LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)

[Laggy]

Some more changes I was willing to do since the documentation process is much saner now, and I'm leaving for the weekend so I may forget I did these:

* Lightning Stab's Add: Silence changed to Add: Zombie
* Death Sentence (Talk Skill)'s effect area increased from 1 to 2
* Dracula Mantle's evasion values changed from 28%/28% to 18%/38%

[Just Another Day]

Apropos of nothing in particular ( ), I'm pretty sure enemy Malak's Untruth skill is not getting any extra hits. Is this an oversight?

[Laggy]

No enemy Malak just sucks. Lacks Exploding Frog.

Sounds like RNG hate, honestly.

[Magetastic]

*Thinks Enemy Malak should have a skill allowing him to blow up frogs*

Would it be possible to put Add: Berserk on a weapon that generally would be laughed at if someone used it? Just as a flavour thing, I guess. Like, maybe, books. A sort of "Words. Hurt. Brain. Me. Smash. WORDS!"

[Laggy]

I am unfortunately more or less out of room for new item ideas (actual memory limitation, there are only so many custom item attributes that can be used and a bunch are already sharing the same slot - Bizen Boat and Faith Rod for instance, or Bracer and Power Sleeve.)

[Magetastic]

Well, so it goes. I just thought it'd be kinda neat.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Can I have that tutorial Archer I wanted from before?

[Laggy]

Sure, Djinn.

Re: new text editor. One of the advantages to this is that I'm now able to rename abilities and thus alter them to a greater degree than before. I could get rid of some of the excess Bio spells and overwrite those to make room for these. Some of the new skill ideas floating around (would like feedback on these):

Gil Taking being replaced with a new skill called Quick Attack. 1 range, 1 vert physical attack that always uses the Throw formula (Speed*WP) and ignores evasion. 300 JP or so. Doesn't work with Two Swords. Would encourage high WP weapon setups (Axe Squire, Flail Priest, etc.), giving a reason to set Steal on those.

Basic Skill potential additions:
A 1 range, 0 vert buff that adds Wall status (9CT invincibility) to an ally. Can't self-target. 800 JP. (Shield?)

A 1 range MP restoration (MA*5 to 10?) to an ally. 400 JP. (Can't think of any good names I'd like for this.)

A 1 range +1 Spd/PA/MA buff to an ally (again can't self-target). JP (expensive presumably). I'm not a fan of this, but mc is pushing it.

Any other ideas are welcome, although outside of Steal and Basic Skill I'm not seeing the real need to enhance/add to other skillsets (maaaaybe Battle Skill could be changed around), and I'd like to keep the amount of customized bits to "this skillset NEEDS this help" rather than "let's change what the skillset does".

[Just Another Day]

What about the idea of changing Stigma Magic to something that doesn't cure status (I had suggested a radius 1 random status attack)? m.c. was somewhat concerned that Punch Art had all 4 of HP healing, MP healing, revival, and status healing, which no other skillset possesses.

I like replacing Gil Taking.  Steal is cool enough, but it'll be nice to give it a bit of general utility beyond Steal Heart. Had you already changed Shine Lover? (less important, obviously, but)

Could expanding Black Magic's elemental damage repertoire be in order? (e.g. a Water, a Quake, and an Aero spell, I suppose)

I like Shield, but am not totally sold on the other Basic Skills; I agree with your reservations about the Scream applicator in particular.

[superaielman]

I'll third the general comments about the Scream ripoff. I can't see a real point to it, Basic Skill is fairly respectable as is and the Squire class doesn't need the buffing, considering the massive boosts it's gotten to stats and skillsets.

I like the MP restoration one, as long as it's not stepping on the toes of Chakra too hard. Which.. it doesn't, it can't really be buffed like Chakra can but does provide another skillset with some MP restoration.

[metroid composite]

Hm, well I'll explain the top-down approach to designing these that I discussed with Laggy.

The general idea came out of the discussion with Ryan on what other things Squires could do that made sense.  Historically Squire is supposed to do all sorts of things for the Knight, like carry around his Shield, his weaponry, and so forth; so from there I came to...

Bear provisions: (MP restoration)
Bear shield: (protective effect)
Bear arms: (offense boost)

Other stuff that was brainstormed at some point or another was a don't move (imprison enemy Knights is another thing Squires do--negative status doesn't fit with Basic Skill gameplaywise, though).  Other variations on offence boost (which in FFT is like...add: Faith, or add: Quick, both of which already exist).

[Just Another Day]

Hmmm, well I do like the general trend towards making Squire skills support others, and thus not self-target... One thing that had occurred to me during play, actually, was that Heal is very very very good right now; maybe as part of this overhaul it could stop self-targeting?

Still not sure I like a comprehensive buff, but maybe an MA/PA ranged partner to Yell (modded Accumulate, even)? Nor would a range 1 instant Quick (a la FE Dancers) feel totally out of place.

[Laggy]

Unfortunately there is no +MA formula available for use or I would have definitely pursued that idea.

Quick just worries me because instant Quick = two Basic Skill people can get anywhere they want on the entire battlefield without interruption.

[Just Another Day]

Point. You never have two dancers/bards in Fire Emblem either. Such a thing would definitely need to charge and/or cost MP (or HP?) to not be broken.

[Excal]

Granted, if you were going to give Scream (even weakened) to basic Squire, then you might consider adding an ability like that to Guts, since that'd effectively be taking away one of Ramza's big niches.

[Just Another Day]

I think it would be hilarious (not particularly themely, but not actively counter-so either) to make Ramza the same as normal squires, only with all his moves self-targeting rather than other-targeting.

[metroid composite]

the Squire class doesn't need the buffing, considering the massive boosts it's gotten to stats and skillsets.

Well...you'd think so, but just the other day Laggy and I had a conversation something like:

Laggy: "hey, what should be the second class for this character"
mc: "What about Time Mage?"
Laggy: "Nah, I've done Time Mage too often."
mc: "Hmm...ooh, what about Squire?"
Laggy: "What?  Eww, no."
mc: "Why not?  Squires are supposed to be Carriers, right?"
Laggy: "Yeah, but wouldn't I be better-off in...like...five other classes?"
mc: "I uhh...well...probably -_-."

And later in the conversation...

Laggy: "Well...I was going to do Two Hands Stick Oracle.  Maybe I can do Two Hands Stick Squire instead?"
mc: "Oh, yeah, I guess."
Laggy: "Although...I don't want to go all the way to Samurai just for Two Hands."
mc: "So...be a Squire with Draw Out?"
Laggy: "No, then there's no point to Two Hands, cause Draw Out will deal more damage than sticks."
mc: "MA*18 vs MA*12*2"
Laggy: "No, set Magic Attack Up, and equip for MA+2"
mc: "Oh.  Well.  Yeah."
(And at this point Geomancer has a pretty good argument to just outclass Squire with 2 more MA, more HP and evade, a good range attack, and a better physical; if they need to match Squire speed/move, swap Magic Gauntlet for Red Shoes and Flash Hat for Thief Hat; cancels the +2 MA, but not the HP/evade bonuses).


Basically, Laggy and I were brainstorming reasons to use Squire over other classes and...not feeling hugely successful.  This is why I went digging through this topic looking at the brainstorms with Ryan of "expensive abilities we could add to Basic Skill".

[metroid composite]

Granted, if you were going to give Scream (even weakened) to basic Squire, then you might consider adding an ability like that to Guts, since that'd effectively be taking away one of Ramza's big niches.

Oh, I'm pretty sure Laggy's planning to add every new Squire ability to Ubersquire.

Hell, if I remember correctly he added Yell to Delita Squire >_>

Still not sure I like a comprehensive buff, but maybe an MA/PA ranged partner to Yell (modded Accumulate, even)?

Like Laggy said we don't have access to +PA/+MA without speed modification.  We don't even have access to +MA IIRC.

An alternative option would be something like +1 PA or +2 PA, targetting allies.  Personally I'm kind of bothered that a skillset with more than one stat boosting move has no way to add MA+1 to anyone (hence suggesting that formula), although I suppose a pure PA booster makes more thematic sense in terms of "strengthen's the Knight's weapon".

[Yakumo]

Well, if a large point of this hack in general is to be thematic, then Squires not being a great choice of class kinda makes sense, given that the Squire is generally in training and shouldn't be as good as a fully trained class. <_<

That said I don't know FFT mechanics stuff to actually comment on what would or wouldn't work.  It just seems like you're going almost too far to make everything viable somehow when it seemed to me like the intention of the original was a progression of power.  Granted, they didn't get it quite right.

[Just Another Day]

Having given it, like, ten minutes more, thought, I'm realizing that the throwaway idea of an HP cost could make a lot of sense for the higher-end Squire abilities, both theme-wise and cost-wise, and of course the Worker 8 skills already do that so presumably it's possible to code. But yeah, single target +1 Spd PA MA in exchange for 25% HP doesn't seem terribly broken to me (likewise for a charged Quick ability). And a Squire ruining her health to help the other members of her party makes perfect sense.

[metroid composite]

Well, if a large point of this hack in general is to be thematic, then Squires not being a great choice of class kinda makes sense, given that the Squire is generally in training and shouldn't be as good as a fully trained class. <_<

Well...in most ways they're not, as good as a fully trained class (especially fresh out of the box).  That's a big part of what makes them hard to balance.

If you compare their stats to Knight stats, Knights have more HP, more PA, more evade (before we consider their innate defence bonuses).  This was done intentionally and for obvious thematic reasons.

Squire skills are called Basic Skill; there are a lot of abilities we just can't move to Squire because it wouldn't feel basic (like...nearly every ability in the game; that's why we shelved the idea of new Squire moves until the patching technology caught up with the ideas).

Having given it, like, ten minutes more, thought, I'm realizing that the throwaway idea of an HP cost could make a lot of sense for the higher-end Squire abilities, both theme-wise and cost-wise, and of course the Worker 8 skills already do that so presumably it's possible to code.

I don't think we can do HP cost (Worker 8 moves are "take 10% of the damage I deal to the target", which would be 0 damage here).

However, we were already talking about MP cost (to make wall chains harder, for one thing).  So...MP cost's definitely an option.

[Yakumo]

That's exactly my point, mc.  Frankly, I can't see a thematic reason why you should bother making it so you would want to go back to a trainee class after you've already 'graduated', so to speak. 

[metroid composite]

That's exactly my point, mc.  Frankly, I can't see a thematic reason why you should bother making it so you would want to go back to a trainee class after you've already 'graduated', so to speak. 

Because there's precedence for this kind of thing in FF games--stuff like the Bare class.

Because every other early class (Chemist, Knight, Archer, Priest, Wizard) is good.

Because this isn't one of those games with 120 classes where there's 10 different versions of the Warrior and each one's an upgrade.  The list of classes that become obsolete in original FFT rather than doing something past the earlygame/midgame is like...Squire, Archer, Thief, and Mime (out of 20 classes).

Because Squires used to have an important role (they got you Gained JP Up) but we made that automatic...sooo they don't really have a clear role now.

[Magetastic]

Thinking about this thematically, shouldn't Knight be harder to reach? I mean, you had to go through many many years of being a squire before you were even considered for knighthood, no? It was supposed to be a grand goal. Wouldn't maybe upping it to Squire lvl.3 or Squire lvl.4 make more sense, thematically? Though I imagine that hurts some important aspects of the game/doesn't make a big difference.

Thinking about this thematically, too, the Squire was often in charge of helping the knight gear up. Would it be possible, then, to extend the range of Change Equipment? Give the squire the ability to help others gear up properly?

I also feel iffy about the Quick, even with MP/JP/HP cost, as there's just so many ways to get both HP and MP back. I mean, if nothing else, if you need to heal a bunch of people, you quick a monk and they chakra, and now everyone's got health, and the squire has another quick without batting an eyelash.  I dunno. Just feels a little too easy to cheese to me. (And not very squire-ish)

[Laggy]

Okay.

Thematics is cool (and preferred) when going along with a general theme and trying to integrate it into gameplay.

Thematics is bad when you start making things harder for the sake of thematics.

Just want to put that out. It's still a game, after all, and the emphasis is rightly on the gameplay. When I think about thematics, it's much more "I shouldn't do this - it doesn't make any thematic sense" over "I should do this, even though it may be detrimental/annoying to gameplay - because it's thematic".