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Author Topic: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)  (Read 456572 times)

Laggy

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1275 on: June 08, 2010, 09:19:27 PM »
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

edit: fixed

Dragon move 0 -> 6 (HATE)

Chemist/Priest/Wizard/Time Mage/Summoner/Mediator/Oracle MA Growth 50 -> 45
Calculator/Bard MA Growth 50 -> 40
Mime MA Growth 40 -> 35

Cheer Up hit rate +255 -> +180

P.S. stop finding bugs :(
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 11:59:07 PM by Laggy »
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

Lord Ephraim

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1276 on: June 09, 2010, 10:55:10 AM »
P.S. stop finding bugs :(



And one of the flying morbols has the face sprite of the Aeris rape monk.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 11:01:05 AM by Lord Ephraim »

Tonfa

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1277 on: June 09, 2010, 12:08:35 PM »
That is an old version. Current one is working just as planned.
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metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1278 on: June 09, 2010, 03:34:02 PM »
Chemist/Priest/Wizard/Time Mage/Summoner/Mediator/Oracle MA Growth 50 -> 45
Calculator/Bard MA Growth 50 -> 40
Mime MA Growth 40 -> 35

o_O why change all of that so late?  It seems like that messes with a lot of balance (makes Geomancer/Squire/Samurai less attractive as magic users).  Some of that also...doesn't even make sense flavour-wise (why is Chemist good at magic?  They can't equip robes, have bad MA, have bad MP growth, and bad MP multiplier.  And they have one of the most thoroughly non-magical skillsets in the game--Thieves and Monks use MA more than Chemists do).

Earlier in development I'd be totally up for figuring out how to balance different MA growths, but it seems like a weird thing to start messing around with in a "complete" patch.



(If anything's bugging me for a fix right now it's more that Rafa/Malak have MP costs.  They don't need the nerf--and yes it's a noteable nerf given that Wizard Rafa is one of her best setups, where out-of-MP now shuts off both her skillsets.  Abilities that use MA don't automatically need MP costs (see: Draw Out, Elemental).  Abilities that charge don't automatically need MP costs (see: Charge, Jump).  So...not really seeing why they were nerfed).

SageAcrin

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1279 on: June 09, 2010, 04:02:06 PM »
I think you should give Orlandu's skills to Beowulf Boco.

Actually it would be kinda cool to see Boco have unique skills but since he doesn't have a unique class and I doubt another is laying around it's probably not feasible.
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Tonfa

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1280 on: June 09, 2010, 04:06:56 PM »
o_O why change all of that so late?  It seems like that messes with a lot of balance (makes Geomancer/Squire/Samurai less attractive as magic users).  Some of that also...doesn't even make sense flavour-wise (why is Chemist good at magic?  They can't equip robes, have bad MA, have bad MP growth, and bad MP multiplier.  And they have one of the most thoroughly non-magical skillsets in the game--Thieves and Monks use MA more than Chemists do).

Earlier in development I'd be totally up for figuring out how to balance different MA growths, but it seems like a weird thing to start messing around with in a "complete" patch.

While I disagree with growths being different among classes at all, anything to help Chemist's utterly sad growths is ok. Geomancer really doesn't need help either. The problem now is there are 8 classes that are completely dwarfed by other non-Mime classes growthwise, which is bad design.

Quote
(If anything's bugging me for a fix right now it's more that Rafa/Malak have MP costs.  They don't need the nerf--and yes it's a noteable nerf given that Wizard Rafa is one of her best setups, where out-of-MP now shuts off both her skillsets.  Abilities that use MA don't automatically need MP costs (see: Draw Out, Elemental).  Abilities that charge don't automatically need MP costs (see: Charge, Jump).  So...not really seeing why they were nerfed).

Truth is very powerful and it's a draw to use MP restoration in the lategame. I don't see a problem.
<Niu> If I ever see that Langfadood, i'll strangle him on sight
<Gourry> What, for making the game three times better?
<Gourry> And playable, at that?
<Niu> that lose the whole point of of L2!!!

Ranmilia

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1281 on: June 09, 2010, 04:16:40 PM »
Actually it would be kinda cool to see Boco have unique skills but since he doesn't have a unique class and I doubt another is laying around it's probably not feasible.

Yeah, Sage is right.  If only there was a unique yellow chocobo around who could do things other yellows couldn't.  make Sage inviteable!

jsh357

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1282 on: June 09, 2010, 04:53:41 PM »
While I disagree with growths being different among classes at all, anything to help Chemist's utterly sad growths is ok. Geomancer really doesn't need help either. The problem now is there are 8 classes that are completely dwarfed by other non-Mime classes growthwise, which is bad design.

Chemists do not need another reason to be good.  Phoenix Down is a borderline broken ability when combined with Throw Item, and Auto-Potion is pretty much over the edge.   They also get Guns, Move-Find Item, Elixir, Remedy, etc.  For a unit that you can get right at the start of the game, they are God Tier for sure.  I'm kind of confused about increasing their MA growth too, but I think Laggy wanted to make the mage classes more useful since physicals are still dominant. 

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1283 on: June 09, 2010, 05:39:46 PM »
They are?

(Sorry for the quip of a response, but... yeah, that's not my opinion at all.)

Unless you meant growth-wise, in which case I don't really care.

Also, if Bard's MA growth is going to be that good, then Dancer's PA growth should probably be raised as well. Not that this matters at all, really, but hey, symmetry!

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jsh357

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1284 on: June 09, 2010, 05:59:03 PM »
They are?

(Sorry for the quip of a response, but... yeah, that's not my opinion at all.)

Unless you meant growth-wise, in which case I don't really care.

Also, if Bard's MA growth is going to be that good, then Dancer's PA growth should probably be raised as well. Not that this matters at all, really, but hey, symmetry!

I also don't think physical characters are dominant (Well, maybe at late game) but Laggy seems to think so based on conversations I've had with him.  I'm not sure of the justification. 

Laggy

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1285 on: June 09, 2010, 06:04:22 PM »
Oh come on, a couple of points of MA (if that) by endgame if you level up in mage classes is not going to change balance or suddenly make Geo and Samurai not ideal mage carriers. Those concerns are grossly inflated. MA mults didn't get changed at all, only growths, addressing an earlier point that there's little incentive to level up in mage classes in theory (while the effect was very minimal in practice, there's no harm in at least throwing them a bone on paper.) Hell, the MA growth alterations are much more minor than the PA growth variation which you see on the physical side on the tree.

I agree Chemist didn't need to get better. Making people not get completely boned for growths early on (when they matter the most) where Squire looks like a far more attractive option in every way to get your first few levels is not really making Chemist any better except "it's okay to use them for your first few levels in C1 if you're going to use this char as a mage" (which is usually what you do).

The MP costs on the twins have been in for ages and they still get used way more than they did in vanilla, esp. Rafa. It's not a huge deal coupled with every other boost they got.
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metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1286 on: June 09, 2010, 07:39:30 PM »
I don't agree that there's no stat level up incentive to mage classes: MP growth exists, y'know.  If I was building, say, a Short-Charge Meteor character I'd already hardcore avoid all classes with bad MP growth.  (It could make a 20 MP difference, which is actually pretty relevant to Time Magic setups).

On it being a small MA difference...it's about 2 more MA at level 99.  About the difference between a 125 multiplier and a 140 mult, I guess?  So..not enormous, but enough that some players would be compulsive about it (particularly since...what abilities from non-mage classes can they not live without?  Maybe Draw Out?)

Laggy

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1287 on: June 09, 2010, 07:54:28 PM »
At level 99, sure. If people want to be compulsive they can. (Or they would just level up a Mime if they care that much. Which is fine by me!)

At normal endgame levels it's a 1 MA difference at most? Yeah, whatever, that's not moving the traditional mage carrier classes off their role anytime soon. The MP difference existed and is acknowledged, but I'm not buying that the 1-2 extra points in MA is somehow going to horribly throw off balance, because it just... isn't. It's way too minor. Saying it throws off Geo/Samurai/Squire is just o_O
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metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1288 on: June 09, 2010, 08:50:14 PM »
If people want to be compulsive they can.

This seems a bit inconsistent, though--remember discussions about Gained JP Up, where you decided that even if we reduced it to, for example, a 10% JP boost, that it still wasn't a good idea to include it, because some people would be compulsive and use it?

(Or they would just level up a Mime if they care that much. Which is fine by me!)

I don't have a problem with people levelling in Mime.  Here's the thing though: they lose something by levelling in Mime; the whole time they're in Mime, they aren't gaining JP.  It's a trade-off.  (On the opposite end of the spectrum, Chemist hands you fantastic abilities, and crap stat growth; also a trade-off).

Now compare this to, say, 40 MA growth calculator.  Plenty of people spend ages grinding in Calc for Mathskill (or even Non-Charge).  Calc is already giving you the best abilities in the game.  Now you're suggesting also giving them among the best stat-growths in the game.  Where's the trade-off?

And in a broader scope of the mage half of the job tree...what does a mage really sacrifice by never leaving that half of the job tree?  A couple of higher-HP, lower-MP carriers?  Maybe two skillsets they'd want as a mage (Draw Out and Dance) while maintaining easy access to...9 good skillsets?  At most a minor tradeoff.


(And as far as PA growths go...there's all of two generic skillsets that actually use PA to a significant degree--Punch Art and Jump.  You'll notice Monk has less impressive PA growth than other classes--again, a tradeoff.  Lancer...doesn't have a tradeoff; I might be worried about Lancer if people started complaining they were overpowered >_>).

Laggy

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1289 on: June 09, 2010, 08:55:08 PM »
If we wanted to actually fight compulsion all together I would create a version of the patch that has no growth variance whatsoever (and am actually considering this).

Gained JP Up is a poor parallel. The biggest issue of it was that it locked out a support slot for 95% of the game, which was terrible design. 45 MA growth over 50 MA growth is NOT locking people out of playing 50 MA growth classes. The comparison is not even close, and the scale of which you make out the issue to be is what I take issue with.

RE: Mage stuff. Yeah, those are valid points. I guess what I am trying to say is that this is, in effect, a really tiny boost to the mage side of the tree for aesthetic purposes (i.e. actual MA growth variance) and that doesn't bother me.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 09:04:53 PM by Laggy »
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metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1290 on: June 09, 2010, 09:08:20 PM »
Gained JP Up is a poor parallel. The biggest issue of it was that it locked out a support slot for 95% of the game, which was terrible design. 45 MA growth over 50 MA growth is NOT locking people out of playing 50 MA growth classes.

A Gained JP Up that was 10% bonus JP rather than 50% bonus JP would also not lock people out from using other support abilities.

Quote
The comparison is not even close, and the scale of which you make out the issue to be is what I take issue with.

What I take issue with is that I'm seeing a number of clear cases of poor design (lack of tradeoff) and...am not seeing how it in any way improves design.  (And note that a different set of MA growths might improve design!  I'm not saying MA growth uniformity is the way to go, just that...I'm not seeing the benefit to this distribution).

It's also possible that I'm overreacting because in the game industry, making such a sweeping change in a "final" product is a horrible horrible thing to do, to the point that bodily harm is threatened to get people to stop making big changes.

Laggy

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1291 on: June 09, 2010, 09:14:39 PM »
Then by all means, suggest an MA growth distribution that makes sense. I was trying to keep it very simple and very minor, but apparently no one's happy with that (and I stand by that it IS extremely minor).

Or, alternatively, we could just go with universalized growths across the board (sans Mime, which can be justified for reasons stated previously) and it'd probably make more sense.
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metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1292 on: June 09, 2010, 09:42:03 PM »
Or, alternatively, we could just go with universalized growths across the board (sans Mime, which can be justified for reasons stated previously) and it'd probably make more sense.

Before going to "universal except Mime" I'd try one step back from that.  Like...mostly universal, except Thief has speed growth, Monk has HP growth, Summoner has MP growth, Dancer/Bard have PA/MA growth.  Mime has everything growth.  All other growths are average.  (Or something like that).

This...doesn't entirely remove growths as something you might focus on, but at the same time still strongly encourages you to reach out into other classes for abilities.



Or...alternatively, same idea, but instead of "good in one" you could make it more like Pokemon natures (good in one, bad in another one).  EDIT: on further reflection...ehh...not actually feeling the "Pokemon natures" (or at least I'd want to avoid handing out "bad in speed." ever)

Quote
Then by all means, suggest an MA growth distribution that makes sense.

Maybe something like Mime 40, Bard 40-45, Wizard 45, Oracle can have bad (12) MP growth and 45 MA growth; I probably wouldn't touch TM/Summoner/Priest (abilities good already...and Summoner/Priest already have good growths in their own way).  Physical side, Thief/Lancer can be 55, Samurai can make some claim at 45 (as it'd needs 55 growth jobs to unlock it).  
« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 09:48:09 PM by metroid composite »

Tonfa

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1293 on: June 09, 2010, 09:47:05 PM »
A set of growth changes I theorycrafted up that would leave only complete class overshadowings growthwise (Mime excluded) being Squire losing to Geomancer and Chemist losing to Mediator. Which is thematic and fine in my book!

Dancer HP growth 10 -> 9
Chemist HP growth 12 -> 11
Bard MP growth 10 -> 9
Dancer PA growth 50 -> 45
Squire PA growth 50 -> 48
Oracle PA growth 60 -> 55
Time Mage MA growth 45 -> 43
Priest MA growth 45 -> 48
Archer MA growth 50 -> 48
Samurai MA growth 50 -> 48
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<Niu> that lose the whole point of of L2!!!

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1294 on: June 09, 2010, 09:57:02 PM »
This argument is totally borked. We're talking about a difference of 1-2 stat points over like 90 levels. Who cares? If the concern is that growth differences are going to bias people who don't understand how minor their impact is unnecessarily, then just flatten growths across the board and make the only differences between classes their mults and abilities.

If you don't want people to avoid certain jobs because it will screw up their character's ability to be a magic user FOREVER or whatever, just get rid of the potential for that to even occur.
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metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1295 on: June 09, 2010, 09:59:14 PM »
Bard MP growth 10 -> 9

Isn't Bard MP growth 20?  (If it's not, then the change isn't noted in the changelog >_>).  Otherwise...Tonfa's changes seem okay to me gameplaywise.  (Flavour-wise I'm not sure how I feel about Archers being one of the best fighters at MA growth).  Actually I think you could get rid of one more overshadowing by making Squires 48/48 (Squires are not allowed to be better in one stat than they are in the other!)

Tonfa

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1296 on: June 09, 2010, 10:16:53 PM »
(Flavour-wise I'm not sure how I feel about Archers being one of the best fighters at MA growth)

They get robes now, so it's giving them a slight nudge as a potential magic-user on the other end. They still have rock bottom tier MP growth, and them being at least better at magical aptitudes than THIEF makes a good deal of sense to me.
<Niu> If I ever see that Langfadood, i'll strangle him on sight
<Gourry> What, for making the game three times better?
<Gourry> And playable, at that?
<Niu> that lose the whole point of of L2!!!

Shale

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1297 on: June 09, 2010, 10:17:43 PM »
This argument is totally borked. We're talking about a difference of 1-2 stat points over like 90 levels. Who cares? If the concern is that growth differences are going to bias people who don't understand how minor their impact is unnecessarily, then fuck those people.

I like that you can't raise a character as a spellcaster for 20 levels and then turn around have no difference in their physical stats from somebody who was a Knight all game, even if it's not a big enough change to have any major impact in gameplay.
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Excal

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1298 on: June 09, 2010, 10:34:11 PM »
Wait...  FFT has class growth modifiers?

Or, in a more serious answer, I'm honestly not seeing what all the fuss is about.  As noted, stat growths tend to have slim to no difference in the final outcome of characters.  And honestly, I doubt 95% of people would either notice or care if they were removed entirely, given that you have a) no documentation of these things, leading to them requiring either an insane knowledge of the code or a FAQ to build around, and b) minimal gains even if you do aim specifically for abuse of these.

This is slightly different to JP+ where not only is this a specific ability which you can learn, but where equipping it gives you an immeadiate and noticable change to the amount of JP you rake in.  And where the end gain isn't some nebulous stat gains (in a game where there isn't really such a thing as base stats thanks to the fact that you're always going through a class filter) that can be made pretty much entirely moot through class/equipment selections, but your ability to learn skills, which is the lifeblood of the game.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (Final Release - Download here!)
« Reply #1299 on: June 09, 2010, 10:58:46 PM »
Hey guys, while I am all for arguing minor pointless things, but I am just going to reiterate Excal on this.

This shit is still horribly undocumented for the people that aren't crazy hardcore into FFT at a purely mechanical level and this patch is actually the kind of one that is balanced in such a way that it is a great play for people without that knowledge.

So the change is minor and the patch is awesome.  So fuck it, lets disco dance.
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