Author Topic: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)  (Read 455720 times)

metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #575 on: July 28, 2009, 06:51:47 PM »
Edit - How would you have accomplished capping the speed break at minus a set ammount of speed then I am wondering?

We'd give different amounts of equipment to different zodiacs (adjusting their base HP if we give them Thief Hats).  Note: you can't check the equipment of zodiacs, so this wouldn't really be visible from the player side.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 06:57:25 PM by metroid composite »

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #576 on: July 28, 2009, 07:21:44 PM »
I definitely think protecting the Zodiacs somewhat from Speed Break is a good move.

I... guess there are other, better setups for dealing with them?  More out of curiosity than anything - what are those setups?  Two-swords speed break effectively ends the battles against at least Queklain and Velius in two actions, maybe three if you have bad luck on a front/side break and only hit 0-1 times.  I can see how you might be able to kill Queklain in two actions, but you'd have to do something like 300 damage per hit with two swords, or 500-600 damage per hit without, to drop Velius in as little time.  (How many HP does Velius have now, anyway?  1,200 or so?)

At least in my (relatively low-level, I suppose) playthrough, I couldn't have come close to enough damage to kill Velius in as few actions as it took to defeat him with breaks.  Plus, those actions came off of ninjas, who have extremely high speed and speed-twinking options to begin with.
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metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #577 on: July 28, 2009, 11:12:38 PM »
I... guess there are other, better setups for dealing with them?  More out of curiosity than anything - what are those setups?

If you have four people with Life Drain, that tends to immediately end a number of Zodiac fights since each one deals 25% of their health.  (Not Queklain because he has countermagic and drains back).  Math Skill with Reraise tends to be a bit unfair against Zodiacs, because it doesn't matter if you hit the zodiac monster with Reraise.

Quote
Two-swords speed break effectively ends the battles against at least Queklain and Velius in two actions,

Not especially--Speed Break is -1, Two Sword Speed Break is -2.  Two of those against Queklain drop him to 5 speed, which is still functional (fast members of your party will sometimes doubleturn him, but he'll go about even with slow members like Knights and Summoners).  Over the first three turns if there's only one speed breaker, he will actually average more like 7 speed (by the time he's speed broken the first time, he's already gained a lot of CT toward turn 2, so will get his second turn sooner than a speed 7 person would; similarly with turn 3).

There's also the open question of whether you'd be better just dealing damage.  If you have five people in the party who all deal about 100 damage, he kills one first turn, the other four attack for 100+100+100+100 = 400, he kills another one second turn, the remaining three attack for 100+100+100 = 300 (700 total) and win.  If one of these people is instead not doing damage and Two Swords speed breaking, however, it goes on till turn 3; he's slower, so he might not get his third turn, but this isn't guaranteed.

As far as Velius goes, if you're speed breaking him, you need to also kill the demons, so it's not JUST the two-three actions of speed breaking Velius.  There is the alternative strategy of "don't interact with the demons, just kill Velius" (the demons have about 600 HP between them; Velius is 1000 HP).

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not implying "speed breaking is weak against Zodiacs"--it's definitely strong.  However, I tend to see it as one among a variety of good strategies, as opposed to the obvious one strategy to use.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 11:14:45 PM by metroid composite »

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #578 on: July 29, 2009, 02:55:58 AM »
Also neat.  Very nice.
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #579 on: July 29, 2009, 07:07:03 AM »
I thought it was determined that zodiac status prevented HP gains from equipment entirely?

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #580 on: July 29, 2009, 07:54:07 AM »
I thought it was determined that zodiac status prevented HP gains from equipment entirely?

???

Tested real quick to be sure.  They give HP bonuses as normal (just the bonuses aren't multiplied by 10).  So the 1 HP zodiaced Lancer with full armor I just fought had about 240 HP.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #581 on: July 29, 2009, 08:03:07 AM »
Ahh, okay.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #582 on: July 29, 2009, 08:16:55 AM »
Random suggestion: Reflecting on the Breaks, why not make them Zodiac subject? The fact that they're not is a strange thing about them right now - they're a "free lunch" in that you can use them to destroy someone who is largely ineffective against you. FFT doesn't have many PC-available offensive moves that ignore Zodiac (Dance, Item vs. undead, and certain Limits are pretty much it?) and Battle Skill probably doesn't deserve to be elevated to their company. This also puts a slight leash on its ability to boss slay (no greater than the one on Life Drain, granted). I dunno if Battle Skill's specific coding prevents this, but something along the lines of what Stigma Magic used to be (something near 100% at default, but still fluctuates with zodiac) seems reasonable. And this should work by making the K values of Battle Skill 80+ (depending on where you want the base to be) and using the old formula, from my reading of the BMG.

Re Mr. Cranbud's concerns about Speed Break, well, I guess my issue here is it's always been this good a move against Zodiacs. Yeah, it used to miss, but it also used to be Speed -2 instead of -1... the average performance was actually higher because its hit rate was over 50% (except in cases of bad zodiac, which I am all for changing). This didn't strike me as widely considered to be broken against zodiacs. Effective, sure, but not broken, and I think that's where it remains. It is -good-, mind, and people are more likely to see it in LFT than FFT because both Battle Skill and Knights themselves are more worth using in the first place (whereas in FFT, Speed Breaking bosses was almost the entirety of the skillset's use, along with perhaps Magic Breaking them). Though, to be fair, it's easier to get Two Swords, via Thief, which matters a notable amount for Queklain at least.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #583 on: July 29, 2009, 08:33:26 AM »
Random suggestion: Reflecting on the Breaks, why not make them Zodiac subject? The fact that they're not is a strange thing about them right now - they're a "free lunch" in that you can use them to destroy someone who is largely ineffective against you. FFT doesn't have many PC-available offensive moves that ignore Zodiac (Dance, Item vs. undead, and certain Limits are pretty much it?) and Battle Skill probably doesn't deserve to be elevated to their company. This also puts a slight leash on its ability to boss slay (no greater than the one on Life Drain, granted). I dunno if Battle Skill's specific coding prevents this, but something along the lines of what Stigma Magic used to be (something near 100% at default, but still fluctuates with zodiac) seems reasonable. And this should work by making the K values of Battle Skill 80+ (depending on where you want the base to be) and using the old formula, from my reading of the BMG.

I'm really not fond of "stigma magic percentages" kind of effects.  From the player side it's confusing "this is usually 100%, what gives??"  Even from a twinking standpoint it's kinda weird--so you get punished for being bad zodiac, but you don't get rewarded for being best zodiac?  It's much more egregious on Stigma Magic than it would be on Battle Skill, mind you (at least you can check percentages with Battle Skill and already dealt with evasion; Stigma Magic previews self-only -_-).

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #584 on: July 29, 2009, 08:44:07 AM »
I never had any trouble adjusting to the fact that the normally 100% Blind can drop below that against bad zodiac, so yeah, Battle Skill doesn't bother me there (especially since, as you note, you can preview the move). The "there's no reward for good zodiac" is a point. I dunno how much that bothers me. The parallel I'm drawing is Threaten... if you have K=90 on the stat breaks, the effect will be identical, and will also get the player quickly used to the fact that the attack isn't 100% hit (they will hit at 96% on a Level 1 Knight).

I dunno, does Threaten bother you as is? Personally I think it would bother me more if it was fixed 100%, but this is a design choice and I can see going either way.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #585 on: July 30, 2009, 04:33:49 AM »
Mmmm. As I said earlier to you, Laggy, go ahead and revoke my current choice of Summoner in Izlude fight; I'm thinking... well, mm. I'll get back to you, I may ask for my cameo in a DEEP DUNGEON RANDOM fight. Iunno.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #586 on: July 30, 2009, 06:01:27 AM »
Small comment: I was considering running a PvP tournament running the LFT patch. Would you be interested in any feedback or not really? The patch doesn't really seem intended for PvP, but giving every class a use definitely makes it more interesting in my eyes for team building and such. I didn't know if you guys would care about any observations made or if it'd be irrelevant for your purposes. (I'm guessing I'll get about 100 complaints about Battle Skill from the participants <_<)

As a side note, any estimated date on the next patch update? I've been itching to do a new playthrough but if a new patch is coming I'd just wait.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #587 on: July 30, 2009, 09:39:13 AM »
I'll probably hammer out an update within the next couple of weeks. It's mostly a lot of minor item tweaks, plus some fight changes (mainly in C4 and zodiacs).

PVP was.... about the farthest thing in my mind when I was designing the classes patch-wise but hearing about it would be fascinating, sure. >_> I can't imagine Battle Skill would be of much use in it, though, seeing as it's evasion subject (which means both Blade Grasp and Abandon pretty much laugh at it.)
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #588 on: July 30, 2009, 10:10:04 AM »
Concentrate Ninja/Thieves with Battle Skill can do fine, so long as they're willing to equip it.  That second hit will be guaranteed, and if you're after a specific piece of equipment, that'll be all you need.  Of course, this just increases the worth of Hamedo in relation to those two, so this may be desirable.  (Also, Two Sword Samurai, something which has merit even before taking into account weapon breaking shenanigans)

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #589 on: July 30, 2009, 05:56:41 PM »
Yeah, I definitely wasn't expecting any of the feedback to be patch-changing, but I thought it could be interesting. Plus the tournament is being AI run anyway so it should be amusing for a whole bunch of other reasons too. I'll let you know how it goes.

Edit: Just applied the new patch today, and Lightning Stab still seems to be adding Silence. Just a heads up.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 08:22:03 PM by Fuzzypickles »

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #590 on: July 31, 2009, 11:21:29 PM »
That's wierd.  I've definately seen it doing the Zombie thing.  Was it applied to a fresh FFT ISO?

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #591 on: August 03, 2009, 05:30:21 PM »
I must've done something stupid like loaded a state when I loaded it. It's working, my bad.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #592 on: August 04, 2009, 01:06:55 AM »
I never had any trouble adjusting to the fact that the normally 100% Blind can drop below that against bad zodiac,

Blind is normally about 88% against neutral zodiac and average enemy faith.

Quote
so yeah, Battle Skill doesn't bother me there (especially since, as you note, you can preview the move). The "there's no reward for good zodiac" is a point. I dunno how much that bothers me. The parallel I'm drawing is Threaten... if you have K=90 on the stat breaks, the effect will be identical, and will also get the player quickly used to the fact that the attack isn't 100% hit (they will hit at 96% on a Level 1 Knight).

I dunno, does Threaten bother you as is? Personally I think it would bother me more if it was fixed 100%, but this is a design choice and I can see going either way.

I honestly haven't paid attention to Threaten, since the main use for it is lowering your own brave (brave lowering shenanigans on enemies aren't that great).  Talk Skill is a bit weird, though, because it ignores evade and ignores reaction abilities and ignores faith...so a 100% accuracy Talk Skill just always works--no twinking involved.

Battle Skill doesn't lack for mechanics.  It even has more than one mechanic to think about (evasion, "weapon range").  Talk Skill, on the other hand does lack for mechanics, so it really can use an extra mechanic.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #593 on: August 08, 2009, 12:22:39 AM »
As a casual FFT player I strongly oppose adding the bothersome Zodiac mechanic to anything it was not on originally. >_>
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #594 on: August 08, 2009, 12:27:33 AM »
It was on Battle Skill originally, it just got removed. I don't like this because it means that knights can still rape the stats and equips of things that fail at hurting them. Whether or not you like it, zodiac is in the game, and in my opinion it becomes a more bothersome mechanic when it's no longer a double-edged sword and there are ways of avoiding it (besides Dance which is unfocussed anyway).

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #595 on: August 08, 2009, 01:39:42 AM »
Ehh...at the moment I'm less worried about compatibility twinking than I am about, say, equipping Rubber Shoes at Lionel (that's something that can easily be changed to bypass a hard fight; compatibility twinking is not).

For that matter, I'm not even convinced that taking less damage from a zodiac is a net positive.  On a Knight SCC (most likely place to abuse compatibility with breaks) you can heal damage with Ice Brand Ice Shield combo.  You CAN'T heal status, and the less damage you take, the more likely the AI will use status instead.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #596 on: August 08, 2009, 01:45:25 AM »
Worth noting that due to -1 WP to Ice Brand and innate Defence Up that Knights are much worse at healing each other before! SCC is still easier anyway I'm sure. <_<

Anyway, I wasn't thinking about it in terms of zodiacs (the demons), just more generally.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #597 on: August 09, 2009, 03:54:42 PM »
As far as generic enemies go, it would be cool if we could do something like...say their evasion was 40%.  Good zodiac would make that 30% against Battle Skill (*3/4) and bad zodiac would make that 50% against battle skill (*5/4).  I only know of two things the caster can do to multiply enemy evasion, though (Blind and Transparent).

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #598 on: August 13, 2009, 04:40:21 PM »
I know you guys mentioned earlier that you tried tweaking the AI to prevent them from using equipment breaks as often. Was anything else changed? I've been playing around with auto-battle lately and I've been seeing the AI make very... uncharacteristic moves. The AI is attacking characters that will die when another action resolves (ie: attacking a unit about to die from a Jump). They revive units that will die from a slow action as well. The second of these might occur in regular FFT, but I know the AI was usually decent about the former. Also, Sing/Dance. The AI uses a Dance but they are faster than the Dance so they get another action before it resolves. Instead of simply waiting... they start the Dance again causing an endless cycle where the Dance never resolves. Typically the AI is a bit more competent. I'm just wondering if these are all quirks I've never noticed before, or if you guys have any idea of changes that might've caused this?

Also, several enemy units have blank names. Dunno how exactly this one happened. Hmm.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #599 on: August 13, 2009, 04:41:52 PM »
Blank names are from deleted monster names, IIRC.
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