Author Topic: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)  (Read 456456 times)

OblivionKnight

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Re: FFT Changes
« Reply #150 on: December 12, 2008, 12:45:22 AM »
So yeah, is it possible to rename Alma? Possibly to oh...Jay-marla or some similar name?

Also, because Dhyer mentioned it, and it makes me wonder if it'll get OK to actually look at this topic and melt his eyes out:




Fuck.  All.  Of.  You.  In.  The.  Maxillary.  Cavity.
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Excal

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Re: FFT Changes
« Reply #151 on: December 12, 2008, 12:49:46 AM »
Still think you should consider hyping this thing, Cyril.  The insane fans may not like it, but it'd be good for everyone else.

superaielman

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Re: FFT Changes
« Reply #152 on: December 12, 2008, 01:33:56 AM »
So yeah, is it possible to rename Alma? Possibly to oh...Jay-marla or some similar name?

Also, because Dhyer mentioned it, and it makes me wonder if it'll get OK to actually look at this topic and melt his eyes out:




Fuck.  All.  Of.  You.  In.  The.  Maxillary.  Cavity.

The sad part about that is that my first reaction was 'huh, I know where that is.'

Testing Goland mk2: Now with less Excal failing massively.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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metroid composite

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Re: FFT Changes
« Reply #153 on: December 13, 2008, 05:43:48 AM »
So...Laggy and I started another run on Thursday.  Caught a few errors here and there.  Made a number of small modifications to Yin-Yang Magic and Dance and Sing.  There is one big glaring issue that I'm surprised nobody else has spotted, though.

Last Dance hit rate 100% -> 50%.

Eheheheh, yeah; the funny part is that I had been thinking "even at 100% I'm having trouble thinking of a scenario where it would be even useful."  Won't spoil it for everyone else who still has V4, but suffice it to say such a scenario exists and is pretty easy to set up once you see the combo.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2008, 05:46:46 AM by metroid composite »

metroid composite

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Re: FFT Changes
« Reply #154 on: December 15, 2008, 05:59:31 AM »
A few more little changes to Yin Yang (Confusion Song -> 4ctr, since we have Sleep at 6ctr, Paralyze at 5ctr, and Silence Song at 3ctr, but nothing at 4ctr, and Confusion Song seems between Paralyze and Silence against an average opponent).

Some general thoughts:

Monk/Dancer now mesh very well; stuff like innate Move HP Up while you Dance is just handy, and there's a handful of little things like that which just make the combo feel nice.  Also doesn't feel overpowered even with uber-carpets, at least compared to other setups Laggy and I had.

Two Hands Knight works fairly well--Knight doesn't need extra durability from a shield, and Two Hands is 300 JP now.  (Ice Brand+Black Robe, obviously).

Alternate magic carriers haven't blown me away.  Recently saw Geo with Summon and Squire with Yin Yang.  In both of those cases, switching out of the source job felt like it was losing a fair bit (no more Raise secondary; Oracle physical gets worse).  For all that, Elemental and Yell respectively both saw quite a bit of use while hanging in these class anyhow.

Equip Axe is noticeably solid now.  170 JP chibi version of Attack UP/MAU at some points.  Slasher is good for Jump.

Bolt 4 is definitely useable now.  Certainly saw all of Bolt1/Bolt2/Bolt3/Bolt4 throughout chapter 3.  (Well...less Bolt3, but I suspect a big part of that was Gate learned Bolt3 last).

Just some random observations, anyhow.

metroid composite

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Re: FFT Changes
« Reply #155 on: December 15, 2008, 09:59:02 PM »
Right, class analysis mark 2.0 (now that I've seen...well not quite three full playthroughs, but...).

So...the four categories are:
Skillset: the skillset
R/S/M: the Reaction/Support/Move abilities
Carrier: how much you're inclined to use the class to use powerful secondary skillsets.
Stand-alone: how effective the class is without a secondary and little training.  (I should note that this is NOT SCC style; more based on stuff like the class' physical + inexpensive abilities like Throw Ball).

Squire:
Skillset: bad
R/S/M: average (Move+1 and Equip Axe seem to be the big ones now).
Carrier: above average (on paper; with the amount of in-practice use they've seen they're closer to average)
Stand-alone: below average

Knight:
Skillset: situationally average (good against enemy Knights since they don't die; good against zodiacs)
R/S/M: average (Equip Armor, Equip Shield, and Equip Sword have all been seeing fairly regular use, and Weapon Guard is...maybe used on 20% of early/mid-game setups now).
Carrier: above average (haven't had an excess of people flocking to Knight after they're done their training, but it's still obviously an option)
Stand-alone: overused

Archer:
Skillset: average (I've seen it muscle out revival as a secondary roughly 50% of the time)
R/S/M: above average (Concentrate is frequently the support for physical.  Attack command is noteably good for multiple classes, and towards endgame, Concentrate tends to help the attack command more than anything.  Charge, Throw, and Battle Skill are all notably only buffed by Concentrate.  I've used it with Monk too--non-missing Wave Fists matter when you can't use Earth Slash...which is obnoxiously often in certain parts of the game).
Carrier: below average (Ignore Height, good equipment.  But...stats are pretty meh).
Stand-alone: below average (Bows are...worse than guns.  Crossbows are...worse than books.  Don't really want to jack these way up, though, since enemy archers are pretty nasty as-is).

Chemist:
Skillset: average (not dominant earlygame the way it used to be.  Still used).
R/S/M: above average (They still have Auto Potion, though...it's expensive enough that only one character stopped to get it, and having it didn't exactly cause the game to roll over and die as expected).
Carrier: below average (crap stats; still okay for Charge and Battle Skill because of guns, though).
Stand-alone: average (guns + some inexpensive Item skills = good).

Priest:
Skillset: overused (Raise is the new Phoenix Down for a secondary.  Not quite as mass-used, but White Magic is probably the single most-used skillset on average).
R/S/M: below average (Regenerator...comes up occasionally from spillover, though now that Counter-Magic is 200 JP too I'm starting to think it's the better "cheap spillover reaction".  Haven't seen anyone bother with MDU).
Carrier: average (generally crowded out by Squire, at least on paper; better MP than them, and better MA when Wizard Staffs first come out.  This not accounting for white magic >>> basic skill, mind).
Stand-alone: below average (much like Chemist you probably have revival if you're in the class.  Unlike chemist you don't get guns.  A good skillset could make up for this).

Wizard:
Skillset: above average (now solid throughout the game, it seems)
R/S/M: above average (MAU isn't auto-use since Short Charge competes, but still very, very good.  Counter-Magic is cheap enough to pick up).
Carrier: Overused
Stand-alone: above-average (Wizard with Bolt is still very good earlygame)

Mime:
Skillset: none
R/S/M: none
Carrier: none
Stand-alone: Uber (They're...good.  I'm fine with this for the same reason I'm fine with Medics being awesome in TF2--a team of all-mimes isn't great since they're a support class).

Monk:
Skillset: average (been using Monk a lot to try and get them to feel right and test the various buffs.  Not sure how much they'd be used if we hadn't singled them out for testing, but they seem OK)
R/S/M: average (If nothing else, Martial Arts gets used plenty on Ninjas and stuff; reaction abilities are okay; reasonably priced for what they do).
Carrier: below average (innate Move HP Up is okay.  Highest MP with Equip Armor opens up some potential Golem use; generally mediocre, though).
Stand-alone: below average (Monks without many punch arts are still fairly meh.  Repeating Fist makes them somewhat competitive with Thieves in Chapter 1, I guess).

Thief:
Skillset: bad
R/S/M: above average (Move+2 is the movement ability now, for the most part).
Carrier: Below average (Some use with Battle Skill, but generally...no).
Stand-alone: average (tempted to say above-average but...nah).

Oracle:
Skillset: average (always good, generally not dominant)
R/S/M: average (Move-MP Up is decent)
Carrier: above average; maybe overused (innate Move MP-Up is pretty interesting; In fact I might be lowballing it--might make Oracles seriously competitive with Wizards).
Stand-alone: below average (Their physical is okay, and they can pick up something okay like Paralyze pretty cheap, but...no, they need skills, either on their secondary or from Yin Yang).

Time Mage:
Skillset: above average (Haste is good; Haste 2 and Slow 2 actually look good too, will try soon.  Meteor's good.  Quick, Reflect, etc are awesome in the right situation).
R/S/M: above average (Short Charge and MP Switch are both fine).
Carrier: average (highest MA for a stretch of the game; innate float...has uses.  Much of the time no-Thunder Rod and no multiplier that beats Wizard just crowds them out, though).
Stand-Alone: below average (if you have nobody else with Haste, they're fine.  Haste isn't like revival where you want five people to have it, though).

Geomancer:
Skillset: below average (used when in the class, but yeah).
R/S/M: below average (MAU at 600 JP makes sense; having Attack Up match it at 600 is...okay, fine: symmetry.  But, say, Ninjas are happy to use Martial Arts for assassination and Concentrate for generics.  Knights actually do want Two Swords (or Two Hands since it's cheaper).  Most generic skillsets are either unaffected by AU, or want something else more.  Three playthroughs, three players, and I haven't seen Attack Up once.  Still useful on paper, though, and have seen a bit of Counter Flood).
Carrier: above average (tied for best endgame MA with 4 move, free Ageis Shield evasion, etc).
Stand-alone: average (What'd I give thief?  *checks* average...yeah, works)

Lancer:
Skillset: Above average
R/S/M: Below average (yet to see Dragon Spirit or Defence Up.  Equip Spear is useful if you have a mastered lancer...though will lose to Equip Axe half of the time).
Carrier: Below Average
Stand-alone: Average (short-range jumps are...probably that good, yes.  Spears are ahead of Swords for quite a while).

Mediator:
Skillset: Below average (Talk Skill is...okay now.  Can't in good conscience put it above a lot of the stuff I have filed under Average like Yin-Yang and Item.  Though, sure, faith modification is cool).
R/S/M: Below average (I've yet to see any of them used)
Carrier: Below average (as cool as "stats with a gun" is...for the most part go use Geomancer; elemental is a fine gun replacement much of the time).
Stand-alone: Average (Books hurt.  Guns are guns).

Summoner:
Skillset: Above average-overused (obviously still good, especially lategame once you've been able to pour JP into Short Charge Leviathan or whatever.  Has argument for best skillset, though...dunno).
R/S/M: bad (yet to see Half of MP even used.  What is it now, 400 JP?  Probably still too high).
Carrier: Below average (yeah, the slower speed can be an advantage, but I'm not of a mind to award points for that today, in that mostly what I've seen the slow speed doing is hurt).
Stand-alone: Below average (I have mixed opinions here; if you have an attack summon learned they're frightening; if you don't they're crap).

Dancer:
Skillset: Above Average (Nameless dance)
R/S/M: Average (Move+3...but it's bloody expensive on the wrong side of the job tree, so it's hardly an auto-goto)
Carrier: Average (Carpet Punch Art is...decent).
Stand-alone: Average (you have at least 100 JP; learn Nameless Dance and you won't cry too much about mediocre everything else)

Bard:
Skillset: Average
R/S/M: Average (see comments about Move+3)
Carrier: Average (not the right equipment or gender to really make use of the MA, but speed is speed).
Stand-alone: Above Average (Mmm...harps, for all that it seems to be less of a flock-to-for-physical class than Ninja)

Ninja
Skillset: Bad (You use Throw cause it's range and it's in the class, but otherwise meh).
R/S/M: Average (Two Swords is perfectly useable; Abandon is perfectly useable).
Carrier: Above Average (For PA based skills they're still arguably the best.  For other skills, female ninjas are gamebest speed, which is still interesting).
Stand-alone: overused (I want to say that over three games, Ninja with Martial Arts was the single most used combo).

Samurai
Skillset: Above Average (Competitive for best in game...although lategame only)
R/S/M: Above Average (Two Hands is inexpensive--seen use in all three games.  Blade Grasp is...not Auto-Potion, but still rather good).
Carrier: Bad.
Stand-alone: Below Average (their physical hurts but...less damage than Thieves, less speed than Thieves, less movement than Thieves, and no innate Poach).

Calculator
I'm assuming basically doesn't exist for practical purposes.


--------------------------------------------

EDIT: and now that I've finished that, approximate scorecard:

Bad: 1
Below Average: 2
Average: 4
Above Average: 8
Overused: 16
Uber: 32

Squire: 1+4+8+2 = 15 (11 if they're an average carrier)
Knight: 2+4+8+16 = 30
Archer: 4+8+2+2 = 16
Chemist: 4+8+2+4 = 18
Priest: 16+2+4+2 = 24
Wizard: 8+8+16+8 = 40
Mime: 0+0+0+32 = 32
Monk: 4+4+2+2 = 12
Thief: 1+8+2+4 = 15
Oracle: 4+4+8+2 = 18
Time Mage: 8+8+4+2 = 22
Geomancer: 2+2+8+4 = 16
Lancer: 8+2+2+4 = 16
Mediator: 2+2+2+4 = 10
Summoner: 12+1+2+2 = 17
Dancer: 8+4+4+4 = 20
Bard: 4+4+4+8 = 20
Ninja: 1+4+8+16 = 25
Samurai: 8+8+1+2 = 19

On the low end:
Mediator 10: I'm not really accounting for Brave/Faith modification here, and innate Train may just make them rule in the Deep Dungeon.
Monk 12: Really not that worried about them; I do seem to have the lowest Monk opinion of...just about anyone.
Squire 15 (maybe 11): Them being above average as a carrier is pretty important for their balance (if they are then yes: they're fine); pretty sure they are, and our parties just haven't had the right class mix to make them important, but I still want to see it with my own eyes....

On the high end:
Wizard: 40: There's enough classes competitive with them now that I'm not too worried.  They have plenty of carrier competition.  They have plenty of competition for best support.  Black Magic is good but not all-powerful.  Yeah, you could, say, move Magic Attack Up onto another class, but I don't really see the point.
Mime 32: Mime being good doesn't crowd out other generic jobs at all.
Knight 30: We've talked about various Knight nerfs (like reducing Jump to 2) but none of them have happened for various practical reasons.  At the end of the day I'm not that worried about them; what they do is very different from most other classes.
Ninja: 25: I am wondering if I should be eyeing Ninja; we do seem to have used them a lot.  Orignally they were the best damage class and the fastest class and the most mobile class.  Now Bard gives them a bit of a fight for speed (sort-of...female Ninjas are still faster).  Now Squire gives them a bit of a fight for mobility.  No physical class really fights them for damage, though.
Priest: 24: As Laggy pointed out, some class is going to end up being the inexpensive revival.  Raise is nowhere near as ridiculous as Phoenix Down was.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 06:57:38 AM by metroid composite »

superaielman

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Re: FFT Changes
« Reply #156 on: December 16, 2008, 03:23:25 PM »
I mostly found breaks useful for crippling fighters and later on the optional fights.

Goland 3's the huge one. Dance does a good job there ifyou're willing to Mime rush it, but double speed break's the best way to circumvent all the reraising in that arc in general. A lot of those fights shrug off magical status.
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metroid composite

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Re: FFT Changes
« Reply #157 on: December 16, 2008, 04:35:37 PM »
Squire and Ninja revisited...

Talked with Laggy last night--on the whole we weren't worried about Ninjas in general, just about the endgame Martial Arts Twist Headband, Power Sleeve, Bracer Ninja.  Comparing that to other evadeable physicals...

Martial Arts Ninja: 528
Equip Sword Ninja: 448
Attack Up Ninja (can use Thief Hat with no drop in damage; randomly adds: Don't Act): 416
Two Hands Knight: 390 (randomly casts Ice 2)
Two Hands Geo: 476
Two Hands Squire: 420

(Speeds are 9 for Ninja, 7 for Knight/Geo, 8 for Squire, 11 for Thief Hat Ninja).

Mmm...yeah, martial arts Ninja seems fine.  Now, Ice Brand Black Robe Knight...o_O


Okay, moving on to Squire as a Carrier....

With Jump:

Ninja: 120 Speed, 120 PA
Squire: 110 Speed, 110 PA
Geo: 100 Speed, 125 PA

Speed can be a bad thing--my gut instinct tells me that at my normal levels, Ninjas will act right before the enemy whereas Squire will act right after the enemy, which might make Squire the choice.  However, I don't feel comfortable calling the lowest PA class the best jumper when the main selling point is that it's in the middle speed-wise.

The other argument for Squire here is Jump-Axe.  Namely, Squires (and Geos) don't need Equip Spear, leaving them free to use another support ability (probably Defence Up, since Lancers learn that now).  Still facing roughly equal competition from Geos, though.

Growths:
Squire growths are pretty meh.  Geos beat them in every stat.  Priests beat them in every stat.  Knights beat them in PA and HP (losing MP kinda badly).  Ninjas beat them in PA and Speed (losing HP/MP by a bit).  Granted, I'm okay with this--emphasizes the differences between Thief (speed growth, auto-poach: train in me) and Squire (good equipment for using secondaries--come back to me after training).

Abilities:
Still unfortunate that Accumulate can't give PA+1, MA+1.  Vaguely wondering if we can do something like steal Circle from Ahriman and turn it into an MA+1 ability (originally an MA-2 ability).  Also feels weird that they have MA but no MA based weapons (though...none of Sticks, Staves, or Books really fit).

With Punch Art:

Ninja: 4 move, 120 Speed, 120 PA
Squire: 5 move, 110 Speed, 110 PA (+1 from Battle Axe)
Geo: 4 move, 100 Speed, 125 PA (+1 from Battle Axe)
Dancer: 3 move, 100 speed, 88 PA (+3 from Cashmere) (Auto-Attack Up)
Monk: 4 move, 110 speed, 128 PA (-2 from can't equip Twist Headband) (Auto Martial Arts)

Mmm...just from the extensive Punch Art testing over the past couple weeks...this is a case where you probably do care about the 5 move.  Slightly worse Punch Art damage than a Monk except right after Twist Headband shows up.  Squires are...a thought.  Not the first thought that jumps into my mind for "class to use Punch Art", but maybe I should try it.

With Holy Sword:

The third big physical skillset that you might want to carry and...oh snap, can't use it.

With Dance:

Move 5 means very little.  Speed means very little.

With Yin Yang:

I formerly looked at this for "5 move to compensate for range 1 Life Drain".  The problem is Oracle now has Move MP Up, so they're probably happier using sticks and Move+2.

With Bolt/Ramuh:

I just can't see them as viable pre Black Robe.  Although...wait, Black Robe only gives them effective +2 MA anyhow because their MA is not Wizard.  That said, you don't want fast mages early, so you won't be considering them until Chapter 3 or so anyhow (about when the +1 MA axe shows up).  Still not really feeling the non-Wizard/Oracle here.

Musings on messing with mults:

110 PA/110 MA/110 Speed is kind-of intentional, since they're indistinguishable from 100/100/100 at level 1.  I actually like the fact that Squires don't look that special in Chapter 1, but become interesting again later.

With Meteor/Leviathan:

Getting your speed to actually perfectly match up with the enemy (so that you hit before their next turn) is actually pretty important with these.  You also tend to blow all your MP pretty fast, and Giant Axe/Rune Blade physicals and Yell are better no-MP actions than Priest has to offer.  Higher damage classes can wear Green Beret, but this loses them 20 MP or so from Holy Miter (or 50 MP from Golden Hairpin).

Hm, yeah, seems solid.

With Draw Out:

More speed and move than Geomancer; both things that Draw Out definitely cares about a lot.  No other non-Geo class really competes for the speed+move+MA combo.
Also seems solid.

Move 5 Jump 3
We could easily make this Move 5 Jump 4 to cement Squires as the movement class.  On the other hand, I do find it kind-of neat that there's 4/4 classes and a 5/3 classes--means there's more decisions to be made when looking for movement.

-------------------------------------

Okay, yeah, not too worried about Squire right now; seems like Laggy/my setups may have been combining the wrong stuff with the class.  Though...out of principle I would like to see an MA+1 Accumulate, and possibly some minor stat growth advantage over Geo so that they're not worse growth in every way (10 MP growth?  Alternatively, 48/48 PA/MA?  Or Geos could have their MP growth lowered to 12--MP is Geo's "bad" stat).
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 05:09:17 PM by metroid composite »

superaielman

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Re: FFT Changes
« Reply #158 on: December 20, 2008, 05:03:33 PM »
LFT: Done. C4 was largely a breeze in spite of the improvements Laggy made. Nice try with Hashy. "Damage split?" *Breakbreakbreakbreak* Balk 2 was really damn tough with generics till I brought in a chemist with weapon break. Ended the snipe problem, fight was managable from there. Balk is also an idiot who rushed ahead of his support.

Altima's support needs to be 20 levels higher- Ultima demons are good on paper, just not when they're that far behind level wise. Fought her with just straight up damage, had no real problems. Damn fine hack in general.
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<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

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Re: FFT Changes
« Reply #159 on: December 22, 2008, 06:21:43 PM »
Changelog
* Foxbird: MP cost from 20 to 12, brave decrease changed from 30 to 40
* Blind Rage: MP cost from 16 to 14, CT from 5 to 3
* Zombie: CT from 5 to 2, MP cost from 20 to 10
* Confusion Song CT changed from 5 to 4
* Life Drain range increased from 1 to 2
* Cheer Song and Slow Dance go from CT 10 to CT 12
* Last Dance and Last Song go from CT 20 to CT 15
* Last Dance accuracy goes from 100% to 50%
* Heal now also cures Death Sentence
* Insult accuracy increased from +80 to +90
* Negotiate fixed (now works properly)
* Papyrus Plate moved to Ch4 Start, now WP 16
* Yet more JP cost changes

And with that, I'm going to upload the ISO and call this the final release. There may be one more version in the future (featuring Deep Dungeon edits) but by far and large I'm feeling pretty satisfied with the mod as a whole. Main post updated with all changes, ISO will be up when it's up.
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

Laggy

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Re: FFT Changes
« Reply #160 on: December 23, 2008, 03:53:40 AM »
[link removed]
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 06:09:13 PM by Laggy »
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

superaielman

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Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
« Reply #161 on: December 23, 2008, 02:33:47 PM »
Laggy you whore, you're tempting me to build a uber Mediator of physical doom. *Shakes FIST* Too bad you can't two sword/hand books, that'd kick ass. Attack up works though.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 02:35:40 PM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

metroid composite

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Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
« Reply #162 on: December 24, 2008, 10:57:15 PM »
Laggy you whore, you're tempting me to build a uber Mediator of physical doom. *Shakes FIST* Too bad you can't two sword/hand books, that'd kick ass. Attack up works though.
Book-Mediators are tier 2 in everything.
Tier 2 damage
Tier 2 speed
Tier 2 range
Tier 3 move/jump
Tier 2 for supports (doesn't work with two hands)
Tier 2 for WP (Jump and Charge are...okay with books, but there's better)
Tier 3 for formula ((MA+PA)/2 is probably the worst formula in the game)


Hmm...well I'm not that worried about class balance for the moment, which means the next balance lens is a smaller granularity:

Squire...
Quote
Accumulate 150
Hmm...my opinion of it is pretty low, although maybe I'm reacting to the fact that the only Squire setup I've seen has been magic-based.  If a Squire has Punch Art secondary, for instance, this sounds valueable.  Also does amusing things with Mimes.
Quote
Dash              75
Used; non-evadeable attack that can cause knockback.  Not a particularly good move, mind, but something you occasionally use if it's in the skillset.  On the other hand: probably comes up less than neo-Spin Fist, which is 50 JP--granted, Squire JP is practically free thanks to all the guests, whereas Monk JP has a lot of other demands.
Quote
Throw Stone       90
Range.  Knock people out of charm/confusion/sleep without dealing much damage.  Trigger allied Auto Potion/Sunken State.  Gets stepped on a little by neo-Heal, but not too much since it is cheaper and has a lot of other effects.  Seems fine.
Quote
Heal             150 -- now cures all negative status, except for stuff that isn't really status like Dead, Charging, and Treasure Chest
On paper sounds pretty sexy now.  Still doesn't feel like a particularly noteworthy move.
*There isn't that much status out there.
*Revival is needed to prevent permanent loss of a character.  Status curing...you use your turn to let them get turns again, but half the time you could use your turn for something else and wait for the status to wear off instead.
*It's not multitarget like Esuna/Stigma Magic.
Granted, the move is fine.  Reasonable cost; unique niche.
Quote
Yell 250 -- can no longer self-target
Definitely feels like the best skill in the skillset by a good margin.  Also not strictly inferior to Cheer Song--the applications we've had for it were more like "I yell+wait on the one living person with revival", which will speed them up faster than Cheer Song will (thanks to the now 12 CT).
Quote
Counter Tackle   180
Overcosted.  Granted, I can totally understand Laggy not wanting to change 10 different Squire jobs.
Quote
Equip Axe 170
Solid.  Generally an earlygame/midgame support, although Jump users find it useful at endgame (not aftergame, though).
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... Monster Skill: 100
Honestly, we need to try parties with monsters before I can really comment.
Quote
Move +1: 300
Most common use of Squire JP.  At the same time: not overpowered.
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Move-Get Exp: 200
Very niche at that cost, but I don't want to push the ability too hard; if nothing else the extra animation time to show the exp gain after every movement is lame.
Quote
Gained EXP Up 350
Hmm...this may be a playstyle thing, but so far the people who really wanted to use this were:
*People who were underlevelled and trying to catch up...and couldn't afford the JP cost due to being desperately behind in JP too.
*Character who was trying to emphasize high stats (early Mime growths -> Gained EXP Up) and also couldn't afford the JP cost due to being desperately behind in JP.

On the one hand, it's a little tempting to lower the cost.  On the other hand, I really want to keep away from Gained JP Up syndrome, so it's tempting to just leave it overcosted.

Chemist...
Quote
Potion            30
Fine.
Quote
Hi-Potion        200
Pretty sure I've seen it learned; there's definitely a temptation to skip over the middle ability, though the fact that Hi-Potion is buyable in Chapter 1 definitely helps a lot; makes it an earlygame ability.
Quote
X-Potion         300
Fine.
Quote
Ether            100
The one thing that bothers me about it is that it's not storebought until midway through Chapter 2.  That said, it's been used; hell, we got Delita/Algus to use them.
Quote
Hi-Ether         200
Not sure we've seen much of it, but haven't had a lot of dedicated Item user; looks okay on paper.
Quote
Elixir: 300
Master chemist -> useful.
Quote
... Antidote: 20
There isn't a whole lot that JP costs can do here.  Even against Balk-I I'd much rather have multitarget poison healing.
Quote
Eye Drop: 10
The problem with Eye Drop is that the enemies that use it fail at evasion.  If enemy Knights made you blind, that would be neat.
Quote
Echo Grass: 30
Fine, especially as you can't silence Item, and there's more enemy Oracles now.
Quote
Maiden's Kiss: 40
Sure.
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Soft: 50 JP
Sure.
Quote
Holy Water: 60 JP
Given the chain reaction potential and the fact that Remedy doesn't cure it, yeah, should be the most expensive.
Quote
Remedy: 200 JP
Heal but costs more JP and money and heals fewer statuses...except in a good skillset and has range.  Reasonable tradeoff.
Quote
Phoenix Down: 250 JP
Seems healthy at that level.  Used less than Raise, but still used.
Quote
Auto Potion: 700 JP
Possibly still undercosted for what it does; comparable expensive reactions are 900 JP Sunken State, 700 JP Blade Grasp, 1200 JP Hamedo.  I'm okay with pushing AP a little, though--it is pretty interesting; opens up strategies like "target elemental so that you hit your teammate and hopefully heal them".
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Throw Item: 250 JP
Could come down more.  "Stick Item on a good unit...like a Knight or Ninja" is all well and good, but as we've found there's definitely competition for supports (Two Hands, Concentrate/Martial Arts).
Quote
Maintenance: 100 JP
Solid.
Quote
Equip Change       0
JP cost is pretty irrelevant--mostly useful when combined with aftergame stuff (perfumes, Stone Gun, etc).
Quote
Move-Find Item   100
Whatever.

Knight...
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Defend 50
I forgot this exists, and I've been known to spend a lot of the earlygame without a support now.  At the same time, the Equip: X and Weapon Guard are so much better than Defend that maybe it was the right move to skip it.
Quote
Head Break: 150 JP
Solid way of dealing damage against Knights.
Quote
Armor Break: 250 JP
Dunno why this is more expensive--the average enemy Knight wears a Crystal Helmet and a Linen Robe >_>.  Better in Chapter 1 I guess.
Quote
Shield Break: 150 JP
x_x
Quote
Weapon Break: 250 JP
Yeah, 250's fine here.
Quote
Magic Break: 250 JP
Weren't we going to drop this back to 150 now that it's stuck with a 50% hit rate?
Quote
Speed Break: 250 JP
Yup, fine.
Quote
Power Break: 150 JP
Maintenance Knight/Thief vs Enemy Knights this is good.
Quote
Mind Break: 150 JP
Mind?  Enemy knights don't use their minds!  (Useful for uhh...learning Zodiac I guess).
Quote
Weapon Guard: 250 JP
Solid--my former complaint about WG (one person goes Knight, and then four mages learn it and keep it set for three chapters) is kinda washed away by the fact that
1. 250 is a lot more to get from spillover than 200--nearly double.
2. Half the mages use Equip Shield instead.
Quote
Equip Armor: 500 JP
Useful in exactly one setup (earlygame Monk) but yeah, the silliness of that combo merits the 500 JP.
Quote
Equip Shield: 250 JP
Respectable; the value of the ability has shifted somewhat from original FFT--more of a midgame ability, as opposed to a lategame combo engine.
Quote
Equip Sword: 250 JP
Surprisingly good in unexpected locations; often what fighters should save for (instead of Equip Shield--that's more of a mage ability).

Archer...
Quote
Ignore Height: 400 JP
Bleh.  None of our characters ever bothered to learn it.  I'm starting to think Move+1 is overall better (for all that Ignore Height rapes 5-6 fights), and Move+1 is cheaper in a job that gets free spillover JP.  Wondering if this should be 250 JP.
Quote
Charge+1 100 JP ctr->1
Fine ability; more of a lategame ability, since 1ct turn gaps don't exist in the earlygame, but rear their head eventually.  Well...I guess it's noteworhty for cancelling the fast-charging spells (Haste 2, Slow 2, Reflect)
Quote
Charge+2 150 JP ctr->2
Similarly lategame, although can be relevant pretty early (speed 7 can first-turn Charge+2 on speed 6)
Quote
Charge+3 200 JP ctr->3
An earlygame darling just because it's still fast enough to pre-empt Fire/Ice/Bolt/neo-Haste.
Quote
Charge+4 250 JP ctr->4
At speed 6, move-wait, move-act lets you charge+4 on enemies who move-acted first turn.  Can pre-empt Fire2/Ice2/Bolt2/Fire3/Ice3/Bolt3.
Quote
Charge+5 300 JP ctr->6
6 isn't prohibitively slow; can pre-empt summons, level 4 black magic.
Quote
Charge+7 400 JP ctr->8
Technically fast enough to hit every enemy in the game...sometimes...if you get your CT perfect.
Quote
Charge+10, 500 JP ctr->11
Fast enough to hit speed 9 enemies...which is maybe half the enemies in Chapter 4 (but misses more than half of the bosses).
Quote
Charge+20, 700 JP ctr->15
Awesome when enemies are speed 6 (though won't be able to hit them if they even get as out-of-sync as move-wait).  I suspect use will be pretty rare, though; 700 JP is steep for earlygame--by the time you have that even if you spend on nothing else, you'll have maybe five fights in which you can do nasty things to...roughly half the enemies but only if they don't get hit by Haste or ever move-wait or anything like that.
Quote
Speed Save: 200 JP
Umm...more bait for Throw Stone Abuse (nevermind that Yell is in the same job)!  Yeah, speed save's actually pretty interesting, but not that powerful outside of really weird setups (well...and Chantage of course).  Probably good on a Knight, actually (it's not like I'm not already hitting them with splash damage and not caring).
Quote
Arrow Guard      450
A tad expensive (it's chibi blade grasp that you can reasonably get through spillover for a mage).  At the same time, does need to cost more than stuff like Weapon Guard.
Quote
Equip Crossbow: 250 JP
Haven't seen it learned yet; fundamentally less exciting than Equip Sword, since the auto Two Hands/Two Swords classes don't do jack with it (to say nothing of Agrias and friehds).  Geos and Monks tend to be happy with Wave Fist/Elemental for range.  Lancers may not have range right away, but they still lose a lot of damage from X-bows.  Squires and Archers can already equip them.

Right, what does this leave us with?
Knights (sure I guess, cool with Battle Skill too)
Pre Gun/Book Mediators (yeah, better than Knives)
Priests (well...better than Staves)
EDIT: Dancers (Sure I guess, although personally I'd boost Wiznaibus damage instead)
Other mages (Eww...2 PA)

Ehh...it's alright I guess but could probably be dropped to 150 JP-100 JP range.  Equip Axe is 170, and arguably better so... >_>
Quote
Concentrate      400
Arguably the best Archer ability still; wouldn't worry about overpoweredness since there's fights with no evasion (zodiacs) moves that ignore evasion (swordskills) moves that don't get boosted by it (black magic) and it makes the game more fun (whee, no missing).
« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 11:22:35 PM by metroid composite »

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Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
« Reply #163 on: December 25, 2008, 05:18:38 AM »
I would not consider it a bad thing if this kind of analysis were to continue.  Proceed.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
« Reply #164 on: December 25, 2008, 05:45:50 AM »
Quote
If enemy Knights made you blind, that would be neat.

How's about replacing one of the Breaks with Eye Break, or something like that? Inflicts Blind in a context worth caring about, which has always been the status' prime failure as you observe. I've never cared about the fact that FFT lacks a blind blocker before Chapter 4, but with that I might (and consequently, a another Blind blocker should probably be made if this hasn't happened yet).

Granted, creating entirely new moves seems to be a thing which the hack has shied from, so for that reason alone I imagine this suggestion would probably be rejected, but it's an interesting idea.

Alternatively, if you can fix this in code, more enemy Knights with Yin-Yang.

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Maybe.

metroid composite

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Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
« Reply #165 on: December 25, 2008, 07:03:31 AM »
I would not consider it a bad thing if this kind of analysis were to continue.  Proceed.
I intend to, but...yeah, estimated 10+ hour exercise and all; will break into digestible post sizes.


Granted, creating entirely new moves seems to be a thing which the hack has shied from, so for that reason alone I imagine this suggestion would probably be rejected, but it's an interesting idea.
Yeah, "new" moves have been modified old moves; see: Negotiate now adding stop (instead of get some shiny gil).  That said, last I checked Blind 2 was sitting unused in Zalera's skillset; wonder if it can be given the Battle Skill formula.


Quote
Alternatively, if you can fix this in code, more enemy Knights with Yin-Yang.
Can be set quite easily.  The trick is that for enemies you get to specify one job, and a job level for that job.  You automatically have the prerequisites for the class too, but nothing more than that (so original FFT would set, say, "Mime 1" on Balk's Chemist to get him just tons of JP).

What this means is that enemy Knights with Yin Yang will either have no Battle Skill or no Yin Yang (unless we give them "Calculator: 1", in which case they'll probably know one battle skill...and job level 8 worth of Yin Yang...and have "invite me" plastered on their forehead).  Knights without Battle Skill is fine, but it does mean that some of my other initial brainstorms (say, giving Yin Yang to UBS2 Lancers) wouldn't work at all (they'd have no Jump learned).

The other general concern is that Yin-Yang is scary.  Definitely something I noticed with some of the new Chapter 4 enemies (and no, they weren't casting Blind; in fact I imagine it's pretty hard to get an AI with "Oracle 6" to cast blind).  Granted, could probably set "Oracle 1", which makes "only learned Blind" a fairly likely outcome.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2008, 07:08:33 AM by metroid composite »

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Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
« Reply #166 on: December 25, 2008, 08:05:39 AM »
Yeah cool, just as you know I like reading your break downs and want you to know that there is an audience >_>

Forcing Blind onto enemy knights sounds with the solution there a bit forced there, it might be a more challenging thing, but it lacks the finesse the other changes to the game have (in my opinion anyway).  Would think the better option would be more to make Oracles more prevalent, which is already done (More early?  Could be way harsh as noted though....).  Would make me cry at Execution site to have like Time Mage 1/Oracle 1 there or something with all those knights.
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Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
« Reply #167 on: December 25, 2008, 04:39:24 PM »
Yeah cool, just as you know I like reading your break downs and want you to know that there is an audience >_>

Agreed.

I'm learning a lot from reading these about FFT itself that I never really knew from my casual playthroughs of the game.

It's really interesting in some ways, it's like getting a fresh look at how all the FFT-ites started getting into game mechanics in the first place. I guess that makes it an interesting meta-study? (A study of the study-ers?)

-Djinn

metroid composite

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Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
« Reply #168 on: December 27, 2008, 06:01:13 PM »
...Monk
Quote
* Move increased from 3 to 4
* Acquired innate [Move-HP Up]
Feels a little odd that Monks get 4/4 move and Move HP Up (all the other classes with a special innate movement are 3/3: Archer, Oracle, Time Mage).  Probably not unbalancing, mind (and yeah, there's thematic problems with Monks having less mobility than Knights, and Monks don't play very well with 3 move).
Quote
  ... Spin Fist: 50 JP vertical tolerance increased from 0 to 1
Hmm...has actually performed not terribly; compared to 100 JP abilities, wouldn't get it over Repeating Fist, probably would consider getting it before Secret Fist or Stigma Magic if it had a 100 JP cost.
Quote
  ... Repeating Fist: 100 JP
Feels like the best of the 100 JP abilities; on the other hand, if you don't start training in Monk until Chapter 3 you'll never learn it thanks to the earlygame-focused formula (and will learn the other two 100 JP abilities).  Should probably stay where it is JP-wise I guess.
Quote
  ... Wave Fist: 200 JP
Seems fine.
Quote
  ... Earth Slash: 500 JP
Would still get learned at 600 JP but...whatever: consistency.
Quote
  ... Secret Fist: 100 JP hit rate increased from +50 to +70
Has on-paper applications; kills Knights on paper.  Gives 3-turn effective transparent to allies, on paper.  In practice I never got too sophisticated with it.
Quote
  ... Stigma Magic: 100 JP
*looks* huh, can this miss if it has worst compatibility?  Formula is 120+PA.  With status magic, compatibility mutliplies the entire formula including the 120; not sure if this is true for Punch Arts as well, but I think it is.  This is potentially obnoxious since you can't actually check the hit percentage on Stigma Magic, and will be expecting it to be 100%; worth testing.
Quote
  ... Chakra: 250 JP
The value of MP healing is inflated in LFT thanks to enemy Knights, so this is fine.
Quote
  ... Revive: 400 JP, now has 1 vertical tolerance
I like keeping this expensive so that Punch Art is not emphasized as a primarily revival skillset (wheras White Magic clearly is now, and Item...still centers around Phoenix Down too).   Obviously still used.
Quote
  ... HP Restore: 400 JP
Seen plenty of mages pick this up through spillover; definitely fine.
Quote
  ...Counter: 300 JP
Seems fine at that value; Weapon Guard's 250 and overall somewhat competitive.
Quote
Hamedo          1200
Still learned it one playthrough; performed great.  That said, Hamedo does nothing against monsters, which is annoying, and means that aftergame use for the reaction is pretty questionable.  Not sure that a reaction with no aftergame use should be the most expensive reaction in the game.
Quote
Martial Arts     200
On the one hand, irks me how Ninjas just pick this up for free.  On the other hand, whenever I've used an actual Monk, the extra 200 JP requirement before class change already hurts.
Quote
Move-HP Up       300
Overcosted; might see earlygame use at 150.  That said, guessing Laggy wants to keep this at the same JP cost as move-MP Up, so...oh well, no big deal.


...Priest
Quote
Cure              50 JP - MP cost 4, CT 2, mult 14
Quote
Cure 2           200 JP - MP cost 8, CT 4, mult 20
Quote
Cure 3           300 JP - MP cost 12, CT 6, mult 30
Quote
Cure 4           500 JP - MP cost 16, CT 8, mult 40, AoE 3v2
The MP costs feel a bit on the low side to me...hmm (originally was 6/10/16/20, so I guess they've always been low).  Honestly, yeah Cure1 isn't worth as much MP as Bolt1, so I guess the change makes sense.

JP Costs...the first two follow the Bolt1/Bolt2/Bolt3/Bolt4 line, and then the last two don't.  It's also noteworthy that Cure 4 can be learned blue-mage style, so it's tempting to up the JP cost to 600.  Otherwise...on the one hand, Cure 2 and Cure 3 are close in JP, but on the other hand they both have advantages.

Multipliers...Given that MP goes 4,8,12,16 and CT goes 2,4,6,8, there's a vague temptation to make Cure 1 have a 10 mult.  What would be the outcome of this?  Hmm...Moogle would be competitive with Cure 1 again (triple the MP cost, but a bit more healing).  Cure 1 would do less crowding on the later cures, encouraging people to spend actual JP on the cure series (though...granted, Cure 1 to Cure 3 is already roughly 70 healing to 150 healing, so...nearly identical to the gap between Hi-Potion and X-Potion; Cure1 to Cure2 was 70 to 100, though, which is less inspiring).  Puts a bit more emphasis on using Short Charge rather than Magic Attack Up with white magic (Cure 4 already made a decent case for that; it's more that MAU Cure1 no longer matches Short-charge Cure2.  Raise and friends also prefer Short Charge; Holy prefers MAU).  Eh, I don't have a strong opinion either way.

CT: I can think of cases where you'd want a CT9 cure (someone's going to eat a Leviathan and survive, so you want your cure to go off after the Leviathan) but that's unusual, and only relevant if your Priest is in exact timing with the enemy summoner (rare given the 20 speed multiplier gap).  Otherwise...there's charge, but that's C+7 (8ctr) or C+10 (11ctr) and 11 is a bit ridiculous, so 8 ctr already covers all bases there.
Quote
Raise            100 JP, 4ctr, 10 mp, 180 accuracy
Token inexpensive overused revival ability.  100 JP is the right cost, as it's guaranteed to be learnable as soon as you unlock priest.
Quote
Raise 2        450 JP, 7ctr, 30 mp, 250 accuracy
Obviously a very good move.  Feels weird that the JP has been changed from 500 to 450 (not an important difference at all--10% JP difference is barely noticeable, just...went from a nice round number to a distinctly not round number).  30 mp and 7ctr keeps regular Raise still having value after Raise 2 is learned.
Quote
Reraise      350 JP, 170 accuracy, 4CT, 16 MP
Hmm...less accurate than Raise, costs more MP, and brings people back with less HP.  I guess the advantages are being able to cast it early, and the fact that a reraised person is guaranteed to not miss their turn.  However, I don't think it should be close to Raise 2 in JP cost since, while they do fill entirely different roles, Raise 2 is obviously the more powerful move.
Quote
Regen          70 JP, 200 accuracy, 4 MP, 4CT, 2v0
Seems fine; I realize we used a lot more protect/shell, but I suspect that's a playstyle issue (Regen is arguably the buff of choice on an allied Knight, for instance).
Quote
Protect          70 JP, 200 accuracy, 6 MP, 4CT, 2v0
Quote
Shell          70 JP, 200 accuracy, 6 MP, 4CT, 2v0
Unchanged; have always been useful but hardly overpowered.
Quote
Protect 2         250 JP, 250 accuracy, 12 MP, 2CT, 3v2
Quote
Shell 2         250 JP, 250 accuracy, 12 MP, 2CT, 3v2
One thing I hadn't realized: Protect 2 and Shell 2 are filed under Blue Magic, so you can teach it by casting them on each other.  Honestly, on paper these look just better; in practice JP costs have led to probably more use of regular Protect/Shell (especially since you get lots of physical characters setting White Magic secondary for Raise now, so they don't have much MP or JP to spare).
Quote
Wall          280 JP, 190 accuracy, 6 MP, 4 ctr, 1
The lack of multitarget keeps this from being too competitive with shell/protect.  Has a niche for adding shell+protect, though I think everyone's skipped it so far.
Quote
Esuna       180 JP, 190 accuracy, 10 MP, 3ctr, 2v2
Hard to overpower status curing, though always nice to have.  (Never realized it was 3ctr, 3 range, and 2v2; funky).
Quote
Holy          900 JP, 50 mult, 60 MP, 7ctr
Can't really argue with the nerfs (I was known to learn Holy as my second skill in white magic in original FFT.  Granted, a big part of this was Mathskill applications, and Holy isn't calculable anymore).  This version is still useable, but not the focus of White Magic (which is fine--white mage skillset actually healing-focused, imagine >_>).
Quote
Regenerator      200
Unbelievably crappy reaction, but hey I've learned it through spillover more than once, so I guess the price is right.
Quote
Magic Defend Up 400
Huh, this hasn't been changed JP-wise?  I mean yeah: no longer has to compete with Gained JP Up...and and Magic Attack Up now costs 50% more (600 JP).  But still...can't remember anyone using MDU (doesn't help that a defence-focused character will probably go Knight and thus have no use for MDU).  Granted, shouldn't be 200 JP; it is clearly better than Regenerator.  Might be 300 JP material.


Blah, I'm stopping there; too much stuff to write about Priests.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 06:11:49 PM by metroid composite »

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Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
« Reply #169 on: December 27, 2008, 09:37:19 PM »
Stigma Magic can miss with worst zodiac, yes. I've never seen this as a problem since those people are so good at healing certain statues (Sleep, Charm, Confuse) just by attacking each other for 50% damage.

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Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
« Reply #170 on: December 29, 2008, 06:53:47 PM »
Just out of curiosity, is there anyone running through this right now other than super/Excal? (Yes, I'm trolling for feedback. And mc doesn't count, because he's been involved every step. >_>)
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

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Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
« Reply #171 on: December 29, 2008, 08:59:05 PM »
I downloaded it, but it had no Laggy in it.  It was still FFT.  Had to delete it before it ate my computer up.


...I suppose if you're really nice and can provide me the stuff to do it, I'll emulate it and give Super his fucking playthrough.  ;_;
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

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Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
« Reply #172 on: December 29, 2008, 09:01:52 PM »
You don't notice the changes until you actually play the game, OK. There were no graphical changes. >_>
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

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Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
« Reply #173 on: December 30, 2008, 12:21:44 AM »
I'm pretty sure he knows. He probably also doesn't care.

This being said, if you can hack in a beginning team of Almas for him he can finally start that challenge.

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Re: FFT Changes (complete! LFT available for download!)
« Reply #174 on: December 30, 2008, 01:43:16 AM »
That's a gameshark thing rather than a mod thing. I wouldn't have the slightest clue how to do that unfortunately.
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.