LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)

[metroid composite]

I boo Squires getting Knight Swords on flavour reasons.

I'm kind-of inclined to agree, but I'm having a hard time convincing Laggy (his argument being that Squires are the closest class to Knights thematically).

They're solid, although I'm not sure how much I'll use them because they're boring.

I dunno about boring--Yell is fairly interesting the times I've seen it in action; Heal can do stuff that nothing else in the game can do like cure Death Sentence; Throw stone/Dash...are pretty unique...although we really need to get the ASM hack working to make them 100% knockback...

So...yeah, I don't know about boring; Basic Skill is certainly more interesting to me than Elemental.  Terrible, yes, it's pretty damn low on power.

I dunno, I feel like 5 move + competent stats is enough of a niche for them.

That's what I thought looking in from the abstract, but in-practice it's not that simple.

Move is great for physical attacks.  Move for skillsets...well the only noteworthy skillset moves which have less than range 3 are Draw Out and Life Drain (which...will sometimes go to Squire...but they do have other strong options).

Our second mistake was considering their stats in a vacuum.  For example, sometimes you want a fast magic user to, say, land spells on Ninjas at Yardow.  110 Speed, 110 MA, makes them tie Priests, so they should be competitive, right?  Nope.  ...The first hurdle we ran into was that: no, their MA is lower as they can't equip staves.  We fixed that with Giant Axe having MA+1.  Are they better now?  Well...frankly when we ran into this situation during practical gameplay it was "okay, so very similar stats, one of these classes has Raise, one of these does not."

It sort-of calls into question the traditional FFT design of "carriers have good stats and bad skillsets"--I mean this works in original FFT because Wizards have 150 freaking MA, and the best weapon type and equipment to support that in the game.  LFT Squire stats...just aren't that good, and flavour limits how much we can sensibly up the stats (Squires should be weaker than Knights and slower than Ninjas, etc).

[Just Another Day]

The biggest problem I have here is conceptual.  Squires already have Crossbows--it doesn't feel like they should get Longbows, because Longbows take a lot of expertise, and Crossbows are the weapon even a trainee can use.

Upon further reflection I have decided I agree with you. It helps to think as longbows as one of the most specialized weapon-types in the game (available to only one class, no Equip skill), even if they're available to a Chapter One job.

Actually, I have the same feelings about about Knight Swords.  In fact, between Squire and Geo it kinda feels like thematically Geo should be the Knight Sword users out of these two.  Hell, Agrias would love such a change, as she can't use the Squire class but can use the Geo class.  The problem I see here is balance implementation--Squire would basically have to out-stat Geo to account for the blatantly worse equipment, and then Geo would not be very competitive until its equipment rolled in.  (Granted, Knight Swords don't bother me as much as Longbows, because...what exactly is a Knight Sword and how does it differ from a regular sword?  It's not like it's a two-handed sword or anything).

It's funny how our impressions of the classes differ ^_^ I've always thought of Geos as peasant-weapon types; even normal swords feel a bit like they're pushing the sophistication barrier, and Knight Swords feel that much less appropriate. To me, anyhow.

Whereas Squires are just Knights in training; particularly by the time you actually get your first Knight Sword, they should be more than capable of using them (given that a Knight Sword is just, well, yeah, a bigger-than-average sword).

Rods do really embody the rough design we're going for with Squires (good at using skillsets, doesn't necessarily have a great physical, though they can have a decent physical).  And yeah, there's really no balance issue with Rod+Squire (after all, Squires eventually get Rune Blade, which is better than the best available rod).  Last I checked, Laggy had thematic concerns with Rods, though (it's not like sticks, which sound pretty sensible on Squire).

Which...we've been working around this by slowly slipping Rod-like effects onto Squire weapons (MA+1 Axe, Flame Whip strengthening fire).

One does worry about passing Priest as a magic carrier (with the obvious caveat that White Magic is much much much better than Basic Skill) on the balance side of the ledger.

On the thematic side, it seems to me that by balancing their Attack stats you've implied that Squires are a magic/physical class, and thus thematically the basic magic weapons (at the very least) feel appropriate. I think of Sticks and Books as kind of the magic-tree equivalent of Flails and Axes (not signature to any class, oddball formulae and irregular availability), which is another reason why they feel right to me.

Another thing I've been thinking about on the Squire as carrier side of the ledger is that, moreso than any other non-Mime class, Squire JP is worthless; you get a bunch of it for free regardles, and it's not like there's much in there to spend it on anyhow, and in particular no big-ticket items at all. So any non-ultimate endgame setup based in Squire will have to accept that it's not really advancing job- or ability-wise as it would in most other classes.

[Just Another Day]

It sort-of calls into question the traditional FFT design of "carriers have good stats and bad skillsets"--I mean this works in original FFT because Wizards have 150 freaking MA, and the best weapon type and equipment to support that in the game.  LFT Squire stats...just aren't that good, and flavour limits how much we can sensibly up the stats (Squires should be weaker than Knights and slower than Ninjas, etc).

Wizards also have a real workhorse skillset, middling though black magic may be. Basic skill is, yes definitely, interesting and versatile, but it's not like you can build a character around throwing stones and curing stop. You need a useful secondary to be baseline useful. Whereas Wizards, you start with a character with retarded MA and the ability to spray good multitarget damage all over the field and build from that. So yes, you can add an even better attack skillset (Summon, Draw-Out), or a support or healing secondary or Math Skill or whatever, but you're starting with a skillset that will be constantly useful pretty much no matter what.

Plus, on the JP thing I was thinking about Squires, there's always _something_ to buy in Wizard, be it better differently elemented explosive spells or Magic Attack Up or even Counter Magic for Quick twinkery, but you're basically never going to run out of things to buy.

[OblivionKnight]

SO, when will the stat topic update come?

Also, I'm semi-interested in trying this, if I can get it to work on Vista.  Maybe I'll do that.

[metroid composite]

Plus, on the JP thing I was thinking about Squires, there's always _something_ to buy in Wizard, be it better differently elemented explosive spells or Magic Attack Up or even Counter Magic

Well...okay, but what makes sense on Squires?  For all that I don't want to toss them 300 JP abilities because guest spillover gets you about 600 Squire JP for free and then everyone has it.  But...a 2,000 JP ability?  Sure, they could do that.

The problem is that it's really hard to design Squire abilities, let alone expensive ones.

Expensive Movement: Umm...well Teleport makes no sense on a Squire.  I guess they could steal Move+3, which...would actually make sense seeing as they have the most move.  Probably increase the price to reflect the fact that it's not an end-of-the jobtree skill anymore, though.

Expensive Reaction: Blade Grasp is...thematically probably Ninja rather than Samurai, but clearly in that field.  Auto Potion is clearly Chemist.  Abandon...Squires have nothing tying them to evasion, right down to the no shield and 5% front evade.  MP Switch...uhh...seems a bit to mystical (you hurt my energy and not my body!)  Damage Split...dunno how a trainee can really justify that one.  Hammedo...definitely makes the most sense on a martial artist.

Expensive Support: Non Charge makes so much sense on Calc.  For all that we've opened up Squire to magical, it's not thematically that magical, so Short Charge/MAU don't feel right.  Two Swords...really feels like it should be on a class with Two Swords.  Concentrate...does make the most sense on the marksman class.  I guess they could have Attack Up, but Attack Up isn't that great (boosts physical attacks...though often less than other supports, Punch Art...though less than Martial Arts, and swordskills...though that doesn't help generic squires at all).

Expensive Skills:
I can see upgrades to existing Squire Skills; For instance, let's say a Yell-like move boosting ally-only by PA+1/MA+1/Speed+1.

Beyond that...well...what do Squires do?  From Wikipedia...

The typical duties of a squire included:
    * Carrying the knight's armor, shield, and sword,
    * Holding any prisoners the knight takes,
    * Rescuing the knight should the knight be taken prisoner,
    * Ensuring an honorable burial of the knight in the event of his death,
    * Replacing the knight's sword if it broke or was dropped,
    * Replacing the knight's horse with a new horse or the squire's should the horse be injured or killed,
    * Dressing the knight in his armor,
    * Carrying the knight's flag,
    * Protecting the knight if needed,
    * And taking care of his needs.

* Carrying the knight's armor, shield, and sword,
I'm not inclined to make Squire an armor class.

    * Holding any prisoners the knight takes,
Umm...I guess this is an argument for a Don't Move ability on Squire?

    * Rescuing the knight should the knight be taken prisoner,
Makes me think of Fire Emblem Rescue, which lets you move allies around.  Not sure we can really represent that in FFT mechanics.

    * Ensuring an honorable burial of the knight in the event of his death,
Well...I'm picturing a move called honourable burrial that turns a corpse instantly into a crystal.  Really hard to do, and not that powerful.

    * Replacing the knight's sword if it broke or was dropped,
    * Dressing the knight in his armor,
Essentially Equip Change except you use it on allies; would be cool, but hard to implement, and not especially powerful, though niches (two character combo that lets you shoot with Stone Gun round 1?)

    * Replacing the knight's horse with a new horse or the squire's should the horse be injured or killed,
Summoning Chocobos out of thin air would be cool, but...no: sprite limit.

    * Carrying the knight's flag,
Ummm....

    * Protecting the knight if needed,
Umm...this would translate into ability to give an ally Protect/Shell, I guess?  Would be singletarget, and worse than Kiyomori, but I could see it....

    * And taking care of his needs.
What does a Knight need? 
Needs to not be statused.  (Squires cure status already)
Needs to get freaking turns.  (Some kind of Quick effect?  Granted, they do have Yell).
Needs to hit (unfortunately the only way to swing that would be add: Transparent).
If, say, the Knight has white magic for raise, which is common in LFT, needs to hit raise (some kind of Faith effect?)
And may run out of MP for raise (Some kind of MP restoration?)
Needs to get closer to the enemy (Throw Stone is already the best available help).
Needs to block enemies, notably breaks (Umm...I believe we tried and failed to add defending status to an ally).

Granted, none of these currently exist, and would all need to be stolen from existing moves (and there's problems with names not making any sense).

[Just Another Day]

Oh, no, sorry, I wasn't saying that I thought Squire should get a big ability or something (not that it's necessarily a terrible idea in the abstract, but seems like it's the sort of thing that's probably more trouble than it's worth) more that it's a core... disadvantage, I guess, of the class, that there's relatively little to purchase in it, and one not really shared by even carriers (like Wizard and Ninja) with relatively little development potential. Closer to Geomancer, I guess, although even Geomancer has Attack Up to save for, and a bit more room for rounding out Elemental.

So even if you make Squire a really great carrier (which it would probably be with its current stats and huge equipment versatility), it will have the balancing disadvantage of not really getting you anywhere new ability-wise (e.g. is boring, as DHE puts it). From a game design perspective, I don't think this is a bad thing, indeed, I suspect it gives you some leeway to make Squire pretty good without having to worry that it will upstage classes that keep giving useful JP.

[Bardiche]

So I just arrived at the Collier Battle with the RPGDL cast. My only save is right before this point, so suffice to say I won't be playing LFT for a while anymore.

;_; God, the horrible rape. Was... was Reis so unbalanced you had to throw THIS at players?

[Laggy]

>_>

Did you miss the part where it's mentioned that the Colliery sidequest was turned into basically a series of superfights?

[metroid composite]

From a game design perspective, I don't think this is a bad thing, indeed, I suspect it gives you some leeway to make Squire pretty good without having to worry that it will upstage classes that keep giving useful JP.

In a vacuum, yes.

In practice, we're pushing up against flavour limitations.  I mean, Laggy and I were discussing how in original FFT Squire could...honestly get away with 120/120/120/120/120.  As far as physical setups go...Ninja has 120 speed, 122 PA, 70 HP, and innate Two Swords; 50 HP mult for innate Two Swords seems like a reasonable trade.  For magic...versus Wizard, Wizard has 25% more MA, to compete with 20% more speed...except mages often want to be slower than their opponents.

Now granted, Ninja/Wizard have been nerfed in LFT, but this gives an idea of the target competitive stats.  Now compare to flavour limitations:

Speed: Squires...there's no indication that they're particularly slow; at the same time, 120 would be tied with Ninja for the fastest thing ever, which...there's no flavour indication Squires are insane speed either.

PA: currently, in chapter 1, Squires are 5 PA, Knights are 6 PA--this feels right (Knights are Squires after training).

MA: Okay, opening up MA for them--cool.  Giving them more MA than PA, though, would be really weird.

HP: They could gain a little here, but not a lot; they're not thematically ultratanks.

MP: Not a lot of wiggle room here; +20 MP would make them the best MP in the game (which...is kinda weird for a class whose skills don't use MP, not to mention a class which aspires to be a sword-swinging Knight).  I guess there's some weak theme arguments for their being gamebest MP (Squires bear provisions!)  This is not really immediately intuitive, though, and the concept would be better expressed by Squire handing out rations through an ability rather than just using them all personally.

[Talaysen]

;_; God, the horrible rape. Was... was Reis so unbalanced you had to throw THIS at players?

I wish Reis was that unbalanced (Laggy make it happen).

I figured the fights were just like that for fun.  Which they are.  Painful at times, but fun.

[metroid composite]

I wish Reis was that unbalanced (Laggy make it happen).

Laggy's already made Reis hit 999 HP by level 63 (at which point if she sets Martial Arts she will deal 840 damage.  Alternatively she could use the 10-hit Holy Bracelet with MAU and deal 880 per hit).

I dunno--this isn't the first call I've heard for "Reis needs more buffing", but I'm still really not seeing the need. >_>

[Just Another Day]

In a vacuum, yes.

In practice, we're pushing up against flavour limitations.  I mean, Laggy and I were discussing how in original FFT Squire could...honestly get away with 120/120/120/120/120.  As far as physical setups go...Ninja has 120 speed, 122 PA, 70 HP, and innate Two Swords; 50 HP mult for innate Two Swords seems like a reasonable trade.  For magic...versus Wizard, Wizard has 25% more MA, to compete with 20% more speed...except mages often want to be slower than their opponents.

Now granted, Ninja/Wizard have been nerfed in LFT, but this gives an idea of the target competitive stats.  Now compare to flavour limitations:

Speed: Squires...there's no indication that they're particularly slow; at the same time, 120 would be tied with Ninja for the fastest thing ever, which...there's no flavour indication Squires are insane speed either.

PA: currently, in chapter 1, Squires are 5 PA, Knights are 6 PA--this feels right (Knights are Squires after training).

MA: Okay, opening up MA for them--cool.  Giving them more MA than PA, though, would be really weird.

HP: They could gain a little here, but not a lot; they're not thematically ultratanks.

MP: Not a lot of wiggle room here; +20 MP would make them the best MP in the game (which...is kinda weird for a class whose skills don't use MP, not to mention a class which aspires to be a sword-swinging Knight).  I guess there's some weak theme arguments for their being gamebest MP (Squires bear provisions!)  This is not really immediately intuitive, though, and the concept would be better expressed by Squire handing out rations through an ability rather than just using them all personally.

Definitely can't disagree with any of those. Moreover, it does feel thematically right to me for Squires to be above average at everything, but awesome at nothing (even 5 Move when none of the mobile classes have that feels a bit strange, though not unbearably so and I understand the balancing concerns). This is why I like giving them equipment options, and why I like things along the lines of what the two of you have been doing with the Flame Whip. Feels like a way to improve them without running up against flagrant thematic incongruities.

Of course, which weapons they should get seems like a point of discussion I'm less sure than I was a couple days ago about the mass equipment drop (there's no particular reason why they shouldn't get Spears, but I don't see a strong game or flavour reason why they should), but think it would definitely make them an interesting and cool character (and stay in keeping with the generalist trainee thing, and not step on any more Equip skills' toes) to give them Rods, Staves and Books. I don't think Knight Swords are a bad idea either; Knights have plenty of other strong points now, and by the point in the game Knight Swords show up I don't feel like it's terribly against their flavour either (note that it never felt weird that Ramza got them, and we're definitely drifting genero-Squire towards his class).

....

Reis sounds badass. This makes me happy.

[Talaysen]

I dunno--this isn't the first call I've heard for "Reis needs more buffing", but I'm still really not seeing the need. >_>

Well I haven't actually got Reis yet.  And doesn't Holy Bracelet have like a crappy chance of hitting due to huge radius + randotargetting?

[Laggy]

Rods, Staves, and Books just have a magic-oriented bent that I both don't see Squires thematically having nor am I inclined to emphasize them as a magic carrier even more (Geo already feels like it does that adequately, to me, and while this would make it competitive with it I'd rather focus on the physical aspect of Squires - they're knights-in-training, after all, not wizards-in-training. Sticks felt like a fair compromise to let Squires do SOMETHING with their MA stat + made perfect sense as a weapon thematically, since they're basically quarterstaves.) Rods and staves are clearly mage implements. Books are for the studious and academic, which Squires decisively don't feel like - they're training, not studying. (Gameplay-wise, they would also be the least interesting - with crossbows and sticks both around, the PA/MA mix and odd range would generally be inferior.)

[metroid composite]

(Gameplay-wise, they would also be the least interesting - with crossbows and sticks both around, the PA/MA mix and odd range would generally be inferior.)

Lionel:
Cross Bow: 6 WP
Battle Bamboo: 7 WP
Battle Dictionary: 10 WP

Lesalia:
Poison Bow: 7 WP
Iron Fan: 9 WP
Monster Dictionary: 12 WP

Chapter 4
Gastrifitis: 10 WP
Octagon Rod: 12 WP
Papyrus Plate: 16 WP

Assuming you twink for damage, they will generally outdamage crossbows, and be outdamaged by sticks (seems reasonable--range 2, 3, 4 and such).  If you instead twink for speed/HP/MP/movement, however, or have the wrong gender for the stick/x-bow you want to use, then books become the most damaging option.

So...they're good.  Dunno if they're the right gameplay direction for Squire (rods are a much better fit for "use this class for the secondary moreso than their attack command", and books do make daggers not even really have a niche on Squire: even if you're speed twinking, the fact that daggers use speed isn't -quite- enough to make up for the WP gap between daggers and books).

Well I haven't actually got Reis yet.  And doesn't Holy Bracelet have like a crappy chance of hitting due to huge radius + randotargetting?

Well...yes, the idea with Reis is that her moves are crappy, but then you give her any of a variety of generic skillsets and WTF Hax.  Elemental from Reis at that level (63) is...what, 400 damage with 108 gems MAU?

I still won't say no to 880 damage 10 hit Holy Bracelet, though--find a clump of 5 enemies, and you'll probably kill a couple of them.

[Tomiz]

I recently completed the deep dungeon and have realized a few things. Idk if it was intended, but non-charge (9999 jp support ability from the calculator) doesn't work with charge. I could see it being broken if it worked, but I wish I knew they weren't compatible before I spent several lvls with a male knight unlocking calculator and non-charge. I figured the levels spent in caster classes was a fare trade for the incredibly short-charge, but I what I ended up with was a lvl 40 char that kind of sucked at everything because of his wide range of ability that didn't augment each and his unspecialized, shitty stat growth. also, if you buy non-charge the game doesn't take the 9999 jp from you, and you are free to buy the other calculator abilities. saves you ~4000 jp if you buy short-charge first with this method.
After looting the deep dungeon I didn't come up with a robe of lords. I am pretty sure I didn't get a phoenix down accidentally (I'll even admit to save stating before each move-find just to be sure). Is there one in the beowulf side-quest, or what? I noticed that that one sorcerer, keli- something or something, had one but had maintenance also. was it possible to steal this one?
I have done everything except the beowulf story line and the final area. I've been playing through with a group of generics and ramza. ramza is 2 knight-sword wield bad ass as usual, 2 melee centric males (that I replaced with two females once I remembered the glory of perfumes) and 2 caster females.  everyone’s got blade grasp, move +3 (move+mp on casters if not an oracle).
what I've found amazing was using a samurai with attack up. this puts his damage through the roof. not sure if it is a problem with the way two hand stacks with attack up, but I was getting 500+ dmg at lvl 30 stacking +pa gear.
casters with non-charge are even more hax. got a caster set up with black and white magic, and one set up with summoning and ying yang or time, depending on situation. its hilarious crazy doing a insta-bahamut, holy/flare/death, or game changing quick at the right time.
The single most game breaking thing I've found is stacking non-charge and the faith rod on a character that knows death. can you say instant cast, 100% chance of death from the other side of the battlefield? probably pray-faith has the same affect, but I didn't realize this until after getting the faith rod.
I love what you guys did to the deep dungeon. some of the encounters are just off the wall (4 of the zodiac bosses? or 2 altimas and 6 ultima demons?). I ran into 2 female calculators, 1 female wiz, and 1 female summoner on VOYAGE. I decided to invite the 4 because I liked their gear at the time and was curious of their stats compared to my casters. what I found was that all 4 of them had better MA that my casters by 2-3 each when all characters were compared naked +- 5 lvl from 40. the two calculators were the best overall, comparing mp, ma, and speed by 1?! I don’t know how these chars were the gods they were, but I replaced my 2 casters.
The mod is sweet, I hope you guys update it again because I’d definitely play through it again.

[Just Another Day]

nomnomnom weekend LFT. Salamander is awesome.

(@ Tomiz: Charge never worked with Time Mage's Short Charge, which always struck me as vaguely disappointing in the normal game. That said, the skillset is better now, and WTFBBQ broken if it worked with Non-Charge, so all for the best I suppose.)

[OblivionKnight]

Hasn't anyone fought the 11 dancers of doom?  Bah!

[Excal]

I'm sure we will when we get there in a few months, OK.

[Tomiz]

thats lame. you would think skills like short charge and non charge would affect charge.

[Excal]

Eh, I thought so when I was learning the game too.  But really, all that means is that if you ever get your hands on No-Charge, then you just got yourself a shiny new Charge+20 command to replace physical attack.  Quick Charge, which is the best you can get in Vanilla is at least still sane, but, yeah.  Charge =/= the charge times for spells, and not just in this regard, as you can't move while using the skillset (knockback wrecks it) while anything else that charges besides Jump gets to move however it likes.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yeah. Note that charge-reduction abilities additionally do not affect Jump, Dance, or Sing, which similarly do not behave quite like normal charged moves.

[metroid composite]

I'd be okay with short charge/non charge working with the Charge command.  The command that really can't be made to work like that is Dance/Sing (well...non charge, at least; short-charge would be alright).

However the way Charge works is hard-coded into the abilities themselves.  If there's a way to change it, we haven't figured it out yet.

Oh, one thing that you could have checked before getting 9999 Calc JP: Calcs have innate non-charge, so you could have tried using Charge+1 in the calc class and noticed that it's not instant.  But yeah, I agree that not working with charge is unintuitive, and if I could change this, I would just to make it more intuitive (balance?  Pfft, it costs 9999 JP and makes you use a skillset with no variety).

[Just Another Day]

Good point. It's not like instant Charge +20 is in any way more broken than, say instant Bahamut or Meteor, and that's without the skillsets backing those two up which also benefit.

[Talaysen]

Make Short Charge work with Sing/Dance too!  Please?

...why are you looking at me like that?