LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Edit - I guess I should have said like comparing Bolt 1 to Bolt 4 after all, but well... Bolt 4 sucks so hard and Haste/Slow 2 here quite clearly do not.

LFT Bolt 4 is...hmm...well it was fine back when it had more area than all other black magic.  I'm sitting here trying to figure out why Laggy shrunk the area AND reduced the damage.  Reducing the area to match other black magic could make sense.  Similarly, keeping the area but reducing the damage so that it's less MP efficient for more area could make sense.  But both is WTF.


Side note: last time I played, Haste 2 was 24 MP and 2 CT.  Looking at the changelog, it looks like Laggy changed it to 30 MP.  According to the changelog he also changed it to 3 CT, though I'm not seeing the patch I have from October.

Personally, I think making H2/S2 40 MP compared to H1/C1's 8 would be ideal.

See, I think that would be terrible design.


Bolt 1 vs Bolt 3, say (closest MP comparison right now) there's multiple reasons why you might use Bolt 1, be it MP or CT.  Making Haste 2 completely awesome in every area except MP is just...if you have the MP, you cast it, and if you don't have the MP, you don't cast it.  Your Summoner with Half of MP will basically always use Haste 2.  Your Monk with Time Magic secondary will always use Haste 1.

And why is that a fundamental problem? Different niches work out distinctly, and the way Hastes/Slows are stacked, it's only natural that they end up this way, because a different shift completely trivializes one or the other. If you have Haste 1 at 2CT and Haste 2 at 4, then you have absolutely no reason to use the latter unless the area/accuracy make a ridiculous difference - in the case of Haste, it -rarely- does, because even Haste 1 is easy to position people in order to maximize targets - you're not going to want to spend four times more MP there when you can save more resources -and- get a spell off faster for at most two targets less unless terrain is ridiculously unfavorable (and even on terrains with tons of subtle, yet prohibitive terrain variances like Mandalia Plains, you can easily hit at least three of your allies with Haste 1). Many cases where it doesn't, you often also -don't- want to cast Haste 2 either due to the liability of hitting -enemies- with it. And if you stuck a Monk with Black Magic, he'd be very unlikely to cast even past Bolt 1 (let's ignore just how awful the idea is for a moment) because of the fierce MP limitations. Sometimes, the MP issues just speak loudest and that's fine. I don't see why it's design to have a dichotomy of one variation being always eschewed by the other due to circumstances when a situation goes both ways - i.e. both end up in viable, non-trivial and non-entirely theoretical situations where they have a clear superiority. Haste 1 is the unmitigated winner in a situation, Haste 2 is the unmitigated winner in the other? Sure, works - because at least this means there are clear uses for each. Bad design would be if one completely removed the point of the other in all practical situations, which is -clearly- not the case. And shifting the balance backwards again will make the L2s the poor option overall again, when their initial problem was that they were crappy and that needed fixed.

EDIT: And, within the realm you established your theoretical ideas: a Priest with Time Magic secondary will want to shuffle between both, because there are many things she wants to do with her MP - she needs to ponder whether Haste 2 will cause her to run out of resources later on for healing and revival or not. Same thing for a Wizard with Time Magic secondary, Counter Magic and Magic Attack UP, for an example that involves a RSM. Even if there are a few distinct extremes that won't make such a choice, there are many in-betweens that will - not to mention Half of MP is generally a sacrificing choice in and out of itself, which alone already shifts dynamics.
 
EDIT: Huh, Laggy -did- change it to 3CT. Thought it was still 2CT, thus why I made the 3 CT suggestion.

[Yakumo]

I still have no idea why you have this obsession with wanting to use every single spell in the game for the entire game, mc.  The way it looks to me, H1/S1 are clearly better early because they have a lower JP cost and they are less MP intensive on your limited reserves.  They are mostly inferior later after you can handle the higher cost of access to both purchase and use H2/S2.  Therefore, even if you ignore the fact that a lot of people still use H1/S1 late game to save resources when their targets are close enough together, they both have their niche.  The first version for earlygame, and then the upgraded version for lategame.  I kinda thought this was the entire point of having a second version of the same effects, to be an upgrade, not a sidegrade.  We aren't Valve making TF2 unlockables here. <_<

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I had a person whose entire magey job on the team was to cast Haste and Slow. Physical class with a robe. It works pretty well since Time Magic (beyond Meteor) is minimally MA-dependent. I bought Haste 1 and it was a complete waste of my money, especially in later chapters.

Late C3 and C4 went like this:

Step 1: Sprint Shoes

Step 2: Instacast Haste 2 on the entire party

Step 3:

I mean, if you want to make it cheap and fast and huge and less height dependent I will continue using it forever and ever, of course. I just think it's too good. >_>

I'll have to put up that you could do something not entirely dissimilar with Haste 1 in the original FFT with a non-annoying extra amount of effort (if you can afford the time to buff as is, positioning your entire party for a Haste isn't hard) and for much less MP. <_<  I do agree that the extra area and speed makes the masscasting panic far shinier, but looks like more that it's something inherent to how good Haste itself is to begin with, and, as I said before: it's so costly on one's reserves that it better be that damned good, and LFT in general warrants this far more than the original did. Although hmmm, this does emphasize the fact that the JP cost upping could be good - although I dunno, 400 JP looks good for Haste 2 - it's a commitment to beeline for it as it stands.

[Grefter]

Economy of design, if the ability has no use then what is the point of it being there?  It is a sexy thing.  Edit - This would be directed at Yakko and why mc would want every spell to be useful.

I do agree that when you are talking about the scope of 2 spells that both provide the same single status effect you are going to have serious issues working it neat and tidy with them both good spells that are always worth using.  Just putting it out there while we are on this, Masamune shits all over both of them anyway on the Haste side here.

And meh Ciato, you found a niche that magnifies the effectiveness of the spell by many times.  It is quite possibly a an optimal choice of character to make early game (Well making a direct grab for TM JP on what is going to be a physical character early game... I can't see it anymore without Teleport to grab, but better JP gain and faster class unlocks MAY be skewing this more than I thought it does.  I really need to get to actually brute forcing my way through this after Dragon Age is finished I think).  That said, you are still making a pretty specific setup for it so eh.  (You are stuck in... Knight and Geomancer is it for the Robes?) and after Chapter 1 you are sacrificing the killing power of the unit a bit to do it just on equipment and may be spending a possibly more useful secondary.  So it is still a trade off you have to choose in and of itself, I mean just because you CAN Robe and do it, you could also still just do the more standard Haste/Slow usage for TM secondary that there has always been and keep that Power Sleeve or whatever.

Seems like a meaningful decision to me which is exactly what we want.  It is an effective choice, but it is one you have made and not a no brainer decision.  I would be more worried about you being able to easilly use Slow 2 offensively that early than Haste 2 buffing early on.

Edit 2 - Prohibitive JP is also of course a solid choice.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Gref: Masamune's a lot riskier to use in that sense, particularly now that it's a valuable weapon very much worth equipping (naturally has a damage boost due to Wind-elemental+Wind augmenting, gives Speed +1 and it's on a class with innate Concentrate+2 Hands - even outside Samurai class, it's a weapon that's quite possibly worth giving someone Equip Katana for assuming the character has the necessary Brave to make the formula not bring it down), so it doesn't trivialize the Hastes entirely, and it still has friendly fire concerns along with lowered radius/tolerance. It still shits all over Haste 1, but Haste 2 is a more interesting deal - although probably still superior if you have them in bulk, but if you do, you're likely to steamroll everything twice over as is. >_>

[Yakumo]

Grefter, I'm not saying it shouldn't be useful.  I'm saying it doesn't necessarily have to keep it's use through the entire game.  It's awesome in the first couple chapters since it does the same thing and is cheap, just smaller area.  Then, as your resources get better, the more expensive and better version takes precedence.  I honestly think that this is good design for a set of spells like this.  I don't see a pressing need for the cheap version to maintain equality in endgame, especially since it's clearly superior in the earlygame.

[Grefter]

Gref: Masamune's a lot riskier to use in that sense, particularly now that it's a valuable weapon very much worth equipping (naturally has a damage boost due to Wind-elemental+Wind augmenting, gives Speed +1 and it's on a class with innate Concentrate+2 Hands - even outside Samurai class, it's a weapon that's quite possibly worth giving someone Equip Katana for assuming the character has the necessary Brave to make the formula not bring it down), so it doesn't trivialize the Hastes entirely, and it still has friendly fire concerns along with lowered radius/tolerance. It still shits all over Haste 1, but Haste 2 is a more interesting deal - although probably still superior if you have them in bulk, but if you do, you're likely to steamroll everything twice over as is. >_>

No, it doesn't trivialise Haste or Haste 2, but it is bucket loads better (Poachable as well, so the risk is decidedly MUUUUUUCH lower than it ever was in FFT).  The point was that it DOESN'T trivalize it and hey presto, when you examine why (accessibility being huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge draw back) bickety bam, there is an argument!  Just because Haste 2 is very good, doesn't mean that Haste 1 is worthless.

And yeah I got that Yakko, just saying why in general I would think met likes to have all spells be useful, not specifically an argument regarding Haste here.  I think Haste 1 is in a fine spot personally (bumping the 2s back a bit could be in order, but I think we are arguing a far more finer point of balance here than there really would be in vanilla FFT.  LFT at the moment is a fairly tightly tuned little machine).

[Dark Holy Elf]

Another thought I was playing around with: the power of Bolt 2 compared to Bolt 1 lies in its multiplier. The fact that Bolt 2 only has 2 advantages where Haste 2 has 6 is fine to me because the power of the spell is the most important thing about it. Haste 2 doesn't have a power upgrade over Haste; given the same number of targets they do the same thing. The only thing I can see that is power-related is the speed of the spell. This applies particularly to Haste/Slow, where the faster the spell comes out, the stronger the effective modifier to speed is.

Since I am strongly in favour of later spells having more power than earlier, it seems that Haste 2/Slow 2 should maintain their greater speed. I think this is why I feel more strongly that Haste/Slow 2 should maintain their low CT (read: I think it should stay at 2) while not really minding what other changes are made to them.

Short Charge makes 3 CT and 4 CT the same, meh to that. Go 5/3 if you you really want the L2's to be 3 CT.

mc: A Summoner with Half of MP is a bit of a forced example. Yes, you always use Haste 2 then, but it's an extreme. A similar extreme: you always use Haste 1 in the first half of Chapter 1, because the MP cost of the L2 is ridiculous. At the extremes, one spell will dominate. The question is, is there a balance somewhere in the middle, and I definitely feel there is. If you have 70 MP, which one you cast will vary by battle. Same's true if you have 100 MP but want to cast Meteor or Holy. etc.

[Laggy]

The theory behind 3CT is that it doesn't outpace the priority 2CT spells (which are as is: Silence Song, Reflect, Life Drain, Spell Absorb, and Cure/Moogle). All of those have a decent argument at needing to outpace Haste 2/Slow 2 (or Protect/Shell 2 for that matter).

Haste and Slow going up to 5 I'm kind of eh on. On the other hand, differentiation between CT times under Short Charge is good, true. On the other hand, I'm not sure they need the further nerf, and it still matters without Short Charge. I guess there's the argument to be made that there are times you -want- them to be slow but still kind of shaky on that logic.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I'd honestly be fine with upping Haste/Slow 2's cost further, upping their JP cost and putting them back at 2CT if the CT differentiation is absolutely necessary under Short Charge. The not outpacing priority spells point seems vaguely moot to me - if you get a turn, you're unlikely to stop that casting with something that has a casting time as well unless you're running SC, and then, lategame TMs can have Short Charge themselves, further compounding the issue. If you absolutely want to buff H1/S1 as well, 3/2 CT for L1/2 is an alternative, but the symmetry is less elegant there for a number of reasons.

[metroid composite]

Black L4s kind of dropped from 10 to 6 CT and 48 MP to 36 MP. I'm honestly not sure how you missed that

I didn't.

or how that doesn't make up for a whopping 2 mult drop

Original Bolt 4 was a bad spell.  I was comparing it more to the 36 MP, 8 CT, 32 mult Bolt 4 from previous LFT revisions.

to make BM more "fast, low area damage" vs Summon's "slow, wide area damage".

Yes, I see the goal.  Quick history lesson, though.  Wizard SCC in vanilla FFT learns abilities in the following order:

Bolt 1
Magic Attack Up
Flare

Which is to say, Flare exists in the skillset, and has a history of being better than the higher elementals.  Now...LFT Flare was also buffed.  In LFT, Flare costs 700 JP, 7 CT and has a damage multiplier of 52.  Bolt 4 costs 600 JP, 6CT and has a multiplier of 30.  Almost a factor of 2 difference in damage.  Yeah, Flare costs more MP, but as a singletarget spell it's actually more MP efficient.  Bolt 4's advantage over Flare is the multitarget...something it largely shares with 1, 2, and 3.

Which is to say, if I had the skillset mastered...yeah, I probably would use Bolt 4 from time to time.  But if I didn't, it's...probably one of the last abilities I'd learn at those numbers.  (And yes, it would be learned much earlier if Flare wasn't in the skillset--then it would actually be the high-damage for the skillset).

[Dark Holy Elf]

Ice 1 (sometimes Fire 1) and Bolt 2 are frequently learned before Flare, but yes, the point does stand, there.

[metroid composite]

The only thing I can see that is power-related is the speed of the spell. This applies particularly to Haste/Slow, where the faster the spell comes out, the stronger the effective modifier to speed is.

I think this is why I feel more strongly that Haste/Slow 2 should maintain their low CT (read: I think it should stay at 2)

Hmm, yeah, point taken, I had been mulling over that in the back of my mind.  And frankly: I think this applies to Protect 2/Shell 2 as well for a different reason--if someone has a big spell/charge on them, you want Pro/Shl to hit first.

And yes: I agree on the 2 CT.

The theory behind 3CT is that it doesn't outpace the priority 2CT spells (which are as is: Silence Song, Reflect, Life Drain, Spell Absorb, and Cure/Moogle). All of those have a decent argument at needing to outpace Haste 2/Slow 2

Silence Song: was always able to outpace damage spells, but it usually couldn't stop buffs from going off; it keeps functionality from original FFT.  Reflect...why does Reflect have to outpace Haste 2/Slow 2?  Those two spells are NOT REFLECTABLE.  Spell Absorb...well frankly all this careful timing only matters turn 1 when you and the enemy will be perfectly in-time with each other...and I find it unlikely you'll stop a turn 1 haste spell from going off (enemy AI doesn't like spending more than half their MP on a spell, so you'd need to hit with two Spell Absorbs to stop a spell turn 1).  And...I'm not even sure how Cure, Moogle, and Life Drain are supposed to pre-empt Haste....

while not really minding what other changes are made to them.

Hmm...looking over other potential balancing levers...

I don't want to mess with area: 1 area sucks, and I feel the AoE is at least a big a part of the "power" as the CT is.  I don't want to mess with range: Slow 2 can't go to 2 range (or else you'd hit yourself) and Slow going to 4 range would make Don't Move look bad.

Accuracy.  Accuracy is workable.  Haste can be 100% in Chapter 1 (instead of 91% with both people at 70 faith).  Haste 2 with a more normal accuracy would still be fine (with twinking it still hits perfect accuracy).  Slow 2 you'd have to decide between hitting lots of people, or hitting often only one target but with higher accuracy.

[Tide]

For what its worth, the LFT version I played (something like the Oct 25th version), I often ended up using Haste 2 over Haste. And yes, the big reason was the CTR. Having Haste 2 going off faster than Haste made it a better option. But as already mentioned, I often don't end up having the MP to throw it around repeatedly since 30 MP cost is still really expensive until late Chapter 3 or so. And even then as Snow mentioned, you may still want to consider if spending 30 MP on Haste 2 is worth it over other choices. The fact that LFT is not pure blitz blitz blitz means that sometimes you want to keep more resources around in case something does go wrong.

What I DID end up doing though, was learning Move MP Up and Half of MP. This made Haste 2 and Slow 2 fairly cheap but ends up with a trade off with locking a Support and a Movement slot. So while I do end up using the spell more, there's a pretty decent trade off at the other end.

If you're looking to make Haste/Slow useful, the best thing I could think of is to raise the JP cost of Haste2/Slow2. Well...maybe not Slow 2 since Haste 2 is naturally easier to set up than Slow 2 unless you can manipulate enemies to move where you want. But doing so would give Haste/Slow longer periods of use. I think the 2 CT, 30 MP to use is a pretty good design choice as is (faster, but much larger cost in resources). Changing the JP cost would at least make it such that you gimp yourself via beelining. I tend to think Haste 2 is the bigger and better version so I would keep the CT of Haste the same at 4. At 4 CT, I actually don't find myself saying its the "go to" move of choice. You could make it 3 CT...but don't have any kneejerk opinions of that until I try it in practice.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Accuracy.  Accuracy is workable.  Haste can be 100% in Chapter 1 (instead of 91% with both people at 70 faith).  Haste 2 with a more normal accuracy would still be fine (with twinking it still hits perfect accuracy).  Slow 2 you'd have to decide between hitting lots of people, or hitting often only one target but with higher accuracy.

-That- change, I do like, having pondered on it but not really bringing it up - especially since Haste/Slow spells aren't problematic on accuracy to begin with, but making the difference matter more is neat, along with switching balance in a more subtle manner. It'd be particularly relevant for Slow 1 vs. Slow 2, where the odds are more stacked in Slow 2's favor to begin with. I'd like to see others weigh on it.

[metroid composite]

I still have no idea why you have this obsession with wanting to use every single spell in the game for the entire game, mc.  The way it looks to me, H1/S1 are clearly better early because they have a lower JP cost and they are less MP intensive on your limited reserves.  They are mostly inferior later after you can handle the higher cost of access to both purchase and use H2/S2.

Yes, and we have a lot of stuff like that.  Move+1, Move+2, and Move+3 say hi.  And...good ol Lancer skillset deserves a mention right now.

It's an OK way of designing things (there's definitely worse ways to do it).  It's also a good first step for rebalancing--Mime doesn't work as an endgame class?  Make em unlockable earlygame.

But is it the coolest possible design?  Well...no.  You don't hear people raving about how interesting it is to train Lancers.  It's a functional working design, but when we can improve on it, I like doing so.

If you're looking to make Haste/Slow useful, the best thing I could think of is to raise the JP cost of Haste2/Slow2. Doing so would give Haste/Slow longer periods of use.

"Increase JP" solutions to Haste/Haste2, frankly, bore me.  They really do nothing to change the "here's the earlygame ability, here's the lategame ability" design.  I think we're already achieving that design just fine.

[Yakumo]

I don't hear people raving about how interesting it is to train ANYTHING.  That's not the point and I'm not sure why you're even bringing it up.  You have two things.  A cheap alternative that you use early and is usable late if you didn't want to spend the time in the class to learn the other, and a more expensive but clearly better version.  Hell, if you make them relatively equal you'll have the opposite problem and everyone will just use Haste and not bother learning Haste2, which is just as bad.  I honestly think the way it is is fine.  It's not like Haste just gets ignored by most people or anything.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Hell, if you make them relatively equal you'll have the opposite problem and everyone will just use Haste and not bother learning Haste2, which is just as bad.

This was pretty close to their problem in regular FFT, and yeah, nobody used Haste/Slow 2 ever. So yeah, chiming in there. I think at the moment all four spells are seeing decent amonts of use; this was certainly the case in my two playthroughs of the game.

[Laggy]

Fire 4/Ice 4/Bolt 4 range 4 -> 5
Haste 2/Slow2 CT 3 -> 2, hit rate +240 -> +220, JP cost 350/300
Haste/Slow hit rate +180 -> +200

[SageAcrin]

Chiming in on Haste/Slow:

Haste/Slow 4 Vert.

You want niche use? There you go. I've often thought while playing that this would be an excellent niche for them.

Edit: Also, I like L4s being Range 5 for the record. Wizard feels like it's becoming the range magic skillset, which is just cool as a niche.

[Tide]

"Increase JP" solutions to Haste/Haste2, frankly, bore me.  They really do nothing to change the "here's the earlygame ability, here's the lategame ability" design.  I think we're already achieving that design just fine.

Well yes >_>. It's not the most interesting solution by far, but it is an effective one if you want to emphasize something and the simplest one.

In regards to changing the accuracy of the spells...I don't see any problem outright with it. My kneejerk is to think that the level 2s are stronger versions of the spells, so them having less accuracy (despite more range and AoE), would feel kinda of weird. Also ends up being a more effective way to get Haste/Slow on to lower faith people. Not sure if this is the intended effect, but certainly gives it an extra edge. Guess I'll try it out once I repatch the new update since Laggy already changed it, it seems.

Sage's suggestion of modifying the vertical on it seems funky. Not sure how practical that is, though it certainly wouldn't hurt in terms of getting extra usage out of!

[Magetastic]

To me, it seems like H/S2 are supposed to be improved versions of H/S. Normally, that would look like the Bolt series. However, since these are buffs, they should act accordingly.

AKA: I agree with making them quicker, wider range, higher MP cost, and less accurate. (Personally, I'd rather see essentially the same spell with a higher MP cost that doesn't target allies if slow, and enemies if haste, but I doubt that's possible)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Depo Dungeon post!


First of all, character setups, since I never really posted these properly. Obviously I don't have the same setup the whole time, but this is roughly where I ended up. After I beat the game I dropped any requirement that a character focus on his or her WA self, but the setups did continue to develop from where they left off at endgame.

Endgame

Jude:
Thief / Item / Auto-Potion / Equip Gun / Move+2
Blaze Gun / empty / Thief Hat / Black Costume / Sprint Shoes

-Sometimes switches to Chemist with Defence Up or Maintenance

Yulie:
Time Mage / White Magic / Counter Flood / Short Charge / Move+1
Wizard Staff / empty / Flash Hat / Wizard Robe / Magic Guantlet

-Often a Geomancer instead of a TM, with a Giant Axe
-Doesn't know any offensive Time Magic
-The accessory slot was often Angel Ring

Arnaud:
Oracle / Time Magic / Abandon / Equip Shield / Teleport
Papyrus Plate / Crystal Shield / Thief Hat / Light Robe / Feather Mantle

-Switches between his main two jobs often
-Doesn't know Haste or Quick spells

Raquel:
Squire / Charge / Counter / Two Hands / Move+3
Save the Queen (2H) / Twist Headband / Power Sleeve / Bracer

-Frequently goes Samurai with Basic Skill and Maintenance/Attack Up
-Reaction switches often to Weapon Guard or Critical Quick


Aftergame

Jude:
Chemist / Talk Skill / Auto-Potion / Equip Bow / Teleport
Perseus Bow (2H) / Thief Hat / Snow Muffler / Dracula Mantle

Comments: He switches between his main two jobs often, and sometimes sets Guts or Steal. The main utility guy, very fast and tanky and keeps people going. Talk Skill has some nice status options at no charge time or MP cost, too. However, late in the aftergame I started to feel that 150 HP healing just wasn't enough. I don't use Elixirs as often as I should, though they are great when I do.

Yulie:
Summoner / White Magic / Auto-Potion / Short Charge / Teleport
Faith Rod / empty / Flash Hat / Light Robe / Setiemson

Comments: I had some doubts if Summon could displace Time Magic but most of the party getting Auto-Haste settled that. She's the party fragile character which I should possibly do something about because her skillsets are awesome.

Arnaud:
(varies!) / Math Skill / Abandon / Equip Shield / Teleport
(varies) / Venetian Shield / Thief Hat / (varies) / Angel Ring

Comments: Usually Oracle, but often Priest or Time Mage or Squire, armour tends to be Light Robe or Black Costume or something. Anyway, he has perfect evade and Math Skill is godlike. Aftergame MVP just for that? Probably. YYM is great too.

Raquel:
Squire / Charge / Blade Grasp / Two Swords / Move+3
Ragnarok / Excalibur / Thief Hat / Power Sleeve / Salty Rage

Comments: Possibly the least changed character from the main game, she still just KILLS THINGS. Now with four auto-statuses, so she's actually fast and tanky. Surprised that Charge stayed in over Draw Out, but when the rest of my party isn't about killing power with the exception of maybe Yulie, getting those OHKOs is crucial, and Draw Out's utility wasn't too appealing in my party which had no shortage of it.

Meliadoul:
Divine Knight / Punch Art / Abandon / Attack Up / Move+3
Materia Blade-or-StQ / Venetian Shield / Thief Hat / Power Sleeve / Setiemson

Comments: Basically been spending the aftergame with Equip Sword and mucking around in Thief/Ninja/Dancer/Geomancer/Monk with a Materia Blade to get the skills I want with her; finally done. Mighty Sword varies in usefulness but both halves of it are pretty cool, an upped Battle Skill with some drawbacks but still better overall. I miss Magic Break, though; only Arnaud can dispel as it stands. She's the LVP overall probably, but there are some crucial battles she breaks. Punch Art gives me a third healer.


So, comments on the individuals Deep Dungeon battles. For those of you who don't know, 1 out of every 4 battles on each floor has been replaced with a new super-fight, usually featuring at least one boss with the Zodiac flag. Comments on my experiences with them follow. If you haven't fought them and intend to, I recommend not reading them, because the surprise is some of the fun! GAMEPLAY SPOILERS follow, as such:

(reset counts are once I make a serious effort to kill that fight, not randomly running into them earlier in my DD trek, which tended to kill me)

NOGIAS - Goblins

Ten zodiac Red Goblins. It's scarier than it sounds because they will Goblin Punch you in the face and that does 999 damage as soon as they're at all beat up. And they have the usual Goblin tricks otherwise (Eye Gouge). There are enough of them that you don't really want to get drawn into a slugfest where you will be confused and hit for 999. However, this is still not too bad as far as the super-fights go, because they have many weaknesses. No status immunities, so you can go crazy on those. (I imagine Petrify works, didn't think to try it.) Math Skill'd Poison rips them apart as they travel up to meet you, and Math Skill Demi cuts through their HP in near-999 damage slices. Blade Grasp also shuts down all their offence except SECRET FIST, and Heal solves that, or even ID immunity. Raquel and Arnaud own this fight, even though Arnaud is still in Calc here.

TERMINATE - Algus

I fought a glitched copy of this first, so had to come back after doing the first seven floors or so. By that time it was little match for me.

So anyway, Algus only has 999 HP because he has equipment. He also lacks Maintenance unlike every single other Zodiac human so Meliadoul can ruin his day. HIS CROSSBOW ANTICS ARE RUINED! Besides that this fight is much like Algus' first fight, knights and wizards. Human enemies are annoying because of their Feather Mantles, but there are ways to cut through that of course (Icewolf Bite and various status effects are my ways of choice). Wizards have Short Charge but still aren't ultimately too problematic. Algus himself can't dominate the battle (also statusable) so it's just a fight against some high-level knights and wizards, which is nothing that can't be handled reasonably.

DELTA - Rudvich

Rudvich himself has Scream, good stats to start with, and will kill you with dual punches and Earth Slash in particular. He's not really the focus of the battle, though. The real problem is two Steel Giants, and to a lesser extent, three Thieves and three Mediators with elemental guns, though the latter start pretty far away.

The Steel Giants act together, and either pick off two PCs or kill one unless he or she has Auto-Potion or ridiculous HP. I faced this one several time on my two playthroughs and I never won it when I let both Steel Giants live long. Powerful Raquel beats and chipping with the Perseus Bow works well for killing them, though.

Rudvich himself is owned by earth immunity and evade together (hello TM Arnaud) but more than that he is nothing special if you avoid giving him multi-Earth Slash kills; low move prevents him from killing anyone you really don't want him to. Math Skill confuse on the Mediators and maybe Thieves help them run a lot of interference and wastes Rudvich turns.

VOYAGE - Zalmo - REPENT!

The most memorable part of this battle, for sure, is the four Teleport 2 Oracles who make your life miserable or just rape you with their Two Hands Whale Whisker and Madlemgen nonsense. They blitz you fast, and I respond in kind, killing and statusing them as best I'm able.

Zalmo himself has picked up some swordskills, both Beowulf's and Holy Explosion, and has Excalibur. Still, he's not really potent enough to run a terribly frightening offence, as he doesn't OHKO or anything (terrible PA). And by the time you're messing with him, the rest of the battle is under control, anyway.

There are also some Wizards, I think. It's a bad sign I don't remember. This battle had me really scared with those Oracles but after that it blurs a bit, and it is the last battle that didn't kill me. I still enjoy the fight overall, it wasn't such a breeze that I wasn't worried, and if I'd been a little slower at dealing with those Oracles, things would seriously have gone south as the cavalry arrived.

MLAPAN - Barinten (1 reset)

This is one of my favourites. Barinten himself is nothing more than a glorified Mustadio, with a Mithril Gun and Snipe. Still, he's extremely tanky (Damage Split along with Defences Up and 3000 HP) so he's going to be annoying you a lot while you deal with his support. Said support consists of Archers using every non-Chantage perfume and one of each of the super-bows, a pack of Ninjas, and two Chantage Maintenance Dancers whom you can never kill and are dirty whores. They like to use Nameless Dance, let them get it off and you potentially lose.

Ninjas are fairly fragile. This is a mercy, since I'm able to kill them off... reasonably quickly. The Archers are the real problem, although occasionally a Ninja does come in and grap a cheap kill with Throw. The Archers, apart from having okay physicals, use various magic skillsets; White raises, Oracle and TM status you in annoying ways.

Ultimately, the fight does come down to the Dancers, though. Lots of ways to kill them, from Math Skill to picking them off with various attacks, but they take valuable turns. In my first fight I eventually let one sneak through and it inflicts Undead on Jude, he dies shortly after and I game over from there since I can't revive him. Yep.

TIGER - Funeral (1 reset)

Oh boy, whorishness. Three Bards, three Dancers, three Mimes. I mentioned Nameless Dance already, it still kills you. Everything is far worse with three Mimes, though. Math Skill Confuse takes out as many things as possible but they do tend to heal each other. Fortunately the Confuse delays the oncoming Dances. Mimes... just try to status them as best as possible because even one Nameless sneaking through when Mimes are active is brutal.

Granted, you can also kill the Mimes outright (unlike the Bards and Dancers, they start pretty close). Funeral himself, though, will just cast Reanimate, reviving all of them. And Funeral himself has loads of HP. (In the current version. In the version I fought a couple months back, he had only 999 HP and was easily killed.)

Fortunately, Funeral himself provides a strategy for destroying the Mimes, and even the entire battle. He uses Blood Suck. Blood Sucked units can kill Funeral quickly with their simple mHP/4 gravity (other drains would of course work with the right party) and Blood Sucked Mimes don't mime.

So basically I win this battle by running Math Skill interference on everyone, getting intentionally Blood Sucked, and watching the Blood Sucked units kill Funeral, then proceed down the map, infecting everyone in their path. Yulie teleports to the far end of the battlefield so all the enemies are blood sucked before they reach her. ZOMBIE INVASION leads to victory.

BRIDGE - Izlude (2 resets)

I had a hand in making this one, but it changed enough from my original design that it caught me by surprise. The main focus of the battle is the Draw Out Geomancers, who do loads of damage which is hard to block, add status, and are a pain to kill because of mantle + shield. The Punch Art Lancers function similarly, though aren't nearly as dangerous; on the other hand, they're even more durable. Izlude himself is pretty slow and vulnerable to being made slower still, but he likes to do things like break an equip and then kill the person anyway.

First time I fight this battle I withstand the assault of the enemies well only to die when an enemy I killed first turn, an undead Summoner with Non-Charge, comes back to life and kills two crucial people instantly. Second time I just get overwhelmed fast before I can overwhelm them.

Third battle I have more luck with Talk Skill and Math Skill disabling a few opponents long enough for Raquel to kill him. Meliadoul destroys the Summoner's Cursed Ring and I kill him so he can't be a factor. Izlude himself gets owned by Speed Ruin. A very good fight for Meliadoul in general; she also breaks a lot of Mantles so Raquel can kill things. Gotta put the little bro in his place.

Though the one Geomancer who has an Axe and Weapon Guard probably needs a new set now that axes no longer give good Weapon-evade. <_<

VOYAGE - Larg and Goltana (2 resets)

Goltana has Galaxy Stop, so we block that or die. Defence Rings to the rescue!

A surprising amount of my troubles here come from the two undead Knights at the start of the battle who use some nasty swordskills and have gross equipment (along with Maintenance and boss immunity). I have to change Jude to Chemist so he can throw an item at the Holy Knight wannabe turn 1. Beyond that, they're always the first to go.

Larg has some super annoying Math Skill, which I take care of by having Arnaud Innocent him with Math Skill. I try not to innocent too many other people because it gets rid of Arnaud's ability to control with Slow and Confuse, as usual.

The Squires are kinda pains with their knight swords and Reinforce, but take a while to show up at least. Once I'm engaging with them and Goltana at once, though, things get tricky (Goltana has Sword Spirit). Part of the reason I have resets here? In my three battles, Raquel criticals on the first swing, causing the fatal second hit to miss. FOUR TIMES. Always on Squires (everyone else here immunes knockback!). Arrggh. That's just ridiculous odds.

HORROR - Queklain, Velius, Zalera, Hashmalum (1 reset)

They lack their level advantages from when you fight them for reals so individually they're less scary. That said, what they do add up. Lots of obnoxious status is flying (Zal's Confuse 2 and Toad 2, Quek's Nightmare, Hashy's Seal, Velius' Loss and Lose Voice) and Zalera even has pretty good, fast damage (as does Velius once innocent wears off, but at least he's slow). Hashy with his super speed would be a great target for killing first but Damage Split says no go. Zalera is the other logical choice, and though Speed Save is intimidating he's still whom I go for first. I actually give Raquel SPIKE SHOES for this battle so she can reach him turn 1. Holy crap I used Spike Shoes in a serious battle.

Math Skill Slow keeps things under control, and other than that it's spamming status healing and revival while killing guys. Zalera eventually does die to Raquel hits + a Lich, at which point things start to get easier. Queklain falls next because he's easy to kill. Velius has Shock and I don't really want to hurt him until I start to kill him, and we all know Hashy's damage split. Still, Slowed Velius is very slow, and Arnaud gets in a tripleturn there, so three Life Drains + some other stuff = dead Velius. Hash goes last, I break his brave down some then kill.

END - Elidibs (1 reset)

Not a random like the rest, but certainly deserves comment. Eight units for support? Crazy. Meliadoul busts the swords of the knights so they can't do much of anything. Tiamats are pains but lack Defence Up and don't get scarier as you beat them up, unlike the Apanda and Byblos. Confuse and Slow are still wonderful, especially Slow on Elidibs to keep him irrelevant for as long as possible as I work on killing the other enemies.

The Byblos ally is kinda interesting. He basically always eats Poison Frog first turn, but he's worth healing since he can MBarrier you. Of course the enemy Bybloses also have Mbarrier. Confuse is good. So is Dispel Magic when their buffs slip through.

Largely just a tough fight to stay on top of with all the insanity going on. The Tiamats are probably the most crucial enemies, once both are down or contained, things go much better (Tiamats have the added bonus of needing to do a lot of damage to unconfuse an ally). Elidibs himself has Midgarzolom which really hurts, and adds some status if it doesn't kill, but it almost always does. Slow + beat him up.

Dycedarg and Adramelk

This one's pretty easy. Adramelk's Undeath no longer adds Charm (if it did I'd just pack N-Kai Armlets, of course), and with the level of status healing I have the rest of what he does doesn't really matter. From there on he kills one PC a turn but with my speed shenangians and revival that's no problem, and his HP is nothing special. It doesn't help that Dycedarg is virtually a non-factor because he has to come all the way down. For lulz I drop his PA and speed down to 2 while Arnaud hunts treasure.

Raquel gets a shiny Chaos Blade and Yulie (later Arnaud) gets the Robe of Lords here.

Rafas and Malaks

For the most part, I'm okay with the zodiac flag. However, this is one fight where I share Random's concerns with it. Ten enemies with the Zodiac flag is a bit much, and it doesn't even help them that much (having fought them before the got the Zodiac flag, 999 HP instead of 500 or doesn't matter too much... it'd be higher without the glitch but 10 2k+ HP enemies isn't much fun beyond the novelty of the Goblin fight). And I dislike the lack of information it creates; it's okay on a boss, but on ten enemies, less so.

Anyway, Rafas have pretty scary damage but their faith and initial position makes them massive bait to Math Skill. Malaks are less dangerous. Lots of sexy perfumes to swipe here.

Super Sekret 11-Enemy Fight

Gltiches the game due to crystals. They did nothing but waste turns, but that's probably also due to the glitch.

Altima, Altima and Ajora (2 resets)

Probably the only one worth calling a super-fight of the END randoms, and probably the hardest fight in the Deep Dungeon. I run into no ends of trouble here. The problems:

-Anything you kill comes back due to Arch Angel's Reanimate. If what comes back is a Demon, it has a 400 damage Ulmaguest. Ow.
-MBarrier is the demons. Both Holy Angel and Ajora have it. You can't safely kill an Reraised Ultima Demon or 700 damage Ulmaguest oh my god, and Haste is just evil otherwise.
-Grand Cross is the demons. Both Altimas have it. One clocktick? Seriously? Better spread out.

And of course they have fine damage in general, even Ajora with her super-high-faith Non-charge Ultima.

I pull out the Chantages for this one. Initially I have one on Yulie and one on Meliadoul and I still lose! So Raquel gets the third. I give Arnaud a second Perseus Bow and the Robe of Lords now that Yulie doesn't need the tankishness, so my entire party has either Safe+Shell or perma-Reraise, and everyone except Yulie has Haste (and none through the Setiemson any more).

Anyway, when trying to figure this fight out I look at the above list of problems. And I realise that the two biggest ones, MBarrier and Reanimate, both cost MP.

Yulie -> Oracle (White Magic)
Arnaud -> Oracle (Math Skill)
Meliadoul -> Light Robe

Yeah you should be able to see what's coming. MP damage, MP damage, MP damage. It takes just two Spell Absorbs from my teleporting mages to deal with Arch Angel's MP. As for the other two bosses? They're kind enough to stand together right when Mel is about to doubleturn both (okay slowing Altima may have been part of the reason). Two Magic Ruins and both have nothing. Meanwhile, Arnaud runs annoyance with Slow and Confuse on the demons to keep them from killing me, Jude mimcs Daravon to further neutralise demons. Raquel basically twiddeles her thumbs for the first few rounds, but once Reanimate is gone she can start carving things up. Life Drains also deal with the Altimas well, while Ajora gets all her equipment abused by Meliadoul (when I finally break both her armour and helmet, her mHP rises to about 2400, incidentally).

Cool little ultimate fight, I imagine different parties would have different ways of dealing with it. Nice way to show off the final boss for those who are too powerful for endgame, too. (I like LFT Altima.)

So, I still need to do the Kolliery, but as I've done it on another file I don't feel much need. What I do feel the need to do is put the Bervenia Volcano fight in its place. This is probably the last thing I'll do with this file.

Levels have risen dramatically with all the superfights, Raquel is now 79, most others are low 70's, with Yulie a bit lower still.

[Laggy]

So Ubersquire can now equip Knight Swords in all forms and his C4 form gains the ability to wear BAGS and PERFUMES

y/n

[metroid composite]

So Ubersquire can now equip Knight Swords in all forms and his C4 form gains the ability to wear BAGS and PERFUMES

y/n

Well...there's not even a change in making his C1 form able to equip Knight Swords--you can't get Knight Swords in C1.  (Well...okay maybe if you level up to the 90s, and find a random battle where someone has the Throw command you can catch a Knight Sword, but otherwise no).

His C2/C3 form could use Defender and nobody would really care, though sure, maybe someone would use it.  I see no harm in the change.

Perfumes for him in C4...my vote is actually no.  This would let you do "all five of my characters are wearing Chantage"--whereas before the maximum was 4 out of 5, and you always had the one vulnerable person.