Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 36

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

...OK, fine.  Sorry, but even I don't know why I took it personal; all I can apologize for is the fact that I did.

Besides the point, I've been completely forgetting an argument.

If I can manage to get Lilka to survive through incoming damage, then I've basically won - since Lilka's FP gains also have a basis in how much damage she takes, I'm going to try hyping Reflect.  I'm not sure she's dying that quickly (if you see Tim as this early, then you also have to see his bad durability this early, effectively giving Lilka a boost).

Lilka's durability is still notably below average, the dragging down that Tim causes is compensated by Ashley and Brad's good to excellent HP - and Wizard alone OHKOs average, or borderline does. I.e. she's not living. Not to mention FP in WA2 does nothing to durability - that's WA3. And keep in mind that Reflect is 50 FP (assuming you even get a L2 Crest spell, which is still a laughable idea this early) and Lilka will only be able to cast it turn 2 at the earliest. By then, she's already long dead. She can't act twice in a single turn, which is the only situation where this makes sense. You see, the sum of all the enemies you're facing combined can deal about 2.5x PC HP in damage. Nobody in your party has even close to that kind of durability. And Double Leader attack is about the same in damage as Tir+Riou physicals, is my kneejerk? Thus, it's... not really doing anything special, if you even consider it legal.

Still, pick your situation.  Lilka attacks.  She doesn't trigger Hamedo on a 50% chance, I'm thinking maybe?  She gets 12 FP.  Riou heals up if there was a counter (Lilka still gets a respectable amount of FP), just defends if there wasn't.  Hell, Tir and Riou are evasive enough to punish the opposing team for their Hamedo as well.  Lucia uses the S-DEF oil.  Mint heals after the onslaught.

Why would Riou heal if your party is at full HP? Also, Hamedo is a 70% chance, and cancels -your- attack and Monk doesn't have to take a turn to use it. It's a reaction ability, a counter - thus, going physical = you're really asking for trouble. Let alone a -Lilka- physical, which deals horrible damage. Also, you don't really understand: 2.5x PC HP damage. Lucia's S. Def Oil isn't making your entire party survive that level of onslaught, and Monk's damage is okayish and physical to boot. Monk also isn't frail. And Riou/Tir aren't going to punish Monk: the odds of counters in S1/2 are pathetic, since they are odds that -only kick in after evade-, and Riou/Tir are okay at dodging, but not evasion gods. So. And then, Hamedo is just an unnecessary nail in the coffin. For you to win that fight, you need to kill all the enemies before they act. You really, really can't. Lilka doing anything other than casting Quick only makes the murder spree easier for them, since they don't have to counter Quick with Haste/Slow, they can just whistle and murder you. And, since Priest goes before Lucia and Mint, she can just heal the entire party with Cure 2 and now you're truly fucked, since TM+Wizard+Monk will deal nearly 2x PC HP on your party without blinking, and you can't survive that, S. Def Oil or no Oil. SH stat boosts are solid, but not enough to drive off -that- level of damage.

Also, Snow?  How is the Teleport Orb not floor 3, unless you're shoving half of Disk 1 on floor 4?

That's past mid-disc 1, and somewhere in the midgame. Floor 3 is still early game to me, thus Teleport Orb is not floor 3. I also believe it's not that simple, you can't access L2 spells just by having the Teleport Orb. Thus, all the more reason to not give it to her that early.

[Magic Fanatic]

That's past mid-disc 1, and somewhere in the midgame. Floor 3 is still early game to me, thus Teleport Orb is not floor 3. I also believe it's not that simple, you can't access L2 spells just by having the Teleport Orb. Thus, all the more reason to not give it to her that early.

You're right.  It's a side quest you can do as soon as you GET the Teleport Orb that's...  Easier done than said to do in-game.

Also, you seem to be a fan for giving FFT really fast casting times, while I don't see it that way.  Reason?

Mint, due to the nature of her battle system, can at least start casting as soon as the battle begins.  FFT, however, forces their mages to wait their turn before they can even start casting...  So this could very well put Mint ahead of a lot of the castings...  And say hi to Mint Haste before FFT mages even get a spell (maybe)!  Also, Mint Dispel would hit the Time Mage's Slow (and possibly Zalbag's Speed Ruin, since one FAQ also says it gets stat downs, as the attacker's version of a skill), just so you know...

Also, for FP?  I didn't say it was for anything defensive, I just meant that she needed FP to get some places in her skill set.  Hell, I could probably have her defend for double FP gains while Tir baits a Hamedo and Riou uses an L3 healing if it hits (or just defending himself if the attack does go through).  Lucia uses an S-DEF oil (or anti-status as needed) to keep Lilka alive to turn 2, and Mint uses Haste (or Deep Mist, if you see that as affecting the spell accuracy as well).

Tir and Riou ARE fairly evasive, and I meant the evade -> counter from the Hamedo itself, really.  Hell, even in the midgame, I rarely ever saw Riou hit with a normal enemy physical...  Wait.  Does Hamedo, in-game, counter physical MT stuff if they're in range, or does it get around that?  If so, then this whole floor is counter-productive to Monk, since Hamedo never gets the proper activating trigger.

...Hell, if I wanted to, I could even argue that the FFT team is hitting themselves with each attack, even though that's an unpopular view.  You CAN hit nearby allies with a spell even if you're not targeting them (be it friendly or painful), so...  They're killing themselves while killing me in that view.

Teleport Orb is also not floor 3. At this point, I really don't see why even bother, you're clearly grasping on tinfoil straws to even find a justification. I don't see Double Team as legal: it doesn't matter. All ST is MT, this is valid for your team and for the enemies. As I said, no making your cake and having it. Seems like that aspect of this floor consistently has failed to even enter your mind. Their basic physicals are MT. Wizard's spells are MT. Priest's spells are MT. -Everything- is MT, be it for your benefit, be it for your doom. Also keep in mind I didn't even -touch- status outside of Slow, which is fast and accurate, and Haste from TM can also keep them in the same general tide. I guess you've tried your piece. It didn't impress. Can't say I'm surprised.

There's the fact that at least half of what was named can hit both enemies and allies at the same time in FFT.

If something can only target one party at a time, it's only MT to that party, but if it can hit both parties at the same time, then it hits everyone on the floor, methinks...  (EDIT out an unnecessary comment).  If you allow the FFT Mages' spells to only hit my party, that's not true MT, that's just specialized targeting/showing favoritism to FFT/the dungeon by adding in a restriction to the MT that, by all means, is completely illegal.

[DjinnAndTonic]

There's the fact that at least half of what was named can hit both enemies and allies at the same time in FFT.

If something can only target one party at a time, it's only MT to that party, but if it can hit both parties at the same time, then it hits everyone on the floor, methinks...  (EDIT out an unnecessary comment).  If you allow the FFT Mages' spells to only hit my party, that's not true MT, that's just specialized targeting/showing favoritism to FFT/the dungeon by adding in a restriction to the MT that, by all means, is completely illegal.

Oh. Actually, this is a pretty interesting point. One that I wished I had thought of during previous matches on this floor. It does see perfectly logical to allow spells that -can- hit both parties simultaneously to be -forced- to hit both parties simultaneously on the ST/GT=full MT floor. This would apply to some S3 GT magic as well, I would think?

Neph, what's your call on something like this? Is there an official rule here or is it up to voter interpretation?

-Djinn

[superaielman]

You're right.  It's a side quest you can do as soon as you GET the Teleport Orb that's...  Easier done than said to do in-game.

Also, you seem to be a fan for giving FFT really fast casting times, while I don't see it that way.  Reason?

Mint, due to the nature of her battle system, can at least start casting as soon as the battle begins.  FFT, however, forces their mages to wait their turn before they can even start casting...  So this could very well put Mint ahead of a lot of the castings...  And say hi to Mint Haste before FFT mages even get a spell (maybe)!  Also, Mint Dispel would hit the Time Mage's Slow, just so you know...

By the nature of Mint's battle system she can be stunlocked into not casting a spell. Come on, this is not a good argument.  Tales mages do not get first strike with casting magic in the DL.

Also, for FP?  I didn't say it was for anything defensive, I just meant that she needed FP to get some places in her skill set.  Hell, I could probably have her defend for double FP gains while Tir baits a Hamedo and Riou uses an L3 healing if it hits (or just defending himself if the attack does go through).  Lucia uses an S-DEF oil (or anti-status as needed) to keep Lilka alive to turn 2, and Mint uses Haste (or Deep Mist, if you see that as affecting the spell accuracy as well).

ST->MT this floor. Tir can't bait anything. Deep mist is also: Blind, not effective (Angel rings). How are you winning the battle if everyone's playing defensively? The enemy team has way too much offense to do that. No matter what defensive spells you use you're going to be toast if you let a bunch of FFT mages have a free crack at your team.

Tir and Riou ARE fairly evasive, and I meant the evade -> counter from the Hamedo itself, really.  Hell, even in the midgame, I rarely ever saw Riou hit with a normal enemy physical...  Wait.  Does Hamedo, in-game, counter physical MT stuff if they're in range, or does it get around that?  If so, then this whole floor is counter-productive to Monk, since Hamedo never gets the proper activating trigger.

Riou and Tir are certainly above average evade (Which helps a little) but the problem isn't them- if the revivers die, they are toast. Everyone's been treating counters as MTed as well here,  see the Erikia fight.

...Hell, if I wanted to, I could even argue that the FFT team is hitting themselves with each attack, even though that's an unpopular view.  You CAN hit nearby allies with a spell even if you're not targeting them (be it friendly or painful), so...  They're killing themselves while killing me in that view.

You said it yourself, Snow.  EVERYTHING is MT on this floor.  If something can only target one party at a time, it's only MT to that party, but if it can hit both parties at the same time, then it hits everyone on the floor, methinks...  (EDIT out an unnecessary comment).  If you allow the FFT Mages' spells to only hit my party, that's not true MT, that's just specialized targeting/showing favoritism to FFT/the dungeon by adding in a restriction to the MT that, by all means, is completely illegal.

Um.. what? No. ST->MT means exactly what it says, not that it works like Merton like a field effect. Neph very specifically spells that out if it applies to a floor or fight.

To Djinn: Even ignoring that argument and allowing what magic's saying, he's still dead if he doesn't at least kill a few members of the FFT Fight before they can get going. Tir, Riou, and Lilka go before the FFT mages.  Tir and Riou need to break through Hamedo and at least kill Wizard.. and even if they do that, they still have to deal with time mage and the rest. Monk/Priest can also revive. Yeah. You pretty much need to down this fight with good fighters, with Magic doesn't have. As I said several posts back, it's a defensive team predicated on controlling fights with ID, and that does not work against FFT.

[superaielman]

Team Miasmacloud | Terra, VP2 Lenneth, FFT Chemist, PC Seifer
[Floor 5b]
Team Miasma vs. Lich Warren- Lich Warren is slow. You do not want to be slow against this team. May be a good idea to let Seifer get pummeled so he can have Fire Cross ready for the next fight.
Team Miasma vs. FFT Cloud and FFT:LW Argath- Cloud's threat is the nasty ST magic damage. Argath's lack of speed probably dooms the team to a very ugly beating- Ether can repair any MP damage, Cloud's very managable overall.  Weapon Break isn't turn 1 either so it's a waste of a turn.
Team Miasma vs. VP2 Brahms, VP2 Hrist and VP2 Lenneth- PC's win absolute speed tie breaks for me in the duengon. Lenneth+Seifer should smash EvilLenneth. Evil guys can't overcome the revival at that point. Revive up and prepare for the boss run.
Team Miasma vs. Lufia 3 Gades- Poison blocker for Terra. She sits and heals as Gades can't really do much more than pick off people normally.
Team Miasma vs. Narshe Kefka- Manageable due to the team coming more or less intact. NK has some nasty single target abilities, making him perfect for picking people off. Props to Neph for good floor design here.

This floor comes down to how you tiebreak Mia's Lenneth against the enemies. If the bad guys beat good lenneth to the punch.. Lenneth heals the team while one picks off Sefier and makes inroads. It gets bumpier at that point. Mmm.

[Magic Fanatic]

Um.. what? No. ST->MT means exactly what it says, not that it works like Merton like a field effect. Neph very specifically spells that out if it applies to a floor or fight.

Actually...

Theorem 1:  If a skill is used against or for a single member of a party, then it is applied to all members of that party.
Theorem 2:  Most FFT spells, by their nature, can affect both ally and enemy parties in a single casting.

Conclusion:  FFT spells, since they can target both sides of a conflict in a single casting, therefore target ALL members of both sides of a conflict in a single casting.  (This excludes spells that only target one panel in-game, and things that IMPOSSIBLE to hit allies/enemies with).

[SageAcrin]

There's the fact that at least half of what was named can hit both enemies and allies at the same time in FFT.

If something can only target one party at a time, it's only MT to that party, but if it can hit both parties at the same time, then it hits everyone on the floor, methinks...  (EDIT out an unnecessary comment).  If you allow the FFT Mages' spells to only hit my party, that's not true MT, that's just specialized targeting/showing favoritism to FFT/the dungeon by adding in a restriction to the MT that, by all means, is completely illegal.

Oh. Actually, this is a pretty interesting point. One that I wished I had thought of during previous matches on this floor. It does see perfectly logical to allow spells that -can- hit both parties simultaneously to be -forced- to hit both parties simultaneously on the ST/GT=full MT floor. This would apply to some S3 GT magic as well, I would think?

Neph, what's your call on something like this? Is there an official rule here or is it up to voter interpretation?

-Djinn

A: FFT Mages have ST magic as well as AoE. (I haven't mathed this out at all, but Priest's main offense is ST, Wizard's Flare is ST, and Time Mage...okay gets stuck with stuff like Quick, Stop and a few iffy spells like that, but Meteor was already arguable as full MT by people. Which leads to B.)

B: While there's an argument(and probably a Neph call is needed on this) for AoE spells not being *MT*, I don't see how they could possibly *hit allies* in this case. The distinction would be "Do AoE spells fall under the 'hit all enemies/allies original intention?"; Otherwise, they'd just fail to be MT, not hit all of both sides.

Of course, if there was a spell that hit *one* ally and *one* enemy every time, I suppose this would come up. Like a Drain spell say, except they hit both sides with different effects. <_<

Oh, and C:

Just because a spell *can* hit allies means nothing at all, ever.

You can shoot yourself with Fire spells in FF6, too. Terra is not nuking the entire field with her Fire spells. The fact that you can accidentally screw up and do it is only relevant if you 100% consistantly see the spell always doing it under any circumstances. Assuming careful planning, you will never nuke yourself with a FFT spell.

The call might be needed in the case of seeing FFT mages as consistantly hitting their own team, however, due to charge time issues, *if you have that interp*, since logically, if they hit one of their own people, the effect may hit their own team. Which is reasonable as an interp. It assumes poor AI, but I'm not sure how the dungeon feels about AI anymore; People used to assume poor AI for it all the time though. But just the ability to *hit* allies means nothing.

[DjinnAndTonic]

To Djinn: Even ignoring that argument and allowing what magic's saying, he's still dead if he doesn't at least kill a few members of the FFT Fight before they can get going. Tir, Riou, and Lilka go before the FFT mages.  Tir and Riou need to break through Hamedo and at least kill Wizard.. and even if they do that, they still have to deal with time mage and the rest. Monk/Priest can also revive. Yeah. You pretty much need to down this fight with good fighters, with Magic doesn't have. As I said several posts back, it's a defensive team predicated on controlling fights with ID, and that does not work against FFT.

It's not about whether Magic wins or loses here. To me, he wins because I'm not allowing the FFT generics Angel Rings here.

Neph did not state what the case of ST->MT did in situations where a skill could hit both parties -simultaneously-, such as with FFT spells and a few other games with GT attacks where allies can 'get in the way of a spell'. Calculators, especially, make me think that FFT spells should be considered as easily hitting allied units. And on this floor, if it hits -one- allied unit, then it hits the whole team.

Also, curious about the case of Hamedo. People seem to be taking it as 'if the Monk blocks it for himself, then the whole FFT team is safe'. Since it's a defensive property of the Monk, I would this as akin to saying "Well, the Time Mage has high RES, so the whole team is near-immune to magic!" The Monk would be safe from the physical, but the rest of the FFT team would be hit. Of course, the counter-attack part of the Hamedo would hit the whole opposing team.

-Djinn

[SageAcrin]

Hamedo prevents an attack from ever even occuring.

The enemy just gets punched first instead.

[superaielman]

Why would the ID blocker be illegal? They have more than one (Armor as well), I really don't see why you wouldn't allow it. And to Djinn: Basically Hamedo's like Mirror Stance if it triggers. 

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

...Hell, if I wanted to, I could even argue that the FFT team is hitting themselves with each attack, even though that's an unpopular view.  You CAN hit nearby allies with a spell even if you're not targeting them (be it friendly or painful), so...  They're killing themselves while killing me in that view.

Then, you can have a nice day talking to your hand. Getting a winning argument is really easy when you're making implausible shit up just for the sake of making it look better on your end. Neph was pretty clear: anything that hits one enemy or a group of enemies turns now hits all enemies. Anything that hits one ally or a group of ally hits all allies. No fancy accidental self-targetting that happens to benefit only you, that level of tinfoil straw grasping has gone beyond pathetic.

If you're going down such a trickly route, you might as well make numbers/skillsets up and say you win that way, because your argument now has gone down to essentially making up crap and doing it in a downright blatant way would be at least more sincere. And, honestly, it's just too sad to bother. I'd change my vote without much fuss if you could just present a -viable, plausible and reasonable way- for you to win that. The fact you have problems coming up even with -implausible ways- sums up how I feel about this. I'll stop arguing this, since I wasted enough of my time. And you probably should stop wasting yours as well.

[SageAcrin]

Sure, voting while I'm here.

Team Magic, since it gets all the deba-...

...

Wish owns Team Magic. Alma spams it healing 25% of her own life, Ramza and Zalbag heal 50% of that, it's ST, the downside is self-only. (Although 25% healing in this case may be enough to keep the FFTers alive, particularly since Ramza *also* has Wish, if you see the downside as MT. I don't...think I do, I see it as a casting cost. <_<) Scream in the mix makes this...yeah.

Team Magic falls.

Team Mia...mmm, I think she pulls it off. The VP team hurts like a bastard, but...I think she pulls it off. I don't feel like mathing it out, but I think she does.

Team Ashe passes. Boomerang is Floor 1 to me, unless I'm misremembering and it's not the first floor, so Guv's pretty good for smacking crowds. Ricardo makes a good Jeigan, too, and Raquel's always good for less flashy sets of enemies.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Oh, and C:

Just because a spell *can* hit allies means nothing at all, ever.

You can shoot yourself with Fire spells in FF6, too. Terra is not nuking the entire field with her Fire spells. The fact that you can accidentally screw up and do it is only relevant if you 100% consistantly see the spell always doing it under any circumstances. Assuming careful planning, you will never nuke yourself with a FFT spell.

The call might be needed in the case of seeing FFT mages as consistantly hitting their own team, however, due to charge time issues, *if you have that interp*, since logically, if they hit one of their own people, the effect may hit their own team. Which is reasonable as an interp. It assumes poor AI, but I'm not sure how the dungeon feels about AI anymore; People used to assume poor AI for it all the time though. But just the ability to *hit* allies means nothing.

Terra can also specifically choose which enemy to hit with her Fire spells in FF6, but on this floor, she's forced to hit all possible targets. FFT mages can choose to aim their spells around their allies, but here it's being forced to hit all available targets.

Obvious stuff: A Single-target FFT spell has no chance to hit allies if it's aimed, so it only hits one team, but any GT/MT FFT spell has a fairly high likelihood of hitting an ally (especially a computer-controlled one!) Or if you're using Math skills. Of course, any FFT MT spell that -can't- hit allies wouldn't be an issue here.

So yes, Flare isn't a problem.

Why would the ID blocker be illegal? They have more than one (Armor as well), I really don't see why you wouldn't allow it. And to Djinn: Basically Hamedo's like Mirror Stance if it triggers. 

Angel Rings: Can't buy them by this point in the Dungeon. As I increase my knowledge of what abilities/equips are available when, I try to incorporate that for both the enemy PCs/bosses/temps and the player-teams.

For now, I'm still just scaling endgame stats, but abilities and equips I'm generally seeing as floor-dependent.

-Djinn

[superaielman]

*Nods* Okay, that makes sense.

[Magic Fanatic]

Yeah, so...  I typed this up when struck with insomnia one night, and it seems valid enough to me.  Don't ask about the formatting though, I don't know why I put it like that.

View on Final Fantasy Tactics stat (de)buffs, positive status, and negative status.

Final Fantasy is a wide-spanning series in terms of spells of benefit and woe.  There exist numerous spells that cause effects that can either benefit or hurt you.  However, there is one game (or, rather, one TYPE of game) that differs from the normal Final Fantasy.  This to which I am referencing is Final Fantasy Tactics.

In this game, base stats usually remain minuscule, but thanks to the system, this is not directly noticed.  No, what one's attention should be drawn to is the various skills each character has, ranging from Arm Aim to nullify a character's ability to do anything for a turn, to MBarrier, which adds a whole bevy of positive status to a character, to skills that directly change a character's stats.  The purpose of this essay is to hopefully make a definition of each of these stats.

Final Fantasy Tactics makes the distinction of buffs in two types - positive status, and direct stat buffs.  Stat buffs are often the more important of the two, as they are the "Input Numbers" to any equation.  From here on, they will be noted as Tier 1 buffs.  While important, tier 1 buffs are invisible, and permanent for the duration of the battle.  There is nothing in-game to combat these buffs, except for Tier 1 debuffs; which is to say, direct stat downs.  All formulae are based on base stats, and any modification to base stats have an extremely large benefit.  There is a cap to base stats, however, and stat buffing beyond this point becomes impossible (or, at the very least, worthless).

Tier 1 buffs are made more recognizable for the fact that they are not dispelled by anything, as opposed to Tier 2 buffs (Positive Status like Shell, Protect, Reraise, etc.).  Tier 2 buffs instead directly affect the OUTCOME of a formula, be it more or less damage, speed, etc., but are made less potent by several facts; first, if applied by anything other than equipment, have a set duration in battle.  Second, while Tier 1 buffs of the same type can be stacked, Tier 2 buffs of the same type cannot.  Third, and probably the most damning of Tier 2 buffs in-game, is that they can be ended early by the in-game equivalent of Dispel Magic.

Dispel Magic, however, is very specific in what it targets.  While it does not target Tier 1 buffs, it instead targets Tier 2 buffs.  There also exists negative status (Tier 2 debuffs) that can counteract some Tier 2 buffs.  In short, Tier 1-based skills can only counteract Tier 1-based skills, and Tier 2-based skills can counteract Tier 2-based skills.

In an example, let us use Lady vs. Ramza (yes, I know this is quite an unfair pairing, but allow me to make my point).  Let's say Ramza goes first here and uses Scream.  Lady notices the increase in stats and uses Lost Progress (which, in-game, not only targets the stat-ups, but also things like Ricardo's Serenades), which removes the increases from Scream (while being a direct increase to stats, they're an invisible boost).  Ramza then gets his face beaten in by the following Malice Dirge.

In short, FFT stat (de)buffs are not indispelable, FFT Dispel just fails at life.

Also, a few extra points I would like to make...

Lilka's durability is still notably below average, the dragging down that Tim causes is compensated by Ashley and Brad's good to excellent HP - and Wizard alone OHKOs average, or borderline does. I.e. she's not living. Not to mention FP in WA2 does nothing to durability - that's WA3. And keep in mind that Reflect is 50 FP (assuming you even get a L2 Crest spell, which is still a laughable idea this early) and Lilka will only be able to cast it turn 2 at the earliest. By then, she's already long dead. She can't act twice in a single turn, which is the only situation where this makes sense. You see, the sum of all the enemies you're facing combined can deal about 2.5x PC HP in damage. Nobody in your party has even close to that kind of durability. And Double Leader attack is about the same in damage as Tir+Riou physicals, is my kneejerk? Thus, it's... not really doing anything special, if you even consider it legal.

Do you do ANY research to your claims, Snow?  Three FAQs I looked at put Reflect as an L1 spell, and here you are claiming it's an L2.

ST->MT this floor. Tir can't bait anything. Deep mist is also: Blind, not effective (Angel rings). How are you winning the battle if everyone's playing defensively? The enemy team has way too much offense to do that. No matter what defensive spells you use you're going to be toast if you let a bunch of FFT mages have a free crack at your team.

You missed the point of the baiting.  It was so that Hamedo WOULD HIT Lilka; the extra FP from taking damage would be useful.  Nevermind the fact that with Mint's Haste and a casting of Gale, Lilka probably laps the FFT mages before they can get their spells out (What's about 130% to 150% average speed in this point in the game, multiplied by 2 for Haste and then by 1.42 for Gale, vs spellcasters that take somewhere around 1.5x the average turn to get their damage out?  Yeah).



Also, the percentages you've noted are FAR above average, unless you take average FFT Brave and Faith as higher than 50 (I might be persuaded to 52 for Brave, but that's the limit).  Hell, given that the Mages rely on equipment for half their damage...  Nerf that at all, and they're toast.

Not to mention that the stat topics might be KINDA skewed?  Assuming an average faith of 50, Zalbag has...  A 100.1% chance of hitting with his Ruin skills.  Now, since other games make the distinction between MATK and MDEF proper...  I'm assuming that (thanks to the general recruitment ability) that Faith for MDEF is about 30.  Lucia S-DEF oil (Grass x Misty in the WORST case)?  16 (I do believe that it's 13.2 if you get the ring perfect).  Assuming the 30?  Zalbag's Ruins have about a 60% chance to hit.  After the oil?  That number falls to just under a third (to about a quarter).

(Numbers taken from the following FAQs: 

Zalbag's base Faith:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/197339/30113

FFT Ruin numbers:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/197339/3876

There's my back-up proof.)



Anywho, after this week, I'm going on vacation.

[Taishyr]

As a final wrap-up note, Miasma and Lady Ashe pass

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Yeah, so...  I typed this up when struck with insomnia one night, and it seems valid enough to me.  Don't ask about the formatting though, I don't know why I put it like that.

tl;dr

In short, FFT stat (de)buffs are not indispelable, FFT Dispel just fails at life.

So does WA2 Dispel. Thus, a dispel that fails at life doesn't debuff FFT stat busts.

Lilka's durability is still notably below average, the dragging down that Tim causes is compensated by Ashley and Brad's good to excellent HP - and Wizard alone OHKOs average, or borderline does. I.e. she's not living. Not to mention FP in WA2 does nothing to durability - that's WA3. And keep in mind that Reflect is 50 FP (assuming you even get a L2 Crest spell, which is still a laughable idea this early) and Lilka will only be able to cast it turn 2 at the earliest. By then, she's already long dead. She can't act twice in a single turn, which is the only situation where this makes sense. You see, the sum of all the enemies you're facing combined can deal about 2.5x PC HP in damage. Nobody in your party has even close to that kind of durability. And Double Leader attack is about the same in damage as Tir+Riou physicals, is my kneejerk? Thus, it's... not really doing anything special, if you even consider it legal.

Do you do ANY research to your claims, Snow?  Three FAQs I looked at put Reflect as an L1 spell, and here you are claiming it's an L2.

Actually, it is a L1. HOWEVER - it is also 50 FP. You'd need to attack AND get hit to access it. Early game starting FP in WA2 sucks, it's probably not past 15 at that point. Lilka gets 16 points by getting hit, and she'd need to take damage that outright OHKOs her to get to 50 FP, at which point it doesn't even matter. And then, there are those who don't allow FP built over a round to be used in that same round, as you can't do that in-game. But the point is no, you don't get to cast Reflect, you don't get to do anything that'll stop you from getting slaughtered - and half the mages in there have spells that own Reflect anyway. Stop trying.

[Magic Fanatic]

Actually, it is a L1. HOWEVER - it is also 50 FP. You'd need to attack AND get hit to access it. Early game starting FP in WA2 sucks, it's probably not past 15 at that point. Lilka gets 16 points by getting hit, and she'd need to take damage that outright OHKOs her to get to 50 FP, at which point it doesn't even matter. And then, there are those who don't allow FP built over a round to be used in that same round, as you can't do that in-game. But the point is no, you don't get to cast Reflect, you don't get to do anything that'll stop you from getting slaughtered - and half the mages in there have spells that own Reflect anyway. Stop trying.

Actually, playing the game regularly (since I do believe you at least allow levels around the time Tim joins) it's...  20?  22?  Yeah.  Also, which of the mages have which spells that own Reflect?  And which spells do it?  I'm curious.

Also, if I remember correctly, the algorithm Gourry posted for FP gaining in WA2 is 1 FP for every 2.5% of their max HP that they take in damage.  Assuming that Monk doesn't borderline 2HKO (leaning to the 2HKO, I win if he barely misses it) Lilka (or if Riou goes before Tir), that's...  Very possible.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

If he deals 50% Lilka, she's getting 20 FP. Not enough, she'd have to attack anyway, and I can't see Monk dealing anything higher to average (hell, he's probably dealing less). In which case, still no dice.

[Magic Fanatic]

If he deals 50% Lilka, she's getting 20 FP. Not enough, she'd have to attack anyway, and I can't see Monk dealing anything higher (hell, he's probably dealing less). In which case, still no dice.

Um...  Wouldn't you agree that Hamedo at least could pick up multiple times in a round?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

On average, it won't. 70% odds of kicking in, the first time would connect, second wouldn't. And if you're trying to get it to connect twice -and- banking Lilka to get 2HKO, congrats, you're getting your team killed more. If Hamedo kicks in twice, Lilka dies and you have no more reviver. >_>

[Magic Fanatic]

Well, isn't that still assuming that Riou goes after Tir?  Still, I'm just thinking about that 46%-49% range for Lilka.  That works the best for her in this, anyway, then Riou can L3 the team up, possibly getting berserk on either Tir or himself (but that's an aside).

You even said it more than likely deals less than the 2HKO.  I'd just need the Monk to deal about 75% of Lilka's HP, given levels around the Trial arena.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

You even said it more than likely deals less than the 2HKO.  I'd just need the Monk to deal about 75% of Lilka's HP, given levels around the Trial arena.

To -average-. Lilka isn't average by any means. And Riou -should- go after Tir, he's the next fastest person in the group.

EDIT: Also, Monk can just -not- equip Hamedo, in which case baiting is pointless, and your offense still isn't enough to kill the mages. Well, that was pointless.

[Talaysen]

Tangent, but this is annoying me.

Nevermind the auto-win Lady gets from facing TransGender Cid with Excalibur (Excalibur adds Haste, Lady uses Lost Progress and smashes his face in with Malice Dirge.  Excalibur re-adds Haste, Lady proceeds to beat him in the face yet again, repeat ad infinitum until Cid is a pile of smoking ashes, and the Excalibur is broken worse than the US 2005ish economy).

Excalibur doesn't CAST Haste, it's innate.  So Lady can't do jack shit about it.  Not to mention it's undispellable anyways.

[Magic Fanatic]

Lilka isn't that bad at that point, is she?

Also, uh...  Actually, I don't even know if I can dispute the point about the speed difference between Tir and Riou.  Given their in-game performance in where they'd each be in-game...  The speed values are WAY too close for me to tell - probably within a point of each other in the averages?


Also, sorry about that, Tal.  Guess my interpretation of what I was looking at was wrong, then.  EDIT:  I'll edit that part out of my essay, at any rate.