Register

Author Topic: LFT: An FFT mod (The final release is a lie. Download here!)  (Read 456650 times)

Tonfa

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 866
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1125 on: November 30, 2009, 04:21:57 PM »
As long as it doesn't stop people who don't like heavy grinding from having fun, I see nothing wrong with leaving an avenue to heavy grinding for those that do enjoy it.

On the playthrough that went through the aftergame, doing preparatory poaching -with- the help of savestates I spent nearly half an hour on acquiring...a Dragon Rod.

I hacked in a bunch of poaches after that, not interested in wasting 10 hours of my life on a series of foregone conclusion battles that would only have inflated my levels and JP.

I have absolutely no sympathy for arguing grinding is a positive.
<Niu> If I ever see that Langfadood, i'll strangle him on sight
<Gourry> What, for making the game three times better?
<Gourry> And playable, at that?
<Niu> that lose the whole point of of L2!!!

Laggy

  • ReDux'd
  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1147
  • Generations of suffering & all I got was a stick
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1126 on: November 30, 2009, 04:23:29 PM »
And frankly, rare poaches have appeal.  There are people who genuinely enjoy grinding.  Let them get the slightly better Dragon Lance rather than the already good Holy Lance if they want to put in that much extra effort.

As long as it doesn't stop people who don't like heavy grinding from having fun, I see nothing wrong with leaving an avenue to heavy grinding for those that do enjoy it.

This wouldn't have come up if there haven't been numerous complaints about just how asinine the grind for rare poaches are (which basically is forcing people to savestate/load to get the item they want.)

Incidentally, the most broken poaches before (perfumes) were common poaches rather than rare ones. This is rather contradictory to the idea that good but not nearly as broken items (rare weapons, etc.) were a pain in the ass to acquire multiple copies of, while the best accessories in the game... were not. And yet you've made the argument in the past before that if people want go out of their way to break the game, it should be easily accessible in the sense that, if you want to get Chantages at ALL for instance, you'd want multiple instances of it. That is flying in the face of your sentiment that "rare poaches have appeal".
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

superaielman

  • "Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar/The fear of death holds not my heart!"
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 9632
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1127 on: November 30, 2009, 04:30:56 PM »
Completely in favor of this. Anything that lessens the need to have to kill thousands of monsters for one item is fine by me. You still have to find the monster and make the effort to poach them. I love the entire poaching process, but removing the headaches of getting rares is fine with me.

Perfumes... well, Chantage is god so moving that to a C4 rare monster is probably a good idea. The blood sword still sucks though. By the time you get access to fur shops it's out of date.

Making snow muffler unpoachable? Toss one in the DD then at least.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
-------------------
<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Laggy

  • ReDux'd
  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1147
  • Generations of suffering & all I got was a stick
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1128 on: November 30, 2009, 04:33:27 PM »
Infinitely stealable from super monk fight now (along with Maxi and Grand Helm).
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

Ranmilia

  • Poetry Lover
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1687
  • Not a squid!!
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1129 on: November 30, 2009, 04:43:15 PM »
In favor of this, yeah.  Poaches are enough of a pain to set up that they don't need further pain from randomness. 

VySaika

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2836
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1130 on: November 30, 2009, 05:00:24 PM »
I'll lean in favor of this, sure.
<%Laggy> we're open minded individuals here
<+RandomKesaranPasaran> are we
<%Laggy> no not really.

<Tide|NukicommentatoroptionforF> Hatbot is a pacifist

Nephrite

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • President of the Great United States of America
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1131 on: November 30, 2009, 05:21:42 PM »
I agree with the Vice President's plan for Healthcare Poaching Reform.

Jo'ou Ranbu

  • Social Justice Steampunk Literature Character
  • New Age Retro Fucking Hipster
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 12988
  • Ah'm tuff fer mah size!
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1132 on: November 30, 2009, 07:53:24 PM »
The overhauled list looks so damned good. And, honestly, the fact that you have a ton of randomness already dropping on your head for poaching makes that overhaul -more- appealing. I'm not sure if this will look good for the lategame balance, but that will have to be worked on as we discuss this, and this is a sensible concern (since now poaches -will- be more of a factor against stuffs).
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Laggy

  • ReDux'd
  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1147
  • Generations of suffering & all I got was a stick
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1133 on: November 30, 2009, 08:05:11 PM »
I am not really concerned about aftergame balance impact on poaches. They were already semi-assumed to begin with; compare it to Colliery steals, which are comparable in worth, and which are almost standard for most people going through it pre-DD.
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

Jo'ou Ranbu

  • Social Justice Steampunk Literature Character
  • New Age Retro Fucking Hipster
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 12988
  • Ah'm tuff fer mah size!
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1134 on: November 30, 2009, 08:09:01 PM »
Yeah, I'm thinking more on -endgame-.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Laggy

  • ReDux'd
  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1147
  • Generations of suffering & all I got was a stick
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1135 on: November 30, 2009, 08:16:49 PM »
Eh, poaching is just one of many optional ways that you can break the endgame with.
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

Jo'ou Ranbu

  • Social Justice Steampunk Literature Character
  • New Age Retro Fucking Hipster
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 12988
  • Ah'm tuff fer mah size!
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1136 on: November 30, 2009, 08:20:25 PM »
I guess. The biggest consequence is mostly that people will have to exercise more restraint to see the effort you went through in the endgame string.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Laggy

  • ReDux'd
  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1147
  • Generations of suffering & all I got was a stick
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1137 on: November 30, 2009, 08:42:32 PM »
That's a matter of choice to begin with, and honestly if I were to advise anything it'd be to save right before endgame and do it, then do the aftergame later~ (Which is what I thought people did ANYWAY, but apparently they like their shinies.)
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1138 on: November 30, 2009, 08:42:51 PM »
As someone who has still never used Secret Hunt in FFT, this would make me far more likely to do so.

Not quite true for me, but I second the sentiment.

My most recent playthrough in LFT was the second time I had used poaching ever. I hate poaching. What I hate most about it, though, is the annoying process of recruiting the monster and then fighting a pointless battle in which I bench one of my real PCs in favour of a monster so I can poach said monster. And if the 25% chance of getting the rare item (which I'm not looking for) comes up, teeth-gnashing occurs. Never mind the idea of hunting the rares themselves which to me at least is just right out. Of course I hate grinding, poaching is a form of grinding and rare poaching moreso, so of course I am a biased voice on the matter. The main things I like about poaching is it's a way to infinitely restock Elixirs and Masamunes; everything else I enjoy getting through other methods and I am happy that LFT makes these other methods available to me.

But yeah, long story short: eliminating common/rare poaches = I can just kill the monster in a battle instead of recruiting it = much less annoying. So I am in favour of this strongly, bias or not.

On the Elixir subject, I do think one or two more monsters should have them as poaches. Maybe Ghoul or someone like that.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Talaysen

  • Ara ara~
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2595
  • Ufufu~
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1139 on: November 30, 2009, 09:45:03 PM »
As long as anything you removed from the poach list can be found in unlimited supply before aftergame I'm fine with it.  Even stuff like super monk battle (or any of the other endgame doable random battles) is fair game.  Just... really do not like limited items in any game and FFT had enough of them.

Laggy

  • ReDux'd
  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1147
  • Generations of suffering & all I got was a stick
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1140 on: November 30, 2009, 09:46:01 PM »
No item in the game falls under this category anymore except for Robe of Lords.
<Eph> When Laggy was there to fuel my desire to open crates, my life was happy.  Now I'm stuck playing a shitty moba and playing Anime RPGs.

Talaysen

  • Ara ara~
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2595
  • Ufufu~
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1141 on: November 30, 2009, 10:45:37 PM »
Excellent.

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4381
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1142 on: November 30, 2009, 10:57:37 PM »
As long as it doesn't stop people who don't like heavy grinding from having fun, I see nothing wrong with leaving an avenue to heavy grinding for those that do enjoy it.

On the playthrough that went through the aftergame, doing preparatory poaching -with- the help of savestates I spent nearly half an hour on acquiring...a Dragon Rod.

Well...with all due respect...why?  Dragon Rod is the same MA boost as Wizard Rod.  It's only noteworthy if you plan to physically attack with your Wizard, and even then the physical attack will suck regardless unless autocast Bahamut kicks in.  Yes, it's technically better than the Wizard Rod, but if you don't like grinding I don't really see why you'd bother with it.

Incidentally, the most broken poaches before (perfumes) were common poaches rather than rare ones. This is rather contradictory to the idea that good but not nearly as broken items (rare weapons, etc.) were a pain in the ass to acquire multiple copies of, while the best accessories in the game... were not.

That's...not contradictory at all.  In fact it's pretty much exactly what I'm arguing for.

Major upgrades from poaching: easy to get.  You're not forced to grind for these.
Getting absolutely everything in the game, raising your final power-level by 5%-10%: hard to get.

The idea is as follows: we don't want to limit content based on how much you grind--stuff like Setiemson and Chantage allow you to play the game in completely different ways than you could before--I have fond memories of using Setiemson and Equip Changing to Chantage when I was close to death.  Therefore we let all players get these items.  On the other hand, something like Dragon Rod...doesn't change the experience.  Yeah, it's a slight upgrade, but not something you need to have for certain strategies.  Similarly, something like FS-Bag we don't want to be easily available because of the glitchy way in which it works.

My most recent playthrough in LFT was the second time I had used poaching ever. I hate poaching. What I hate most about it, though, is the annoying process of recruiting the monster and then fighting a pointless battle in which I bench one of my real PCs in favour of a monster so I can poach said monster. And if the 25% chance of getting the rare item (which I'm not looking for) comes up, teeth-gnashing occurs

But yeah, long story short: eliminating common/rare poaches = I can just kill the monster in a battle instead of recruiting it = much less annoying. So I am in favour of this strongly, bias or not.

This, however, is a very good argument that I'll agree with.

I will note, however, that a hybrid solution may be reasonable here.  For instance, monsters that let you poach, say, Ice Brand early, you could very easily instead do, say, "common poach = Elixir, rare poach = Ice Brand" there is another non-painful way to get Ice Brands, so it's less important to simplify poaching in these cases.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 10:59:35 PM by metroid composite »

superaielman

  • "Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar/The fear of death holds not my heart!"
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 9632
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1143 on: November 30, 2009, 11:00:56 PM »
Quote
Well...with all due respect...why?  Dragon Rod is the same MA boost as Wizard Rod.  It's only noteworthy if you plan to physically attack with your Wizard, and even then the physical attack will suck regardless unless autocast Bahamut kicks in.  Yes, it's technically better than the Wizard Rod, but if you don't like grinding I don't really see why you'd bother with it.


Because you can and it's cool to do so. Removing rare poaches is fine. Laggy's streamlining the process. There's very good reason to now just poach every random you see from the start of C1 onward, and that is pretty badass.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
-------------------
<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Just Another Day

  • Just Another Dollar
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 191
    • View Profile
    • (BL)
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1144 on: November 30, 2009, 11:06:34 PM »
I will note, however, that a hybrid solution may be reasonable here.  For instance, monsters that let you poach, say, Ice Brand early, you could very easily instead do, say, "common poach = Elixir, rare poach = Ice Brand" there is another non-painful way to get Ice Brands, so it's less important to simplify poaching in these cases.

That would make sense to me; differentiating between, I dunno what you wanna call 'em, early-game grade-skipper monsters and late-game supply-giver monsters; it would mean that there would still be reason (Elixirs) to poach Ch. 1 monsters late-game, but would still give the compulsive game-breakers (e.g. me) something to do early game if we feel like grinding, and removing compulsory grinding for good loots from the late game.

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4381
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1145 on: November 30, 2009, 11:38:49 PM »
There's very good reason to now just poach every random you see from the start of C1 onward, and that is pretty badass.

Is that the goal?  If so, we're not quite there.  Ether?  Germinas Boots?  X-Potion?  Mythril Gun?  Holy Water?  Hi-Ether?  A fair few of these are guaranteed to be storebought by the time the fur shop even opens (or at least within the chapter like Papyrus Plate, Sprint Shoes, Assassin Dagger, Yagu Darkness).  Not to mention a fair few items that...just aren't that great by the time Chapter 3 rolls around (Blood Sword, Healing Staff, Barrette, Chachusha).

If the goal is to make every monster interesting to poach, then we should attack that problem directly.  Making every monster interesting to poach IS something that we COULD probably pull off regardless of which poach system we use.

superaielman

  • "Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar/The fear of death holds not my heart!"
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 9632
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1146 on: November 30, 2009, 11:51:16 PM »
Fur shop's still half off, so even those have good reason to be poached.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
-------------------
<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

SageAcrin

  • WATCH OUT! THAT'S HYDRO PUMP!
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 944
  • ...Is it smiling...?
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1147 on: December 01, 2009, 02:02:18 AM »
Quote
Is that the goal?  If so, we're not quite there.  Ether?  Germinas Boots?  X-Potion?  Mythril Gun?  Holy Water?  Hi-Ether?  A fair few of these are guaranteed to be storebought by the time the fur shop even opens (or at least within the chapter like Papyrus Plate, Sprint Shoes, Assassin Dagger, Yagu Darkness).  Not to mention a fair few items that...just aren't that great by the time Chapter 3 rolls around (Blood Sword, Healing Staff, Barrette, Chachusha).

Conceptually, I do have to agree with this. Isn't there a bunch of random mid-range weapons that can be slapped into at least the generic cheap item range, ala Ice Brand? Like, I dunno Or expensive stuff, like Bags? Thief Hats are obvious, although those are very hard to place because, well, C3 Thief Hats actually break the game almost as much as Perfumes, soooo I wouldn't suggest those... but maybe something like Judo would be reasonable early? Bracers/Magic Gauntlets, which are 20k, on something you're likely to poach in passing?

That list is strikingly close to having every poach be useful, to the point where the few exceptions do indeed stand out.

Edit: Off the top of my head, for stuff that might fit...drop X-Potion from Goblin, move Assassin Dagger and Blood Sword down to the lower Goblins, give Gabbledegak, say, Slasher, since why not.  Give standard Skeletons Black Robes(Vaguely fitting equip that lasts forever in use, or nearly so, that fits the low end power of the monster.), give Ghouls Golden Hairpins?, give Flotiball Circlet? It's something that keeps the relative worth intact and is mostly in the same style as the other equips but isn't broken as sets, I think?

You could still retool the list to fit stuff like bags on places where they'd make sense, but then again Bags don't really make sense anywhere either, so. Ditto the equips I suggested. However, many Poaches never make sense and never will, so. (Perfume from multiheaded dragons?)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 02:12:25 AM by SageAcrin »
<RichardHawk> Waddle Dee looks broken.
<TranceHime> Waddle Dee does seem broken.

"Forget other people's feelings, this is fun and life is but a game and we nought but players in it.  CHECKMATE!  King me and that is Uno." - Grefter

Just Another Day

  • Just Another Dollar
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 191
    • View Profile
    • (BL)
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1148 on: December 01, 2009, 02:35:27 AM »
I have the strangest feeling this's come up before, but is there any way to give the fur shop to earlier chapters? I'd completely forgotten that it was Chapter 3 onwards, hence silly suggestions like X-Potions.

(although if, as come to think of it would probably be a good idea, High and X-Potion prices were to be raised substantially, there could be a cost-saving benefit regardless)

SageAcrin

  • WATCH OUT! THAT'S HYDRO PUMP!
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 944
  • ...Is it smiling...?
    • View Profile
Re: LFT: An FFT mod (complete and available for download!)
« Reply #1149 on: December 01, 2009, 02:59:14 AM »
I'm against Chemist getting even worse relative to Priest, personally. More costly items would do that.
<RichardHawk> Waddle Dee looks broken.
<TranceHime> Waddle Dee does seem broken.

"Forget other people's feelings, this is fun and life is but a game and we nought but players in it.  CHECKMATE!  King me and that is Uno." - Grefter