LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)

[Laggy]

I consistently feel (especially in the later chapters, where DO shines anyway) that instant >>>> not-instant. MP is not really a big deal, but the whole fact that it goes off instantly is veeeeery important - offing people before they get their turns and not having to wait for a 7-9CT spell to execute is that big of a deal. Hell, it's why Ninjas, despite having to deal with all the drawbacks of a basic physical, get by fine - the speed and instant payout is that good. The later you get in the game, the more instant abilities grow in value, as well.

And even without Teleport, DOers don't have that much issue getting to where they want - any 4 move carrier (mainly Geo, though Squires can do it now too with 5 move to boot!) plus Red Shoes (standard for a DO setup) is solid, before factoring in Move+ abilities or anything like that.

That all said, though, the idea behind this is not necessarily to nerf DO strictly but to put more thought in how it's used. For whatever reason I just find how the damage abilities go off entirely obvious (if you can hit a bunch of enemies, you pretty much do it! If you can OHKO someone within range, you do it!) and dull in that sense. There's little need to look any turns down the road, or wonder if it's a bad idea to wander into a nest of enemies (like Ninjas have to worry about).

Platina Dagger and Bamboo Rod: wtf. I'll check, that's just o_O

[Dark Holy Elf]

Regarding Draw Out, if there's a general rebalancing, I definitely feel that the earlier katanas need to show up earlier. The class has a dead skillset for one and a half chapters which is frankly rather inexcusable. Start Chapter 2 seems like the latest Asura should show up, and you could go earlier if you thought people would reasonably get Samurai in C1. I'm not averse to balancing it in response to this (WP or Draw Out power or both) but yeah. Part of the problem Draw Out has, I feel, is the good stuff comes in a rush, generally. Asura and Koutetsu at literally the same check point. Kiyomori and Murasame within a few battles of each other. The lowest power and highest power (besides Chiri) Draw Outs are a mere 1.5 chapters apart. etc.

[Taishyr]

I think NEB hits the nail on the head. I'd not mind seeing the overall power reduced/rebalanced slightly, perhaps along the lines you were thinking, Laggy, but spacing out the skillset would help its early use.

[Laggy]

Oh yeah, I'm cool with reordering the stuff in tandem with all of this. Making DO better earlier in return to lowering the power of the skillset slightly throughout = fine by me.

[Just Another Day]

Note me down (unsurprisingly, I'm sure) in favour of something along the lines of the status redistribution you were proposing, to make the individual offensive abilities more interesting. Very much in favour of rebalancing and making earlier, too. Nor do I necessarily think it would be the end of the world if they didn't target only allies/enemies (I would in fact suggest that this is less important thematically than high power, if it comes down to one or the other).

[Laggy]

Yeah, I wanted to go with the targeting shenanigans change rather than just a damage drop just to mix up things a bit and generally increase the amount of care you have to use with the skillset rather than nerf the power (even with mults nerfed on DO, it's still used essentially the same way.)

Also, Platina Dagger and Battle Bamboo seem to be working as intended for me. Testing it on a 10 speed, 8 PA, 12 MA char, and I'm getting 63 damage with the dagger (9*7) and 84 damage with the stick (12*7) on neutral compat. Could you double-check to confirm that you're still experiencing this issue?

[Laggy]

Okay, here's a quick summary of proposed changes:

Asura: 11 mult 2v3 AoE, adds Dead, available C2 Start
Koutetsu: 13 mult 2v3 AoE, adds Don't Move, available C2 Save Ovelia
Bizen Boat: 8 mult 6v3 line, MP destruction, adds Sleep, available C2 Meet Draclau
Murasame: 10 mult 2v3 AoE, HP healing, available C2 Save Agrias
Heaven's Cloud: 15 mult 2v3 AoE, adds Confusion, available C3 Meet Zalmo
Kiyomori: adds Protect/Shell 2v3 AoE, available C3 Save Rafa
Muramasa: 17 mult 2v3 AoE, adds Death Sentence, available C4 Start
Kikuichimoji: 12 mult 6v3 line, available C4 Bethla

The last 4 katanas have not been changed in availability; the first 4 all got moved back 1 checkpoint (except for Asura, which got moved back 2).

[Luther Lansfeld]

It was on the Ghostie battle, we didn't try it anywhere else. You'll have to ask Excal to test it some more (as much as playing LFT is appealing to me right now, I don't have a copy)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yep, Zigolis Swamp plot battle. Worth noting it seemed to be working that way on everything we tested on (both different ghosties, the Morbol, and PCs).

[Laggy]

Konfusion.

I'll pester Excal to test it, and if it's still an issue I'll send him a new patch for next week. Not sure what's up there.

[Magetastic]

Am I wrong, or is this the second time something has glitched for just us? First Gaffgarini, now this. (And yes, it was tested on PCs, ghouls, skeletons, and the marlboro. Every type of unit had it tested on them at some point)

Unless someone else is playing the game the same way we are (doing it off the disc exchange), it might just be the way we're downloading it that has errors. Either way, definitely something (what's making us unique, if we are) to look into if this trend keeps up.

[Laggy]

I'm honestly not sure. The thing is, I saw the Gaffy name change bug too, but that was isolated to my save file rather than to my LFT copy.

And, since it's a very slow weekend at work, here's a skillset compilation summary of how I feel things stand:


Basic Skill: Buffed to heck and back, happy with it.

Item: Still awesome.

Battle Skill: Seen it called overpowered on several occasions (mainly early on); not worried.

Charge: Works. Doesn't stand out, but there's not much else to be done about it, and it's definitely usable (just boring).

Punch Art: Was already considered at least decent, got nothing but improvements.

White Magic: Everything non-Holy was improved. Default skillset for revival (competing with Item). It's fine.

Black Magic: Ehhh. Got nothing but improvements, too, yet still feels underwhelming. Seems to be mostly ignored because Wizard is that good... but MAU just got nerfed. I'd like to look at this one more closely.

Time Magic: Is fine. Haste/Slow got nerfed, but near everything else got better.

Summon Magic: Got hit with a pretty large nerfstick and still competing for one of the best skillsets, so not worried. Just a large investment.

Steal: Quick Attack pretty much saves this from being 100% niche. That said, it's a popular niche, so again I'm not too concerned (and at least you get Steal Heart too). It does still kind of suck, but it sucking is strangely part of its balance (since you set it to get really good gear).

Talk Skill: Is really solid now. Competes with Yin-Yang decently, and has Br/Fa modification.

Yin-Yang Magic: There are a number of times where you'd rather status things out than try to slug outright (Hi Knights!), so its value went up in that regard. Life Drain got nerfed, but is still solid vs bosses. Status hit rates went up in general.

Elemental: Uhh... I dunno. I've argued raising it before, but mc is of the viewpoint that it still gets used when you're Geo and probably never set otherwise no matter what's done. Offhandedly, I'm not adverse to improving the formula's mult ([PA+X]/2*MA, where X is currently 2), but it'd be minor nonetheless.

Jump: Jump is good. It's just boring. Again, not much to be done.

Draw Out: Just went over this.

Throw: Same boat as Elemental except I can't even change the formula here, so yeah.

Sing: I honestly have no clue. It's great with a Mime, and I haven't seen it used without. All of the songs are pretty much usable without any screaming too good (unlike Dance, which is a sea of crap and then you have Nameless/Slow). I generally think it's fine, though.

Dance: Arguably overpowered, but... it's out of the way and it does get worse later in the game as CT charge times matter more. (Nameless Dance being the culprit, here, especially combined with easily accessible Mimes.) After all, it's not worse than...

Math Skill: When all's said and done, Math Skill is broken, but it's a very fun kind of broken, and now that it actually takes thought to use, I think we can be happy with it.

CONCLUSION: I'd like to look at Black Magic some, and see if we can change it up a bit (I don't think a buffing is uncalled for with MAU getting nerfed). My current idea is to drop the CT some more to distinguish it from Summon and increase the MP cost (so make it expensive, but faster casting). It still can't beat Summon in versatality or area, still has to deal with evasion, and still hits allies. Elemental/Dance/Steal are other stuff I'm unsure about, in that order of relevance.

[metroid composite]

Okay, here's a quick summary of proposed changes:

Asura: 11 mult 2v3 AoE, adds Dead, available C2 Start
Koutetsu: 13 mult 2v3 AoE, adds Don't Move, available C2 Save Ovelia
Bizen Boat: 8 mult 6v3 line, MP destruction, adds Sleep, available C2 Meet Draclau
Murasame: 10 mult 2v3 AoE, HP healing, available C2 Save Agrias
Heaven's Cloud: 15 mult 2v3 AoE, adds Confusion, available C3 Meet Zalmo
Kiyomori: adds Protect/Shell 2v3 AoE, available C3 Save Rafa
Muramasa: 17 mult 2v3 AoE, adds Death Sentence, available C4 Start
Kikuichimoji: 12 mult 6v3 line, available C4 Bethla

If you're trying to spread things out I'd shufle things around so that you don't have two AoE katanas right next to each other (like Asura and Koutetsu being three fights apart).

Past that, I'm not sure how I feel about this damage curve.  Comparing it to stick damage...you start out with Cypress Rod vs Koutetsu, which is 7xMA vs 13xMA, almost double, and you end up with Octagon Rod vs Muramasa which is 12xMA vs 17xMA, a 40% gap.

[Laggy]

Koutetsu and Bizen Boat can be swapped.

10/12/14/16 could be used, instead, if you prefer to even things out more? I'm not sure. (This does make Koutetsu later.)

EDIT: This means it's AoE, Bizen Boat, AoE, Murasame, AoE, Kiyomori, AoE, Kiku, which is about as optimal as you can get for spread.

[metroid composite]

Koutetsu and Bizen Boat can be swapped.

10/12/14/16 could be used, instead, if you prefer to even things out more? I'm not sure. (This does make Koutetsu later.)

Hmm, error on my part: Cypress Rod is 6 WP, not 7 WP.

Anyhow, that proposition would make it Asura 70% over Cypress, Koutetsu 70% over Battle Bamboo.  Heaven's Cloud a 55% increase over Iron Fan.  Muramasa would be a 33% increase over Octagon.

My point I guess is this: I'm feeling like that's high damage for Chapter 2.  And in regular FFT it wouldn't be a big deal because Samurai have much less MA, and you're likely to be still learning Samurai abilities in C2.

[Laggy]

Okay, try 8/11/14/17 then. That's going against 6/7/9/12 for compared sticks. 33%, 57%, 56%, 42% increases respectively, though keep in mind that Octagon is a C4 Bethla pickup while Muramasa is C4 Start (so that percentage should probably be higher) and I'm trying to actually give a reason to use the lower DOs (though, if they hit allies now, there are instances where you will want to use lower damage ones >_>)

The issue I have with this +3 per AoE progression is that Heaven's Cloud really looks like a loser. Muramasa comes too fast, and generally the damage is preferable. But there's no checkpoints to spare unless we punt Kiku all the way to endgame (Zalera checkpoint), which would hurt Kiku a LOT and I don't want to do that. Could also just bump HC up to 15 and say screw the pattern, honestly, which is a thought.

The better status inflictions are on the earlier ones, as well, so for instance Asura's relatively lower damage boost doesn't bother me as much when 25% ID is attached to it.

EDIT: Bizen Boat can't attach status, so looks like it'll be Asura-Dead, Koutetsu-Don't Move, Heaven's Cloud-Sleep, Muramasa-Death Sentence. I'm pretty much giving up trying to make Koutetsu and Heaven's Cloud competitive with each other and comparing pairs instead (Asura to Koutetsu, Heaven's Cloud to Muramasa). This assumes 8/11/14/17 multipliers. In any case, Koutetsu still has theoretical use for when you can kill enemies with the damage (and not kill allies with it, while Mura would) but don't want to risk hax status on your own teammates if they're in the way!!!

[metroid composite]

If you're worried about Heaven's Cloud, you could bring back Add: Slow.  Tends to be the best status to pull out against bosses (who are generally immune to most stuff other than slow).  Also a status that if you hit your own people with, you can deal with fairly simply (Haste 2, Masamune).  At the same time, it's not hard to find a status in-between Slow and Dead in power-level (Stop, for example) so it wouldn't have to crowd Koutetsu.

[Laggy]

I'm trying not to yank all the statuses from another skillset (if you notice, it's currently Dead/Sleep/Don't Move/Death Sentence right now, from Black Magic, Yin-Yang, Time, and Talk Skill/Punch Art respectively.)

That said I think Sleep is solid enough to make HC appealing over Muramasa. Unless you feel Slow's more worthwhile (it is vs bosses, but for general use and given the fact that it's AoE? I'd probably value Sleep higher.)

[metroid composite]

Yeah, Sleep > Slow in the vast majority of fights.  Actually, arguably Sleep > Stop.  But...yeah, I'd swap Don't Move with the original Slow, if only because it has some fights were it's really good, and you get the continuity from original FFT.

[Luther Lansfeld]

I was reading your post, and I don't see why it's necessary to make Murasame and Kiku at different checkpoints. They serve different niches regardless, so having them at the same time is far more excusable than Asura/Koe being at the same time.

[Laggy]

You mean moving Muramasa up to Bethla instead of C4 Start? I... wouldn't have any strong objections to that at all, no. Dunno how others feel. It'd just be weird to have two weapons of the same type show up at the same time (then again, it was already weird with Asura and Koutetsu).

mc: Sure, I can swap Don't Move off for Slow on Koutetsu. I was just picking what I felt was the underused status is all.

[metroid composite]

But there's no checkpoints to spare unless we punt Kiku all the way to endgame (Zalera checkpoint), which would hurt Kiku a LOT and I don't want to do that.

Hurting Kiku wouldn't be anything new--you dropped the damage and made it range 6 already.  Are you worried that people won't use it?

Although...side note: Kiku becomes a lot worse if we let katanas damage allies.  One of the big things that made Kiku attractive over Earth Slash is that Kiku doesn't hit allies.  Add that in and I start to feel that Kiku now compares pretty unfavourably to Earth Slash.

[Laggy]

Really? I'd kneejerk that avoiding hitting allies in 2v3 is considerably harder than avoiding hurting them in a line. I don't really think it matters all that much (Archmage even commented that changing DOs to hit allies/enemies both would make him inclined to use Kiku MORE over, say, Muramasa.)

Nah, I'm not worried about Kiku not being used, just that making the ability inaccessible even longer seems like a nerf to it in a way I'm not pursuing - I had issues with its power, not with its availability. The idea was to make DO accessible *earlier*, not later, after all.

Side note: Technically DOs will hit the caster if I just flip on the "hit allies" flag, including the damaging ones. Obviously I'm turning off the user as a target, but this means Murasame and Kiyomori will be black sheep in terms of targetting. I assume no one minds this >_>

[metroid composite]

The idea was to make DO accessible *earlier*, not later, after all.

Actually, no, that wasn't precisely the idea; here's Elfboy's original post:

Part of the problem Draw Out has, I feel, is the good stuff comes in a rush, generally. Asura and Koutetsu at literally the same check point. Kiyomori and Murasame within a few battles of each other.  The lowest power and highest power (besides Chiri) Draw Outs are a mere 1.5 chapters apart. etc.

The idea was to spread katanas out more, not make them earlier; spreading out katanas means we make the early katanas earlier, but....

Side note: Technically DOs will hit the caster if I just flip on the "hit allies" flag, including the damaging ones. Obviously I'm turning off the user as a target, but this means Murasame and Kiyomori will be black sheep in terms of targetting. I assume no one minds this >_>

Yeah, that's pretty standard.  Fire 4 doesn't hit caster, but Cure 4 does.

[Laggy]

Eh, point. If you're advocating moving Muramasa and Kiku later (1 checkpoint each), just say so; I'm pretty apathetic either way on that.

Off-topic, Black Magic suggestions... could you think of a way to make them balanced/interesting if they followed a 3-4-5-6 CT cast time progression? (In terms of mults and MP cost. Assume AoE remains identical to current effects. The idea is to make Black Magic be the magic damage skillset that isn't very MP efficient but gets spells off relatively quickly compared to Summon, or Meteor.)