LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)

[Laggy]

It also has an atrocious load time if you accidentally use it.

Equip Change is enough of a gimmick quirk on Mustadio (who kinda needs that help to distinguish himself) that tossing it out like candy to generics would feel like a kick in the pants to him. As aforementioned, Chemist really doesn't need the help.

[metroid composite]

Equip Change is enough of a gimmick quirk on Mustadio (who kinda needs that help to distinguish himself) that tossing it out like candy to generics would feel like a kick in the pants to him. As aforementioned, Chemist really doesn't need the help.

Definitely not Chemist, yeah.

It doesn't necessarily have to crowd out Mustadio...just don't give it to a generic that can equip guns by default (as Stone Gun is still the best use for it, so Mustadio will outshine that generic--even if the generic uses Equip Gun, Mustadio can just use Attack Up).

Geo and Archer probably the two that get the most entertaining use out of it (since they have access to both Earth Clothes and elemental shields).  Although...maybe that's a reason not to use either of those (make people choose between Equip Shield, Equip Katana, and Equip Gun?)  Squire's kinda neat too, since they can switch between swords and crossbows (and they sort of have thematic reasons to change clothing--or at least, part of the medieval squire's job is to help his knight get into and out of armor).

It also has an atrocious load time if you accidentally use it.

I'd be a little leery about throwing free Equip Change to too many classes just because part of me finds it to be menu clutter. This is probably just me being weird though.

To be honest, these are actually both very good reasons to not spread Equip Change around.  We know it won't add much, but if it actively takes away then that's...bad.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Dear lord do not give Geomancers more advantages. They are already too good in this game. >_>

[metroid composite]

Man, I'm hearing such conflicting opinions on Geos, from Laggy's "we have to nerf Squires because they make Geos look bad" to Ciato's "Geos are too good in this game".

[Laggy]

On reflection I don't think even 5 move Squires make Geos look that bad, but 1 - as stated previously, due to being the starter class I really think they should not be a kneejerk carrier during the early/midgame or even competitive with Geomancer until lategame, and 2 - they fulfill different roles.

Squire's lack of shields, for instance, is not a penalty if you're running Two Swords or Two Hands (both popular lategame options, especially the former when using Knight Swords). They're still faster than Geos even if their other stats are worse, which can be good or bad depending (more differentiation). Yes, the move difference could be an even greater differentiation, but that isn't so much made in respect to Geos, it's to emphasize the other stuff (mainly high JP abilities and Knight Swords) later on and to also not kick Knights squarely in the pants (I'd be more worried about Knights vs Squires if anything, though Knights have a clear niche for most of the game that it's not too big a deal. But if they were still 5 move, that + 20 speed mult difference + way better equips trumps even the tankiness in lategame for the most part).

[Laggy]

I'm still wondering about 5 move Ninjas though. NEB, you said you were strongly opposed to this... and while it's true that Ninjas are still physical offensive powerhouses, they were nerfed quite a bit, possibly more than any other class in the game. Do you still this would push them back over into overpowered territory? I'm mainly comparing them to Samurai now - Samurai being much, much slower, tankier, but actually comparable or even better in damage - pretty sure better, actually. Plus of course the notable skillset difference. The mobility would make Ninja not cry about that gap quite as much, although it's possible I'm entirely underrating just how good the speed edge is.

EDIT: Attached brief chatlog with Richard elaborating further.
[12:50] <@Laggy> 5 move Ninjas, immediate reaction of 'zomg no' or actually worth considering
[12:50] <RichardHawk> Honestly don't think they need it
[12:51] <@Laggy> Mmkay.
[12:51] <RichardHawk> Mind playing devil's advocate?
[12:52] <@Laggy> One of the last classes you have to unlock (same as Samurai), but unlike Samurai their skillset pretty much blows and is something you use while in the class whereas Draw Out is one of the best skillsets in the game, which regulates their use to mainly being good carriers...
[12:52] <@Laggy> In LFT, though, the frailty is a much larger concern than it ever was in FFT, and their most abusive stuff (Martial Arts, damage in general) has been kicked square down to the point where many classes can quite easily compete with them in damage.
[12:53] <@Laggy> Any given Two Hands setup (say Lancers) or Samurai themselves, for instance, can match Ninja damage now.
[12:53] <@Laggy> The main thing they have going for them is their speed. I don't know if it's enough given that the class's almost sole purpose to be a carrier.
[12:54] <@Laggy> I feel the way you were using ninjas (send them in, assassinate things, carve up, reraise abuse) was pretty optimal and the Move stuff would emphasize that more.
[12:54] <@Laggy> But yeah, hey, 120 speed mult, nothing else compares.
[12:54] <RichardHawk> This is true. Also if you -don't- take any precautions a Ninja with added move running in just dies horribly.
[12:54] <@Laggy> Yeah
[12:55] <@Laggy> Also note that you only got your awesome damage output because you were running Charge
[12:55] <@Laggy> If you run ninjas without Charge or Attack UP their damage output is... honestly not that amazing.
[12:55] <RichardHawk> Yeah, underestimated how much LFT buffs classes at the kneejerk.
[12:55] <RichardHawk> Eh.
[12:55] <@Laggy> (Meanwhile you can put Two Hands on a Geo with Charge and deal like 500+ damage.)
[12:55] <RichardHawk> Let's use it for our test run.
[12:55] <@Laggy> (Easily.)
[12:56] <@Laggy> And they have tankiness and all that.
[12:56] <RichardHawk> If it seems excessive we can revert it for public release
[12:56] <Ranmilia> possible counterpoint: breaks yardow
[12:56] <@Laggy> They still don't reach Rafa turn one physically!
[12:56] <Ranmilia> remember it's +1 throw range as well so essentially +2 range for AI ninjas
[12:57] <@Laggy> Give Rafa Catch
[12:57] <@Laggy> >_>
[12:57] <@Laggy> <_<
[12:57] <@Laggy> Oh, yes.
[12:57] <RichardHawk> I am also not pposed to buffing Throw slightly obviously.
[12:57] <@Laggy> It's a Throw buff.
[12:57] <RichardHawk> opposed even.

[Laggy]

Triplepost!

@NinjaWeazel: Check the end of the 2nd post at the beginning of the thread for a brief MFI blurb. Also updated rare fights and stealables accordingly. These are going in with the next patch.

[metroid composite]

Like I said before, if Ninjas are 5 move, then they should be 3 jump.  (That way they're further differentiated from Thieves).

I'm...honestly tentatively OK with 5 move Ninjas, pending testing.  With the PA drop, they don't really carry any stat-based skillsets especially well (except for Steal and Throw).  Punch Art doesn't like that Ninja PA is now kinda low, or that none of the Ninja weapons can boost PA (as a lot of competing classes do have PA buff weapons).  Jump Ninja has always been kinda bad, to be honest--they tend to be just a little bit too fast and thus can't jump on 90% of enemies.  Swordskill Ninja needs Equip Sword, which already puts them at a disadvantage.

Which of course still leaves the speed based skills (Steal and Throw) the non-stat based skills (Item, Talk Skill, which both benefit heavily from move and speed).  There's status-based calc, too, but that's probably better on Bard for the extra speed and MA.  And...status based magic--the offence ones like Yin Yang suffer for the same reason as Jump, but the defence ones like Time and White are good.  (But we specifically made their MP costs high enough that Ninja would be missing their big money moves like Haste 2 and Raise 2...so those aren't especially abusive with Ninja).  And there's Battle Skill--not too worried about that (Battle Skill Thief is mosty good early).

Of course, there's the basic Ninja physical attack too, which is good.  (And Charge, which I lump under "basic physical attack" for the most part).  It's hard to evaluate exactly how good, but I'm pretty sure Ninja without a secondary or a primary is still useable.



I don't know; it doesn't strike me as "this is a class that's seriously hurting for a niche".  But Ninja also doesn't strike me as the "obvious best go-to class" for any of the stuff where they're good.  (Item is also really good on Chemist and Knight.  Steal is also really good on Squire and Bard.  Talk Skill is just a nice supplement to any class that's already good before they get a secondary, like Monk and Time Mage).

[Laggy]

Yeah, it's not that they don't have a niche - it's that it's an end-of-job-tree class next to Samurai whose primary purpose is to be a carrier, and it doesn't seem to distinguish itself well ENOUGH as that anymore like it used to.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Hmm.

Ninja still has innate Two Swords and Throw is fine... I'm not sure why you hate it. Steal is still the one of that duo that sucks as a primary (yeah, QA is good... but not on a Thief), Ninja still craps all over Thief once you unlock it, better skillset + better speed + better PA + better weapons. It feels like 5 move just makes this comparison even more completely one-sided. Maybe you're fine with that, it does take some effort to unlock and it's not as if the comparison isn't already pretty one-sided once you have both. And it's true, I don't think Ninja is exactly threatening to be one of LFT's best overall classes as is (though I do think it has a niche, game-best speed is always something), so them getting a buff wouldn't break anything. I guess I'm not really sure. My kneejerk behind that comment (that I didn't want 5 move on thief/ninja/geo) was "Squire as a carrier needs more help than the classes with innate Two Swords or the class with 125 bases + all defensive gear that matters" but I've been argued since that it's okay for Squire to be a mediocre carrier before you have spare knight swords. So... yeah, I guess I'm fairly neutral on this one too.


Also, Geomancer > Squire as a carrier by far even before Squire's move nerf, if you're looking for another opinion that, mc. I think Laggy just underrates ranged chipping skillsets! Otherwise I have no idea why one would opt for Squire over a class with +15 base HP/PA/MA and shields until you have a good spare knight sword. And as I alluded to earlier, I haven't seen many people doing so.

[Laggy]

Geo got toned back down to 120, not 125, NEB, though your point still stands and I actually fully agree that Geo is a better carrier than Squire for like 90% of the game (aka before you get multiple Knight Swords). This doesn't bother me - in that 10% (which happens to be way late/aftergame) Squires distinguish themselves enough to make a case and aren't a total lost cause.

Ninja owns Thief as a carrier, this is true! But yes, unlock prereqs + Thief is still the better training class (growth, poaching) + Steal being so much more viable makes me OK with it. They're almost too similar to really avoid one being a clear better fighter than the other.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Oh, wasn't aware of that, okay. (Pretty sure the last version both of us played still had 'em at 125.) Good to know, though yeah, obviously doesn't change any of my broader points.

[Laggy]

So with the latest patch incoming I wanted to put out a public call out there to perhaps some of the new folks who've posted recently or lurkers who caught wind of LFT from other areas (like the SA thread).

Could I possibly convince some enterprising fellow who has not actually played LFT before (or maybe only a cursory playthrough) to attempt an LP or something similar to those veins (a summary of their experiences during the playthrough) with the new patch? Richard and I are looking to really, really cement things with this pass and get any last-minute tweaks we want out of our systems, and it helps to get a fresh perspective.

(I can offer a cameo position if someone's willing to grab this task as well!)

[DjinnAndTonic]

Hmm... this was something that I had been thinking about for a while since the banner creation... But since you're thinking about cementing things now, I guess I'll bring it up.

Is there any custom sprite changes you'd be interested in for LFT? I've been wanting to do some more spriting for a while now, and this seems like a good project to throw my efforts to. I realize that the main idea of LFT isn't any kind of graphical/story hacking, but in case there was something where you had been thinking 'Man, if only we could change this or that sprite', I figured it'd be fun to give it a shot.

[metroid composite]

Hmm... this was something that I had been thinking about for a while since the banner creation... But since you're thinking about cementing things now, I guess I'll bring it up.

Is there any custom sprite changes you'd be interested in for LFT? I've been wanting to do some more spriting for a while now, and this seems like a good project to throw my efforts to. I realize that the main idea of LFT isn't any kind of graphical/story hacking, but in case there was something where you had been thinking 'Man, if only we could change this or that sprite', I figured it'd be fun to give it a shot.

I'm not sure about others on the project, but Laggy and I are programmers.  If the art were stick figures we'd...notice, but we wouldn't talk about changing it.  I don't think the discussion has come up.

Which is to say, in the game industry, it's usually the artist who says "that's ugly, I want to fix it".  So...lets say you're the lead LFT artist: what stands out to you?

(Well...one thing has jumped to mind: some monsters are missing animations, but that may not be fixable as the monsters may not have slots for those anims).

[DjinnAndTonic]

Hmm... it's not a question of 'FFT looks bad, you should fix it'... it's a question of 'You've changed a lot of things about the FFT system, is there anything visual that would be better changed to suit the flavor of the gameplay changes you've made?'

For example, if you've significantly changed Dragons such that they act more like say... Unicorns, would you like me to make a Unicorn sprite for you? Do you think Squires or Mimes or Dancers could use more unique sprites to reflect how much they've changed from FFT? Do you want all female Knights to look like a Valkyrie/Lenneth for the lulz?

That sort of thing.

[Laggy]

Mm, there are a few things of note I can think of but they would require quite a bit of research into how FFT sprite animations actually work as it's a field I have little to no experience in. There IS a sprite editor program and a good amount of documentation, but it's not a trivial amount of work and I wouldn't want you to undertake it unless you really wanted the experience.

As far as dramatic redraws of classes and monsters, no, I don't particularly want anything dramatic as to stay true to the original FFT feel. Possibilities are:

1. Fixing some of the glitched animations (i.e. Steal Heart on panthers) - this would require actual new spritesheets and a good amount of testing. Unlikely to happen.
2. "Touching up" the main classes and/or NPC sprites by adding new features or distinguishing designs that work off the base to give a unique feel to the mod without superceding the original (they should still be fully recognizable).
3. Redrawing some of the more obscure NPCs (only one I can think of, really) that's being used in an optional superfight.

[Hadin]

Long time dabbler, first time poster.

Decided to throw this out there now that you are thinking of content locking for real this time.

Because Yell has been moved to a squire (all varients) skill, would it be possible to finally give Ubersquire something for chapter 3? One of the things about base fft that seemed a bit odd was having Ramza's gimmick be as an evolving base job, and then 'not' doing so at a turning point like that.

Not sure what to suggest if the idea suits you, just throwing the idea out there.

[Dark Holy Elf]

It's a cool idea, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it would involve some more serious (ASM?) hacking, since Ramza doesn't actually change "jobs" there (which I agree, he probably should have).

[DjinnAndTonic]

1. Fixing some of the glitched animations (i.e. Steal Heart on panthers) - this would require actual new spritesheets and a good amount of testing. Unlikely to happen.
2. "Touching up" the main classes and/or NPC sprites by adding new features or distinguishing designs that work off the base to give a unique feel to the mod without superceding the original (they should still be fully recognizable).
3. Redrawing some of the more obscure NPCs (only one I can think of, really) that's being used in an optional superfight.

#2 and 3 there was basically what I was getting at. Though, since I'm not nearly the FFT fan that most of this community is, I'm not sure what kind of small design changes would be appropriate without superceding the originals. I guess I could just take some design cues from FFTA/2 and incorporate them. Alternately, I could totally incorporate things from other SRPGs, like giving Chemists WAXF-esque Gadgeteer Hats or giving Mages Disgaea-esque maid-caps/frills. Knights totally need the Tri-Force symbol on their shields, and Female Knights want Valkyrie-feather-helms. At least, these are the ideas that -I- would come up with. LFT is your vision, so you'd have a more comprehensive idea of what kinda changes would be appropriate.

It basically boils down to: Toss me some suggestions and base sprite sheets and I'll get to work. If you don't feel like this will add anything to the hack, then that's fine, too.

[metroid composite]

My honest feeling is that a lot of the character sprites look quite good.  There's some deep dungeon ones that weren't designed for use, so maybe those?

On the other hand, some of the battle maps are a bit ugly (while others are fine).  No idea if there's an editor for map textures, though.

[Laggy]

Yeah, Ramza's job remains unchanged between C2 and C3, which means it's not possible to differentiate the two, unfortunately.

[NinjaWeazel]

@NinjaWeazel: Check the end of the 2nd post at the beginning of the thread for a brief MFI blurb. Also updated rare fights and stealables accordingly. These are going in with the next patch.

Ah OK.  Any chance of getting a list of the new MFI stuff for not-DD maps?  Or at least the once-ever encounter maps (Dorter 1 & 2, Sand Rat Cellar, etc)?  I can probably MFI Rafa around on the common encounter maps to get a full new list of everything else once I recruit her.

[Laggy]

When the new patch comes out, you can download FFTPatcher and just open up the ISO with it and view the entire MFI listing yourself. It's much easier to do it that way.

[NinjaWeazel]

When the new patch comes out, you can download FFTPatcher and just open up the ISO with it and view the entire MFI listing yourself.

I had no idea that was even possible!    Well that is just bona fide awesome, right there.

And edit: I am running through my first ever LFT experience currently, I can LP it here if you still want, Laggy. I'd be glad to LP the next release.  Alternately I have tossed this to a bunch of my friends, I could put the call out to them.

Edit the 2nd:

2. "Touching up" the main classes and/or NPC sprites by adding new features or distinguishing designs that work off the base to give a unique feel to the mod without superceding the original (they should still be fully recognizable).

 
This could be totally sweet.  My personal thoughts on this are mostly 'changing the pallettes to be even more distinctive for different factions'.  also perhaps we can change Dancer from that brown & tan to something a little... more festive?  (Personally I would also love to see not-pink female Ninjas & Lancers for Ramza's team, but maybe that's just me.)