Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 36

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Bosses are taken at whatever form you allow unless specified otherwise - i.e. Albert Simon can be either Amon or Messiah, but Lete River Ultros is specifically Ultros's Lete River form, not his Opera House form. Enemy PCs are -always- taken at their endgame forms, only scaled relatively - for an example, no Frog overkilling earlygame Virginia for you.

[Magic Fanatic]

...Y'know what?  Fine.  I lose horribly 'cause Eirika overkills my my whole party before anyone else even gets a turn.

Better argument for you, Super?

I should've known that facing FFT respect in the dungeon would be about the same as bashing yourself in the face with a cement wall.

EDIT:  FE AND FFT, actually.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Now, now, don't go blaming other things for your own poor choices. You should've realized from a glance at the floors that ID spam hype wouldn't work on the MT floor 3 by connecting the FFT = equipment cheese dots. A poor floor choice is a recipe for early death in the dungeon. It just happens. Doesn't help that your team was a bit poorly designed, either (as most of the teams that fail early are), but you should be aware of the consequences of making poor teams in a dungeon. It's not personal, and it's not really a big deal. You might want to calm down a little.

[Magic Fanatic]

Yeah, uh...  Snow?  Tell this to someone that had probably actually gotten far in FFT.

As for me?  I have two settings: (WA2) Argetlahm's power source or Xorn.  There is no room for anything but the extremes.

[SnowFire]

In defense of Magic Fanatic here.  Personally I find that one of the most aggravating things about the DL discussion topics in general, and the Dungeon as well, is knowing who has what status immunity.  It's not unreasonable for people to remember that Tidus has a choice between the Sonic Steel, the Brotherhood, and the Caladbolg, but which random statuses he randomly blocks?  That's tough, and not something you'll necessarily remember from in-game play.  Hell, I've been following the DL for awhile now, and I'm still not that great on which casts block what. 

And MF's team looks pretty strong to me.  When his ID spam doesn't work, he can fall back on turtling with Lilka's stat buffs and zillions of healing from Riou/Mint.  It's just that he ran into the resist-ID floor, and that's the size of it.  Forgetting FFT can block ID is an entirely reasonable mistake (it's kind of a random extra on the Angel Rings, best known for the Reraise), and whether FEers can evade magic from games with no magic evasion is an open question.
  More importantly, the Tir/Riou combination is cool, so even if you think the team is weak people should submit cool teams anyway, and if they lose that's fine.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Yeah, uh...  Snow?  Tell this to someone that had probably actually gotten far in FFT.

As for me?  I have two settings: (WA2) Argetlahm's power source or Xorn.  There is no room for anything but the extremes.

Then, that's your own problem. If you're going to throw a hissy fit like a five-year-old who didn't get a pony for her birthday, feel free. Just don't expect anyone to give you any heed, considering how downright dismissive, reactive and immature you are being. Losing isn't very fun, we know. I've lost multiple teams before to the dungeon. But you don't see me raging like it was the end of the world for it. Be my guest to wail and weep - just don't be surprised when any of us to give a flying damn. This is a social environment, not the front stage for your childish tantrums.

[Magic Fanatic]

I know, I know.  I'm just annoyed that I put in so much excitement for this, and then I messed up in my own plans.  Sorry 'bout that.

I think it was just getting to me with how long I was waiting for my first time in, well...  Ever.  Still, not a good excuse.  Sorry about my behavior.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Bosses are taken at whatever form you allow unless specified otherwise - i.e. Albert Simon can be either Amon or Messiah, but Lete River Ultros is specifically Ultros's Lete River form, not his Opera House form. Enemy PCs are -always- taken at their endgame forms, only scaled relatively - for an example, no Frog overkilling earlygame Virginia for you.

And temps?

[Nephrite]

Temps are an interesting bag of coins. It depends a lot on the person doing the interpreting. There is a specific floor that asks to scale temps against endgame instead of when they're in the party.

There are some that don't give Alma her final form, and those people are welcome to vote that way, just... it's not how everyone feels.

[Magic Fanatic]

Look, if there's nothing else, I have one more argument I'd like to push forward before my team is horribly overkilled.

FFT stat buffs have a duration that lasts until the end of battle.  I'll concede this.
There is nothing in-game that dispels FFT stat-up/downs.  I'll concede this.

HOWEVER...

Even by FFT's Dispel's standards, it is VERY specific on what it does and does not effect.
Lilka's Dispel, in WA2, hits stat buffs.  How is this relevant?

Lilka has a version of Dispel that hits stat buffs.

Here's an interpretation:  FFT stat buffs just directly affect a stat and don't give any notification that the buff was made.  HOWEVER, Lilka's Dispel (by definition of the attacker's version of a skill), can hit the stat buffs that FFT characters provide, as they are invisible, cumulative effects to a stat.


This is a version that occured to me while I was working.  Then I saw super tact and lost it for whatever reason.

[superaielman]

In defense of Magic Fanatic here.  Personally I find that one of the most aggravating things about the DL discussion topics in general, and the Dungeon as well, is knowing who has what status immunity.  It's not unreasonable for people to remember that Tidus has a choice between the Sonic Steel, the Brotherhood, and the Caladbolg, but which random statuses he randomly blocks?  That's tough, and not something you'll necessarily remember from in-game play.  Hell, I've been following the DL for awhile now, and I'm still not that great on which casts block what. 

And MF's team looks pretty strong to me.  When his ID spam doesn't work, he can fall back on turtling with Lilka's stat buffs and zillions of healing from Riou/Mint.  It's just that he ran into the resist-ID floor, and that's the size of it.  Forgetting FFT can block ID is an entirely reasonable mistake (it's kind of a random extra on the Angel Rings, best known for the Reraise), and whether FEers can evade magic from games with no magic evasion is an open question.
  More importantly, the Tir/Riou combination is cool, so even if you think the team is weak people should submit cool teams anyway, and if they lose that's fine.

While I'm completely sympathetic with the status stuff in the DL, the duengon is so research heavy in general that you really should check on who can block what for status before you take on a floor.  Magic really, really picked a bad floor split for him and he's rightly getting slapped around here. I'm not sure my first team would have taken out the floor, so yeah.

Here's an interpretation:  FFT stat buffs just directly affect a stat and don't give any notification that the buff was made.  HOWEVER, Lilka's Dispel (by definition of the attacker's version of a skill), can hit the stat buffs that FFT characters provide, as they are invisible, cumulative effects to a stat.

Game tells/shows you the buff was made.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Even by FFT's Dispel's standards, it is VERY specific on what it does and does not effect.
Lilka's Dispel, in WA2, hits stat buffs.  How is this relevant?

Lilka has a version of Dispel that hits stat buffs.

Here's an interpretation:  FFT stat buffs just directly affect a stat and don't give any notification that the buff was made.  HOWEVER, Lilka's Dispel (by definition of the attacker's version of a skill), can hit the stat buffs that FFT characters provide, as they are invisible, cumulative effects to a stat.

Doesn't solve the issue that the sum of their offense kills everybody who can keep your party alive and they go all at roughly the same time. Lilka isn't living to cast Dispel in that case, and Mint doesn't get revival until three floors away from where you are. And that's not even touching the fact that WA2 dispel sucks, misses relevant things that should be dispellable and sometimes -misses- itself. Asking a crappy in-game dispel to undo a stat bust that is badass enough to mock dispel in its own game is a lot of suspension of disbelief.

And, really, all that is well and good, but how do you handle the FFT mages/monk again? Nothing is stopping them from either 2HKOing or OHKOing your ass (Wizard -alone- WILL OHKO the whole party sans Tir/Riou, and, without revivers, Tir/Riou are -not- soloing the floor with the lack of resources and offense. Don't even bother), and your own party has... nothing to stop that from happening. The offense fails too hard and ID is out of the question. The fact they immune both ID and silence doesn't help, and they even do so while entirely walling Riou's magic. Even assuming you make it that far to Alma/Zalbag/Ramza is a stroke of impressive generosity.

[Magic Fanatic]

And, really, all that is well and good, but how do you handle the FFT mages/monk again? Nothing is stopping them from either 2HKOing or OHKOing your ass (Wizard -alone- WILL OHKO the whole party sans Tir/Riou, and, without revivers, Tir/Riou are -not- soloing the floor with the lack of resources and offense. Don't even bother), and your own party has... nothing to stop that from happening. The offense fails too hard and ID is out of the question. The fact they immune both ID and silence doesn't help, and they even do so while entirely walling Riou's magic. Even assuming you make it that far to Alma/Zalbag/Ramza is a stroke of impressive generosity.

FFT mages?  Big damage is SLOW damage.  Lilka casts Quick, Riou and Tir beat up on a random mage (but the same one), and the Wizard is at least broadcasting whether he's doing status or damage, so Lucia uses the proper oil to Counter.  Pow Hammer is short, but might give Lilka enough time for a doubleturn?

If so, she casts Quick again, Tir and Riou benefit from even MORE speed, and finish off the mage they started.  Damage comes in, Lucia casts Gale, Mint heals.  Mages are getting lapped a LOT then.

If not?  Mint would instead cast Sharpness.  Damage comes in, Lilka heals (or casts Dispel in case of Haste).  Tir and Riou still finish off the mage they started on.  Lucia casts Gale (or uses another oil).  Mint heals.  Rinse and repeat until only the Monk is left, where my team can back up for a full heal before the next match.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

[FFT mages?  Big damage is SLOW damage.  Lilka casts Quick, Riou and Tir beat up on a random mage (but the same one), and the Wizard is at least broadcasting whether he's doing status or damage, so Lucia uses the proper oil to Counter.  Pow Hammer is short, but might give Lilka enough time for a doubleturn?

Bzzzt. They're above average speed and only Wizard's big damage charge times are huge (and it's only the one issue that you can solve). Tir and Riou can't pick, it's all MT - one of them's getting Hamedo'd and that attack is negated. Time Mage can also counter Quick by tossing Slow at your party and now it's back to square one. Pikohan can miss, has absolutely no duration and is absolutely ineffectual. Lucia herself is -also- slower than the mages, which makes the Oil strategy ineffectual. Not to mention Mint -doesn't have Sharpness by now-, and if you're holding the FFT mages to casting slowness, you should hold Mint to that as well. No making your cake and having it.

[Magic Fanatic]

Let's see, this was taking into account that you see Double Leader as completely and totally illegal...  That was you, right?

OK then, if you see Mint as slower than the FFT mages, she casts Nurse instead, and Quick'd Lucia would be faster than the mages (since she's barely below average speed before, and getting 1.5 times that after Quick?  Yeowza. Hell, by standards, she probably even beats out Tir and Riou for speed by series averages, in which case she does the Auto-Crit oil and make Tir and Riou auto-crit things, since Suikoden crits can't be countered).

EDIT:  Lost my train of thought to that split-path.  Anywho, yeah.  Mint's on healing, Wizard has to deal with awesome MDEF for status working (which I kinda remember wasn't very high to begin with), and Lilka Quicks again.  Crit oil, Tir and Riou, blah blah blah.  Hell, since FFT status doesn't last after the battle, Lucia uses Crit oil off the bat.  Either Tir or Riou doesn't get hit by status (thanks to awesome MDEF), and they attack.  If Lilka wasn't hit as well (really bad status (in terms of incapacitating) has, what...  50% chance AT BEST of hitting average MDEF?  At least, from my experience...)  Then she just Restores the status away (what?  L2 magic can be acquired as soon as you get the Teleport Orb at T'Bok Village, and Restore is cheap!)

It just goes down from there.

[Excal]

Magic, I'm curious as to why you'd even want Double Leader on this floor besides possibly getting around Hamedo?

Also, barely above average is <<< Tir and Riou who are fairly quick by Suikoden standards.  And some FFT Status have fairly good hit rates.  For example, you are so very, very glad that there is no Oracle in that fight, as Silence would screw you beyond belief.  And, the Time Mage does have Quick, which nets you a Monk Physical, Holy, and...  let's say Elemental 3 all at once, which leaves you in very bad shape, if not outright killing you.  And all three of those are fast.

[Magic Fanatic]

Magic, I'm curious as to why you'd even want Double Leader on this floor besides possibly getting around Hamedo?

That's...  Pretty much the entire point, if one takes the viewpoint that it's an action started by Riou that they do just by Tir not getting a turn.

Also, OK.  Lucia's stuck using the Medium increase to S-DEF oil, since I'm certain that status also check MDEF for accuracy, and having this much MORE would basically make things livable.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Teleport Orb is also not floor 3. At this point, I really don't see why even bother, you're clearly grasping on tinfoil straws to even find a justification. I don't see Double Team as legal: it doesn't matter. All ST is MT, this is valid for your team and for the enemies. As I said, no making your cake and having it. Seems like that aspect of this floor consistently has failed to even enter your mind. Their basic physicals are MT. Wizard's spells are MT. Priest's spells are MT. -Everything- is MT, be it for your benefit, be it for your doom. Also keep in mind I didn't even -touch- status outside of Slow, which is fast and accurate, and Haste from TM can also keep them in the same general tide. I guess you've tried your piece. It didn't impress. Can't say I'm surprised.

[Magic Fanatic]

OK, fine, I can't win.  Even with Quick and S-DEF increases, they can one-round (or pretty close) my characters.  I can't tank until they run out, since they effectively have infinite resources.  They're immune to the only status that would be able to put a dent in them.

Also, don't take me for an idiot.  I know everything MT, you don't have to force it down my throat.  I just goofed earlier is all.  It's not like you'd even try for an argument for this team, since it's not yours.  Hell, why do I even bother convincing you?  You've made your decision that I failed LONG ago.

My only chance on that match would be if Wizard started casting Frog, and Lucia threw out a status-immune oil in the middle of that.  Or the S-Def after he's still charging elemental damage...  But no.  I CAN'T EVEN DO ANY DAMAGE.  Any damage I actually manage to do gets healed away by the MONK of all people, so the other three can just keep pounding me with spells.  I give up trying to convince anyone.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Bosses are taken at whatever form you allow unless specified otherwise - i.e. Albert Simon can be either Amon or Messiah, but Lete River Ultros is specifically Ultros's Lete River form, not his Opera House form. Enemy PCs are -always- taken at their endgame forms, only scaled relatively - for an example, no Frog overkilling earlygame Virginia for you.

Actually, you say this, but for some reason I'm thinking that Neph had said something about changing the rules for this a bit one way or the other. I don't recall the specifics, but I'm almost certain that a policy change happened somewhere along the line and since I don't remember all of it personally, I was putting out a question for anyone who might have better recollection of what I'm referring to.

And I'm not sure Neph ever put any restrictions on enemy temps. So I guess I'm still looking for an answer on this subject, too.

...I really don't want to have to hunt through old posts... >.>;;

-Djinn

[Clear Tranquil]

Djinn - Earliest forms for the earlier floors opponent wise both boss and temps for me. If there isn't a earlier form then the final forms get scaled down to be more similar to what teams might be facing in their own games at the relevant stage. Pure raw unadultered final forms on Floor 3 yeah no.

Thus Magic's team doesn't get horrendously overkilled to me before he can set up his turtling game *shrugs*

I agree with SnowFire that Magic's team is full of resources, unlimited thanks to Lucia's MP restoration and unless the opponents can outright kill/OHKO everyone of Magic's supporters before they can say Boo I don't see them as being unable to set up and draw on those resources. There are tons of tricks that can be used to his advantage and unless his reviver is being flat out killed I see no reason why awesme supports like Mint and Lucia would be unable to keep the reviver around/all three of them being able to keep the the damage dealers going.

I just don't see the majority of Magic's Team being outright killed but yeah I can see why people allowing the final forms might see that. I can also see why those who allow opponent twinking cheese would see Magic's team falling apart due to his ID game not working for them.

I just missed the part where people started taking opponent ID protection into account >_____> Maybe I wasn't paying attention but I don't remember serious consideration of that before. I have a niggling compulsion to read through old posts to see how many teams have passed due to ID cheese without ID protection being taken into consideration    I know I am probably very guilty of such. Sorry if that sounds offensive or anything just ... *blinks*  I'm personally not surprised that Magic thought/don't blame him for thinking his team would have an easy time of it due to ID cheese since it's happened so often before.

Amazing Grace - I was blind but now I seeeee~

Edit: Super really isn't being personal when he says something fails horribly. That's just a .. uhhh superism or something. If you find that harsh or don't like it then like it then just kick him. He tells people they fail miserably all the time, in fact I wouldn't doubt if he's told Snow he fails miserably a lot too ;p Then everybody just mocks super for being super. It's all in good fun~ Kick Snow too if you want! *flees from Snow's evil harsh unforgiving dungeon master debate self! *

-or-

*SMITES DEBATE! SNOW WITH GREAT JUSTICE!*

Honestly though Magic I don't think anyone started being really personal with you until you took it personal/started being personal yourself. Before that Snow was just being well Snow >.> Debate! Snow. If you are going to have some sort of ongoing personal problem with his debating style then might I suggest PMs? <(^^)> I don't really think it's a good idea for you guys to keep up a pissing contest here >.> Both of you are good guys really so yeah!

Of course you don't have to listen to me but I hope this is all sorted out by the time I return next week <.<

[hinode]

Originally all opposing PCs *were* scaled according to the timeframe in the dungeon.  Neph ultimately changed this because it was decided that having to research what all the opponents were like at a given time in addition to what all the team members were like was too much work, and changed the opponent side to endgame stats to simplify things.

[Nephrite]

Bosses are taken at whatever form you allow unless specified otherwise - i.e. Albert Simon can be either Amon or Messiah, but Lete River Ultros is specifically Ultros's Lete River form, not his Opera House form. Enemy PCs are -always- taken at their endgame forms, only scaled relatively - for an example, no Frog overkilling earlygame Virginia for you.

Actually, you say this, but for some reason I'm thinking that Neph had said something about changing the rules for this a bit one way or the other. I don't recall the specifics, but I'm almost certain that a policy change happened somewhere along the line and since I don't remember all of it personally, I was putting out a question for anyone who might have better recollection of what I'm referring to.

And I'm not sure Neph ever put any restrictions on enemy temps. So I guess I'm still looking for an answer on this subject, too.

...I really don't want to have to hunt through old posts... >.>;;

-Djinn

Like I said, Temps are interesting. It's mostly how you choose to scale them... I can't really regulate that. It's one of the reasons I try to avoid using them. I'd say, in general, scale temps like however you do so in the Dueling League itself.

Hinode is also correct. There are one or two people who scale things based on the floors they're on and that's fine.

Also: Keep things friendly from now on or else I will unleash METAL WOLF CHAOS.

[Magic Fanatic]

...OK, fine.  Sorry, but even I don't know why I took it personal; all I can apologize for is the fact that I did.

Besides the point, I've been completely forgetting an argument.

If I can manage to get Lilka to survive through incoming damage, then I've basically won - since Lilka's FP gains also have a basis in how much damage she takes, I'm going to try hyping Reflect.  I'm not sure she's dying that quickly (if you see Tim as this early, then you also have to see his bad durability this early, effectively giving Lilka a boost).

Still, pick your situation.  Lilka attacks.  She doesn't trigger Hamedo on a 50% chance, I'm thinking maybe?  She gets 12 FP.  Riou heals up if there was a counter (Lilka still gets a respectable amount of FP), just defends if there wasn't.  Hell, Tir and Riou are evasive enough to punish the opposing team for their Hamedo as well.  Lucia uses the S-DEF oil.  Mint heals after the onslaught.

Humor me here - what happens in this scenario?  Don't just say, "You get overkilled all the same," I want to see a play-by-play.

Also, Snow?  How is the Teleport Orb not floor 3, unless you're shoving half of Disk 1 on floor 4?  T'Bok Village is just 2 villages after Basker (the one between being Sielje),  with Tim's Trial arena, an extension to Mount Chug-Chug, that bridge that you have to hurry-but-not-really, and a rehash of Brad's intro.

[SnowFire]

Re: the FFT Mages fight: If Mint is slower than the CT of the spells (which I doubt - as was discussed two dungeons ago, the spells go off at around 70-80% average speed), then mages that are "too fast" all wait first and take their next turns early.  Same effect.

Also I don't think Tir1 shouldn't be punished with not having Double Leader attack.  This is more important than ever thanks to Black Shadow apparently being illegal, so yeah.  The question is if DLA + Lilka cast + (Lucia physical?!) is enough to wipe out Priest and Time Mage, who incinerate the team otherwise.  It's close, but I'd be willing to kneejerk in your favor.  If you're assuming that the FFT mages live through your attack, no, there's no way you're going to survive especially with a Monk hit following the Holy/Meteor; Lucia's buff will not be enough.  Once Lilka drops, it's over thanks to no revival, and she's not an HP goddess.  So yeah, I really think that Double Leader attack needs hyping here.  If Tir & Riou go physical, then even if you allow the attack to hit everyone else if Monk Hamedo's it, you still have to see Tir+Riou+Lucia+Lilka spell wiping out *all* the mages sinec the Monk may have beaten your team up.