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Author Topic: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)  (Read 456415 times)

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1625 on: March 10, 2011, 11:25:25 PM »
Ok, additional considerations when it comes to new charge, specifically concerning good design with Short Charge.

The current charge ctrs were chosen fairly carefully without SC in mind:

1ctr: Charge+2: can pre-empt Haste 2/Life Drain/Moogle/Poison/Cure
2ctr: Charge+3: can pre-empt Fire/Ice/Bolt
3ctr: Charge+4: can pre-empt Damn near everything (as ctr 4 is overloaded)
4ctr: Charge+5: can pre-empt Paralyze/Stop/Bolt 3
5ctr: Charge+6: can pre-empt Bolt 4/Demi/Sleep/Cure 3
6ctr: Charge+7: can pre-empt Shiva/Ramuh/Ifrit
7ctr:
8ctr:
9ctr: Charge+10: doesn't pre-empt much of anything
...
15ctr: Charge+20: ultra slow

To some degree, you do care about every single one of these.  Thing is, when you get Short Charge it looks more like this:

1ctr: Charge+3 (Is your new Charge+2)
2ctr: Charge+5 (Is your new Charge+3)
3ctr: Charge+7 (Is your new Charge+4)
4ctr:
5ctr: Charge+10 (Is your new Charge+6)
6ctr:
7ctr:
8ctr: Charge+20 (no equivalent; closest is Charge+10 at 9ctr)

Two notes:

First, that 4ctr slot is kind-of empty.  This is where a Charge+8 or Charge+9 would be valueable.
Second, odd numbered charges are better for Short Charge--so for instance, a Charge+11 would be strictly better than a Charge+10 for Short Charge, as they reduce to the same ctr.  Doesn't mean we should or shouldn't use C+11 over C+10, it's just a balance lever we can fiddle with if we want to make SC Charge slightly better or worse.  (Short Charge would obviously prefer to have the sequence be +3, +5, +7, +9, +11, +13, +15, +17...but that would be extreme and silly).

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1626 on: March 11, 2011, 07:45:16 AM »
I motion that change the name of the skillset from Charge to Prime and use 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23.  We should change Archers to Optimus and have the class description be "Dies for your sins"
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1627 on: March 12, 2011, 01:40:25 PM »
Well, I just stole every worthwhile piece of equipment in the final colliery battle.
Then the demon killed Reis.
Welp.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1628 on: March 12, 2011, 01:49:13 PM »
>_______________< Been there before. If you're going to retry the fight, just swipe the items you can't poach (Mainly the genji gear)
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1629 on: March 12, 2011, 09:13:16 PM »
Finished the LFT aftergame. It's like normal FFT aftergame with the challenge (and speed) of the fights ratched up. You're under constant pressure and enemies love to sling status at you.

Notable skillsets:

Item- Is item and thus is Godlike. You have a pretty good supply of Elixirs at this point in the game and you will need them.
Battle Skill- I consider it superior to Mighty Sword in the DD overall. Magic Break is absolutely a must have, as most of the later fights have characters who can buff. Not only that, the FFT AI prioritizes buffing, so if you keep slapping someone dangerous with magic break, they will keep rebuffing instead of attacking or reviving. I used this to keep Alma and to a lesser extent Irius in check. Mind/Power are useful for slowing down the offense of certain fighters in a pinch- especially when they go to charge up some nasty spell like Zodiac or Meteor.  You really need to have this on a two sword fighter or an archer/gunner for full effect, though.
Math Skill-Instant+hits field. I didn't use this to balance out having Olan in the team, and I missed it.
Draw Out- Masamune, mostly. Instant 100% MT haste and regen? Yay.


About what you expect. Magic really needs calculator/non charge to be good, and that class is slow enough to have limited use in the DD.

PC Notes:
Godlike: Orlandu, Beowulf, Ramza [Olan]
Worth using: Malak
Eh: Meliadoul, Agrias, Reis, Mustadio   
Pass: Worker 8, Cloud, Rafa


Worker 8's too slow, Cloud and Rafa are reliant on charge moves. Meliadoul's got the godly stats, but the DD is more about blitzing than anything else. She also hates ruins having a charge time.  Agrias tapers off in the DD due to offense and speed woes. Knight is her best class for offense, and that's never a good sign. Reis can break a few obnoxious fights (Zalmo, is useful on END) which is something. Mustadio gets some use out of Math skil--zombie-seal evil and the awesome stats, but that is it.

Malak's use is entirely in taking advantage of his now awesome class and frog bombing. Innate two swords and equip katana makes him a very fast PC, and two swords means that he is an ideal user for Battle Skill. Frog bombing is as good as ever- it disables those fucking Ultima demons Altima has, which is nice. Olan's got the best stats in the games for books, and a metric fuckton more durability than the usual mediator/TM build there. Galaxy stop is borked enough that I chose not to use it outside of END and Nelveska. His physical damage was really high the entire time, the only person who eclipsed him was Cid, and not by much until the Chaos Blade.

Orlandu is offense, Beo is status, Ramza is your sacred slayer. Beo really benefits from the Genji equips being buffed (He loves that extra speed), but mostly, his skillset is a must have.

Equipment recommendations: Bump up Genji helmet and Grand helm's HP, and make the latter block slow. You really, *really* want to block slow and anything that rewards using a helmet over a thief hat is cool. Give Chiraiden a MA+1 boost; it's a pain in the ass to get and it's boring as a weapon as is.



Nelveska: I chose to get the rare equipment. Chicken didn't seem to work right on the Hydras (fuck). Getting to that point was an adventure- I used Galaxy stop here to slow down the birds and summoners. Malak speed broke worker while the rest handled the support. Getting the treaures mostly involved getting lucky and surviving Dark Whisper.  I had around 15 resets. I never did use the spear, but the Paladin Shield was useful in the DD.

Rudvich (DELTA):- Huge jump in challenge from the first two floors. Rudvich has excellent support, and they can reach you quickly. I chose to blitz this fight because of the worry about getitng screamed to death by the boss. This strategy went well enough, though I had a couple of resets from letting PC's crystalize.
Zalmo (VALKYRIES):. I had fits with this fight because I charged ahead and let myself get picked off piecemeal. This is a very good fight to hang back and let them come to you one at a time- especially when you can cause trouble by math skilling the hell out of them on the way.
Izlude (BRIDGE):- Total blitz fight. Malak is a must have here- Frog bombing is 100% ITE, and there are some evasion whores on the floor. You want Izzy to jump, as his physical is horrid death and he likes using equip breaks. It wasn't too hard a fight- my reset was from Izzy snapping something I couldn't replace.
Funeral (TIGER):-Needs to be reworked. Bards/Dancers are a joke at this point in the game and mimes can't mimic them now anyway.
Zodiacs (HORROR):-I got very lucky the first time I ran this fight. Hashy decided to keep spamming Torando, even after being MA nuked. The key to this battle is loading up on status protection and just taking them out one at a time.  The Zodiacs apply a lot of pressure, but shouldn't overwhelm you if you're careful with healing and status blocking. This was a surprisingly defensive fight (Most of the other late DD fights are straight blitz), and I had a lot of fun with this.

Tiny Ko Army (END):- FUCK. THIS. SHIT.
Wundertwins (END)- The fight where you should be grabbing the Chaos Blade/RoL. It's cake.

Altimas (END): FS Bag- Surprisingly not bad.  Altima will always use reanimate as long as someone has to be revived. The zodiac demons are definitely status bait- both Beo and Malak had a field day with status here. Had no real resets here. As I said above, you really should bring dispel here to lock down Alma.
END (Zodiac fight)- Hardest fight in the game by miles. The boss is has a shitload of status, is fast, and can hit you from anywhere. On top of that, you have a couple of fucking teleport 2 Bylboses to make sure life really sucks. You absolutely have to status out some of the support early, and find some way to slow down the bosses. The second Excalibur and Nagarock are nice to get, but aren't worth the pain of stealing unless you are really stubborn. (I did,b ut yeah). You have to disable the Knights early or else they will start snapping gear and augh. I ended up winning this by getting a lucky teleport/steal early to disable the excaliber knight.  Midgar zolom hurts, poison frog hurts, zodiac is a breather. Nothing new there. The Tiamats can also reach you early, which can result in horrid death.

Volcano- Straight up luck fight. The Delita knockoff tends to spam Mbarrier (YAY) instead of his damage moves. The big problem is surviving the opening oblivion's edge and the assault from the Behemoth. Cid could OHKO everything but the Delita knockoff which helped a bunch, yay  Chaos Blade.


Best designed: Zodiacs, Altimas
Needs fixing: Funeral
Hardest: END
Laggy must die: Tiny Ko Loop.

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Laggy

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1630 on: March 17, 2011, 12:15:16 AM »
Upcoming patch notes. This isn't out yet, but should be out at the end of the week.

Ultimately we decided to skip any ASM changes just because it's extraneous work at this point for something that's honestly already quite balanced and doesn't need more help or improvement.

Player Changes

- Squire base move dropped from 5 to 4.
- All crossbows except Bow Gun and Night Killer had their WP boosted by 1.
- Cross Bow Adds: Silence (25%)
- Hunting Bow Adds: Sleep (25%)
- Toad Rod now gives +3 PA (up from +2 PA)
- Genji Helm HP 130 -> 150
- Grand Helm HP 150 -> 200
- X-Potion cost 700 -> 2000 Gil

Monster Changes

Code: [Select]
Juravis Scratch Up Feather Bomb Beak Beaking Hamedo Gastrafitis
Steel Hawk Scratch Up Beaking Beak Dispose Hamedo Ultimus Bow
Cocatoris Scratch Up Feather Bomb Beaking Beak Hamedo Yoichi Bow

Bull Demon Shake Off Wave Fist Bizen Boat Mimic Titan Blade Grasp Kikuichimoji
Minitaurus Shake Off Gather Power Kiyomori Earth Slash Blade Grasp Holy Lance
Sacred Shake Off Wave Around Masamune Blow Fire Blade Grasp Mace of Zeus

- Blue Dragon no longer has Cannot Enter Water, now has Move in Water.
- Red Dragon no longer has Cannot Enter Water, now has Move on Lava.
- Ahriman speed mult raised from 95 to 135.
- Bull Demon speed mult raised from 107 to 137.

Other Changes

- Every location in the game has new, better Move-Find Item prizes with the exception of the final dungeon, chapter 4 sidequest maps and Deep Dungeon.
- Toned down C1 randoms to incorporate less Panthers/Goblins and more scrub Humans.
- Made random humans in later chapters more competitive.
- Changed random battle formations to make them more interesting.
- Rare battle changes (Tonfa has details?)
- Removed Adramelk's Start: Protect/Shell and dropped his Brave to 80.
- Various minor AI fixes.
- Documentation fixes. Rare battles (direction to enter) are now documented on the location.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 07:11:23 PM by Laggy »
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1631 on: March 17, 2011, 01:18:50 PM »
I presume you meant "lowered" not "raised" for Ahriman and Bull Demon speed growth?

Otherwise, I've mentioned this before but...on principle I object to there not being any move 5 classes.  Doesn't have to be Squire, but...differentiating Ninja/Thief more by making one of them 5/3?  Buffing Geos?  Both interesting ideas.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1632 on: March 17, 2011, 01:27:25 PM »
That is supposed to be speed mult, not growth. Typing oversight.
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1633 on: March 17, 2011, 04:01:44 PM »
Bull Demons are an earlygame monster, are we sure a speed boost is really called for there?

Quote
Squire base move dropped from 5 to 4.

Really not a fan of this one. I thought Squire was an underused class compared to how you folks wanted it to be already. Squire just went back to pretty much a zero interest carrier to me again. Okay, there are some knight sword + light armor/hats shenanigans they can still pull off in chapter 4, but that's really not enough. Thief and Ninja have innate Two Swords; Geomancer has boss stats and shields; keep the 5 move on someone else.

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superaielman

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1634 on: March 17, 2011, 04:23:52 PM »
Give Squires books then? *nodnod* Probably a better attack option than Knight Swords.
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1635 on: March 17, 2011, 04:47:13 PM »
Bull Demons are an earlygame monster, are we sure a speed boost is really called for there?

Quote
Squire base move dropped from 5 to 4.

Really not a fan of this one. I thought Squire was an underused class compared to how you folks wanted it to be already. Squire just went back to pretty much a zero interest carrier to me again. Okay, there are some knight sword + light armor/hats shenanigans they can still pull off in chapter 4, but that's really not enough. Thief and Ninja have innate Two Swords; Geomancer has boss stats and shields; keep the 5 move on someone else.

I...yeah, mostly agree.  The conversation I remember having with Laggy...

Laggy: "Squires are really good now.  Basic Skill >>> Elemental in the Deep Dungeon.  Heal hype!"
mc: "So...instead of move 5, why don't you take away Knight Swords, being their less unique buff?"
Laggy: "What?  No!  Then I wouldn't use them."

Harkening back to much earlier in the desing process of LFT...we buffed Knight a lot, because we didn't want to put too much stock into "eventually they get Knight Swords."  In fact, we more or less ignored that "eventually".  Seems rather weird to be now nerfing a class because they're good after they get Knight Swords.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1636 on: March 17, 2011, 07:10:04 PM »
The difference being that I wanted Squire to be a class you return to later, whereas Knight has a use the entire game.

So far as carrier interest goes, I think the potency of Basic Skill is being really underrated here. Let's compare the skillsets of all the other classes you have:

Elemental/Throw - mediocre ranged options with not much variety. Sure, you use them while you're in the class, but they're basically never even worthy of being set as secondaries.
Steal - arguably the worst skillset in the game, still.
Basic Skill - full status healing (well and beyond any other available in the game, utterly invaluable in some fights), stat buffs when nothing else is in range, MP restoration, instant and free Reraise on allies.

The Knight Sword dynamic is specifically a throwback to Squire for lategame use while for Knights it's more of an additional perk, since the class's niche is well defined beforehand (whereas Squire is a class no one wants to stick around in just because it's 'early' and the high JP cost of the new abilities thrown in).

If a Move 5 class is called for I honestly think Ninja is more deserving of the title (given it's one of the few classes we've straight up nerfed, it's not entirely uncalled for). Or if it's put back on Squire it could use some other downtoning, perhaps stat-wise.
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1637 on: March 17, 2011, 07:46:19 PM »
If you say so. This doesn't sync up with the general amount I've seen Squire get used, but you're probably paying more attention.

I also think Basic Skill is being overrated compared to Throw/Elemental, ranged options on ST smashers are good. Not to say I don't think Basic Skill still isn't better (particularly for certain battles that spam status at you, though those are a minority), but the gap isn't what you're making it out to be. In battles that are light on status (which is most), I'm very unlikely to trade down to inferior stats/equipment (i.e. lacking either Two Swords or a shield) just to trade in some decent ranged attacks for Reinforce and Yell. I'll grant you that Steal is fairly lame, but hey, it's early Two Swords and sometimes its ability to sponge hits Ninja can't is useful even later.

I just now have very little interest in Squire as a carrier pre-knight swords, and I can't imagine I'm alone. "Basic Skill is kinda cool" isn't a great argument since I can learn it, then slap it on other jobs in battles I feel I need it.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1638 on: March 17, 2011, 07:49:20 PM »
I just now have very little interest in Squire as a carrier pre-knight swords, and I can't imagine I'm alone. "Basic Skill is kinda cool" isn't a great argument since I can learn it, then slap it on other jobs in battles I feel I need it.

This is FINE, though. It's quite intentional that I don't want Squire to stand out before Knight Swords (aka basically C4). It IS the starting job and should not be more appealing than other options until later when you've got character development more or less finished and have a reason to return. This is the big distinguishing point of the class versus, say, Knight itself.

And yeah, obviously the skillset isn't the sole reason, but it's the one that stood out most to me.
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1639 on: March 17, 2011, 08:08:52 PM »
Yeah, if you're fine with Squire being a mediocre carrier for three chapters then this works well enough. And I guess it does solve the nagging issue of Squire outmoving UberSquire which I never really liked despite it being objectively fine balance.

Quite opposed to Thief/Ninja/Geo getting 5 move, though.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1640 on: March 17, 2011, 10:59:04 PM »
Fun fact: the thieves Quick Attack can be "caught" if the opponent has the catch skill.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1641 on: March 17, 2011, 11:04:30 PM »
Yeah, it uses the Throw formula and thus its properties versus the Catch reaction.

Unintended, but amusing. (Catch is totally not in danger of being too good)
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1642 on: March 18, 2011, 01:31:44 AM »
I've finally got Malak to Calculator. He's got the anti-chicken armor, the vanish mantle, and move-find item. It's time to hit the Deep Dungeon.

I'm worried that I'll have to spend some raising his brave up. After another chicken spell, he'll be low enough to leave.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1643 on: March 18, 2011, 01:36:18 AM »
Equip Armor Calculator strikes again
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1644 on: March 18, 2011, 03:31:55 AM »
I wondered what the deal with the Zodiac Goblin was. Aside from taking a while to kill they didn't seem that bad.
But then they started using Goblin Punch for 999 damage and I suddenly understood.

Notable events of the fight include:
Lightning Stab turning a Goblin undead, and then that Goblin coming back to life after I killed him.
My Oracle making good use of petrify.
and Ramza using throw stone on the last Goblin, causing him to fall off a cliff for 999 damage, ending the fight.

Edit: oh wow, that's a lot of Wizards.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 04:13:26 AM by Redmage »

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1645 on: March 18, 2011, 03:17:28 PM »
It IS the starting job and should not be more appealing than other options until later when you've got character development more or less finished and have a reason to return.

Err...why would you try to dictate this, though?  From a design perspective, I don't understand.

"Master my skillset and then switch to a carrier class" is pretty much the default way of playing.  Even going back to vanilla FFT, Wizards, the first mage class you unlock, are fantastic in Chapter 1, and people STILL used the "master something else, return to wizard" route pretty much every single time.  It's not something we need to enforce with game mechanics to make absolutely sure Squires suck until Chapter 4.  Or, if in your experience people aren't auto-piloting "master->switch to carrier" when it comes to Squire, then isn't that a good thing?  More playstyle variation, and all that?

(Side note, we already are using some tricks to get people out of Squire--like we're taking advantage of roundoff error to make Squires kinda sub-par in Chapter 1, and then they're bad in Chapter 2 because 7 speed is bad in Chapter 2: you can't charge anything and get charged on.  Personally, I'd probably avoid the class as a primary until Chapter 3).

superaielman

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1646 on: March 18, 2011, 03:39:15 PM »
Quote

(Side note, we already are using some tricks to get people out of Squire--like we're taking advantage of roundoff error to make Squires kinda sub-par in Chapter 1, and then they're bad in Chapter 2 because 7 speed is bad in Chapter 2: you can't charge anything and get charged on.  Personally, I'd probably avoid the class as a primary until Chapter 3).

There already is an excellent reason to get out of squire, and that's getting actual worthwhile RSM skills.


Squire as an FF5 style freelancer class makes sense. Give it awesome equips, okay stats, and you just have to port over the skills. I'm grossly underwhelmed by Squire as an option as is- it's still inferior to the special classes, and as a carrier, eh. Hats+Knight swords are fantastic, but Beowulf/Orlandu/Agrias still exist to suck up Excalibur/Chaos Blades.   It's the same problem Knights had in Vanilla. Books/Harps/carpets/bows could all be added to varying degrees of increased effectiveness to brokeness (HARPS) there.  I don't think the class really merits a nerf as is.

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I still DEMAND Dark Knight Rad, Laggy.  (Or just give Squires NS/DS. *Nodnod*)
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<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1647 on: March 18, 2011, 03:42:48 PM »
I wondered what the deal with the Zodiac Goblin was. Aside from taking a while to kill they didn't seem that bad.
But then they started using Goblin Punch for 999 damage and I suddenly understood.

Notable events of the fight include:
Lightning Stab turning a Goblin undead, and then that Goblin coming back to life after I killed him.
My Oracle making good use of petrify.
and Ramza using throw stone on the last Goblin, causing him to fall off a cliff for 999 damage, ending the fight.

Edit: oh wow, that's a lot of Wizards.

That fight is scarier than it looks. Watch out though, the DD steps way up after that battle.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Redmage

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1648 on: March 19, 2011, 01:30:50 AM »
I just finished the fight against Barinten. It was tough until I realized that he was susceptible to sleep and brave lowering spells.
With the biggest threat stalled, my heavy hitters came in and wiped out everyone else.

By the time Barinten woke up the fight was already won.

Does the innocent status the robots have protect them from Rafa and Malak's skills?

superaielman

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1649 on: March 19, 2011, 01:32:26 AM »
Malak's, yes. Rafa's, no.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
-------------------
<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...