LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)

[Anthony Edward Stark]

Well, whatever. I went back and bought speed shoes and put on speed shoes and sat through that excruciatingly long set of cut scenes again.

[Laggy]

Okay, so I'm working on an update, and I pose this question mainly to the Vancouver group who's been running in the aftergame:

Math Skill. Particularly, Reraise. Too good, or fine as is? How much would it change your strategy if it was removed from the Math Skillable list?

[Just Another Day]

It's definitely the best ability in Math Skill at the moment, but I think it's pretty safe to say we'd still be using Math Skill even without it; haste, slow and confuse are all pretty indispensable, things like Cure 2 and the Pray/Doubt Faith are all good too. I'm agnostic, Excal prolly has more opinion.

Oh, wait, no, I've totally got something: reraise is way way more useful on us than it is harmful on enemies, since it doesn't actually make enemies immediately better, can be dispelled, doesn't affect undead or bosses, (unlike haste, which is a significant issue if it hits enemies, f'rex). I think that's probably a reason to drop it? The Cursed Ring would be better with less accessible Reraise, which I can't think is a bad thing either

[Excal]

Hmm, I think I like it on Math Skill.  I mean, sure, it's nice and all.  But, if it hits an enemy then it can be a real issue since you now need to either dispel that enemy, or you need to take some extra care regarding him.  And while it does have the issue of not mattering for certain classes of enemy, if the enemies put enough pressure on you, it's going to be competing with other skills that need to get out right away, whereas the Reraise itself can be preapplied by other means.

Something that may actually deserve seeing more use, especially in the after game, is enemies with more access to Dispel.  Whether it be in Yin Yang or Magic Break form.

That said, yeah.  Math Skill would still be good, and likely still usable over other skillsets.  It's been quite good as a support set.

[Just Another Day]

Oh, it's definitely a pain on enemies. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that in most of the tough uber-battles (see: End), the biggest challenge comes in the scrabble to get control early on. During that time, Reraise on an enemy or two is bad but not usually fatal (it means that they can take one more hit, or that they get left 'till last). Haste on an enemy or two (other than Dancers, Bards and Mimes  ) usually means game-over.

[metroid composite]

I'm of two minds with it.

#1: It completely destroys a couple of Zodiac fights--this should be taken seriously as an imbalance.
#2: It adds variety to the revival mechanic which wouldn't be there otherwise. Reraise really does play differently than regular revival, and you usually want a mixture of both.
#3: In most fights it does matter when you hit some targets with Reraise--it's not like some of the potentially abusive Math Skill setups like Flame Shields + Fire1 ...or Black Hoods + Demi ...or confusion blocking + Confusion Song ...or Don't Move + Dance.  You usually do want to be careful who you hit with it, and that's exactly the kind of spell that Math Skill should emphasize.
#4: Yes, Math Skill would still be worth using without it.


Alright, so...analysis.  #3 I'm not too worried about--the concern with full team equipment cheese is that people will just spam it and nothing else.  But I haven't read about people playing this way.  There's enough powerful "can backfire" type spells that I don't think Reraise would break here, and as Ryan mentioned, the negative of hitting an enemy with Reraise is comparatively not as bad as some other statuses, so it's not a great poster child.  #1 and #4 both point towards it being a good idea.

My concern is #2.  And, to be honest, I think the way to fix this is to put reraise (but not revival) on another class that could use a boost.  So...what are our options...

Note, for starters, it's usually better if Reraise abilities can not self-target (since then you're a total freaking cockroach since you just Reraise yourself the moment you get up).  Note this isn't a problem in white magic thanks to charge time and mana cost and inaccuracy.

Samurai: Would fit, but good grief they don't need a buff.
Monk: I'd be okay with replacing Revive with a Reraise ability.  I'd be tempted to raise the accuracy, and maybe make it Earth Slash style targetting (able to hit, say, two people).
Squire: They provide Smelling Salts for their Knight!!1  (The flavour is a little shaky, but yeah, I'm still looking for "play more Squire" incentives >_>)
Thief: Steal Death!  It doesn't really make much flavour sense, but Steal Death is a hillarious name.
Summoner: Much like Samurai I have major power level concerns here.  At best I could maybe see it as a 25% added status on one of their spells.
Bard: Could do something wild like make Nameless Song just Reraise.  This has a lot of the same problems it had in Math Skill, though (although charge time keeps things somewhat in-check, particularly for the aftergame).

Aaand...it doesn't really fit in any other skillsets.  Anyhow, not saying any one of these is a good idea, just brainstorming the possibilities.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I generally don't think Math'd Reraise is too strong. It's probably the best Math Skill, but something has to be. I guess it helps that as a prebuff I don't find it especially cheap because Angel Ring already exists. It's still a bizarre means of mass revival, but one with drawbacks... seems fine. Though yeah, the self-targetting thing has potential for obnoxiousness. We haven't really tapped that since our Math Skiller can be statused, but it seems like it could be pretty crazy in a party with lots of ribbon-type gear (inculding on the math skiller). I guess that's okay, though.

I'm in favour of keeping it because I believe removing it would decrease the variety of Math Skill (unlike how, say, removing Holy effectively increased it).

[metroid composite]

Random thought: is there any way to make Reraise bring the person back at higher health?  Specifically, RU{MaxHP / 5}?  The reason being that this would make enemies not act stupid when they wake up (i.e. attack you instead of running away).

Random thought #2: If we made the Reraise White Magic unable to affect self, would the Reraise Mathskill then also not affect self?

[Laggy]

1. I don't think so, but I'll dig around. Status effects tends to be hardcoded, so it would require hex editing.
2. Also no clue, for all that I'd find it somewhat odd as it'd be the only Math Skillable spell that can't actually target yourself.

[Excal]

Again, it's not like using Math Skill to hit oneself will always be a viable option without having several enemies also sitting there waiting to receive your buff.  That said, having more than one way to add Reraise would be neat.  It'd also remove some of the pressure to always have access to ressurection.

The Thief and Squire options also appeal.  Though, perhaps some kind of legendary oratory for Mediators (though...  they really don't feel like they need the boost anymore)  My only real concern about adding Reraise to Squire is the fact that basic squire would be again moving towards being better than ubersquire.

[metroid composite]

Again, it's not like using Math Skill to hit oneself will always be a viable option without having several enemies also sitting there waiting to receive your buff.

Oooh, point, Math Skill actually has a weakness there that other self-reraise skills might not.

The Thief and Squire options also appeal.  Though, perhaps some kind of legendary oratory for Mediators (though...  they really don't feel like they need the boost anymore)  My only real concern about adding Reraise to Squire is the fact that basic squire would be again moving towards being better than ubersquire.

I thought about Mediators, but it didn't seem to fit, since it neither causes a permanent change, nor is it a negative status on the enemy.  I mean, thematically Mediators could be justified for quite a bit of positive status.  "Call to Arms" for Quick, "invigorating speech" for Haste, "Self Help speech" for Regen.  Positive speech makers would work thematically.  Right now, Mediators just aren't.  Mediators are assholes that insult you, intentionally bore you to sleep, bog down negotiations with red tape, and preach the word of Jesus to anyone who will listen.  They're pretty much... ...must ...resist ...obvious ...politics ...joke...

Squire works kinda well mechanically for the opposite reason.  "I support you in different ways than other support classes, but only if I can get right next to you" is kinda their thing. One other bonus about Squire is that it could potentially help with complaints people have about the general lack of earlygame revival.

As for Ramza power concerns, I'd be okay with a mild Ramza Squire buff.  No, he doesn't need it, but for example everyone comments on how freaking weird it is that generic Squires have 5 move, but the main character Squire has 4.  This seriously bugs people.  Yes, he's fine at 4, but I've been feeling more and more like he should be bumped up to 5, because he just feels wrong at 4.  (This is actually a design trick I learned by reading Rosewater--if everyone feels like thing X should behave like Y, then it should behave like Y).  (Side note--Delita and Algus can stay 4; I haven't seen anyone comment on how it "feels weird" that those two have less move).

[Laggy]

Upcoming planned update changes. 90% are item related, as you can see.

* Materia Blade (removed Add:Petrify)
* Ice Rod (availability moved to Ch1 Kill Miluda)
* Thunder Rod (availability moved to Ch2 Start)
* Mace of Zeus (added Magic:Bolt 4)
* Bloody Strings (WP drop from 20 to 18)
* Ramia Harp (WP drop from 30 to 28)
* Fairy Harp (WP drop from 50 to 38)
* Madlemgen (removed Water elemental, added Strengthen:Water)
* Ivory Rod (added Add:Petrify)
* Cashmere (removed MA+2, PA+2 raised to PA+3)
* Circlet (added PA+3)
* Black Hood (added PA+1)
* Carabini Mail (added Cancel:Chicken)
* Black Costume (changed Absorb:Dark to Cancel:Dark)
* Rubber Shoes (removed Cancel:Don't Move)
* Power Wrist (price changed to 800 gil, availability moved to Ch1 Enter Igros)
* Magic Gauntlet (availability changed to Ch3 Meet Zalmo)
* Reflect Ring (price changed to 4000 gil)
* Defense Ring (added Cancel:Dead/Darkness, added Half:Dark, price changed to 2000 gil, renamed to Peace Ring)
* Magic Ring (price changed to 800 gil, immunities removed, MA+1 added, availability moved to Ch1 Enter Igros)
* Cursed Ring (nerfed back to Speed+1 from +2, added Move+1 and Jump+1)
* Angel Ring (removed Cancel:Darkness/Dead)
* Diamond Armlet (removed Cancel:Slow)
* Jade Armlet (added Cancel:Don't Move/Don't Act, added Half:Earth, price changed to 3000 gil)
* 108 Gems (removed Cancel:Undead/Blood Suck/Frog/Poison)
* N-Kai Armlet (added Cancel:Berserk/Silence, removed Half:Dark, added Half:Holy, price changed to 3000 gil)
* Defense Armlet (removed current immunities, added Cancel:Frog/Blood Suck/Undead/Poison and Half:Water, price changed to 2000 gil)
* Small Mantle (p.evade increased to 18%, m.evade increased to 18%)
* Leather Mantle (price changed to 2000 gil, added PA+1, p.evade decreased to 12%, m.evade increased to 12%, availability changed to Ch2 Meet Draclau)
* Wizard Mantle (p.evade decreased to 12%, m.evade decreased to 12%)
* Elf Mantle (price changed to 4000 gil, added Cancel:Slow, availability moved to Ch3 Start)
* Dracula Mantle (p.evade decreased to 11%, m.evade increased to 33%, grants Always:Protect/Shell, Weak:Holy, made unavailable in shops/steal off Zalbag or poach only)
* Chantage (removed Always:Regen)
* Cherche (removed Always:Float, added MA+3 and Always:Shell)
* Semietson (removed MA+1, removed Start:Transparent)
* Salty Rage (removed Always:Shell, added PA+3 and Always:Regen)

Other stuff:
* Cheer Up got renamed to Rally, adds Reraise status to an ally, can't be self-targetted
* Fire 2's MP cost got raised back to 12
* Zodiacs got resistance to Speed Break (can't be dropped below 4 speed)
* Queklain got added support (2 Undead Knights), HP and damage dropped to compensate
* Various C4 encounters got improved, added more enemies
* Squid series got innate Martial Arts
* Black Ink multiplier increased from 3 to 4
* Mind Blast base hit rate increased from 35 to 45
* Kiku and Bizen Boat ranges decreased from 8 to 6
* Poach change: Ochu rare changed from Chameleon Robe to Dracula Mantle

[Taishyr]

lolQueksupport

* Taitoro probably shouldn't talk, being an unfair douche and all, but.

[Laggy]

Random thought:

Why not change Cheer Up to add Reraise instead of Brave increasing?
1) Makes Praise not feel somewhat redundant and cements Mediator's niche in Br/Fa modification.
2) Thematically makes sense.
3) Arguably an Ubersquire buff to make it stand out more compared to normal Squire, and Guts is certainly accessible enough throughout the game that making use of that Reraise mechanic would be readily available. Also, making it not self-targetable is completely justifiable - Yell works exactly the same way now.

Note that I don't know if this really justifies removing Reraise from Math Skill, but even as a standalone change it seems to be desirable.

[Taishyr]

Makes some sense to me, yeah. Not sure the name fits then but.

[metroid composite]

Yeah, I'd be okay with changing Cheer Up, but I will say "Cheer Up" as a name does thematically suggest brave raising (sounds very similar to Praise.  Additionally, the character in the story who is most miserable is Rafa--the one with by far the lowest brave.  The one with the Highest brave is Orlandu, whose recruitment scene is him cheerfully laughing about his memories of kid-Ramza).

[metroid composite]

Although hmm...

One of the ideas is to give Reraise and NOT Revival to an early class, to encourage the kind of different gameplay situations that had been coming up with Calculator.  Ubersquire, however, DOES have Revival (namely Wish) so you don't get that tension of "I need to reraise that person before she goes down or I won't be able to bring her back!!"

[Laggy]

Wish gets notoriously impractical the later in the game you are (range 1, 7CT, low HP restored). It services as early C1 resurrection (which is entirely what it's supposed to do), but past that... I don't think it's quite in the same vein as Raise, Phoenix Down, or even Revive (which at least is instant and 20% restoral).

I also can't really think of any other skillsets Reraise works on right now, for reasons that have already been touched on, and even in a theoretical few why it wouldn't be self-targetable for those skillsets without being a black sheep. Whereas Cheer Up fills that role nicely.

[Excal]

I would like to second Cyril here.  More fitting names for Wish in Ch4 in general, and the optional battles in particular run along the lines of Death Wish, Suicide Wish, and I Wish to Die Swiftly Yet Painfully.  We did our End Run with Ubersquire, and Ramza was considered the only member of the party without ressurection.  Same with the Colliary when I had Guts equipped, or any other DD or hard Ch4 fight.  So, speaking as someone with both Reraise and Wish on the same character at the same time, I would like to testify that that tension is still plenty strong.

[metroid composite]

and even in a theoretical few why it wouldn't be self-targetable for those skillsets without being a black sheep.

Umm...wouldn't be a black sheep in Steal--nothing in Steal self-targets.  Not really a black sheep in Basic Skill since neither Yell nor Shield can self-target either.  (And while technically Heal can, many statuses that you can cure prevent the Squire from using Heal).

But yeah, other than those two, most other candidate skillsets have self-targetting as a default.

[Laggy]

Those two skillsets have other issues (thematic for Steal, and Squire not needing new toys over Ubersquire with all the royal treatment it's gotten).

[Excal]

You could just give it to Squire and to Ubersquire.

[Laggy]

That would break Ramza's trend of getting new skills, and he's already lost one of his C1 ones (it isn't broken because he gets two there >_>)

[metroid composite]

Squire not needing new toys over Ubersquire with all the royal treatment it's gotten.

Doesn't have to be a new toy.  I could see good arguments for switching the "Shield" skill from the Wall status to the Reraise status.

For starters, there's the thematic argument: Wall stops everything; Wall stops you from being hit by talk skills and by magic area healing from your own teammates.  Squires shielding you from harm makes sense.  Squires being the FFT equivalent of the witness protection program...is a bit of an overkill way to implement "shield you from harm".  If you look at Reraise by comparison, it helps you take a hit, but it doesn't make you untouchable.

Secondly is mechanical.  Wall as an ability isn't terribly useful during the normal game, but allows for some completely game-breaking lategame parties.  Vice versa, Reraise would be pretty handy all of the time, but never broken.

The third reason is consistency in timing.  Everything else Squires do is a change that lasts the rest of the battle.  Buff a stat.  Cure statuses.  Give some MP.  These things can change, but not without outside intervention (enemies could break stats, status you, or you could use some MP).  Wall doesn't fit this pattern since it wears off in 9 clockticks.  Reraise lasts forever barring outside intervention.

So...yeah: doesn't have to be a new move if you object to making new Squire moves.

[metroid composite]

The result of a good 3-4 hour AIM conversation, with lots of brainstorming of names, effects, etc:

Laggy: So we're changing Shield to Reinforce, making it add Reraise
mc: Are we changing the 800 JP cost on Reinforce to give people more earlygame revival choices?
Laggy: No.
Laggy: Squire needs JP sinks, remember?
mc: Oh right.


Laggy: and Cheer Up to give a quick effect
Laggy: I was thinking 160ish hit rate
[...uses Faith formula, but keeps Cheer Up's instant speed, no MP cost, 3 range]


And...I think that seals up the open discussions.  New patch most likely sometime within the next 24 hours.