma and Ramza aren't fast enough to lap Lilka right then and there, especially after Gale), Tir and Riou either tink defend.  Alma casts MBarrier again, Ramza uses Scream again...  OK, now it's getting dangerous.  Lucia uses Night + Moon again in anticipation, Mint uses Deep Mist to lower enemy accuracy.  Now, uh...  Crap, I'm getting lost in my numbers.

Now, uh...  Lilka's using Dispel again, and Tir/Riou go after Ramza this time (killing him), and then it's just a matter of surviving an Alma Ultima to win, right?

Bah...  I was getting so excited for when I'd finally get in, and I screw up like this...



EDIT:  Actually...  As far as I know, my speed would be HIGHER after a Zalbag Speed Ruin, since the value for the RFX (speed) increase has already been added by the time he gets his turn...  At least, I think so.

[Yakumo]

No, see.  If you leave the three FFT characters getting their turns uninterrupted, they don't NEED to buff.  They just kill you dead.  The reason I mention Quick making everyone go first being bad is that if you don't use Quick, then Mint and Lucia probably go between Ramza/Zalbag and Ultima firing, meaning you get to heal.  If you use Quick, you can't heal and all three hit and splatter you.  If you don't use Quick, then the MBarrier's haste makes them lap you, and you still get hit by all three.  Unless Gale is good enough to offset Speed Ruin and FFT haste, maybe?  I'd have to look, but that's about the only possibility I see here.

Edit: Yeah, Gale is apparently a much weaker spell than Quick; according to the stat topic it apparently only really makes your speed effectively 114% of what it was before.  Speed Ruin is 3 speed to a 10 average, so it's more of an effect, plus the FFT team is now all Orlandu speed in addition to that.

[Nephrite]

Out of curiosity, does Tir have Black Shadow yet? I don't know if that, in fact, matters, but I figured I'd ask nonetheless.

[Yakumo]

Due to the way Tir gets spells, in chat last night we called Black Shadow as floor 4.  He hates the way he gets spell levels compared to other mages.  Granted, that was only a few people as it was late.

[Magic Fanatic]

Edit: Yeah, Gale is apparently a much weaker spell than Quick; according to the stat topic it apparently only really makes your speed effectively 114% of what it was before.  Speed Ruin is 3 speed to a 10 average, so it's more of an effect, plus the FFT team is now all Orlandu speed in addition to that.

Actually, 114% is more the recharge rate after casting it.  The whole group gets 36%/42% EXTRA speed, based on what type of rings you see as legal...  So, a use of Gale is just about fast enough to offset the Speed Ruin.

[Yakumo]

Is that what he means by that?  Well, that's possible, it's not very well worded.  So, if they offset, then you've got basically your team unboosted against MBarrier.  Hmm.  I wish I had speed numbers for this point in the games, that would help a lot here.

Gale: Boosts Speed by 36% <42%>, 67% Recharge Speed?* (I believe this is technically 114% <130%> considering the speed boost), 12 MP
*I’m still testing this recharge time, but it definitely slows her down unless I have some weird item on her.

It really doesn't say here what he means by that 'technically 114%' blurb, I thought that he meant that the functional boost, not the numeric one, was that amount.  Anyone sure offhand?

[Clear Tranquil]

Lucia's Gale and Rage are also boosted by 50% under Moon and Ocean. It also boosts everything else by 50%. Normally that only refers to everything of all allies except Lucia but since this floor is full MT yeah.

[Magic Fanatic]

I'm actually sure he meant the recharge rate for casting the spell, in effect.  Casting Gale DOES slow down the caster some in terms of recharge, but with the speed buff and the caster's natural speed being uneffected, it's...  Generally a plus anyway.  Just take it as Gale giving the caster some negative CTB gauge, but Gale increasing the caster's natural speed to the point where it's generally a non-issue or (even better) an advantage for the character in question anyway.

[dude789]

Mia and Magic fail. Lady Ashe passes.

[Yakumo]

CT, that's fine and all, but if she's casting Gale first round she can't use the oils too.  It's one or the other. <_<

[Magic Fanatic]

It's also noted that the Ruin skills CAN miss if a target's MDEF is high enough, which my whole team excels at.  Zalbag only has 3 shots of his Ruin skills, Alma, AT BEST, has five shots of MBarrier.

[Bardiche]

Uh, which one of the last three does Ultima? To me, Ramza gets Ultima after mid-game, Alma is uh, NOT Final Alma and Zalbag doesn't even get Ultima the entire game.

[Excal]

The folks you face get their final game forms, while the ones you have progress through the game.  So, Alma could be final Alma is you generally allow that (I do) and Ramza would have Ultima, though he's better off screaming like a good little Super Sayin.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

It's also noted that the Ruin skills CAN miss if a target's MDEF is high enough, which my whole team excels at.  Zalbag only has 3 shots of his Ruin skills, Alma, AT BEST, has five shots of MBarrier.

lol wa2/sh mdef (WA2 for failing and Lilka not being a MDef dynamo anymore with Tim in the party and SH for having a minuscule spread that ultimately matters little). Riou's isn't quite good enough to stop Ruin from being turn one, either, and Mint -doesn't even have MDef-. So, uh, yay, TIR~ gets to tank one Ruin and change absolutely nothing at all for the fight I personally doubt you even get to! This is the way.

[hinode]

The Ruins are 120% accuracy base, overkill against average.   Knocking them down below the 2/3 threshold for turn one requires... pretty obscene magic defense.  179% range or so?

[Bardiche]

... Oh. In that case, I have to change my Magic vote to a fail, because I had taken Alma and Ramza at their not-end-game versions.

And Alma at end-game is a little terrible lot better than Alma at pre-mid-game.

[Clear Tranquil]

Yak - Well according to Magic Lucia doesn't have to use Gale right away. In game SHC you don't use the auto crits oil blend on Yuri/Kurando/Joachim (or Blanca) until any offensive/defensive buffs you also want have been set in place first - so Lucia would use the +50% effect blend then say Joachim would use the enhanced version of Arc Rage/Shield/Barrier/whatever then Yuri would use an enhanced For Everyone or Energy Charge, once the turn order came around to Lucia again *then* she'd use the auto critical blend and the team would launch an all out assault on the next round/as their turns came up. Admittedly I don't really know the rest of Magic's team but from what I do know I personally would see the 50% effect thing working on things like Haste, the damage of his offensive characters, Tir's ID% rate, Mint's healing, etc.

Edit: Looking at the ToP stat topic and yeah I'd also see the effects of Deep Mist/Delay/Acid Rain/Barrier/Valkyrie etc increased by 50%. No idea if she even has Barrier or Valkyrie by this point though. Buffs in SHC also stack so I would see these stacking with Lucia's Rages/Gales.

Stats in SHC are noticable enough in my opinion, especially with buffs up - Gep's physical defense/HP woes are definitely more noticable than the other mages (Ana/Lucia)

Anyway Magic you didn't screw up like anything, please don't take it personally, it's just the dungeon >.> I know how you feel because I felt the same way when Yuri/Lucia didn't get the respect I felt they should when they were on floor 3 but so it goes.  Not everyone is going to have the same level of respect for a character, especially for a game they don't know. Chin up! =)

[superaielman]

Magic fails horribly, Lady Ashe passes, abstain on Mia till I have more time to look.

[Magic Fanatic]

Anyway Magic you didn't screw up like anything, please don't take it personally, it's just the dungeon >.> I know how you feel because I felt the same way when Yuri/Lucia didn't get the respect I felt they should when they were on floor 3 but so it goes.  Not everyone is going to have the same level of respect for a character, especially for a game they don't know. Chin up! =)

Magic fails horribly, Lady Ashe passes, abstain on Mia till I have more time to look.

It's things like this that make me go emo overload, CT.  That, and all I know are extremes.

EDIT:

The Ruins are 120% accuracy base, overkill against average.   Knocking them down below the 2/3 threshold for turn one requires... pretty obscene magic defense.  179% range or so?

Yeah, what happens when Lilka makes her first turn casting a Protect (LOL WA2 defense buffs *PAUNCH*) instead, eh?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Then, she wastes her turn, since the boost is a paltry 1/8 of the target's base. That's going to help a ton.

EDIT: NOT TO MENTION that doing that instead of Quick as your first action? Gets you hilariously badly lapped due to Ruin's crippling speed bust+MBarrier stacking up like an atomic bomb ready to drop on your head and blow a country up. And Zalbag+Ramza+Alma Ultima = your entire team is effectively deader than disco dead, and that x2? Deader than foxtrot dead. 

[superaielman]

Because.. y ou do fail pretty horribly? Your team is based around two PC's who have lategame payoffs (Tir, Riou) and Lucia gets nothing from this floor as it is.



Team Magic Fanatic| Tir, Riou, Lilka, Lucia, Mint
[Floor 3b]
*All ST is MT
Team Magic vs. Eirika
Team Magic vs. FFT Time Mage, FFT Wizard, FFT Priest and FFT Monk- Hi, problem A. - Tir/Riou go physical? Say hello to counter or Hamedo. Go magic? Well, Priest will survive that for sure and can heal the damage away.  Even with buffs, a Wizard turn leads to some very bad things and your revival's limited.
Team Magic vs. Hellion and Luc- Say hello to problem B. Luc's ID is fast and while it's not great, it's 100% MT here.  Odds are you're going to lose two people (Topic says it's 70% at least), and that puts a crimp on offense in a bad way.
Team Magic vs. Lilka, Yulie and Emma
Team Magic vs. Alma, Ramza and Zalbag- Mbarrier+Ruins+Scream is bad times here. You need some blitzing power to down Ramza (Which your team doesn't have), and you need to be in good shape, which is also unlikely. You chose a very backloaded team- seriously, Tir/Riou are below average damage dealers, Lilka's never good on damage, and neither is Lucia, and Mint is Mint. What did you expect from a floor that rewards good ST attacks and makes having redundant healing not all that notable?

Edit: Oh hey this floor is also anti ID across the board, and you clearly were expecting to skate by on deadly fingertips. Bzzt.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I have a question since it's kind of an issue this week.

For bosses, I thought they were supposed to be representative of the forms they would have access to at the time.

For example, if you were to run into BoF4 Kahn on floor 2, it'd be his first form, but if you were to run into him on floor 4/5, it'd be his Sailor Kahn form.

For temps like Alma, I would have thought it worked the same way. At this early floor, I would have assumed she's using her 'fresh out of the cloister' temp form as opposed to her 'Altima-powered' temp form.

Personally, I don't think I'd see her as having Ultima or Ribbon on this floor as a result.

But my question is more for acedemic purposes than practical ones. Just how are we taking bosses in the Dungeon? I thought after the revamp, bosses weren't just 'scaled endgame forms' anymore? I thought this applied to temps and PCs, too? Or is it some kind of 'your own interp' thing?

-Djinn