LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)

[Laggy]

R/S/M doesn't have to abide by their JP at all. You can set anything you want even if they don't have it learned.

I'll post a monster list later, sure.

Cruelty... yeah it's the DD, you're allowed to be >_> I mean, I'm not aiming for every fight to be fought armed to the teeth, and amusement factor should always take priority, but there's nothing stopping you from being funny AND sadistic at the same time. Aftergame dungeon and all that. (One of the ideas I have in my head is a 3 bard/3 dancer/zodiac mime fight, if that's any indication >_>)

[metroid composite]

How cruel/not should we aim for? I'd kinda tend towards superbossy fights in general (it's the DD), but I don't want to make anything completely out of whack with LFT.

To give you an idea, IIRC Beowulf's sidequest now has a fight where you face 5 mastered Time Mages with Chantages called Ko (and by most reports this isn't the hardest fight in the sidequest).

So...yeah, it's fair to say the gloves are off.

R/S/M doesn't have to abide by their JP at all. You can set anything you want even if they don't have it learned.

Notably you can set their secondary and primary too.  (i.e. "Elfboy" in the Beowulf sidequest is a male geomancer using a female geomancer sprite, with Dark Magic primary and Holy Magic secondary).  Certain special skillsets like Izlude's version of Jump are auto-mastered.

Other stuff you can set:
Immortal Flag: means they can't be invited and have stars above their head when they die.  I believe it immunes a couple other statuses like Death and Chicken too.
Zodiac Flag: HPx10, MPx10.

[Laggy]

NOTE: The first post has been updated to include this information.

Code: [Select]

NAME ABILITY 1 ABILITY 2 ABILITY 3 MONSTER SKILL REACTION
Chocobo Choco Attack Choco Cure Choco Esuna Choco Ball Counter
Black Chocobo Choco Attack Choco Ball Choco Esuna Choco Meteor Counter
Red Chocobo Choco Attack Choco Ball Choco Meteor Choco Esuna Counter


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Goblin Tackle Eye Gouge Goblin Punch Stop Bracelet Counter Tackle
Black Goblin Tackle Turn Punch Goblin Punch Stop Bracelet Counter Tackle
Gobbledeguck Tackle Eye Gouge Goblin Punch Mutilate Counter Tackle


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Bomb Bite Self Destruct Shock Spark Meatbone Slash
Grenade Bite Self Destruct Small Bomb Flame Attack Meatbone Slash
Explosive Bite Self Destruct Spark Small Bomb Meatbone Slash


Code: [Select]

Red Panther Scratch Poison Nail Allure Cat Kick Catch
Cuar Scratch Cat Kick Poison Nail Blaster Catch
Vampire Scratch Poison Nail Blaster Blood Suck Catch


Code: [Select]

Pisco Demon Tentacle Black Ink Chakra Mind Blast Counter Flood
Squidlarkin Tentacle Mind Blast Chakra Odd Soundwave Counter Flood
Mindflare Tentacle Black Ink Odd Soundwave Level Blast Counter Flood


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Skeleton Knife Hand Thunder Soul Revive Aqua Soul Arrow Guard
Bone Scratch Knife Hand Aqua Soul Revive Ice Soul Arrow Guard
Living Bone Knife Hand Ice Soul Revive Wind Soul Arrow Guard


Code: [Select]

Ghoul Throw Spirit Sleep Touch Revive Shadow Stitch MP Switch
Gust Throw Spirit Zombie Touch Revive Drain Touch MP Switch
Revnant Throw Spirit Drain Touch Revive Grease Touch MP Switch


Code: [Select]

Flotiball Wing Attack Death Sentence Difference Look of Devil Finger Guard
Ahriman Wing Attack Float Look of Devil Circle Finger Guard
Plague Wing Attack Reflect Look of Devil Look of Fright Finger Guard


Code: [Select]

Juravis Scratch Up Feather Bomb <Nothing> Tornado Hamedo
Steel Hawk Scratch Up Feather Bomb <Nothing> Beak Hamedo
Cocatoris Scratch Up Beak <Nothing> Beaking Hamedo


Code: [Select]

Uribo Straight Dash Pooh Oink Allure Critical Quick
Porky Straight Dash Pooh Nose Bracelet Oink Critical Quick
Wildbow Straight Dash Nose Bracelet Oink Please Eat Critical Quick


Code: [Select]

Woodman Leaf Dance Life Spirit Protect Spirit Silf Counter Magic
Trent Leaf Dance Magic Spirit Calm Spirit Fairy Counter Magic
Taiju Leaf Dance Life Spirit Magic Spirit Quake Counter Magic


Code: [Select]

Bull Demon Shake Off Mimic Titan Wave Fist Wave Around Blade Grasp
Minitaurus Shake Off Gather Power Wave Fist Mimic Titan Blade Grasp
Sacred Shake Off Gather Power Wave Around Blow Fire Blade Grasp


Code: [Select]

Morbol Tentacle Lick <Nothing> Bad Bracelet HP Restore
Ochu Tentacle Goo <Nothing> Bad Bracelet HP Restore
Great Morbol Tentacle Bad Bracelet <Nothing> Moldball Virus HP Restore


Code: [Select]

Behemoth Stab Up Sudden Cry <Nothing> Giga Flare Damage Split
King Behemoth Stab Up Sudden Cry <Nothing> Hurricane Damage Split
Dark Behemoth Stab Up Sudden Cry <Nothing> Ulmaguest Damage Split


Code: [Select]

Dragon Dash Tail Swing <Nothing> Thund. Bracelet Dragon Spirit
Blue Dragon Dash Ice Bracelet <Nothing> Thund. Bracelet Dragon Spirit
Red Dragon Dash Fire Bracelet <Nothing> Thund. Bracelet Dragon Spirit


Code: [Select]

Hyudra Triple Attack Triple Bracelet <Nothing> Triple Flame Regenerator
Hydra Triple Attack Triple Flame <Nothing> Triple Thunder Regenerator
Tiamat Triple Bracelet Triple Thunder <Nothing> Dark Whisper Regenerator

(The following apply to all monsters except Hyudras, Hydras and Tiamats)
* HP, PA, and MA Growth multiplied by 2/3 (rounded up)
* Speed Growth multiplied by 3/4 (rounded up)
* Move and Jump increased by 1
* Innate [Monster Skill] given

* Bombs, Grenades, and Explosives have Start: Reraise
* Flotiballs, Ahrimans, and Plagues have actual MP scores (to effectively use Difference and to cast Float and Reflect)
* Juravii, Steel Hawks, and Cocatorii have actual MP scores and nerfed MA stats (to cast Tornado at a sane damage)
* Uribos, Porkies and Wildbows have Always: Haste
* Woodmen, Trents, and Taijus have Always: Regen
* Woodmen, Trents, and Taijus have actual MP scores and nerfed MA stats (ditto, except for Silf/Fairy/Quake. Note that they absorb Earth; Taiju in particular has lower MP and MA than the other two)

* Choco Meteor multiplier increased from 4 to 5
* Choco Cure multiplier increased from 3 to 5
* Goblin Punch hit rate increased from 35 to 65
* Turn Punch area increased from 2v1 to 3v1
* Eye Gouge now inflicts Confusion as well as Darkness, hit rate increased from 45 to 75
* Self Destruct area increased from 3v3 to 4v3
* Flame Attack multiplier increased from 3 to 8
* Spark multiplier increased from 2 to 4, now adds Reraise (25%)
* Cat Kick 1-8 damage range increased to 1-20
* Poison Nail now inflicts Slow as well as Poison, hit rate increased from 40 to 70
* Black Ink range increased from 2 to 3, no longer inflicts Blind, now deals damage (MA*3) (area is still 3v2)
* Odd Soundwave range increased from 0 to 3, area increased from 3v1 to 4v1
* Thunder/Aqua/Ice Soul multipliers increased from 2 to 4
* Wind Soul multiplier increased from 3 to 6
* Zombie Touch range increased from 1 to 2, hit rate increased from 45 to 70
* Sleep Touch range increased from 1 to 2, hit rate increased from 40 to 60
* Drain Touch range increased from 1 to 2
* Grease Touch range increased from 1 to 2, area increased from 1v2 to 2v2, hit rate increased from 50 to 70, now inflicts Slow as well as Oil
* Circle hit rate increased from 55 to 65, MA damage increased from 2 to 6
* Death Sentence hit rate increased from 40 to 60
* Feather Bomb multiplier increased from 2 to 9 (note: reflects MA nerf)
* Beaking hit rate increased from 45 to 75, PA damage increased from 2 to 6
* Nose Bracelet hit rate increased from 40 to 70
* Oink range increased from 1 to 3
* Pooh area increased from 1v1 to 2v1
* Leaf Dance area increased from 2v0 to 3v3, multiplier increased from 3 to 12 (note: reflects MA nerf)
* Protect Spirit area increased from 2v0 to 3v3, hit rate increased from 45 to 75
* Calm Spirit area increased from 2v0 to 3v3, hit rate increased from 45 to 75
* Life Spirit area increased from 2v0 to 3v3, multiplier increased from 2 to 14 (note: reflects MA nerf)
* Magic Spirit area increased from 2v0 to 3v3, multiplier increased from 1 to 10 (note: reflects MA nerf)
* Goo range increased from 1 to 3, area increased from 1v1 to 2v1
* Tail Swing 1-15 damage range increased to 1-25
* Triple Thunder multiplier increased from 12 to 20 (note that Tiamats no longer have Triple Flame)

[superaielman]

How cruel/not should we aim for? I'd kinda tend towards superbossy fights in general (it's the DD), but I don't want to make anything completely out of whack with LFT.

To give you an idea, IIRC Beowulf's sidequest now has a fight where you face 5 mastered Time Mages with Chantages called Ko (and by most reports this isn't the hardest fight in the sidequest).

So...yeah, it's fair to say the gloves are off.

That was the easist fight in the series. It just required having a lot of blitzing offense or status.

I'll work on a battle or two for the DD. Should be fun.

[Laggy]

I know that FFT battles choose between different possibilities for each slot (forget if it's two or three for DD fights). Can I make special R/S/M/equips for say, either a Knight or a Squire, who occupy the same unit slot? e.g. a Knight with a certain fixed setup, or a Squire with a certain fixed setup?

Missed this.

Yes, you can. Although honestly I'm leaning towards fixed fights myself (that is, the same enemies for a given setup) - there's already the random factor in that you can draw any 1 of 4 fights per floor, and it's just less work... >_> But if you find it critical for whatever sadism you have in mind, I won't stop you.

[metroid composite]

...Wizard

* MA Multiplier decreased from 150 to 140

Seems to be working fairly well.  I wonder about them versus Oracles right now due to Move MP Up, but they're still clearly the choice in assassination missions, and definitely have arguments outside of assassinations, so I'm not that worried.

* [Bolt 2] MP cost increased from 10 to 12
* [Fire 2] MP cost decreased from 12 to 10

Yeah, Fire 2 does need help more than the other two.

* [Fire 3], [Bolt 3], and [Ice 3] CT decreased from 7 to 6, JP decreased from 480->400

On the one hand, we're trying to avoid pushing earlygame black magic more than it has been.  On the other hand, level 3s already had some argument for earlygame use (notably Bolt 1 then save up for Bolt 3 isn't too different time-wise from Bolt 1 then head for Ramuh, and from mid chapter 2, Bolt 3 has CT5Bolt3 + Rubber Shoes.....or used to have >_>).

I still feel the level 3s may be a bit on the aggressive side now.  They don't crowd out the early summons or anything (even though summons are now slower, they don't miss and have wider area), but they probably crowd the L2s (5ctr vs 6ctr is...one of the less noteworthy gaps, all things considered).  The problem is there isn't much wiggle room--we don't want to buff earlygame Wizard, so L1s and L2s aren't going to be made faster or anything like that.  Speed-wise we kinda need Fire3<Ifrit<Fire4<Salamander.  Salamander/Fire4 really shouldn't be handed a speed nerf.

So...eh, I guess L2s just wave around their MP and JP costs primarily; still seen them used, so it's not really too bad.

* [Fire 4], [Bolt 4], and [Ice 4] CT decreased from 10 to 8, MP cost decreased from 48 to 36, JP = 600

They seem respectable like that.  Fun fact, actually--Wizard with Bolt 4 and Short Charge is kinda like what Wizard with Magic Attack Up and the old version of Ramuh used to be.  Except for the whole "can miss" and "uses 50% more MP".

* [Poison] hit rate increased from +160 to +210, effect area increased from 2 to 4, vertical tolerance increased from 2 to 3, CT decreased from 3 to 2, MP cost decreased from 6 to 1

Basically the Wizard's physical attack when they can't cast spells.  (Side note: I remember talking about dropping the JP to 50, but that change isn't listed?)

* [Death] hit rate increased from +100 to +180, range increased from 4 to 8, CT increased from 10 to 18, JP = 450, MP=24

Much like Raise 2, 450 JP rather than 500 strikes me as a bit of a weird number (it's obviously worth JP now).

Never sure how worried I am about this; yes Short Charge Death is cool, but not as good as Short Charge Leviathan.  Short Charge Death makes a lot of Yin Yang look bad, though if people are playing "fair" and taking two turns to cast it, that's not a concern at all.  (Though either way Yin Yang has multitarget and speed, so a definite niche there).  Eh, who am I kidding, innate Move-MP-Up Oracles are in no real danger.

Frog range = 3, hit rate = 120, MP = 12, ctr = 5, JP = 250

On the one hand, I remember Laggy saying "eww, Petrify is 120?  We were having trouble with Death's hit rate at 160."  On the other hand, when he used an Oracle he ended up casting Petrify about once every three turns.  On the third hand, a big part of that is "we've won anyway, let's win this fight faster", and Frog does not win the fight as it is non-fatal unlike Petrify.  On the fourth hand, Frog is the only ability you can use when turned into a Frog, and you can use it to un-Frog yourself.

So...long story short, Frog will always have a niche, but is pretty niche.  The JP cost could probably be cut in half pretty safely.  The question is "should it?"  Niche abilities will always be used...sometime.  Bring the JP cost down far enough, though, and they become iconic to the skillset (see: Silence Song in Oracle).  On the one hand, the default Black Magic setup could use a bit more variety in its step.  On the other hand, thematic wise it feels like the default black mage should be KILL KILL KILL, BURN THEM ALL!  Eh, up to you.

Side note: 8-bit theatre says Black Mages should be able to equip daggers. >_>
(Caution: this would make enemy Black Mages suck more).

Okay, back to work....

EDIT:

  ... Counter Magic: 200 JP

Definitely passable now; I've used it on a Monk as a cheap spillover reaction, and I suspect it's more valuable than regenerator in that role (though that depends heavily on the fight, also the MP/MA stats of the fighter trying to make use of CM).

  ... Magic Attack UP: 600 JP

Obviously still useful at 600.  Would still be viable if it cost more.  The relevant question to me is whether it should cost more or less than Short Charge, and I'm leaning strongly towards "less", since most magic skillsets pretty clearly prefer Short Charge now (Time, Summon, Yin Yang, arguably Black.  White...may prefer MAU).  MAU works on Elemental and Draw Out too, of course, but it's not like those have any other support competing to work with them, so there's no JP cost to balance it against.

Flare, 900 JP, 46 mult, non-elemental, range 5, 7 ctr

Granted, Flare's not better than Holy (except against holy-immune enemies), but it's the highest damage offence spell in an offence-oriented class.  Certainly used it in regular FFT (Draw Out Wizard likes it a lot, for instance).  Seems okay as-is.

[Talaysen]

(One of the ideas I have in my head is a 3 bard/3 dancer/zodiac mime fight, if that's any indication >_>)

Do this!  Dooo it.

[metroid composite]

...Time Mage
Probably hardest class to use optimally in the game.  Let's see how I do here....

* Acquired innate [Float]

Hillarious.

* [Teleport] removed from ability list

I...fundamentally don't like this much.  On paper this is supposed to encourage more diversity in the movement slot.  However, there's a tradeoff here in that Teleport is one of the most interesting strategic moves in the game, so what you gain in pre-battle customization you lose in in-battle strategy.  And...frankly, 90% of setups seem to use Move+X anyway, so the pre-battle customization isn't that exciting even with the change.

I'd really like to see this back; granted, more expensive (1500 JP would be aggressive costing, 2000 JP would be conservative costing), which is to say, notably more expensive than Move+3.  I think at 1500 Move+3 would still see a decent amount of use (you obviously pick it up if you're hanging out in Bard for the Harps, for instance; same for Dancer setups), though 1500 might make Teleport more used overall.  2000 would probably make Move+3 more used overall.

* [Haste] CT increased from 2 to 4, 8 MP, 120 JP

The CT nerf, other than making Oracle SCCs happy (they can cancel Haste with Silence Song), isn't crippling in practice.

At 100 JP it used to be guaranteed that you could learn Haste when you unlocked Time Mage; at 120 this is no longer guaranteed.  On the upside, this could potentially push people into learning Don't Move, Reflect, Float, or Slow as their first spell.  On the downside, there's "haste is iconic to the skillset" arguments, as well as the risk that people will just choose to save their JP if they can't learn Haste (which ends up a lot less interesting in-battle).  Only comes up 21% of the time, mind.

* [Haste 2] effect area increased from 2 to 3, CT decreased from 7 to 2, MP cost decreased from 30 to 16, 360 JP, 240 hit rate

Seems like a good ability now, although not a priority.

* [Slow] CT increased from 2 to 4, 8 MP, 80 JP

This now looks a fair bit worse than Slow 2 to me on paper.  Unlike PCs, enemies don't form in a nice + formation on flat terrain.  Unlike PCs, you can't be sure enemies will have high faith and favourable compatibility.

That said, I've still learned it, I think because we were heading into a zodiac fight and I didn't have the JP for Slow 2.

* [Slow 2] effect area increased from 2 to 3, CT decreased from 7 to 2, MP cost decreased from 30 to 16, 240 JP, 240 hit

See above, largely.  Seems solid, although it hasn't seen tons of use.

* [Stop] CT decreased from 7 to 5, hit rate increased from +110 to +160, MP cost decreased from 14 to 10, JP = 170, 2v0 AoE

Balanced to be a mildly worse version of Oracle's Paralyze and it...is.  I can definitely see it getting used because it's in Time Magic, but I'm going to say that at these numbers, it's not aggressive to the point of making Paralyze look bad or anything.  (Paralyze will usually have around 10% more hit, costs a bit less JP, and has range 4 whereas Stop is range 3).

Don't Move, 3 ctr, 190 hit rate, 2v1 AoE, 10 MP, 100 JP

Unchanged--was mildly useable before, although granted at least half the times I used it were Math Skill (non-Mathskill it tended to be overall a bit worse than Slow: more ctr, more MP....  Though hey slow got nerfed so Don't Move charges faster now, and it's always had better AoE and hit rate).

* [Float] range decreased from 4 to 3, hit rate increased from +140 to +200, 50 JP,

I...well I have cast it, once.  ("That Knight has Earth Slash and we're already hasted").  I imagine you could totally screw over a Knight with it too by standing below him on a staircase and floating him.  But yeah, really niche.

  ... Quick: 400 JP, 24 MP, 140 hit, 4ctr

Can be horribly broken, but this requires significant faith/MP twinking and two characters.  Quick you don't do careful setup for is...worse than Haste, until everyone has Auto-Haste (which is to say, I've definitely found it useful in the aftergame).  But...yeah, for non-twink non-aftergame uses, 400 JP seems a little high.  Could probably be safely lowered to 200 or so.

* [Demi] MP cost decreased from 24 to 16, added dark-elemental attribute, 190 hit, 250 JP, 6ctr

Hmm...not really impressed by this against Zodiacs anymore (Altima would be an exception, if she didn't also nerf it in additional ways, so uhh...if you're crazy enough to blitz Adramelk, maybe?)

Against Knights it's like...75 damage; in order to do this with regular damage through MDU, you'd need to do about 120 to a non-MDU target.  That's...somewhere in between Bolt 1 and Bolt 2.  (Before we consider that Demi has worse accuracy).

Hmm...this might call for another MP cut to, say, 8.  The difference between 8 MP and 16 MP doesn't matter for zodiacblitz, mostly for Knights.  (Wouldn't drop it lower than 8, though, Time Magic has no spells below 8 MP).

As far as JP and CTR go, ehh...TM's not supposed to be the super combat spell mage; the "it's a damage spell for your Time Mage" factor is often enough to get people to learn Demi, and 6ctr, 250 JP is bearable.

* [Demi 2] hit rate increased from +120 to +150, MP cost decreased from 50 to 36, added dark-elemental attribute, 550 JP, 9 ctr

Not sure how I feel about this one--yeah, on paper we've gone from spamming Demi to spamming Demi2 against Zodiacs.  At the same time, the advantages of Demi2 over Lich don't stand out too much (less JP and MP).  Granted, the only real advantage Lich has against zodiacs is 5% more accuracy, so I guess in the end it's about "which job is more convenient".

  ... Meteor: 1200 JP, 60 mult, 70 MP, 13 CTR

A bit cheaper on the JP, but not fundamentally different; expensive and a ridiculous amount of setup, but really hurts.

Critical Quick 200 JP

Arguably a lot better than Countermagic or Regenerator as a 200 JP spillover reaction, although requires spillover from two different classes.

MP Switch        400 JP

Arguably the best use of Time Mage spillover JP now; still has the problem of being really bad for mages on the mage side of the job tree, so hardly overpowered.

Short Charge     800 JP

Obviously good; haven't seen everyone rushing to learn it.

Float            100 JP

Easier for mages to pick up than Move+1, actually.  Probably the best movement for Calculators (at least ones that aren't using MP Switch+Move MP Up).  So...there's arguments for it.  At the same time, most people probably won't delay learning Haste for it, so it's only if you're not planning to do much in Time Mage.  I can at least see using it, anyhow.  Might see a bunch of people pull it out on the Sluice or something.

[metroid composite]

So...Laggy and I had a long talk about the movement slot, and how dull it is right now.

Long story short, we brainstormed into the night until we were too tired to think clearly, and have a very tentative list that hopefully won't look crappy when we wake up in the morning.

Move+2, Move+3, Teleport, Any Ground, Jump+1, Jump+2, Fly removed from ability list.

Move +1 - Thief (600 JP)
Jump +3 - Monk (200 JP)
Ignore Height - Archer (400 JP) [innate]
Move-HP Up - Priest (200 JP) [innate]
Move-MP Up - Oracle (400 JP) [innate]
Move-Get EXP - Squire (200 JP)
Teleport - Geomancer [innate only] (N.B.: Their movement has also been reduced from 4 to 1 to compensate; might not be enough--we seriously need to test it).
Teleport 2 - Calculator [innate only]
Any Weather - Oracle (50 JP) [innate]
Walk on Water - Samurai (50 JP) [innate]
Move in Water - Ninja (50 JP) [innate]
Move on Lava - Monk (50 JP) [innate]
Move Underwater - Thief (50 JP) [innate]
Float - Time Mage (100 JP) [innate]
Move-Find Item - Chemist (100 JP)

Oh, also: Move-in-water and Walk-on-water now do what they say they do.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Well, those are radical. Not sure how I feel about them.

1 move Geomancer is stupid, though; if you're going to do this to a class, it should be Time Mage or some other magic user (not to mention TM would make more sense thematically, though yeah, they already have Float). A class noted for their physical side, not to mention moving to different terrain to use Elemental properly, shouldn't be having to worry about teleport failure near-constantly.

Also, whatever class you do this to will completely fail as an enemy, unless it's Bard/Dancer. Haha 1 move.

[superaielman]

Really dislike hamstringing your movement like that. The other move skills being innate is much more fujn.

[metroid composite]

Well, those are radical. Not sure how I feel about them.

1 move Geomancer is stupid, though; if you're going to do this to a class, it should be Time Mage or some other magic user

Well...no, the problem with Time Mage is that then magical setups get access to Teleport and physical setups don't at all.  It really ought to be an at least somewhat balanced physical/magical class, which limits options considerably (there's Squire, Mediator, Chemist, Geomancer, and uhh...Priest has highish PA?)  Squire/Chemist just make no thematic sense.  Mediators are pretty down to earth too (they carry guns and talk to people).  This leaves Geos as the most mystical balanced class thematically.

Now, doing this to one pure-magic and one pure-physical class could be reasonable, but the only pure-physical class that makes any thematic sense is Ninjas (and having a low move-stat would just kill their Throw skillset).

Also, whatever class you do this to will completely fail as an enemy, unless it's Bard/Dancer. Haha 1 move.

We can fix those particular enemy's setup to be Move+1, Brigandine, Germinas Boots, which brings them up to move 4, so that's not really an issue.

[Xeroma]

I don't really think this is a good idea. See super and NEB really.

[metroid composite]

Really dislike hamstringing your movement like that. The other move skills being innate is much more fujn.

I assume you're referring to the loss of Move+2, Move+3 etc.

It's a concern.  At the same time, Squire/Knight/Monk have more base move than they did in FFT, and there's additional equip options for movement (Brigandine).  I'm not sure how it would play out in-game.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Well...no, the problem with Time Mage is that then magical setups get access to Teleport and physical setups don't at all.

But the way you've set things up, Teleport isn't even that attractive to physical setups. Physical setups, if based around a melee Attack command (rather than Wave Fist or Jump, say... or harps, now), need to get close to the enemy, which necessitates a certain amount of reliable movement. 1 doesn't really cut it. You can say "but but Brigandine! Germinas Boots!" but hamstringing equip options just to regain your mobility sucks.

I mean, I'd argue this change makes Geomancer markedly less desirable as a physical carrier than it used to be (especially with the now more inexpensive Ignore Height... seriously, Ignore Height 4 move Geo owns Move+1 1 move Teleporting Geo), and I find that a bit baffling since I was under the impression that the whole point of LFT Geo was to have its carrying ability improved.

Your argument that it doesn't work well on other classes is valid, but that doesn't make the choice you made any less bad. <_< If it doesn't work on anyone at all, that's fine! Put it back in the game for 1500 TM JP if you want.

[metroid composite]

But the way you've set things up, Teleport isn't even that attractive to physical setups. Physical setups, if based around a melee Attack command (rather than Wave Fist or Jump, say... or harps, now), need to get close to the enemy, which necessitates a certain amount of reliable movement.

Does it?

I dunno; I think of 1v1 setups where whoever physicals first tends to win, so 40% Teleports are called for.  I think of Ninja setups I had where I abandoned Move+ for Teleport (granted, they have 4 move to start, so they do have a certain minimum).

I mean, I'd argue this change makes Geomancer markedly less desirable as a physical carrier than it used to be (especially with the now more inexpensive Ignore Height... seriously, Ignore Height 4 move Geo owns Move+1 1 move Teleporting Geo)

Er...it does?

Ignore Height 4 move Geo vs Teleport 2 move Geo is...

If an enemy Knight attacked you from the front and is facing you, in both cases you can get behind them (Teleport goes through the enemy).  If they're going through running water, Ignore height gets slowed down to effective 2 move anyhow.  Teleport can get places Ignore Height can't (like reach Gaffy at gate of Lionel).

Looking at them as pure numerical panel count...
1 panel: both 100%
2 panel: both 100%
3 panel: Teleport is 90%, Ignore Height 100%
4 panel: Teleport is 80%, Ignore Height 100%
5+ panel: Teleport 70% (or less), Ignore Height can't reach

I dunno, I'm having a pretty hard time seeing 4-move Ignore Height as owning 2-move Teleport here.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Of course, if we're ignoring JP costs, then the IH setup switches to Move+1 (or any of the multitude of crappy water-owning movements to counter water penalty hype) when it doesn't need the height ignorance, the Teleport set has no such recourse. If we're not ignoring JP costs, then the IH setup is cheaper (and can probably still get Float through spillover!).

And then I don't agree with your conclusion anyway. Respect, but don't agree, and this shouldn't be in question if this change were to be made, given that it is inelegant and a bit cumbersome. Teleport is powerful, but harder to use (panel counting, game skips confirm-move step), which is a slight check on its power. Witness some people who, while calling it good, just plain dislike it. You aren't even giving it power, here.

[Xeroma]

I'm just gonna point to Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter here. Just because your options are balanced does not, in any way, mean it's fun. It can help, but it is not something you sacrifice dynamic options for.

[VySaika]

I would flat out not use 1 move Teleport Geos, and I like the class in general. I really, really, REALLY have issues with unreliable movement. Forced Teleport makes a class nearly unusable to me. Make it an option, not innate.

[Talaysen]

Wiegraf 2 battle, because it's hilarious:

Ramza Wizard (Guts secondary), Archer, Bard (twinked for speed, Ramia Harp, Charge, MP Switch), Lancer, Mime

Bard: Charge +20 random square to the left.
Mime: Move off to the right a bit to get out of the way of Wiegraf's Stasis Sword
Wiegraf: Stasis Sword Bard, Lancer, Archer, puts Bard and Archer into critical (who cares).
Enemies: Do some stuff.  An archer shoots the Bard but MP Switch takes care of it.
Ramza: Accumulate (Mime mimcks)
Lancer+Archer: Do stuff, doesn't matter.  (I think Archer moved and Lancer started Nameless Dance or something.)
Bard: Wait
Mime: Move next to Wiegraf
Bard: Charge+20 goes off, Mime mimicks and hits Wiegraf in the face for 600 damage.

Bottom line: Mimes and harps rule.  Also JUST AS PLANNED.

[metroid composite]

I'm just gonna point to Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter here. Just because your options are balanced does not, in any way, mean it's fun. It can help, but it is not something you sacrifice dynamic options for.

Yeah, Laggy was trying to go for balanced movement slot, but is backing off now due to general reactions; Laggy's current thoughts on movement:

Move +1 - Knight (300 JP)
Move +2 - Thief (750 JP)
Move +3 - Bard/Dancer (1200 JP)
Jump +3 - Monk (200 JP)
Ignore Height - Archer (300 JP) [innate]
Move-HP Up - Priest (200 JP) [innate]
Move-MP Up - Oracle (400 JP) [innate]
Move-Get EXP - Squire (200 JP)
Teleport - Time Mage (1500 JP)
Teleport 2 - Calculator [innate only]
Any Weather - Oracle (50 JP) [innate]
Walk on Water - Samurai (50 JP) [innate]
Move in Water - Ninja (50 JP) [innate]
Move on Lava - Geomancer (50 JP) [innate]
Move Underwater - Thief (50 JP) [innate]
Float - Time Mage (100 JP) [innate]
Move-Find Item - Chemist (100 JP)
Fly - Summoner (400 JP)

Okay, explanations: We can't really balance movement for the end-game, but we can still try to balance for the earlygame.

Move+1 goes to Knight.  The thing about Move+1 on Squire is that it's just an auto-learn...and once you learn it why waste JP on any other earlygame movement?  On Knight you have an interesting choice between Weapon Guard or Equip Shield or Move+1--a potentially interesting choice.  JP cost kept fairly aggressive, partially because mages just don't have a lot of choices for movement, so ruling out potential Move+1 spillover for them seemed limiting.

Move+2, Move+3 more expensive.  Mostly try to make the earlygame last longer, and try to make Move+2 less of a "you learn it automatically on the way to Ninja".  Move+3 didn't need the nerf, but will probably survive such abuse (and Laggy didn't like the JP gap between Move+1/2 being bigger than Move+2/3).

Teleport at 1500.  Aggressive!

Fly's back!  The reason Fly was cut is that it has about a 10 second animation every time you move, and the thought of that as a potential game-best movement was just...revolting (also, the competition between Ignore Height and Jump+3 is pretty interesting).  Now that we're back to all of these being earlygame abilities most of these concerns go away.  As a 400 JP Summoner ability it...has a niche, but won't be used too often (for sanity reasons it needed to cost more than Ignore Height).  Not innate, though--again fly animation is x_x.

Jump+1/Jump+2 still cut due to "we don't need that many of these guys".  Any Ground is still cut for...somewhat similar logic.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Innate ANY WEATHER? Let the hype begin.

Looks good, overall.

[metroid composite]

Innate ANY WEATHER? Let the hype begin.

Innate Any Weather does three things:

1. Nerf Oracle
2. Buff Fire magic
3. Nerf Thunder magic

All of these seemed like net plusses. >_>

[metroid composite]

To start this story, Laggy was thematically bothered by the fact that there were two special physical classes, and zero special magical classes (I mean calc, but it was practically banned by the JP cost).

So...Laggy spent about 5 hours trying to make Math Skill only useable by Calculator...and failed.  It then came down to "can we balance Math Skill?"  The answer was "actually probably yeah.  I mean, if Math Skill only worked with Shell it would be amazingly crappy, right?"

-Calculator-
* Acquired innate [Teleport 2] and [Non-charge]
* [Gained Exp Up] removed from ability list
* [Move-Get Exp] removed from ability list
* [Move-Get JP] removed from ability list
* [Non-charge] added to ability list
* [Math Skill] now has the following spells (and only these) available:
  White Magic    ... Cure, Cure2, Reraise, Regen, Protect, Shell, Wall, Esuna
  Black Magic    ... Fire, Ice, Bolt, Poison
  Time Magic     ... Haste, Slow, Don't Move, Float, Reflect, Demi
  Yin-Yang Magic ... Blind, Pray Faith, Doubt Faith, Zombie, Silence Song, Blind Rage, Confusion Song, Dispel Magic
* JP Cost Changes
  ... CT: 250 -> 900 JP
  ... Level: 350 -> 200 JP
  ... Exp: 300 -> 100 JP
  ... Height: 250 -> 200 JP
  ... Prime Number: 300 -> 200 JP
  ... 4: 400 -> 200 JP
  ... 3: 600 -> 200 JP
  ... Distribute: 200 -> 100 JP
  ... Non-charge: 3000 -> 9999 JP

Right, so let me go over some common abuses of Math Skill.  The really common abuse is to use something that you block or absorb and the enemy does not.  Holy is an obvious one.  But, for instance, Paralyze while blocking Don't Act (with, say, pre-nerf Thief Hat) is another obvious one.

There's two things that really get around this--first of all positive effects like Haste, Reraise, Shell, and really anything that can't be blocked with an accessory (Innocent, for instance).  Secondly, effects that aren't total gamewinners (BLIND!!!  POISON!!)

So...let's get to individual spells

  White Magic    ... Cure, Cure2, Reraise, Regen, Protect, Shell, Wall, Esuna

All positive status, for the most part.

Cure2: Frankly in the olden CT5Holy days, you did more healing with your best damage spell than your best healing spell.  This was dumb.  Hence, a higher cure gets included than the highest available black magic.

Cure3/4: If you're using a White Mage with Math Skill, you should be able to heal more with White Magic than Math Skill.  Other than that...frankly Cure4 could be calculable with no particular balance risks >_>.

Raise/Raise2: Would be completely broken.  Current best range on revival is 4...this brings it to infinite.  Currently you can only revive one person at a time.  This brings it up to 6.  Currently instant speed revival brings people back at 20% HP at most.  This would bring that up to 50% HP.

Reraise: This on the other hand...is really good, but very different from all other revival stuff out there.  Also doesn't save you from a steamroll (which old CT5Raise did.  "Oh, I'm the last person alive, you say *casts* no I'm not").

Regen, Protect, Shell, Wall, Esuna: Nothing too special.

  Black Magic    ... Fire, Ice, Bolt, Poison

Frankly, I worry that Fire/Ice/Bolt are way too powerful.  They can average 117 damage with a pure damage boosting setup, at pretty normal levels, which...completely smokes guns.  All three of them can be blocked/absorbed in one way or another.  On the other hand, there may be a temptation with neo-Mathskill not to focus on MA+MAU, at which point their damage becomes more like 50, which pfft...whatever.  Also, lots of Chapter 3 enemies (when this would have been most powerful) use White Robes or elemental shields themselves.  So...maybe it's okay.

Poison...if you're using a non-MA setup is decent.  Kinda competitive with Demi for gravity damage.

  Time Magic     ... Haste, Slow, Don't Move, Float, Reflect, Demi

Most of these are non-fatal.  The most abusive one is Don't Move, which if you felt like doing a party full of Mathskillers and Dancers...yeah that's abusive.  If you're just using a Calc in a normal balanced party, however, Don't Move enemies are still plenty dangerous.  Whatever, it's not like LFT disables the Quickening; full party strategies being scary = fine.

Stuff that isn't included....

Stop: repeated stop locks down the enemies.

Quick: Nothing could possibly go wrong with Quick, right?

Demi 2: Infinite range "lose 1/4 of your health (less if you're a zodiac)" is...acceptable.  Doubling it, though, would be o_O

Meteor: I can't believe we're passing up an opportunity to test the theory "the meteor animation never gets old".  ;_;

Blind, Pray Faith, Doubt Faith, Zombie, Silence Song, Blind Rage, Confusion Song, Dispel Magic

Blind, Zombie, Silence Song, Blind Rage, Dispel Magic, Doubt Faith: Whatever/situational.

Pray Faith: Really, really good...but also encourages you to work with a non-mathskiller to get real damage.  (Granted, this is another good argument for "we should ban Fire/Ice/Bolt for being too powerful", hmm...on the other hand, I guess there's always Zombie -> Cure2 even if we do ban those, so...I guess testing is called for).

Confusion Song: Probably the nastiest negative status we allowed.  But...the enemies will generally knock each other out of confusion pretty fast.

Stuff that wasn't included....
Spell Absorb/Life Drain: Weren't mathskillable originally; stayed consistent.
Paralyze/Sleep/Petrify: See Stop.
Foxbird: On the one hand, you can't block this with your own people.  On the other hand, Chicken is very very fatal as a status, and would be the most powerful one we allow which would be obnoxious for trying to keep your own brave up.

* Acquired innate [Teleport 2] and [Non-charge]

Laggy wanted the calc class to be a bit more inherently interesting...so it gained innate non-charge too.  (Stats still suck though--seems reasonable).

JP...

CT is the most easily abuseable and works in every fight (whereas height and level require different numbers for different fights and such).  Exp sucks.  That explains CT 900 and Exp 100 JP respectively.  All other abilities can be argued to be learned in nearly any order, so all 200 JP.

Distribute...well Laggy felt costs like 10 JP or 1 JP look weird, and still wouldn't get anyone to use it.  No other class makes much sense thematically.  Oh well.  100 JP and "in running for worst ability in the game" I guess.

Damage Split stays at 300.  Because they're so slow, 300 calc JP is like 600 anyone else JP, which is a reasonable price (Blade Grasp is 700 on a class that's easier to unlock).

Non-Charge...seemed dangerous at 3000, since people have been known to pick up 3000 calc JP fairly sanely (that's about what they used to take to learn the Math Skills); 5000 would probably be very safe, but 9999 was just so comical >_>

unlocks

Back to the old 550/550/350/350 Priest/Wizard/Oracle/Time Mage.

[Grefter]

The movement stuff seems a lot more thematically in line with your other changes (felt to aggressively forceful way of rebalancing the game before).  I heartilly approve of turning Calculator into what is essentially a Red Mage.  Very nice.