LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)

[metroid composite]

I'm against it.

Geomancer already exists as a mage class with shields and a physical attack.  And frankly other than Move MP Up it does it better than Oracle overall (more MA.  More MA boosting.  More movement...and by the way movement is one of the most important elements if you want to encourage a melee class.  Dramatically more HP.  Learns a counter that punishes enemy physicals.)  Seriously, this change makes Oracles a clone of an existing class for setup, except generally worse.  Oh, and by the way, Oracles and Geomancers were already compared a lot in original FFT--they were both melee mages with skillsets that cause status.  Oracle vs Geomancer is a topic I've seen come up more than once on the FFT board.  I don't want to make them even more similar.

The move-MP-Up thing is a bit unfortunate, but not tragic.  If you want Move HP Up on your Oracle, you can still set it, you just lose move-MP-Up in the process.  And that's really the only negative effect.  Otherwise I'd say it makes customization more interesting--you can combine stuff like Move+2 with Move MP Up, or Ignore Height with Move MP Up.  If you really like Move MP Up on a character, you'll obviously use it outside of Oracle, but probably want to also learn another movement ability while in Oracle.

Where it would make Oracle more interesting is if you had no plans to go outside of the mage group (say you were doing Calculator or whatever).  Then sure, Shields are something you don't get in the other calc prerequisites.

[Dark Holy Elf]

The shield/rod thing I will think about my opinion on. I can see the arguments both ways.

I am firmly in favour of them keeping Move-MP Up. I think that's a seriously cool innate and gives a nice wrinkle to the MP war for mages - Oracles are better for long fights, TMs/Summoners for short fights. I really don't care if Move-HP Up crowds it out since you can just choose not to set that. (If Move-MP always trumped Move-HP, then I'd see the objection.)


Dorter Trade City

Jude goes Bow-Thief, Raquel goes Sword-Monk. Not much to say about this battle, I am totally distracted during it because friends show up so I make some mistakes and don't remember it well. I still win. It's better, but no match for the might of WA4!

Boco Woods

I choose to save Boco. With his higher move, he runs towards me. A lot of people get Confused, but the Goblins don't do much damage... I think this is the first battle I don't even lose a PC during. A Mutilate misses, or I would have, but it wouldn't have been a big deal.

Zirekile Falls

Raquel has finally unlocked Samurai! Two Hands beatdowns can commence. I strip Gafgarion, and Delita has Lightning Stab. No real challenge to be found here, as you might expect. The Knight with Lancer ability is actually interesting because Lancer-Knights, unlike normal Lancers, can actually get Jumps off! Also Yulie is turned into a Frog by Water Ball. And promptly healed by Ovelia. Ultimately doesn't matter, it's a bit of a rout.

[Excal]

I'm fairly strongly against that change.  It's not really needed it feels like, and the Move MP is far more interesting as a niche than melee wizard which is really more of an acquired taste, even for an Oracle.  Not to mention, Equip Shield really doesn't need the nerfing.  So, yeah, I don't really see any upside to it.

[Grefter]

It definitely has serious polish issues as an emulator and appears to be kinda glitchy. The emulation itself is at least excellent, I'm just surprised at how bad the interface is given how long PSX emulation has existed for. It is leagues behind where most SNES emulators were years ago.

As much as it sucks really, SNES emulators are the exception, not the norm when it comes to console emulation.  ePSXe may be arcane, but it is very powerful which I appreciate a lot more than other emulators that are pretty much "This is what you have, suck it or get another emulator".  ePSXe is pretty much defined by the plugins you use and the best plugins out there are actually very good and have pretty solid menus (Pete's stuff is the win and Eternal SPU for your audio pretty much covers you.  BIOS stuff you have to do with every post 16 bit emulator pretty much and you only have to do it once).  But derailing aside.

I don't much care for the change either, it just doesn't feel terribly interesting to me personally.  Gives you a shield mage without having to cross tree class unlock?  Meh, doesn't doe much for me personally.  If you want to throw them a buff that could be cool (More class evade maybe?  Turn them into Ninja status mages? Eh feels redundant with Life Drain, wrong kind of defense), but I don't really like the idea of making them mini-Geodudes.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

You know, if the point lies in the evade buffing, an alternative that could keep the class more distinct would be giving Oracles innate Weapon Guard and buffing general stick evade a bit (I've seen the evade on those and it's pretty poor. +15%? It'd even give reason to toss in varying evade bonuses for more dynamics in the class weapons in general). It'd even make thematic sense for the weapon itself, given I'd personally kneejerk bo sticks to be decent defensively on skilled hands. I guess Gref has a point regarding the fact it's not really the right kind of defense for Oracles (they probably -want- concrete better), but a more unique defensive method that they'd be able to exploit more easily off their innate class characteristics in tandem with equips rather than only with equipment would probably be neater. It is inferior overall as a niche to having shields as well (shields have magical evade, anti-elemental options and all), but this gives them an innate, if subtle defensive edge over other mage types that doesn't ram into Geomancer niches straight.

Of course, don't know if this is mechanically viable or desirable, but felt like throwing it out. And given how Knights already lost their innate Weapon Guard (at least, that's what it sounds), this could be an interesting differentiation - and also gives them an edge over Geomancers if you -do- smack shields into them via ES (range-2 weapons with solid evade+shield, although how valuable this kind of setup is could be put into question).

[Excal]

From what I recall, innate counters don't work, which is why Knights lost it.

[Grefter]

Oh yeah got so focussed on the shield thing that I think if you were going to buff them in a sideways motion then stripping them of Rods would be an effective countermeasure to diversify casters a bit more.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Oh yeah got so focussed on the shield thing that I think if you were going to buff them in a sideways motion then stripping them of Rods would be an effective countermeasure to diversify casters a bit more.

I approve of that motion myself, yeah.

From what I recall, innate counters don't work, which is why Knights lost it.

Seriously? Fail, FFT programmers.

[Laggy]

Oracles are nowhere near overpowered enough that they just need to lose rods (a clear nerf). It would be a rod trade for shields (which is an earlygame nerf, lategame buff. People are quoting using innate Move MP Up early on but not caring about it later, when MP issues pretty much cease to exist.)

Anyway, I have no real qualms with keeping the innate MMU, and Equip Shield could take a tradeoff by becoming a cheaper JP ability, which would honestly be more relevant to seeing it get used than one mage carrier getting them naturally.

Being closer to Geo doesn't bother me all that much. It could use the competition, and still has 4 move, more HP, etc. if you're worried that the change would just make Oracle a crappy Geo (which seemed to the case), then keep the innate MMU and go with making Oracle more distinguishable from the other mage carriers, which tend to have more popular base primaries as a draw.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Being closer to Geodudes </Grefter> is something I honestly don't mind myself either. On the other hand, finding a more unique solution for this would be ideal - and while feedback on innate Weapon Guard is pointless... hmmmmm. What about giving Oracles Weapon Guard as a counter ability and adapt stick design changes for evade the same way? It's less subtle and interesting innately, but it becomes a defensive physical option for (a) SCCs, and (b) characters who don't end up going down the physical tree after all. I'm not sure how much Knights miss Weapon Guard on their counter list, though, and this may be worth thinking out.

Also, feel free to tell me this idea is horrible and should be gutted in the street by a hobo.

[Laggy]

Shields are way more interesting to me than Weapon Guard is what that boils down to. I mean, you can call it crowding on Geo all you want, but Geo's got other niches that make it very appealing as a mage carrier or DO carrier that Oracle, even with shields, would not possess. (With shields, you have elemental weirdness, Aegis option, covers some marginal M.Evade, facing accounts, etc. etc.)

Weapon Guard is less exciting. And best with rods anyway, which they would lose here, barring some W.Evade tweaking. Yeah, you could make sticks have awesome W.Evade, but then you're giving up a reaction ability for that. It's why no one is saying "just put Equip Shield on Oracles!"; the loss of that slot matters a lot for diversity choices.

Though, granted, mage RSM is unexciting in general though. They've got Short Charge and MAU (both catering purely to themselves), Move MP Up, and that's like... it, for options that stand out (Teleport is there, but not exactly easily accessible). Whereas most mages would love to dip into physical classes and get some RSM from there, the reverse doesn't apply nearly as much.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I -know- Weapon Guard is less exciting, I even addressed this earlier. The idea is mostly for a shuffle in dynamics that could give a bit more reason for physical classes to delve into mage classes for RSM reasons (and give mage classes something defensively interesting without having to jump into the wrong end of the tree). Weapon Guard would be simply an alternative to the whole "but they're now like Geomancers baw baw" thing while keeping a bigger distinction overall (and, as said before, it could actually become important for SCCs, which I highly suspect to be Alex's main point of contemption for buffing the class anyway, but this gets into a discussion that shouldn't matter here). Now, the point that, even with shields, Oracles are less appealing than Geos as a class period might be a problematic point.

Although, of course, the most interesting option to me would be the impossible. Fail, FFT.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Mustadio Fort City

Jude goes Archer for wallclimbing and to get Speed Save, which feels suitably Jude-like. Yulie is still a Geomancer. Arnaud is stil an Oracle/Time Mage, Raquel is still a Samurai.

This battle proves a bit trickier than I expected. Saving Mustadio isn't the problem with uber White Magic and Jude's items, though Mustadio provides boneheaded AI throughout the battle. However, the four mages can be kinda nasty. Raquel climbs over the wall and mercilessly counters things, OHKOing an Oracle and badly injuring a Knight, but the lead Knight is an annoying Chemist bastard who keeps the enemy healthy. Raquel dies and the rest of the party gets into trouble from the spells being slung, especially since Arnaud misses a couple key Silence Songs, and one he lands gets cured by an Echo Herb. Still, I'm able to tread water with a bunch of reviving, and eventually pull through.

Bariaus Hill

Jude arms himself with Speed Save and heads to Chemist for Throw Item, now that he finally has a gun! Yulie returns to being a White Mage, having learned almost the entire Elemental skillset for her secondary. Raquel goes Knight with Two Hands to pick up Move+1 for Yulie. Mustadio goes Archer with a Crossbow.

Protect 2 is awesome. An opening casting of this really hamstrings the enemies. Raquel as usual makes things die, and Jude is far more effective now that he has increased range, perfect accuracy, and Speed Save to be truly Jude-like. Arnaud ties up annoying enemies with Don't Move, Paralyse, and Slow, Yulie keeps me alive, the usual. Not much difficulty here, Lancers are non-threatening EXCEPT THAT THEY BREAK MY WIZARD ROBE THOSE BASTARDS. Mustadio catches Summoners charging and does a lot of damage, which is nice.

[Laggy]

So swap Weapon Guard to Oracle for a mage-friendly reaction (kind of like replacing DU) and make sticks good weapon evade (like say 35%)?

Eh. I could see that, especially since sticks make a lot of sense for it. Would also let Equip Shield breathe more easily too as it longer competes with Weapon Guard. Thematically... well, it really emphasizes that "Oracles are quarterstaff masters so they know how to parry with them" as emphasis.

Yeah, I don't think I would object to that. Although it would make all the other filler mage reactions cry (almost no one will bother with the likes of Regenerator, Critical Quick, Absorb Used MP, or Counter Magic with Weapon Guard accessible on their side of the tree now, and they never bothered with MP Switch to begin with.)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Sticks (quarterstaves) make a lot more sense as good parrying weapons than rods or more traditional shepherd's/wizard's staves anyway.

If you're worried about Weapon Guard being too potent on the mage side of the tree, nerf rod/staff W-Evade.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

That would be an interesting thought, yeah. It'd also emphasize Oracle's niche in that sense as well. It's a lot more effort than sticking shields on Oracles, but feels like it's a more thematically appropriate and overall interesting choice looking at overall class balance.

[Laggy]

Yeah I guess that could work. Rod evade goes from 20% to 10%, staves stay at 15, sticks go to 35.

Regenerator and Critical Quick can probably stand to go down a bit in JP cost too (150 instead of 200).

Side note: how do people feel about the other mage classes as carriers in general? I know Wizard isn't going to go away anytime soon, but the others (Priest, Time Mage, Summoner) are a bit more questionable.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Priest has the speed option, and PA, and White Magic is pretty cool in LFT, so I don't worry about them too much.

TM vs. Summoner feel too similar, they're both "the one with MP". Their skillsets are vastly different so it's not too big a deal. TM is faster (usually good, not always), Summoner is slightly better otherwise (rods + MP) but these are both minor differences.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Hm. Priests already have one of the best base skillsets, and they've also got a more interesting stat spread (speed!) so they're likely to see use as carriers even if by sheer proxy of you wanting a Priest. You don't have to concern yourself regarding that. Summoner is a class that you're unlikely to use as a carrier -ever- anyway, it rides entirely on its skillset being ridiculously good (and this still translates period). Time Mage is the one that feels more questionable, since I never cared for the class as a carrier, and while its skillset is pretty good (I have it as a secondary on a few mages), it doesn't have the urgent awesome that Priests and Summoners provide off their base skillsets - on the other hand, I've found uses for Innate Float on TMs (weird, I know). I wonder if giving TMs one more move wouldn't make them neater as a mobility-based mage class in its own deranged sense - and I think that TMs being able to cover more distance than other mages makes sense thematically.

[Magetastic]

and I think that TMs being able to cover more distance than other mages makes sense thematically.

This. Very much this. (Also, gives them a niche that other mages don't have. Heck, even quite a few physical classes don't have it) I would be all for Time mages having innate haste or large move or something. (Maybe not innate haste. Not sure how that would work mechanically)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yeah, I tend to agree, and I'm surprised there's not a 4 move mage class already now that I think about it. You can argue this crowds Geomancer a bit, but nah, Geo still has its PA, its HP, its swords and shields, so I'm not too worried.

[Tonfa]

The thing that irks me about summoners is that there's literally no reason to go there except to acquire the Summon set. They are not a carrier. That RSM set is the most unappealing in the game for spending time in the class in. (Well you could argue Squire but...at least those are cheap and Equip Axe sees more use than any Summoner RSM)

EDIT: Hell, even dedicated Summoner doesn't want anything except MAYBE pick up Half of MP.

[Luther Lansfeld]

I feel like there needs to be a balance between carrier and good skillset, and Summon skillset is super-good, so them as a class/stats being pretty mediocre is okay with me.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

RIGHT. Loggery shenanigans. Man, I badly slacked off on logging lately.

Finath River - A Pig, His Chocobos And A Desperate Struggle For Survival

Okay, so I realize there's a goddamn pig in this field (and I see no Sage either). Jesus christ I'm fucked. Setup is CALCULATOR RAMZA/CALCULATOR ANTON/Agrias/Summoner Eva (I needed the last few summons)/I think I used RAFA here. Regardless, the fight mostly went "Agrias OHKOs everything while the Piggy TRIPLETURNS THINGS AND SLEEPS HALF MY PARTAY". Then Agrias gets a turn after the piggy slept Ramza and the fight is basically won. Ramza finished the deal with a No-Charge Death and much happiness was had.

Zeltennia Castle - Zalmo Finds Your Lack Of Faith Arousing Deadly

ONE RESET TO ZALMO LUSNADA AW YEAH I should -not- have brought two skill-less skill-less Calcs for this battle. It was over the minute Eva got confused, although it took forever for everything to die because the support failed so hard against Delita for a while. So, I said "the fuck" with it and had my Calc hit the pubs for propositions because raising JP on a class that slow without Thief Hats is fucking painful. A few cities and absolutely no levels later, I come in again
with an Oracalculator and now everything's completely fucked anyway. How the fight was ultimately won, however? I tossed an early Doubt Faith on Zalmo so he wouldn't start reviving losers. By the time Zalmo's within reach, half the battlefield is chest'd or crystallized, and Zalmo is nearly out of MP - and he's still bereft of Faith to boot, since Delita was beating on him as if Zalmo was an abused housewife. Delita finishes his MP off and since I managed to flank Zalmo into a wall, he can't even Move-MP Up and starts getting flailed to death. Didn't even have time to Foxbird him (I sorta wish Foxbird was in Calc skillset, but that'd be so broked. Hell, Confusion Song alone is pure evil). Oh well. I even had Guts on Ramza so he could drop Zalmo off a cliff too in case all went wrong!

Bed Desert - Where Balk Fenzol Exercises His Brilliant Rhetoric And Gets Burned For It. Literally

Unlike Random, I found this fight -hilariously- trivial. Balk opens by shooting Ramza in the face, and I discover magic guns trigger Counter Magic - much to my amusement, as Ramza fucking OHKOs the Time Mage right next to Balk in addition to the damage dealt to the crazy engineer. After that, the fight was a pile of mopping-overs. Nena managed to Invite Tonfa on the very first try, which made the battle even simpler. Agrias ate the Geomancers for breakfast while Anton the Miracle Oracalculator confused things off his comfortable couch. Math Skill is so fucking broke even with -this- amount of skillset limitations.

Bethla Garrison - Soppy Gets No Love (AKA South Wall)

This fight was viciously tense. Ten billion Samurais and Thieves mean you can and will get in trouble even -if- you're careful, and I handed revival to Timothy (now back to Knight) here for a reason. This was also the reason I didn't wipe here: somehow, Punch Art Revive SUCCEEDED FOUR TIMES IN A ROW, and the Thieves loved rushing into Hamedo Timothy because they badly wanted to die off his Two Sword thwacks. Petrifying the Ninja very early proved downright crucial as well (off a 92% chance!). Confusion Song Math was sadly useless here, though, and the fucking Samurais had Bizen Boat, which made things -ugly- - not to mention Anton got Sleep'd once (urgh). On the other hand, once my Wizard got turns to kill things with, it became manageable. Then, I just took control of the fight and went back to sweeping through the spoils. One crucial thing, though, was getting one of the Thieves to critical with Hamedo, stopping them from trying to kill my mages.

Bethla Garrison Sluice - Man, Shale's Pretty Badass

Which didn't stop the fight from being pretty simple. The Knights were sorta annoying with their horrible Faith, but Timothy was just sorta unkillable and liked OHKOing the mages on his way up. It's easy to make Knights fun when they have 6 Move. Shale -did- get 2HKOed instead, but this just delayed the inevitable. Afterwards, I simply mopped stuff up and waited for the Knights to go to heaven so I could open the Sluice gates. Never really did this differently for some reason. >_>

Germinas Peak - OK, wearing pants? Ahahahahahaha, good one, Laggy

This one was such a slaughter I don't even have an idea of what happened. All I know is a blur where Timothy holding an Excalibur in one hand and a Rune Blade in another doled out divine punishment to all.

Poeskas Lake - They Never Have Sunny Days On Those Scenic Picnic Spots

Two resets here because I've been very neglectful of the Ghosts: they can whore you out really good, and the Oracle swarm+a summoner+an archer can be obnoxious to handle if you don't put those fuckers down first. Once I decide to not bumrush the battle and take my time to end the Ghosts first, however, things go smoothly - particularly because this approach forces the mages in the fort to come to you, which makes you far more able to pick them apart. After that, Priest does her evil and smites Oracles with Cure 4s in abundance while everybody else picks random losers apart. Simple fight if you approach it right.

[Ranmilia]

Mm.  Weapon Guard crossing over to the mage side would be fine with me, as would Time Mage move up to 4.  

LFT mage classes currently feel very bad to be in, compared to physical classes.  Nearly every physical class has 4 move now.  None of the mage classes do.  Every physical class has worthwhile RSM to learn, while mages have next to nothing useful except Short Charge, Move MP Up and MAU - which only work on mages.  (Teleport is now impractical to learn on anyone.)  It's nearly taken for granted that your mage characters will dip in the physical job side to pick up Equip X, Ignore Height, Move +X, Defense Up, Weapon Guard, Counter Flood, etc, whereas physical characters currently have no reason whatsoever to cross over except maybe MP Switch.  All this in addition to the usual mage issues of frailty, MP concerns, and their skillsets needing babysitting with things like high faith, party zodiac, Short Charge and equip tweaks to stay competitive.  

So yes, I'm all for mages getting better carrier powers.