LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)

[Laggy]

That's the *ideal* goal, yes.

On a more practical level due to the existence of quadratic formulas and increasingly available options to twink for damage I'll settle for "isn't a game of rocket tag" by endgame, which at current it easily can be.

Extrapolating current numbers I think it ends up like most units have +100-150 HP by endgame compared to their normal values? It's enough to turn OHKOs into 2HKOs, and 2HKOs into 3HKOs, which is generally the idea here.

They'll flat out have better HP in all intervals of the game starting from Level 1, though. Just that the changes aren't really felt until late.

[Just Another Day]

Some more or less train-of-thought feedback:

Growth rates that matter after the first few levels are a little bit shocking, but not exactly terrible. On character advancement, one imagines that improved multipliers soften the blow, but would it be a dramatic blow to a character's long-term competence to have spent a bunch of time in the magic tree? And if so, is this desirable? I've always vaguely resented games where I felt like I had to change class/equipment to level up in order to optimize.

Also, I don't have the FFT math knowledge to check it myself, but one worries about the basic limits of the HP cap for high-level play; Tiamats and I think a few other monsters already regularly cap HP in the standard game. There's probably not much risk of that for humans (or is there? Lancers have whole lotta HP in this version), but I would worry about monsters clumping up with 999HP each at relatively low levels.

What are the implications for HP-based effects? Obviously, they get by-and-large better. Life drain doesn't really need it, but has already been somewhat controlled, the Demis get a bit extra, which probably isn't a bad thing. Poison becomes a little bit better (thankfully). Relative HP stays the same, so things like Shock and Self-Destruct are slightly improved too, relative to other damage, which is slightly worse on the whole. Those are the big ones, I guess. Nothing too terrifying.

Beyond that, the merits are clear. Offense in FFT > defense. Nice to see that mitigated somewhat. I like that class diversity is improved (I note that the Thieves will now have a really significant durability advantage to Ninjas, one that felt a little bit token before), I like that it addresses m.c.'s statement earlier today that "nobody cares about HP". Feels positive that you're making it a relevant, significant difference.

[metroid composite]

Growth rates that matter after the first few levels are a little bit shocking, but not exactly terrible.

Mmm...the way FFT growths work, at low levels what matters is the ratio between them (so 6 vs 7 is the same as 60 vs 70).  At high levels what matters is the subtractive difference between them (so 30 vs 40 is about the same as 60 vs 70).  The reason this happens is that the term that gets used in the *actual* growth formula is...

(Growth+Level)

So...6 vs 7 is huge at level 0, but 106 vs 107 is barely noticeable at level 100 (whereas 60 vs 70 becomes 160 vs 170, which is still decently noticeable).

Anyway, point is: this change would actually make relative HP growths matter more in the first few levels, and the growth differences less relevant above level 10.

On character advancement, one imagines that improved multipliers soften the blow, but would it be a dramatic blow to a character's long-term competence to have spent a bunch of time in the magic tree? And if so, is this desirable? I've always vaguely resented games where I felt like I had to change class/equipment to level up in order to optimize.

HP growth wise we're talking 8 growth instead of...usually 6, sometimes 7.  At level 40 in...let's say you switch classes to Geomancer with their 138 mult (highest HP class that mages would consider using--higher HP multipliers making for bigger HP gaps)...

Levelled up with 8 growth: 220 HP
Levelled up with 6 growth: 272 HP

Assuming you get 150 HP from your equipment, it's a 14% HP drop.

Under the old system it would be...(growths 10 and 12, Geo with 125 mult, level 40)

Levelled up with 12 growth: 150 HP
Levelled up with 10 growth: 170 HP

Assuming 150 HP from equips, it's a 6% HP drop.

For reference: in original FFT, the HP gap between Power Sleeve and Black Costume was usually around 10%.  (In non HP-modified LFT it's more like 17% because Power Sleeve's 50 HP now).

But that is a good point: 14% is enough that there is noteworthy pressure gain your first five levels in Priest/Knight/Monk.

Also, I don't have the FFT math knowledge to check it myself, but one worries about the basic limits of the HP cap for high-level play; Tiamats and I think a few other monsters already regularly cap HP in the standard game. There's probably not much risk of that for humans (or is there? Lancers have whole lotta HP in this version), but I would worry about monsters clumping up with 999HP each at relatively low levels.

Tiamats have a growth of 3 (about three times as good as most unmodified human growths) and monsters have more natural HP.

Hmm...if Mimes do all their growth in Mime (4 growth now...) they hit 999 HP at level 80.  If they gain their first 5 levels in Chemist (unlocking the job) and the rest in Mime, though, then they cap out at 990 HP at level 99.  Lancers levelled up as Lancers reach 720 HP at level 99--notable, because they can get 350 HP from armor, so 70 HP of their equipment is going nowhere (granted, this change makes Maximillian look bad any way you cut it--200 HP from equipment just isn't as cool as it used to be).

Yeah, hitting the cap is a danger; these changes sort of brush it a bit (with one or two classes).

[Just Another Day]

Okay, I thought that class growth differences might start to make a real difference on later levels. The first 10 levels thing is a flaw, in my view, in how FFT works, but it's just kinda the way things are. Realistically, if you're really concerned you spend the first few chapters in Knight or whatever and get on with your life. Sounds like this change may make this an even better idea, but it's a question of degree rather than a substantive change.

Monsters capping out early... Means that monster durability will drop precipitously at higher levels (as they cap HP and stay there, 999HP at level 60 >> 999 HP at level 99), but I'm not sure how big a deal that really is, nor how solvable...

The only significant thing with the HP cap for humans would seem to be the nerfing of late-game high HP armour you'd mentioned. People who level up exclusively in Mime get what they deserve; I'm not sure if you can unlock the class in the first few levels without gaming the system somewhat anyways (sitting around and eating up Squire/Chemist overflow, but again, you get what you deserve, jerk ), and otherwise it sounds like it's fine.

On the armour thing, I'm sure you and Laggy can come up with a way to help out Maximilian and its buddies, if you decide they need it. If you can now conceivably get it at relatively low levels; e.g. through the Colliery, it would just be a matter of its usefulness easing off as the game wears on, which is no big deal.

[metroid composite]

Hmm...well the way the discussion went last night, we were asking ourselves if there was a way to tone down lategame damage without drastically altering HP mechanics that we'd need to rebalance for weeks.  Notably we've almost exclusively increased WP and class multipliers and equipment bonuses, and are now expressing concern that there's too much OHKOing, hmm...who's fault is that? <_<

Stuff we're batting around includes making Bracer PA+2, and lowering Ninja/Thief PA.  Both things that make some sense--while Bracer is usually shunned for Angel Rings in SCCs, outside of SCCs where you actually have revival, Bracer's getting a lot of use.  As for Ninja/Thief, Chapter 4 Martial Arts Ninja has been bothering Laggy for a while, and something that has been bothering me for a while is...

Physical carriers:
Ge: 125 PA, 100 Speed
Sq: 110 PA, 110 Speed
Ni: 122 PA, 120 Speed

Geo makes sense (best PA, worst speed).  Squire doesn't (worst PA, but not best speed).  Ninja doesn't (best speed, not worst PA).

So...looks like Ninja's likely to drop to 102 multiplier, along with a Bracer nerf, which...doesn't affect their Ninja Sword damage much, but does drop their martial arts damage from 528 to 420 (at level 30)--still their best damage.  Thief would get a similar drop if we did this, of course.

[Archmage]

Laggy assures me Nelveska will hand my ass to me. He's probably right. Let's try it anyway! I'm not going to bother with move-finding the broken equips on the pillars.

Nelveska:

I have guest apandas? What the hell? The birds move first. An apanda dies; so does Ashley, but she'll reraise. I brought Worker 8 into this fight to tank, and he luckily evades a bird attack. The treants up on the pillars are cute. W7 punches K-Variable for over 700 damage. Awesome!

W7 having over 900 HP and being totally magic immune, this is going to be tricky. Let's dispatch dragon Reis along with Worker 8 and give Ashley item secondary to heal him. So.

Bird OHKOs an apanda; bird petrifies Reis (damn); bird kills Ashley like whoa. Hakaril successfully invites a cockatoris (29%)! That'll help a lot. Or not. W7 kills it. K-Variable kikus W7 for 240. Summons are all unsurprisingly too slow; too bad Ashley doesn't have soft unlocked. I charge Bahamut to bait enemies into attacking her. Friendly fire from the treants does over 500 damage, dropping W7 to critical status! W8 hits W7 with Dispose. W7 reraises with 1 HP and some monsters do stuff; K-Variable gets a turn and the battle is over.

Dragoner Reis GET! <3 <3 <3

It's time for some JP whoring. Zane and Ash become calculators (I dunno, it just seems like a good idea). Zane will sing while Ashley yells. Hopefully Hakaril, Laggy, and Reis can handle the enemies! Let's go to Bed Desert for this.

OK, now Ashley and Zane have more or less full math skill (damage split is what I really wanted). I'll level Reis more later, probably after I get Cloud (I want to have a "secondary" party of special characters just for fun).

Time to go to Igros. Just to update things, here's my current setup; it's changed a million times, but here's where we're at now:

Hakaril: Mediator/White Magic/Speed Save/MA UP/Move +1
Blaze Gun/Thief Hat/Black Robe/Sprint Shoes

Zane: Time Mage/White Magic/Damage Split/Short Charge/Move +1
Wizard Staff/Thief Hat/Light Robe/Sprint Shoes

K-Variable: Geomancer/Draw Out/Blade Grasp/Attack UP/Move +1
Rune Blade/Aegis Shield/Flash Hat/Brigandine/Chantage

Laggy: Geomancer/Jump/Abandon/Attack UP/Move +1
Slasher/Thief Hat/Earth Clothes/Genji Gauntlet

Ashley: Summoner/Math Skill/Damage Split/Short Charge/Move MP-Up
Wizard Rod/Flash Hat/Light Robe/Chantage

Igros:

Conditions for winning: Defeat Dycedarg's non-existent elder brother!

Easy. Dycedarg goes down after a couple gunshots and a blast of geomancy. Nothing to report. Then Adremelk shows up!

Zane charges Demi2; Laggy hits with geomancy (84) and Hakaril shoots (227). Ashley tries Slow; no good, it's guarded. K-Variable also hits with geomancy (75). Demi2 hits for 363, so Zane starts charging another one. Hak shoots for 227. Adremelk uses Darkness; now everybody is charmed, blind, and poisoned. All right!

Laggy and Hak join forces to kill Ashley for their new friend Adremelk. Exp5Esuna clears up some of Hak's status effects. Oh, zombie is part of the package, too! Zane kills Hak with Cure2. Can't raise zombies...no good. But K-Variable reraises and hits Adremelk for 240 with kiku. Ashley uses Height5Bolt for 81.

Night Sword for 999 damage!? SHIT! Demi2 misses. >_< Death kills Ashley; another Kiku from the reraised K does 240. Ash reraises...Bahamut summon! 314...he's still alive!? Death kills Ashley again...and Hakaril zombie reraises after Zane hits with Demi for 184. K-Variable reraises, kikus for 240...still alive! Laggy crystallizes. GG. That whole "healing self for 999" thing kinda screwed me.

OK, so. The rules for this fight are apparently:

1. Allow zombie (night sword healing for 999 is very bad).
2. Null charm (or else my characters inevitably kill each other very fast). The only piece of equipment that nulls charm without also nullifying zombie is an N-Kai armlet.
 
I need gil for N-Kai armlets, so...random battle time! Couple randoms give me a chance to train Reis and Beowulf a bit just for the hell of it. Also, I get Laggy Vert Jump8 (finally). Everyone gets geared up with armlets and we're good.

Laggy jumped before I killed Dycedarg (even though I knew I wouldn't be able to land on him, his CT was 90)...so he landed on Adremelk. 345 damage. XD

K-Variable moves in, kiku (240), Hak shoots (340). Ashley uses Level3Reraise to grant herself, Laggy, Hak, and K-Variable a second chance at life. Laggy jumps, Demi2 does 352. Aw, shit. Since someone's in range, Adremelk opts for night sword over darkness, but K-Variable's MP Switch keeps her alive. Hmm. He does it again. This is...interesting. Let's...get away from him. Yeah.

I decide to try zombifying my whole team to halt night sword. I get stuck in a really weird stalemate where Hak can't do anything except raise Zane so he doesn't crystallize, but the CTs won't line up in my favor; Adramelk always acts immediately after Zane gets raised, he heals himself for 999, and the battle goes on forever. Reset.

OK, let's try a break strategy. Ninja Laggy and K-Variable are going to speed and power break Adremelk into submission. Ash uses Reraise on everyone, Dycedarg is dispatched, and it's time to lay into the goat-man. Laggy has ignore height and K-Variable has fly, so they get into position quickly. Six speed breaks seems sufficient. Wonder how many times I have to power break him to get night sword to stop doing 999? Oh, K-Variable doesn't have power break, only speed. So...eight speed breaks.

Seven power breaks later I figure I might as well start killing him. I never get to find out how effective the power breaks were. Oh well.

We go to rescue Cloud! This battle is no big deal. Then I discover that I don't have enough JP to teach anyone Move-Find Item (!?) so we need to hit a random for that.

Wow, I die in a random. Cockatoris are hardcore.

[Fuzzypickles]

Bards are pretty crazy. I have Bard Ramza with Concentrate and Charge and he took out Wiegraf in one hit. Then, having Haste from a Nameless Song against Wieggy, he double turns at the start of the Velius portion of the fight and deals 936(!) damage to Velius before anyone else gets a turn. Good lord. I think the WP on harps needs to be tuned down. Without Charge the damage numbers are through the roof. Combined with Charge it's just obscene.

Edit: Another bug, somewhat minor: Move HP-Up and Move MP-Up do not stack. I gave my Priest Move MP-Up but only the HP takes effect. I haven't tried putting Move HP-Up on an Oracle, but I'm guessing one would override the other. Nothing you can do about it probably... hm.

[Archmage]

Bards are pretty crazy. I have Bard Ramza with Concentrate and Charge and he took out Wiegraf in one hit. Then, having Haste from a Nameless Song against Wieggy, he double turns at the start of the Velius portion of the fight and deals 936(!) damage to Velius before anyone else gets a turn. Good lord. I think the WP on harps needs to be tuned down. Without Charge the damage numbers are through the roof. Combined with Charge it's just obscene.

Bards are super-fragile, though. Ultimate glass cannon class. And harps have a very strict range. I tried the bard thing for a little while and while they're fast and do a lot of damage they flat out can't take a hit. There are ways around that, of course, but with HP and MP mods of 50 and a PA mod of 30 they aren't exactly very good carriers or anything (except maybe for charge; jump isn't that spectacular thanks to very low PA).

Maybe I need to experiment with them more, but so far they don't suit me too well on the grounds that they're not durable enough (I suppose something like blade grasp might fix that, but). Even a ninja can take more hits, and they have the CEv to potentially dodge a few even without a mantle or reaction.

[Just Another Day]

Hmm...well the way the discussion went last night, we were asking ourselves if there was a way to tone down lategame damage without drastically altering HP mechanics that we'd need to rebalance for weeks.  Notably we've almost exclusively increased WP and class multipliers and equipment bonuses, and are now expressing concern that there's too much OHKOing, hmm...who's fault is that? <_<

Stuff we're batting around includes making Bracer PA+2, and lowering Ninja/Thief PA.  Both things that make some sense--while Bracer is usually shunned for Angel Rings in SCCs, outside of SCCs where you actually have revival, Bracer's getting a lot of use.  As for Ninja/Thief, Chapter 4 Martial Arts Ninja has been bothering Laggy for a while, and something that has been bothering me for a while is...

Physical carriers:
Ge: 125 PA, 100 Speed
Sq: 110 PA, 110 Speed
Ni: 122 PA, 120 Speed

Geo makes sense (best PA, worst speed).  Squire doesn't (worst PA, but not best speed).  Ninja doesn't (best speed, not worst PA).

Well, but that's not the whole picture, is it? Innate 2-swords on Ninja means they have the effective best PA for many purposes (not Jump or Punch Art, of course, but their attack will be their best range 1 damage anyhow, no?), freeing up the support slot for concentrate/Attack-Up/what-have-you. And the PA gap between them and Geomancer is pretty small regardless, at least compared to Squire. Squire has move 5 in exchange, which is probably still somewhat significant, but is clearly the worst class of the bunch for rocket tag (Laggy's phrase? I like it). This doesn't seem like a problem though; these classes aren't supposed to be across the board comparable, are they? Squires and Geomancers both have the MA option, if nothing else, which Ninja lack (for the record, Geos still seem flagrantly superior to Squires, though the move provides the latter with some niche value).

Also don't forget Lancers, who are what, 150/90 (better PA and worse Speed than Geo) now? Definitely relevant as the other extreme of physical carrier, even without clothes, particularly with MASSIVE HP a possible factor.

Bracer for +2 parallels the Magic Bracer nicely. Always seemed a bit strange that it was better.

So...looks like Ninja's likely to drop to 102 multiplier, along with a Bracer nerf, which...doesn't affect their Ninja Sword damage much, but does drop their martial arts damage from 528 to 420 (at level 30)--still their best damage.  Thief would get a similar drop if we did this, of course.

Nice. Ninja's still have the best attack command with or without Martial Arts, of course; as long as they have that and speed they'll always be fine, no matter if they're less good with a PA secondary (there'll always be charge and battle skill for them for offense, and plenty of defense/support options too). It re-emphasizes Throw a bit by making their speed weapons a bit better, less reason to drop the ninja swords completely and just throw it all into PA. All for the good, I think.

[Laggy]

The nice, big change we're planning about Squires is that we want to give Knight's Swords (!) and Sticks (just because they need an MA use). (Funnily enough despite trampling all over Ubersquire's uniqueness I think it still easily wins out in the end on account of (altered) Wish being in the skillset. >_>)

Geo's stats will probably round down to a more even 120 mult across the board rather than 125 - minor nerf, but after applying the ones to Ninja and Thief it makes sense.

[Just Another Day]

Ubersquire's thing was always about the uberskillset as much as the uberequips, it seems to me, and he still gets, well, both, really (and Squires still don't have the heavy armour option, nor shields, correct?). Cheer-up and Yell are less unique, obviously, but Wish is much better and Scream is still awesome. It doesn't say in the documentation that I can find, but did you change Ultima at all?

Sticks is a nice touch for squire. Makes sense, too (quarterstaves are kind of a typical "I'm a trainee" weapon).

[Laggy]

Ultima was left unchanged, yes. In general, unless they really needed the help, I left special chars alone.

[Archmage]

Ubersquire's thing was always about the uberskillset as much as the uberequips, it seems to me, and he still gets, well, both, really (and Squires still don't have the heavy armour option, nor shields, correct?). Cheer-up and Yell are less unique, obviously, but Wish is much better and Scream is still awesome.

I made a similar comment to Laggy the other day; my Ramza is a mediator right now for flavor reasons, but he's had White Magic secondary for a long time mostly for Raise. I could change his secondary to Guts and lose almost nothing now that Wish offers revival--and I would gain Scream and Yell, even though Scream is only semi-useful for a magic gun-wielding Ramza (the speed is good, of course, and since Yell doesn't self-target anymore Scream essentially replaces it for that purpose). I don't have Ultima, but I don't really need it since...well, magic gun. That and I missed my opportunities to learn it at Riovanes, though I suspect there might be somewhere else I can pick it up.

But yeah. Guts was always a great skillset. I would argue that it's even better now with its revival skill--MP free but limited range isn't a terrible trade-off (see Revive, except that Wish actually has vert tolerance).

[Just Another Day]

I made a similar comment to Laggy the other day; my Ramza is a mediator right now for flavor reasons, but he's had White Magic secondary for a long time mostly for Raise. I could change his secondary to Guts and lose almost nothing now that Wish offers revival--and I would gain Scream and Yell, even though Scream is only semi-useful for a magic gun-wielding Ramza (the speed is good, of course, and since Yell doesn't self-target anymore Scream essentially replaces it for that purpose). I don't have Ultima, but I don't really need it since...well, magic gun. That and I missed my opportunities to learn it at Riovanes, though I suspect there might be somewhere else I can pick it up.

But yeah. Guts was always a great skillset. I would argue that it's even better now with its revival skill--MP free but limited range isn't a terrible trade-off (see Revive, except that Wish actually has vert tolerance).

That's a good point on Yell; I hadn't even considered that Scream is now the only self-speed booster.

With Wish, Pheonix Down being less accessible makes all other revival more valuable as a matter of course. Plus the old Wish was pretty terrible, so replacing it with anything of utility just plain improves the skillset. Punch-Art's Revive is better side by side, of course (particularly now that it has some vertical as well, plus instant plus actual HP healing), but Wish definitely has its niche: free (JPwise) ability you're guaranteed to have from the start in a strong support skillset on a good carrier, and the advantage of being able to charge and retreat (saves reviver and revivee being a neat target for most spells, especially 3CT black magic). In our playthrough (the communal one Excal is documenting), it's been our main source of revival through the first two chapters.

So definitely concur that Guts is improved, I think, in a several ways that overshadow it losing its monopoly on Yell and reliable brave boosting. And in any case, it's not like there are any characters with access to both Guts and Basic Skill, so it kind of feels like a moot point: Ramzasquire is incredibly good regardless (one of the best classes in the game in normal FFT), and Ramza himself with his hermaphrodite attack growth has some pretty incredible native advantages over generics as well.

[metroid composite]

This doesn't seem like a problem though; these classes aren't supposed to be across the board comparable, are they? Squires and Geomancers both have the MA option, if nothing else, which Ninja lack (for the record, Geos still seem flagrantly superior to Squires, though the move provides the latter with some niche value).

Well...much more than the move advantage, the big advantage Squires have over Geos is speed.  Can be really useful when working with charge times on a secondary (like Jump or...any magic).

In the case of Squire/Geo, design-wise they really overlap a lot, so they kind of do need to be comparable.  Squire...the design problem we discovered is that they don't work well having awesome skills, because you get about 600 Squire JP for free, so then everyone learns and sets the awesome ability (see Move+1).  There's also the theme issue with Squire (stuff from them needs to feel...baisc).  We could have given them awesome stat growths, but that niche fits better in Mime (which...you don't get skills from, so you should get something) and Thief (who also has innate poach, where good growths emphasizes "this is the training class, Ninja is the smashing class").  Also, lots of people (rightfully) ignore growths, so a class can't lean on those alone.  We could have given them an awesome physical like Thief or Chemist, though those niches were mostly taken and didn't make thematic sense.

The one remaining niche to give them was "good at using secondary skillsets".  This...also happens to be Geomancer's niche.  The cop-out way of doing this would be "Geo gets to specialize in magic, Squire gets to specialize in physical" or something...but I don't like that solution--better to give the player an interesting choice.  So instead Squire vs Geo is "Move+1 vs Shields", "Speed vs PA/MA", "MP vs HP", "status curing vs status causing".  In a total vacuum where you could only pick Squire or Geo to use your skillset, Squire would be fairly competitive.  Outside of the vacuum, though, Geo does a better job at carving out a niche (shields are vital in some situations, and almost unique to Geos among offence classes; whereas there's lots of fast classes).  So...yeah, we've been looking at ways to make Squire a little more attractive.

This round of changes would do quite a lot, I think.  Not being both slower and worse PA than Ninja helps.  The Squire/Geo PA/MA gap going from -15 to -10 (while speed stays +10) helps.  Sticks help (in that if you're a female twinking for MA, you could deal, say...50 damage with Diamond Sword...or 110 damage with Gokuu rod).  Knight Swords help (granted, I don't want to just toss a class Knight Swords and call them balanced; that would be original FFT Knight).

Oh, one more thing Laggy and I just hashed out: Flame Whip now has strengthen: fire, and shows up in Chapter 2, so Squires, Priests, and Ninjas can use Black Magic a bit better, and also to encourage the use of Fire spells.  (Side note: from a design perspective it's annoying how Squire always shares weapons with one of its competitors.  Swords and Axes with Geos.  Flails with Priests--Priests being the other 110 Speed, 110 MA class).

[Just Another Day]

Since it's sort of where you're trending anyhow, here's a thought: why not, rather than picking and choosing individual equipment-types, bite the bullet and give Squires access to every type of equipment there isn't a clear reason to deny them (Harps for certain, therefore also Cloth. Ninja Blades and Katana? Maybe guns but maybe not...).

Equipment options generally become more valuable as the game goes on; this would have next to no effect on the early game, except for a smallish HP bonus from heavy armour, but would give them tons of flexibility later that would make them a pretty tempting carrier for oddball setups, even if they don't really excel at anything in particular otherwise. Reminiscent of FFV Traveler (without the brokenness), which is probably appropriate.

For the record, I definitely feel that they should get Books regardless. It just feels... right.

[metroid composite]

For the record, I definitely feel that they should get Books regardless. It just feels... right.

Wait, really?  Books are one of the things I don't feel make thematic sense for Squires.

We've talked about doing a mass equipment drop on them, yeah, but the biggest issue is that Laggy has to then go and edit the description for every piece of equipment in the game.

Equipment options generally become more valuable as the game goes on; this would have next to no effect on the early game, except for a smallish HP bonus from heavy armour, but would give them tons of flexibility later

Very much the reverse, actually--the really big functional change is Squires get Thunder Rod in Chapter 1.  This doesn't matter by Chapter 4 (when they can use the MA+2 Rune Blade).

I mean, barring really specialist gear, but a lot of classes build their uniqueness around that gear (Mediators are a class with guns and solid stats...Squires just beat them in every stat.  Archers are the only class with longbows...and again Squires would beat them in every stat).

[Just Another Day]

Yuck, hadn't even thought of all the writing changes that would take.

On books, I'm totally just free-associating books and learning. The attack image is correct, too, at least in my head. If you're making Squire the (thematic) trainee class for all jobs, I dunno, the student with the book is quite a strong trope. Mechanically, of course, I don't think they would be ridiculous on them (although you could probably put together a pretty badass water-strengthened Charger in the endgame).

I can see the argument for guns, definitely, although Talk Skill and Basic Skill are different enough (and Talk Skill arguably better enough), that I'm not sure it's as clean cut as all that. The only stat you really care about for guns, after all, is speed, where they're very similar.

Longbows, well, the coolest thing about longbows is the range/height thing (doubly so with Charge in the mix); a class without ignore height seems at a clear disadvantage. At least in any map suited to bow use in the first place. But on the other hand (and this is true of Mediators as well) nerfing Archers even a little bit seems like a step backwards.

Hadn't thought about Thunder Rod, although it's worth noting that there's still an MA drop from Wizard to Squire, and Black Magic still comes at the cost of a secondary, which could include, say, Charge +3 and an Iron Sword. Still, you're right, definitely changes the nature of the class in Chapter 1. (for the better, I'd still say; options of comparable overall merit but different specific strengths are exciting)

[Archmage]

A couple battles later we have the materia blade. I hate Deep Dungeon, so we're not going. Instead, I think it's time to head to Murond and wrap this up. I want to do something silly. Laggy becomes a bard. Gotta try out this crazy harp charge thing for myself.

So, here's what we've got:

Hakaril: Mediator/Guts/Speed Save/MA Up/Move +1
Blaze Gun/Thief Hat/Black Robe/Sprint Shoes

Zane: Time Mage/White Magic/Damage Split/Short Charge/Move +1
Wizard Staff/Golden Hairpin/Light Robe/Sprint Shoes

K-Variable: Geomancer/Draw Out/MP Switch/MA UP/Move-MP Up
Rune Blade/Aegis Shield/Flash Hat/Brigandine/Chantage

Laggy: Bard/Charge/Blade Grasp/Magic Def UP/Ignore Height
Bloody Strings/Thief Hat/Brigandine/Genji Gauntlet

Ashley: Summoner/White Magic/Damage Split/Short Charge/Move MP-Up
Wizard Rod/Flash Hat/Black Robe/Chantage

Back-up/secondary characters--I haven't trained them as heavily as I could, but they might participate in a few endgame fights for fun:

Reis: Dragoner/White Magic/Counter Tackle/Martial Arts/Move +1
Barette/Chantage

Beowulf and Cloud are both usable but not that awesome objectively since they don't really have secondary skills trained and Cloud only knows Cross-Slash and Finish Touch. Last time I played I think I killed Vormav with Cherry Blossom, but I don't think I'll duplicate that particular bit of insanity this run.

Total coincidence: It is January 1st in game. New Year's Day party at Murond Death City! OK, I realized nobody was using the Genji equipment except the glove. For maximum silliness, I alter Laggy's setup:

Laggy: Bard/Charge/Blade Grasp/Equip Armor/Move +1
Bloody Strings/Genji Helmet/Genji Armor/Genji Gauntlet

He now has 362 MP, more than anyone else in my main army, and is equipped with a drain weapon! Victory! For symmetry's sake, I switch K-Variable over to dancer. With the mighty GENJIBARD ready to go, we head for Murond.

Murond Gate:

Hak replies to the priest's whining by shooting his geomancer friend. A mediator sentences Laggy to death and her partner reads terrible poetry to Ashley, but damage split mitigates some of the pain. K-Variable begins the nameless dance...Laggy kills the hell out of some mediator with Charge+2, OHKO. Zane charges meteor (why not) and Ashley readies Bahamut; the two of them are going to wipe the roof clean if this works out. The enemy throws a bunch of cure spells that they've been charging. Hak shoots a summoner, aborting Salamander.

Bahamut shows up (amusingly, nobody dies from that). Zane drops a meteor on the church, almost killing a priest. Nameless dance goes off; one geo is slept and a mediator is silenced (oh man). Laggy kills the other mediator with Charge+3. Hak shoots a geo and she's down. Let's drop another space rock on the church. That'll show em'. Meteor kills another geo. One priest left...nameless dance frogs him. Laggy's life expires due to death sentence. Hak shoots the frog priest for 729 damage (all right!) and that takes care of the peanut gallery.

Murond Entry Hall:

Ramza should quit trusting people. Seriously.

Shoot Vormav immediately. Rofel has 100% evade. Oh. K uses kiyomori. Laggy blade grasps Vormav; Shellbust Stab breaks Hak's black robe. Haste2 for the party. Charge Bahamut, shoot Vormav. Kletian charges flare; he and Vormav eat Bahamut...oops, counter magic. Zane and Ashley die. K-Variable uses muramasa. Flare fizzles. Shoot Vormav. GG.

I replace Hak's robe with a spare and we delve deeper.

Murond Temple:

Ah, the Zalbag fight. Hak shoots his brother for 250 and he A Saves. Zalbag sucks Hakaril's blood. Yay! Laggy and Hak take a giga flare. Let's hit everything with Bahamut. Hmm. Zalbag guards slow. Hurricane misses both Laggy and Ashley. Life song restores a few HP and dark holy kills vampire Hakaril. Bahamut drops Zalbag to critical, but he's still alive. K-Variable finishes him off with kiku.

I buy a few more katana and spare sets of robes before we head to Orbonne.

Orbonne Book Storage 4th Floor:

Laggy and K-variable start a song and dance (nameless dance, cheer song). Zane Haste2s. Ashley charges Bahamut to hit the approaching monks. Archer shoots Hak; Hak OHKOs the archer with his gun. Bahamut badly wounds the enemy monks and a lancer. Nameless dance inflicts some not very useful status (poison, one slow, silences a lancer). Monk throws a shuriken at Hak; he speed saves. Cheer song goes off; we all get a little faster. K-Variable finishes off a monk with muramasa. Zane Cure4s; Hak shoots at a distant lancer, but he blade grasps. Kiku kills a monk and badly wounds two lancers; Leviathan finishes one of the lancers off.

Cheer song! More moving and shooting! Dead lancers!

Zane learns teleport after the battle.

Book Storage 5th Floor:

Rofel and his mage army cannot stand before the might of our entertainment troupe! Hakaril Screams. I'll let Rofel's troops approach me and take them out when they come into range. A critical rug attack nearly kills an oracle; Laggy harps her to death afterward. Rofel casts..quick...on a priest. 'kay. And the priest...jumps. Huh. Haste2 time! Shooting the approaching second oracle OHKOs her. Laggy blade graps the priest who tries to land on him. Rofel casts quick again. He clearly likes seeing those priests jump.

Man, Rofel has insane defense. Laggy can only hit him for 52 with the basic attack command. By casting reflect on Laggy I can counter an incoming Demi2. Shoot Rofel. Priest lands on Ash; she's dead. Shellbust stab breaks Laggy's Genji armor. NOOOOO! Oh well. (Before anyone says "Maintenance!!!" he's using equip armor, durh). Demi2 hurts a bit. Rug to priest action occurs. Hak shoots Rofel. Laggy continues to abuse charging harp attacks. Shoot Rofel again and it's game.

Huh. Never noticed the translation quirk there; Rofel's spell chant ends with "Dejeon," which...in every other FF game is translated to "Warp" seeing as how the proper romanization is something more like "Dezone." Uh. Nevermind.

Murond Death City:

I deploy Reis for this battle just for the entertainment value; K-Variable stays at the base.

Shoot a time mage. She hi-potions herself. Laggy harps her to death. Reis punches a ninja to death. Zane Haste2s. Maybe I'll invite the samurai with the chirijiraden. Maybe I won't bother. Shoot Kletian. Dark Holy on Laggy, oh no! Laggy barely survives! Charge+2 wounds Kletian and heals Laggy. OK, now Laggy's dead--samurai hits him with muramasa. A ninja evades both of Reis' punches. Shoot Kletian again. Reraise on Laggy fails 'cause he's dead. A ninja attacks Ashley; he takes some of his own damage back. Bizen Boat deals damage to Ashley's MP; she'll retaliate by charging Leviathan. A time mage's Demi2 fizzles. Kletian throws Quick at a samurai--that'll save him from Leviathan, at least. Bizen Boat wipes out the rest of Ashley's MP!

Shoot Kletian again; he's critical, but critical quick doesn't trigger (whew). Zane raises Laggy, then a ninja throws a slasher and kills Zane. YES!!! Reis tries Holy Bracelet and it actually kills Kletian! XD

Murond Balk Fight:

Reis is getting deployed here, too. You can guess why. Ashley will stay behind.

Balk zaps Zane. Hak shoots Balk. The chemist with the glacier gun shoots Hakaril in return. Ashley kikus Balk (and a hyudra). Reis tames the hyudra. Yay! I made a friend! Cheer song, go! Zane heals everyone who's taken a spell gun hit. Triple Thunder kills my tame hydra. Balk hits K-Variable with arm aim.

I kinda want to invite Balk's chemist. Probably too much trouble; I don't need his gun that badly anyway. A hydra's triple flame doesn't do jack; Reis suggests he switch sides and he complies. Cheer song goes off and we all get a little quicker. I shoot Balk's chemist and kill him; if he countered Hak it would kill me, so I'll wait until Zane's Cure4 goes off. Which is immediately afterward. Balk arm aims his former pet hydra and flees. Triple thunder wastes Hakaril. Triple thunder kills Zane. Damn. I invite the tiamat. No way to raise Hakaril or kill Balk quickly enough--I'm actually gonna have to reset!

...or NOT. The tiamat triple thunders, hits Balk three times, and kills him. HAH! I only have one space left in my army, so I keep the tiamat.

Airship Graveyard/Hashmalum

At Laggy's request, I'm going to use my standard generics for this battle and the Altima fight.

Oh no, it's Hashmalum, the Regulator! He's gonna regulate me! Hashy has pegged Hak with meteor, so spreading out is in order. Shoot for 227, he damage splits. Laggy readies Charge+4; draw out kiyomori. Zane will try Demi2; Ashley readies Leviathan. Charge +4 for 468; Laggy barely survives the damage split counter. Meteor finishes both Laggy and Hakaril off. Demi2 misses (annoying). Leviathan is OK, though. Murasame draw out should help us survive a meteor. Or only K-Variable will live. Thanks, MP switch! Priority one: Raise Zane. That's immediate. Melt kills him and Ashley. Kiku...meteor will kill me horribly now. All right! MP Switch! Ashley raises Hakaril. Another kiku. Hak shoots for 370 (Fire 2 procs)...damage split kills him. Melt wipes my living characters.

Let's abandon K-Variable's silly dancer thing; she's going geo. Laggy can stay a bard, though. And no more equip armor silliness since he doesn't have the Genji body anymore--let's go with magic defense UP.

Round 2: Again, Hakaril is going to get meteored, so I move him away and shoot. K-Variable hits with muramasa and Zane hastes. Can't reraise Hak in time, so let's target raise at his panel. Hak dies. Ashley raises him. Laggy is singing the cheer song, so let's keep him the hell away. Shoot...oops, Fire2 again, dead Hak after damage split. Kiku. Zane teles and readies Raise2; this time I'll move Ashley up next to Hashy so he's hit with his own meteor. No way to get a summon off; rod hit! Cheer song, yay! Meteor kills Ash, but Hashy eats ~360 damage. Laggy's going to keep singing for now. Hak is raised. Hashmalum apparently doesn't like Laggy's singing, so he petrifies him with seal. Shoot Hashy again. Muramasa kills the Regulator and the housing market collapses.

I get a Ragnarok. Really? Was that a treasure from this fight before?

No setup changes.

Altima:

Ajora summons some angry demons and shows his/her true form. Demon support could get annoying. Hak shoots one for 258. Laggy wounds another with the power of music. Alma throws up MBarrier; Altima is charging Ultima. K-Variable rushes in; muramasa kills a demon. Ultima kills Alma, but she has reraise; Hak speed saves. Haste2 time. Ash charges Bahamut. An demon kills Hak with hurricane. Ulmaguest kills Laggy; Zane barely survives another attack and damage splits, but Ash is dead. Alma MBarriers again...and here comes Ultima. Only K-Variable is alive, so she kikus. Ashley reraises. Need to raise Hakaril! The ultima demons are not going to let that happen.

Draw out muramasa kills all the ultima demons. Ashley raises Hakaril! Hakaril Wishes Laggy hadn't died; Alma reraises and recasts MBarrier. Altima tries...Space Storage? o_O That doesn't do anything to me. Laggy is alive! Muramasa! Man, Altima still has MP. Hak shoots and runs. Laggy uses Charge+4; Alma raises Zane with Wish! Let's use Fairy to heal. NOW.

HAH! Altima is out of MP--Laggy hits her for 312 with Charge+4. Alma MBarriers Zane, but Altima deathspells. Fairy goes off and heals Zane, Ash, and Alma. Haste2, damnit! Shoot Altima again; Laggy readies Charge+4 again; Kiku; Alma MBarrier's Laggy (sweet)...that's it for the first phase.

Altima is...immune to all damage? What? This must be a temporary status; by the time Laggy's next turn rolls around all my hit rates aren't 0%. Shoot! Kiku! Space Storage Back kinda wastes Zane. Alma MBarriers K-Variable. Charge+4! Shoot again! Zane readies Holy. Ashley charges Lich. Laggy Charge+4s. Hak shoots--hmm, I've depleted Altima's MP. Alma helpfully MBarriers Zane; holy goes off, followed by muramasa and Charge+4. Lich hits--643 damage, way to go--and Altima physicals Zane to death. Shoot! Charge Lich...kiku kills Altima. K-Variable is the MVP!

Comments: The first phase of the Altima fight really feels like a solid FF final boss fight now. I barely escaped resetting; if K-Variable hadn't been able to kill the clustered demons and Ash get raise out we would've died. The second half is still not a big deal, even without speed break; haste alone is enough to keep you getting many turns to every one Altima has, and even if you didn't bring someone with haste, Alma is crazy with MBarrier. The invulnerability for the first few rounds scared the crap out of me, though. Might just be an AI thing, but she didn't really cast any spells on me except Space Storage Back and her physical isn't that scary.

All in all, good job! I'm very happy with this mod and would be quite willing to play through it again at some point; I think it feels overall improved from vanilla FFT in general. Maybe soon I'll check out DD...

[metroid composite]

I can see the argument for guns, definitely, although Talk Skill and Basic Skill are different enough (and Talk Skill arguably better enough), that I'm not sure it's as clean cut as all that. The only stat you really care about for guns, after all, is speed, where they're very similar.

Well...yes and no.  There's definitely a case for "I want to cast Meteor, and then fall back on a gun physical when I run out of MP".  This was the concept behind buffing Mediator the way we did.  If you're not actually using the other stats in such a way...well then frankly Item > Talk Skill.

Longbows, well, the coolest thing about longbows is the range/height thing (doubly so with Charge in the mix); a class without ignore height seems at a clear disadvantage. At least in any map suited to bow use in the first place. But on the other hand (and this is true of Mediators as well) nerfing Archers even a little bit seems like a step backwards.

The biggest problem I have here is conceptual.  Squires already have Crossbows--it doesn't feel like they should get Longbows, because Longbows take a lot of expertise, and Crossbows are the weapon even a trainee can use.

Actually, I have the same feelings about about Knight Swords.  In fact, between Squire and Geo it kinda feels like thematically Geo should be the Knight Sword users out of these two.  Hell, Agrias would love such a change, as she can't use the Squire class but can use the Geo class.  The problem I see here is balance implementation--Squire would basically have to out-stat Geo to account for the blatantly worse equipment, and then Geo would not be very competitive until its equipment rolled in.  (Granted, Knight Swords don't bother me as much as Longbows, because...what exactly is a Knight Sword and how does it differ from a regular sword?  It's not like it's a two-handed sword or anything).

Hadn't thought about Thunder Rod, although it's worth noting that there's still an MA drop from Wizard to Squire, and Black Magic still comes at the cost of a secondary, which could include, say, Charge +3 and an Iron Sword. Still, you're right, definitely changes the nature of the class in Chapter 1. (for the better, I'd still say; options of comparable overall merit but different specific strengths are exciting)

Rods do really embody the rough design we're going for with Squires (good at using skillsets, doesn't necessarily have a great physical, though they can have a decent physical).  And yeah, there's really no balance issue with Rod+Squire (after all, Squires eventually get Rune Blade, which is better than the best available rod).  Last I checked, Laggy had thematic concerns with Rods, though (it's not like sticks, which sound pretty sensible on Squire).

Which...we've been working around this by slowly slipping Rod-like effects onto Squire weapons (MA+1 Axe, Flame Whip strengthening fire).

[Dark Holy Elf]

I boo Squires getting Knight Swords on flavour reasons. I dunno, I feel like 5 move + competent stats is enough of a niche for them. They're solid, although I'm not sure how much I'll use them because they're boring.

Improving Flails (or making them more interesting at least) on the other hand is a pretty fair, quirky improvement for Squires that I can get behind.

I'm also a bit concerned about the special characters. I'd have to try them out, but I feel like they're in danger of being badly left behind. Take Holy Knight vs. Knight, now. -1 move, -20 PA, no DefsUp, skillset win isn't what it used to be, starts a chapter and a half later.

General trend of LFT has been to raise the competence of generics (far more improvements than nerfs to the generic classes, which will benefit generics + Ramza more than other special characters). Plot characters weren't really better than generics in vanilla FFT. You should see where this is going. Rafa/Malak have been improved but um yeah.

[Laggy]

Actually, Agrias got the same 3->4 move that Knight did.

That said, m.c. and I are both mutually kind of apathetic towards special characters (technically they can still do everything that non-Squire generics do as well, just that availability issue biting them in the ass; in a theoretical perfect world they ARE better unless you think Squire's actually superior to their base job) so we didn't touch on them much aside from making some improvements by popular demand. Orlandu was the only one who got nerfed and in almost an entirely insignificant way.

I mean... Musty got Equip Gun instead of Equip Axe, Agrias got the move buff, Rafamalak got their hits upped (and no friendly fire), Meliadoul got Ruins and Hats, and Cloud got innate Short Charge (plus not starting at Level 1). Yes, all minor buffs and not making up for the availability gap, but I'm not really aiming to make them competitive if you don't go out of your way to train them (and am not particularly fond of subscribing of the school of thought that just because you get it later it should be far more broken. Though for things that FFT already did this way, re: Orlandu/Excalibur, well, we didn't want to nerf things that were that iconic in the normal game >.>) People'll use them because they like them, not because they're devastating, for the most part. And that's still true.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Hmm, I thought Agrias was 3 move, still. Maybe I'm misremembering, or maybe it's just an out of date version. Musty getting Equip Gun is a cool change, if subtle, and one I highly approve of.

[Excal]

I wonder, is there a difference between her guest class and her PC class?  Because the one we were playing last week was the most recent one.

[Laggy]

Yeah, I forgot to change her Guest class. Oops >.>