LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

11/12: Fixed a lot of Calc and reflect documentation nonsense on spells now that Tallychu actually enlightened me on what that arrow meant (shut up okay). Tweaked Hashy. Still telling myself that there can't be that much left to change.

What was broken with Calc? I mean, besides the skillset in and out of itself. >_> Also, what was making Hashy-poo AI fail?

[Yakumo]

There wasn't anything broken per se, he just didn't realize what some of the symbols in the documentation for spells meant so the documentation wasn't the way he actually wanted it. <_<

[metroid composite]

Hmm...one idea I'm going to toss out there...

Haste2/Slow2 are pretty universally used over their lower counterparts (once learned).  What if we put Haste/Slow back at their original 2CT, and H2/S2 at, say 4CT?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I dunno. H1/S1 still have uses (uses I actually took advantage of) over H2/S2 - cheaper costs, more sustainable, and while it's harder to position right for multiple people, it's still workable enough. I think H2/S2 being used over H1/S1 is good anyway, since the spells are supposed to be -better-. However, I wouldn't be opposed to a straight H1/S1 buff - reducing it to 3CT could be neat, and I actually think this is warranted, since 4 CT feels a bit steep for them.

EDIT: And the H2/S2 slight nerfing may not be entirely without merit either, as they stand I find particularly Haste 2 amazingly brutal. I'm not sure if CT 4 Slow 2 is that good, though - one of its selling points is being so fast you don't have to worry overly much about it backfiring on you due to enemy movement.

[superaielman]

Just wanted to day you've done a really good job with making Samurais an interesting option as a class. Two hands and Katanas not sucking suddenly make them decent fighters, and they have niches as mages as well now thanks to the faith katana. Very neat.

[Luther Lansfeld]

I disagree with Snow completely. Haste and Slow need to have some distinct advantage over H2/S2. Like CT, so I think that is perfect.

[Yakumo]

Why should Haste and Slow be better than their more expensive replacements at anything, exactly?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I disagree with Snow completely. Haste and Slow need to have some distinct advantage over H2/S2.

Having less than 1/3 their casting cost is a distinct advantage to me.

EDIT: Clarifying - it's a non-negligible advantage, at the very least in the first two chapters. 30 MP is a very steep cost for half the game, and the sustainability of Haste 1/Slow 1 over Haste 2/Slow 2 in that interim is important then. Sure, C3/4, this isn't a deal anymore, but you have a rather notable space where you'll want to keep some MP in reserves. Not to mention H1/S1 don't get in the way of resources for secondaries (or primaries, Time Magic is a good secondary to have) nearly as much. Haste 2+Slow 2 = you just blew off a casting of Leviathan. Haste 1+Slow 1 = you blew off a Bolt 2 and a POIZN, and getting it to hit a reasonable amount of people isn't rocket science. I still think a CT reduction can be a decent idea, but saying the MP difference in casting cost is trivial is not right - and the purpose of Haste 2 and Slow 2 was to be an emergential trump card of sorts: you're paying for the fast CT as well with the dent on the MP reserves. If nothing else, the MP costs on H2/S2 are what might stand to be upped even a bit further to emphasize this aspect rather than crapping out their CT.

[Talaysen]

Completely agree with Snow here.  The MP cost difference makes Haste/Slow more useful at various times.  Oftentimes you don't even hit an extra character with the 1 extra radius, so you can just fall back on the much cheaper spell.

[Dunefar]

11/12: Fixed a lot of Calc and reflect documentation nonsense on spells now that Tallychu actually enlightened me on what that arrow meant (shut up okay). Tweaked Hashy. Still telling myself that there can't be that much left to change.

It is an infinite amount of changes that provoke more changes that make you change more things. It is an...infinite loop, if you will.

Ko.

[Grefter]

ARGH KO FEEDBACK LOOP.

Agreeing with Snow.  The MP Cost being the defining advantage I thought was the whole point.  If you need to you could always punish the MP more on the stronger versions, but if you fiddle with it to much I think you will break it back in the other direction.  Sure people are using Haste and Slow 2 a lot at the end game, but that is where they should be and you have built situations where they are more useful.  It is just like you see more people killing a lot more stuff rather than assassinating with Holy.  Yeah people use it more in C3/4 because A) People CAN use it more and B) things have the health to actually warrant it as a standard tool more than I need to kill that specific thing (and of course end game weakness to Holy springs up way more than it does early game).

[Dark Holy Elf]

For what it's worth, I still find myself using Haste 1 because it is so much cheaper, and often you can hit almost as many people with it.

I use Slow 1 relatively less often because (a) its lower hit rate compared to Slow 2's is more important (my own PCs have high faith and generally good zodiac, same isn't true of enemies) and (b) the enemies aren't quite so nice about bunching up in same-height areas. I do still use it though.

I'm pretty opposed to swapping their CTs, and think if you really want to see Haste/Slow 1 used more after their counterparts are learned (I don't really care if they are, the lower JP cost of Haste/Slow 1 is good enough for me) then you should up the MP costs of the 2's further.

[Dapifer]

For what it's worth, I still find myself using Haste 1 because it is so much cheaper, and often you can hit almost as many people with it.

I use Slow 1 relatively less often because (a) its lower hit rate compared to Slow 2's is more important (my own PCs have high faith and generally good zodiac, same isn't true of enemies) and (b) the enemies aren't quite so nice about bunching up in same-height areas. I do still use it though.

I'm pretty opposed to swapping their CTs, and think if you really want to see Haste/Slow 1 used more after their counterparts are learned (I don't really care if they are, the lower JP cost of Haste/Slow 1 is good enough for me) then you should up the MP costs of the 2's further.

*nods*

[Luther Lansfeld]

I think all you people are nuts. Five people in a line at the beginning of the battle, Haste. Nothing compares.

[Archmage]

Haste/Slow2 are better than Haste/Slow. Just like Bolt2 is better than Bolt.

St. Ajora is in his heaven, and all's right with the world.

[Grefter]

I think all you people are nuts. Five people in a line at the beginning of the battle, Haste. Nothing compares.

I think you are forgetting to take into account that I was on the inside looking out for you
You were on the outside looking in
We were a witchy coven of white women
We knew a lot about a regional sin
We were protected by the police crime wave
Gangster computer with a bloodied touch
There were so many of us
Or not enough
Or maybe much too much
TOO MUCH! TOO MUCH!

I met you on a Monday
It was Friday night
You were doin' alright cause it was Saturday night
and we were night bitches, white witches
We lived under the city
We were doin' alright
We ran around in circles casting spells all night
Terrorizing kids and causing a fight
I put a spell on you
You put a spell on me
Though we just couldn't spell love without consulting a white
She said
Some girls wished to think were teenage bitches
Other girls wanna be lesbian witches
But I'm wishy washy
Or wishy wishy
I just wish someone would watch me when I get too witchy now
We were married by the priestess all night
Lesbian lovers till the day we die
We were hot girls
But we had a query
If which marries witch which witch am I
But every fairy tale has to end some time honey
The chief of police, he wanted too much money
Pulled up his britches
Like up a bunch of bitches
Threw away the key cause he thought it was funny
So that's the story of how we found each other
Living as witches in a and L.A. cave
We rock stars
Baby, We were white women
We were trouble, trouble, trouble
We just couldn't behave
Now were just dancin' for the boys in the coast guard
Nobody knows we were once witches in love
They treat us so bad
Makes us so sad
We just cry, cry like when doves cry like a dove
But every now and then we get a reminder of
The days when we could wrap ourselves in witchy, witchy love
I go up on you
You go down on me
We go round, round, round
And we strap on the dirty glove
Go to the store and now get us something good to eat baby
Microwave cheese sashimi
Cause it takes blood sugar
and lots of energy to shuffle your feet
And go dancing with me tonight

Tonight!

Tonight!

Tonight!

[metroid composite]

Haste/Slow2 are better than Haste/Slow. Just like Bolt2 is better than Bolt.

Well...actually no, that's the point.

Bolt 2 is...

Better damage
Better vertical
Worse CT
Worse MP

Haste 2 is...

Better accuracy
Better horizontal
Better vertical
Better CT
Better at going through reflect
Better at team teaching thanks to being Blue Mage enabled
Worse MP

So......JP cost aside, Bolt2 has a 2-2 advantage to disadvantage ratio relative to Bolt1.  By comparison, Haste2 has a 6-1 advantage to disadvantage ratio relative to Haste1.  It is, in fact, the Bolt2 vs Bolt1 comparison which got me thinking about switching the CTs on Haste/Haste2.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Buffs and attack spells don't function the same for what you want out of them, and, honestly, I find that the different dynamics found in Haste/Slow levels compared to attack spells are more refreshing and interesting (obviously, they shouldn't be replicated -elsewhere-). They're not symmetrical with the dynamics between different BM level spells? That's -fine-, they aren't meant to be, as Laggy pinpointed a long time ago. And, as said before, Haste 2 and Slow 2 are almost four times as expensive as Haste 1 and Slow 1: they -better- be that damned good. I dunno, maybe you could up the vertical on the L1s (this, in particular, would help Slow 1 user-friendliness - since now the advantage of Slow 2 besides accuracy would just be the horizontal, which is still damned important), or lower their CT to 3 or lower the L1 costs a bit further (probably to 5x comparatively for a different symmetry - say, 6 MP vs. 30 MP. It even fits the 6 advantage-1 disadvantage, you're paying for exactly how much better the spell is). I know the Bolt 1/2 comparison is tempting there, but there's a resource cost difference of a magnitude. It's less of a L1 to L2 comparison than a L1 to L4 comparison for the resource intensiveness managed there.

Personally, I think making H2/S2 40 MP compared to H1/C1's 8 would be ideal. I'd -also- sorta like 3 CT H1/S1 in addition to that, but think it's unnecessary.

[Grefter]

Bolt 1 vs Bolt 2 is of course a misleading representation, the jump in Bolt spells is far more granular than it is for Haste/Slow obviously.  You would be more comparing Bolt to Bolt 3 or something along those lines (Bolt to Bolt 4 seems... a bit overly large but Bolt 4 does have more in line with the advantages of Haste 2)

[Luther Lansfeld]

They are the same comparison but with greater degrees of intensity. >_>

I think Haste 2 and Slow are overpowered, I think if nothing else they should be less accessible. I basically got them in C1 and didn't use anything but them the entire game. I think their JP costs should be higher, if not their CT (and I think their CT should be the same as Haste is now and Haste should be the same as they are now). Their MP seems pretty good as is.

[Grefter]

That is the point I mean though >_>  They are much stronger than Haste/Slow and that is the way they are meant to function.  Stronger, but at a cost.  I am kind of suprised that you picked them up and could use them all game though at that MP cost.  It seems restrictive to me outside of using Half MP for most of the way through to mid chapter 2 or you are restricting yourself with other options in the caster space there.  Chapter 1 is pretty suprising to be honest.

Edit - I guess I should have said like comparing Bolt 1 to Bolt 4 after all, but well... Bolt 4 sucks so hard and Haste/Slow 2 here quite clearly do not.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I dunno, if we're going for experience comparisons, I was using Haste 1 over Haste 2 for a long time after I got it (and I got it later than you, even. I was using Haste 1 even in C4 - even the CT disadvantage gives it some uses over Haste 2 - more time to position around it when you don't want to waste four times the MP - or when you don't want to hit enemies with Haste, which was often a possibility with Haste 2). I dunno. Maybe a bit of a JP upping is warranted, but Time Mage is already a very JP-intensive class with a large amount of skillset options one could want from it, even besides secondaries, and I'm not sure if it's necessary to make it -even moreso-.

[Luther Lansfeld]

I had a person whose entire magey job on the team was to cast Haste and Slow. Physical class with a robe. It works pretty well since Time Magic (beyond Meteor) is minimally MA-dependent. I bought Haste 1 and it was a complete waste of my money, especially in later chapters.

Late C3 and C4 went like this:

Step 1: Sprint Shoes

Step 2: Instacast Haste 2 on the entire party

Step 3:

I mean, if you want to make it cheap and fast and huge and less height dependent I will continue using it forever and ever, of course. I just think it's too good. >_>

[metroid composite]

Edit - I guess I should have said like comparing Bolt 1 to Bolt 4 after all, but well... Bolt 4 sucks so hard and Haste/Slow 2 here quite clearly do not.

LFT Bolt 4 is...hmm...well it was fine back when it had more area than all other black magic.  I'm sitting here trying to figure out why Laggy shrunk the area AND reduced the damage.  Reducing the area to match other black magic could make sense.  Similarly, keeping the area but reducing the damage so that it's less MP efficient for more area could make sense.  But both is WTF.


Side note: last time I played, Haste 2 was 24 MP and 2 CT.  Looking at the changelog, it looks like Laggy changed it to 30 MP.  According to the changelog he also changed it to 3 CT, though I'm not seeing the patch I have from October.

Personally, I think making H2/S2 40 MP compared to H1/C1's 8 would be ideal.

See, I think that would be terrible design.


Bolt 1 vs Bolt 3, say (closest MP comparison right now) there's multiple reasons why you might use Bolt 1, be it MP or CT.  Making Haste 2 completely awesome in every area except MP is just...if you have the MP, you cast it, and if you don't have the MP, you don't cast it.  Your Summoner with Half of MP will basically always use Haste 2.  Your Monk with Time Magic secondary will always use Haste 1.

Fundamentally I feel like when more than one variable goes into design, you end up with more interesting gameplay decisions.  This is how Fire Emblem works, with the whole doubling with a weaker weapon vs not doubling with a stronger weapon; with the whole accuracy vs power, etc.

I'd -also- sorta like 3 CT H1/S1 in addition to that.

The one thing I absolutely don't want is for them to be equal CT.  Then you would never make a decision on the basis of CT, which would be poor design.

[Laggy]

Black L4s kind of dropped from 10 to 6 CT and 48 MP to 36 MP. I'm honestly not sure how you missed that or how that doesn't make up for a whopping 2 mult drop (which was to keep the multiplier increase linear more than anything else). The area decrease is the real nerf that's supposed to keep it in line, to make BM more "fast, low area damage" vs Summon's "slow, wide area damage".

I tweaked the Level 2 WM/TM buffs to 3 CT a while back, and I'm probably going to give them a bit of a JP hike to emphasize the earlier ones, but on paper I'm not bothered by them. I consider their viability an inherent benefit of using the skillset period, and while they may be superior to their lower level versions in most situations, it's definitely not all - MP costs, JP costs and CT difference still assures that.