Author Topic: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)  (Read 455978 times)

Hoxir

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1775 on: December 04, 2011, 03:41:03 AM »
That is really good! I've been waiting for some videos focused on the changes of your patch, Laggy. Like the MFI changes, or rare battle changes... And DD too (locked yet, but soon it won't be).

I'd say, thus, that some things are yet to be fixed, this is, if you want to fix them: the duplicate item trick (already used  8-)) and the scroll JP glitch (first I thought it was fixed, but after I managed to do it. Guess I just was doing it wrong the first time).

Luther Lansfeld

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1776 on: December 04, 2011, 06:33:40 PM »
Well, I think the philosophy is that if you want to use glitches you can. :p I honestly had forgotten those even existed.
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metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1777 on: December 06, 2011, 12:18:38 AM »
I thought we did take out JP-scroll.  Or at least: I certainly argued for it being gone.

I'm ok with item dupe, just because sometimes it's funny to have a party with 5 Excaliburs, and you can't sanely do that any other way.

JP scroll is just...a pretty dumb shortcut.  It's weird as hell (you can learn every ability in this job, but you haven't reached job level 2 yet so you didn't unlock the next class), and very uneven across classes (some classes can JP scroll and others can't, which makes some classes much more valuable if you're JP scrolling).


Hmm...one thing that watching this video brings up already: Replenish has a very ambiguous description.  From the video, it sounds like he concludes it heals HP (which is wrong).

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1778 on: December 06, 2011, 04:16:47 AM »
Honestly of the two I'm more likely to use JP-scroll (not that I'd use either). Still, I'd argue for either removing both or keeping both.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1779 on: December 06, 2011, 06:55:33 AM »
I love that you take issue with JP Scroll glitch because it is unfair cross classes.  Such a poorly balanced glitch.  As always Met, you are the best.

From memory wasn't there some discussion in the thread about cutting back on ability lists to eliminate JP Scroll glitch (or am I thinking of how another patch got around it?).

Honestly, they are bugs present in the original game.  I don't think you gain a great deal out of spending time fixing up someone else's code when it isn't getting in your way.  So what if people can cheat?  They could do that anyway if they wanted, it is a patch that needs to be applied to an ISO.  Even people that play it on a console will still be doing enough shit that they can hex edit their save game or one of many other cheats if they want. 

Harmess fluff that does no damage to the experience unless you let it.  Time better spent on LaGgy Frontier or whatever else happens to be being diddled with at the moment.
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metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1780 on: December 06, 2011, 03:46:58 PM »
I love that you take issue with JP Scroll glitch because it is unfair cross classes.  Such a poorly balanced glitch.  As always Met, you are the best.

Well...yes.

Whenever something is in the game, you have to assume that there is a section of the audience (i.e. not Elfboy) who might use it every chance they get.  And I was on the FFT message board when there were some newbies who had learned about the JP scroll glitch, describing their experiences, and I was just thinking "god, that just sounds so unfun."  It's not just the class imbalance--it's also removing the interesting choices.  I'd be fine with JP scroll if it was a one-time cheat to give yourself 2000 JP, so you had to pick and choose what to learn, instead of "you don't need to make decisions, just learn everything."  Give people a tool and some people will use it, even if they are unknowingly ruining their own experience.

Item duping, by comparison, is pretty benign.  High-end weapons are awesome, but there's competition between them (several of them are very good, especially in LFT).  You're playing a different metagame, but one that is also reasonably fun in its own way.  People who go item dupe crazy are probably not going to have a bad experience, just a different one.



(Now that I think about it, though, I believe we had a fix for JP scroll at one point, but we took it out because there was some kind of side-effect that would actually be relevant to people who didn't JP Scroll, which we deemed to be...95% of the people playing LFT).

Grefter

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1781 on: December 06, 2011, 08:47:40 PM »
Ahhh now pardon me this personal joke that I don't think anyone else will get.



It is a Sev 3 docket at worst, doesn't impact the functionality of the core program.  End users have to actively seek out how to do it to run into it.  Low chance of accidentally replicating the defect, if they do then core functionality still operates.  Given that it sources from the Vendor's product and has minimal impact it is not worth the cost in people hours to fix the vendor's bug.  Wait for Vendor patch to correct defect.  LEave open as a Sev 4 defect with known WA.  Socialise with end users letting them know that it has minimal impact but to not use.
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Laggy

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1782 on: December 06, 2011, 08:51:18 PM »
Episode 2 is up after much maligned uploading.
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1783 on: December 06, 2011, 09:13:56 PM »
Attack of the Mimes?
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The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
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Hoxir

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1784 on: December 07, 2011, 12:08:08 PM »
I actually like a lot the item duple, too, though there are other ways to achieve Excaliburs and similars (ninja throwing). I love to get them on chapter 2, haha, but didn't manage to do it on LFT, on my first run (currently gameplay).

By the way, I just found something to be very strange... You exchanged the attack powers of Excalibur and Save the Queen, right, Laggy? Ok, no problema with this (more balanced, by the way). The problem is that the AI throws weapons based on the ninja's level and weapon's power. Like, Lv99 and 98 - Chaos Blade; Lv97 - Ragnarok; Lv96 - Save the Queen; Lv95 - Excalibur; Lv94 - Defender. But Excalibur now has the power of the Save the Queen, and I received it on Lv96, in the place of that one. The next one, so, on Lv95, should be Save the Queen... but no! He just throwed a Defender on me! I can't get Save the Queen using the AI Throw anymore!  :(

Maybe that's a problem related to the exchange of attack powers of Excalibur and Save the Queen?

Attack of mimes just made me remember one thing. I love that battle on Bervenia. It's so unfair! I did some tactics to it: using Vanish Mantle. This way they just keep killing themselves, due to the Void Knight who is crazy. The drawback is that I need to put at least two visible chars, I think (usually two monsters); if not, the Void Knight uses a skill from hell who kills my two person chars and leaves Ramza almost dead, even them being invisible. The skill affects the entire field, and only enemies!  :o He used once when I had just one visible monster, but didin't do it before when I used too...

Once I almost did it! The only enemies left were the Void Knight and Juno, the "Delita" guy. But I actived a trap with Agrias and she became visible, and then my heaven fell, haha.

One question: Isn't possible to activate Sunken State while performing (dacing or singing)?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 01:25:27 PM by Hoxir »

metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1785 on: December 07, 2011, 03:38:30 PM »
Episode 2 is up after much maligned uploading.

Man, after Dorter I was a little worried that Sand Rat would be a horrendous slog.  I mean, he didn't have an Archer so he couldn't just cheese it.

And then poison hit everyone on the enemy team.  Welp.


(One correction on that video--Dorter is not actually raining hard enough to boost bolt and lower fire; FFT differentiates between light rain and heavy rain).


As for nobody ever learing Move-Get EXP, yeah, we're probably overly cautious with the pricing of these due to how ridiculus Gained JP Up was in vanilla.  I'm ok with being overly cautious, though--it's not like move-get EXP creates interesting battle situations.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1786 on: December 07, 2011, 04:15:09 PM »
Side note, I'm squinting at the new spin fist and thinking "OMFG"

I mean, no, it's not broken by any stretch of the imagination.  All you have to do is compare classic FFT's Kikuichimoji to Muramasa to know that.  Earth Slash pounds Spin Fist.

But at the same time, I think it's now a little out-of place now as the least expensive ability in the skillset.  Like...it has half the JP cost of Wave Fist now, and I think I might value it over Wave Fist....

VySaika

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1787 on: December 07, 2011, 08:32:53 PM »
Ehhh, I disagree. Wave fist is reliable, precision damage at range. Spin fist is cool, but what it is not is SAFE. And early on, which is when you're likely to have it(as opposed to, say, Earth Slash), is also when you can't really afford to risk busting up your own allies just to hit more then one enemy. Especially when, and correct me if I'm wrong here because I could be, you can't see the accuracy/damage projections on spin fist for each individual person you're going to hit with it. If spin fist became more expensive then, or even the same price as, wave fist, I'd probably never pick it up.
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Hoxir

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1788 on: December 08, 2011, 12:06:03 PM »
(Hey, Death has been improved to a almost always instant kill magic. Usually I liked to cast Frog on enemies, because Death never worked... but now...

Laggy, why don't you improve Frog? It's easier to instant kill an enemie than turning it in a frog!?)

metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1789 on: December 08, 2011, 03:44:35 PM »
Death is very slow and expensive.  Beyond the earlygame it typically takes two full turns to land Death.  (Originally it was 18 CT, and always took two full turns to land).  48 MP makes it like...the most expensive status spell in the game, and not far below casting Holy on someone.  I don't know when it got upped to 180 hit-rate, though (last I checked it was 160) but certainly it has accuracy issues where something like Holy does not.


Frog...the thing about Frog is that we want to be careful about stepping on Oracle's toes.  Oracle has a very similar spell to Frog in Petrify.  In fact, Frog is less CT, less MP, and less JP than Petrify.  It's also slightly less accurate now that Petrify is buffed to 130; I'd be fine with matching that accuracy.

One thing that makes Frog cool, though, is that you can cast it if you're turned into a frog (and use it to un-frog yourself).  Which means, if you have a master Wizard, you're going to want to know Frog, just on the off chance that this Wizard gets turned into a Frog, or needs to de-Frog an ally.

It's also just a contrast thing, though.  Death is slow and expensive and long range and accurate.  Frog is fast, cheap, short range, and inaccurate.  If we want to push Frog a little harder, my inclination would be to emphasize these traits rather than make it more like Death.  For instance...100 JP, 9 MP, 4 CT.  Or alternatively, raise the accuracy, but lower the range to 1 to make it like a D&D touch spell.  It's possible that kind of change would make Black Magic Calc more powerful than we want, though.


But...yeah, it's less of an issue of "we don't know how to make this spell competitive with Death" and more of an issue of "How do we do so without trampling all over Yin Yang Magic's niche?"
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 03:48:10 PM by metroid composite »

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1790 on: December 09, 2011, 01:05:23 AM »
Frog is also arguably a better effect than Death when it hits - can't be cured with revival, works on undead (and is probably blocked less often than Dead by equips) and allows a player using it to grind out more crystals and JP from a battle.  If Frog and Death were equal in other respects I'd think Frog would almost always be the go-to spell.  That's a bigger factor to me than stepping on Oracle's toes, since Petrify is kinda rarely used anyway and the opportunity costs of actions with the two classes don't seem very comparable. 

metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1791 on: December 09, 2011, 01:34:13 AM »
Frog is also arguably a better effect than Death when it hits - can't be cured with revival, works on undead (and is probably blocked less often than Dead by equips) and allows a player using it to grind out more crystals and JP from a battle.  If Frog and Death were equal in other respects I'd think Frog would almost always be the go-to spell.  That's a bigger factor to me than stepping on Oracle's toes, since Petrify is kinda rarely used anyway and the opportunity costs of actions with the two classes don't seem very comparable.

I'd disagree--Death is a stronger effect than Frog, because it lets you blitz.  If things are really going wrong, your reviver is dead and there's not much time left, you want to use Death, and ideally have been using Death (not frog) since the start of the fight and don't have a lot of Frogs still waiting to be killed.

As for revival...you have to consider status curing if you're considering that.  Maiden's Kiss is a 40 JP ability, and Heal is a 150 JP ability compared to 250 JP Phoenix Down.  Stigma Magic is cheaper than Revive.  Raise is cheaper than Esuna.  On the whole, I'd say it's more likely that the enemies have an ability that cures Frog than cures Death.  And if they do cure death, decent odds the enemy comes back with very low HP, and thus immediately runs away.

So...against random generic humans, I'd say you're probably facing more enemies that can cure Frog than can revive.  Not monsters though!  Apparently Choco Esuna sucks; I never noticed!  And possibly not Laggy aftergame fights either...I forget what kind of crazy stuff Laggy did for those.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1792 on: December 09, 2011, 02:57:07 AM »
Yeah, I do have to agree with mc that Death would be the clearly better spell if they were equal in all manners but effect, since you still have to waste time killing frogs. Also, frogs can sometimes do very annoying things like waking up/decharming their statused allies and finishing off your PCs who have revived with Phoenix Down. You can also defrog your own enemies by accident (mostly with Nameless Dance).

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Hoxir

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1793 on: December 09, 2011, 03:16:04 AM »
Hah, the problem is always the CT. Sorry guys, I just forget about it — never again I want to deal with CT things. No-Charge all the way, always! Haha. The other day I asked why Odin costs more than Bahamut and deals lower damage compared to it, in a lower range, too, and that was the answer: the CT. But with No-Charge we just forget things...

But about Frog, I think MA+150% wouldn't be thaaat absurd evolution, and still would be a good change.

One more thing:



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Update: ok, I've been trolled. She's at the back part, haha. The arrow on the chat baloon decieved me...
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 03:46:56 AM by Hoxir »

metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1794 on: December 09, 2011, 04:05:41 AM »
That would make it more accurate than Petrify, and equally accurate to Pray Faith/Doubt Faith.

Not that it would necessarily break the game, but...I dunno.  Would we then change things so that no spell has accuracy below 150?  I mean, changes to Frog are something to consider, absolutely I agree.  But it's a bit delicate when you look at bigger picture stuff.  Stuff like...we want to keep Black Magic focused on damage, and Death looks like damage (in-game displays a damage figure, not a status name), and Poison is a status that deals damage.  Frog is not.  Do we really want to encourage Wizard setups where people run around spamming a debilitation non-damage spell?  Or should we keep it as that ability that you still want to learn, but only end up using occasionally when a teammate is Frogged or when you're low on MP.

I guess what I'm saying is...
Could we buff Frog: Yes.
Should we buff Frog: I don't know.  It's not so much balance concerns as bigger picture stylistic concerns.

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1795 on: December 09, 2011, 12:53:54 PM »
My thought when reading this was to make it a 3-radius 30%~ hit rate average spell with solid range/moderate charge time that ignores allies.

It's an under-represented niche that would make for an interesting risk-reward, ala Elemental skills but with standard spell downsides and with the upside of being easier to use/bigger blast. Having said that, I don't know how having a weird status spell on Black Magic would be recieved(though, with Death and Poison being as odd as they are, it does seem to be the way the status magic on it is already going.).

*Shrugs.* Just a random thought I had.
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Hoxir

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1796 on: December 09, 2011, 01:09:08 PM »
I got your point about the damage focus for Black Mage. Maybe it could be +140, so. Not so high, but still a improvement (more 10%, it's reasonable).

Well, let's see what Laggy thinks about this.

metroid composite

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1797 on: December 09, 2011, 02:11:04 PM »
My thought when reading this was to make it a 3-radius 30%~ hit rate average spell with solid range/moderate charge time that ignores allies.

I'm definitely opposed to a change that would make it ignore allies.  One of the cool things about Frog is that you can cast it when you're a Frog, and therefore can un-Frog yourself.

For similar reasons, I'm not too keen on changes that would lower its percentage.  You should have a reasonably high success rate when targeting yourself with this spell.  (Hence, of all the changes brainstormed so far, I'd probably lean more towards "raise accuracy, but lower range")

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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1798 on: December 09, 2011, 03:27:30 PM »
Death is oceans better than Frog in practice due to Calc/Mime bombing. That just takes apart durable enemies (Hello C3 onward and especially Knights). I can't imagine using it other than that, due to CT/JP/MP costs.

Frog the spell I never really bothered with. There are other ways of inflicting it that I found to be most excellent though.
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Re: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)
« Reply #1799 on: December 09, 2011, 04:01:35 PM »
On the one hand, I don't see unfrog as an actually meaningful bonus to a frog. It's a nice bonus, but it is neither keeping you from getting killed as a Frog before you can cast it on yourself, nor is it anywhere near the only fix to Frog.

(Assuming other people are alive and unfrogged...and if they aren't, you have substantially more problems, if nothing else having your turn wasted healing yourself of a debilitating status when there are few to no people alive is, if not a fatal situation, close.).

And Frog is a rare status, and single status cures are rarely heavily utilized in general, even for relatively more common status like Break. (At least, any individual one. People utilize the various status cures for Chemist...but people buy those because they're cheap. Frog is not a heavy priority for most Wizards, if nothing else.)

On the other hand, it is unique as a trait, so whatever, I respect how you feel there. But I don't think it can be rebalanced any way that won't either make Death obsolete or Frog obsolete(Or basically make them the same thing, if perfectly balanced somehow) while still keeping the traits you desire. So *shrug*.

Extreme short range/high accuracy is simply better than Death's long charge and doesn't function if it's long charge it's self, and anything else I can think of is some kind of variation on how it functions right now.

(Although it would certainly be a reason to make it friendly fire if nothing else. I could see frog'd people using it as self-target and catching nearby enemies as well-it would make it less a cure spell and more a last resort spell that can also cure yourself. I didn't really think of that angle at all when discussing the spell initially.)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 04:11:44 PM by SageAcrin »
<RichardHawk> Waddle Dee looks broken.
<TranceHime> Waddle Dee does seem broken.

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