Author Topic: My-Hime Mafia  (Read 60002 times)

Ranmilia

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2008, 06:34:42 PM »
Tcha, my head hurts.

##Unvote: Excal since serious phase is starting.

Okay, serious read over gives me.... almost nothing.  Right.  We got Tom and Strago and Cid and Xanth etc and they all look like fairly normal day 1 discussion.
Hey, it's a Kilga ninja!  Hi there!

##Vote: Kilga, sure, why not, let's see what happens.

Bardiche

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2008, 06:54:37 PM »
I am terribly confused by the bandwagon on Kilgamaya, but recognize this from AnonySciFiMafia.

First things first, let's immediately make this clear.

Kazuya Kurauchi loves Higurashi Akane some. "Our love is indestructible!" quoth he, and they loved eachother longtime.

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF LOVER COMPLETE, NOW RESUMING SERIOUSBUSINESS.

Kiro gets ten points for metagame flushing and immediately becomes my favorite player. I hate metagame like I hate raging bitchqueens that want to leap onto you and eat you whole.

Xanth argument from Sopko is based on interpretation and I won't touch that.

Can't see justification for Kilgamayan train. What do you guys hope to accomplish here?

I don't have solid arguments right now. I claim Day 1 and Post 2. However, I must note I look at El Cid a little for running to another's defense. The last time I lynched someone for that they turned out to just be nice people like that, but I'd like to not let the odds influence me and pay attention to it.

Alex... why are you pressing harder on the Kilga train?

Bardiche

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2008, 06:58:54 PM »
Whoops, forgot something: ##UNVOTE: Affinity.

Ranmilia

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2008, 07:26:34 PM »
sure, why not, let's see what happens.

Iunno.  He might be scum.

Bardiche

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2008, 07:46:15 PM »
sure, why not, let's see what happens.

Iunno.  He might be scum.

... That's actually a damn fine argument.

I actually meant it in the "Why are you placing another vote on the (more-or-less random) Kilgamayan train when there's already a lot on it?" way.

Corwin

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2008, 07:46:51 PM »
Our illustrious teacher, I have an important question for you. Are you, per chance... drunk? Perhaps a little bit? Because 'he might be scum' applies just as well to you and your line of reasoning in this situation, I feel.

##Unvote: Kilgamayan
##Vote: Sir Alex


Forgive me, Natsuki! I am a weak creature and my convictions change, but not my love for you!

Sierra

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2008, 08:19:27 PM »
sure, why not, let's see what happens.

Iunno.  He might be scum.

... That's actually a damn fine argument.

I actually meant it in the "Why are you placing another vote on the (more-or-less random) Kilgamayan train when there's already a lot on it?" way.

I don't see -4 to hammer as "a lot."

Wagon on me: Uh, I dunno. Telling everyone that you're casting the third vote solely for the sake of having a third vote kinda defeats the purpose of making that vote at all, since it doesn't give me a whole lot to worth with in terms of a response. >_>

It's only meaningless if you assume that your reaction is the only one I'm interested in. Several other people have already commented on it one way or another. Which, as far as I'm concerned, is more interesting than a lot of people going "It's day one."

That said, it'd be nice to see you drop a vote on someone yourself. Given your claim that you don't see a serious case on Tom, your lingering jokevote on him is fairly meaningless.

Strago

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2008, 08:25:23 PM »
The current thing that jumps out at me the most is Strago's vote for Tom. He considered Xanth based on some earlier game here, but votes Tom for a one liner. He is reaching on both due to meta and I'm not understanding why he chose the Tom vote over the Xanth vote primarily because he analyzes the case on Xanth a lot more.

##Vote Strago

Eh? I sort of see what you mean, but also not at all. With Xanth, my adverse reaction was due to an actual meta-game concern: similarity to performance in a previous game. This, once I thought it over, was not nearly enough to warrant a vote on my part. That should address the part of your post which I've bolded. I don't particularly think my vote on Tom was based on any meta-game. It was, in fact, based largely on being uncomfortable with Tom's own meta-gaming. Was that not clear?

Heh, and now there's the proposal of a Kilga train upon which Alex hops cheerfully. I think this is first time I've seen a Day 1 proposition like this meet such nonchalant acquiescence from... anybody. And I find myself completely unable to make a call on whether it's scummier to agree with the "For its Own Sake Lynchtrain," as Alex has done, or to lash out at a... seemingly arbitrary member of it, as has Corwin. Who was... also on it. Yeah. Uh. When I write it out like that, Corwin definitely seems the worse at first glance.

Wagon on me: Uh, I dunno. Telling everyone that you're casting the third vote solely for the sake of having a third vote kinda defeats the purpose of making that vote at all, since it doesn't give me a whole lot to worth with in terms of a response. >_>

Ninja'd by El Cid, but yeah, the point of this sort of thing is always at least theoretically to manufacture a situation in which everyone is forced to show something of their hand by reacting. So on that level it does make sense.

Corwin

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2008, 08:45:26 PM »
It's true! When you frame the discussion, even incorrect things suddenly seem to fit and make sense!

Or, to recap, I placed a second vote on a person, it being a jokevote. Alex later in the day added the fourth vote and by that time I couldn't really see a reason to help train someone with what was originally said jokevote. Alex possibly did this to get discussion started! But it is not up to me to make excuses for his behavior, and the one he gave when questioned on that was pretty feeble, as far as I'm concerned. I hardly have much here, but when I apply Alex's justification of 'X might be scum, I dunno' I find that it suits a vote for him more than it does staying on what ended up being a train, but was certainly nothing of the sort at the time I placed it originally.

Hunter Sopko

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2008, 09:56:10 PM »
Adding my own two sense, I think it's more Alex doesn't care what he does anymore since people will read it negatively and call him scum.

Strago

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2008, 10:07:42 PM »
Fair point, Cor. I don't... really have anything else to say to that. I'm not sure that I see Alex's reasoning as being worse than anyone else currently voting for Kilga, given the spirit in which El Cid started the train to begin with, but neither is your vote on him all that damning. Wasn't my intention to manipulate the facts.

Soppy: ... uh. I don't think that sort of attitude would really fall under either "Play to Win" or "Don't Be Lame," which are pretty clearly cardinal rules as submitted by Carth. Nor does signing up for a game with that sort of fatalistic attitude strike me as anything like what Alex would do. So why make weird excuses for the guy?

Hunter Sopko

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2008, 10:17:20 PM »
Because I think it's as legitimate an explanation for his behavior as any?

Bardiche

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2008, 10:54:06 PM »
I'd say something of grave importance, but since my last post negligably little has changed. I want to hear some Alex, and am feeling a bit curious about Strago sticking to his "straw grasping" guns on EvilTom. Would like to see those thoughts solidified into a case stronger than the one on Alex. (shouldn't be too hard either, Alex's anti-case is pretty weak even for a Day 1 case, but then again we don't have much to work with)

Still don't have solid enough feelings about anyone to place a solid vote, but I'm looking at Strago for the above, Alex for general shenanigans.

I'd like to hear some of Xanth (re: Sopko's vote against him, current state of affairs), and would definitely like to see EvilTom again or hear any of those that've disappeared since the initial jokevote phase and haven't shown themselves since Xanth started us off.

Excal

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2008, 11:00:09 PM »
It'd be legitimate for some other folk.  I mean, it's something I might do if I was in his position, but it's not something Alex would do.  I mean, he's the guy who one time did his best to act like Ciato in the hopes of avoiding a lynch that way.  Maybe this is another case of giving the guy more respect than he's actually due, but I don't think this is him giving up.

On the other, far more annoying, hand.  He's also the guy who has stated it is a goal to shake up his behaviour every game so that he isn't predictable.  Not by scum, not by town.  Which...  yeah, means I'm reading him as a big ol' null tell right now.

Bard I find interesting for his metagame flushing commentary, and general WTF-ness, but I'm not sure what it is exactly about him that I find interesting.  So, someone I'll be watching.

Carthrat

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2008, 11:04:34 PM »
Day 1, Votecount!

EvilTom: Kilgamayan, Strago
AndrewRogue: Excal
Corwin: HunterSopko
Affinity: Bardiche
Excal: Xanth, SirAlex
El-Cideon: Affinity, Kiro
Bardiche: El-Cideon
Kilgamayan: EvilTom, Corwin, El-Cideon, SirAlex
SirAlex: Xanth. Corwin
Xanth: HunterSopko
Strago: Kiro

7 to lynch, 24 hours remaining or so.
WHAT BENEFITS CAN ONE GET FROM SCIENTOLOGY?

Sierra

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2008, 11:08:22 PM »
I'd say something of grave importance, but since my last post negligably little has changed. I want to hear some Alex, and am feeling a bit curious about Strago sticking to his "straw grasping" guns on EvilTom.

Pretty much justified until Tom actually talks again. I mean, what else can Strago do about this? He can't really drop the line of discussion before the person he's questioning has responded (which...should probably be soon. It's morning in bizarro world).

Bardiche

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2008, 11:13:47 PM »
Excal: I'm already taken, though. The love between Akane and me is indestructible, so remember that. Your interest in me can't ever become more than a platonic love (or hatred).

El Cid: You're right. I was just curious given that he expressed that "Corwin looks worst", so I wondered whether he wanted to stick to his EvilTom guns which was based on 'reaching for straws', or if his dislike for the current train could be solidified into a case against someone.

AndrewRogue

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2008, 11:14:46 PM »
Flying home today, so I'll start posting tonight for real.

Strago

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2008, 11:38:27 PM »
I'd say something of grave importance, but since my last post negligably little has changed. I want to hear some Alex, and am feeling a bit curious about Strago sticking to his "straw grasping" guns on EvilTom. Would like to see those thoughts solidified into a case stronger than the one on Alex. (shouldn't be too hard either, Alex's anti-case is pretty weak even for a Day 1 case, but then again we don't have much to work with)

I'm not going to be changing the vote any time before Tom actually shows up again and makes some contribution of any worth. As it stands his contribution have been 100% OMGUS and meta-game, so the vote stays until he convinces me otherwise or I see something more worthwhile. So far, nothing strikes me as compelling enough to let Tom off the hook. This is not to say, of course, that such a thing could not occur. I certainly hope it does, or this will make for a sad and uneventful Day 1.

Xanth

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Hound Centurion Liquid
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2008, 12:07:10 AM »
I dislike Xanth's reasoning voting Alex. It seems... simply flawed. I know people reach at the beginning, but you're going to pin your first real vote on the basis that "Scum pay less attention" when you know that that isn't true?

You're right, I do have my sayings mixed up, my mistake. I'm not particularly sure why I've otherwise been given the total benefit of the doubt in my absence, but hey. I don't agree with this view of 'real' vote when these things come in drips and measures in day one. I still find the voting patterns at the start of this game to be rather odd, but I've moulded this unease on a fallacious principle, which I should have been hit harder for.

Not that I understand Alex any better now. Not that I can see what the scum angle would be on this behaviour, but I don't see any of, you know, Alex in there, nor anything approaching useful play. This is still the sorest thumb out there, so my vote yet stays (even with the incorrect rationale on top, I stand by the double-voting weirdness as something to start from).


Elsewhere, I completely and totally side with using metagaming where possible/sensible. Town should be using every last weapon at its disposal. At least use what you have of it to guide your suspicions if you're not willing to use it to directly justify voting for someone. And no, Tom's joke argument obviously doesn't count as such, given that it's not at all meaningful. I don't particularly like Strago bringing up an old game only to immediately toss the argument out of the window, but that's not for the metagaming, just for bringing up an argument that's completely tossed away in the same breath that it's posited.


Xanth: Who would you prefer to see at three votes right now, if not me?

Most other people, if anyone at all. Putting you to three effectively put a poll to everyone saying 'hey guys, what do you think about Kilga so far?', which nets us bugger all information when you had at that point just posted a fairly typical joke vote and nothing more, at a time where it was reasonable to have done that much. Anything else you get from this from seeing how people react to a generic first train would be better served on someone that we could actually talk about more than just 'oh, he made a joke vote'.

So yes, given quite how early it was at that point, my answer is effectively 'on no one'. Answering the question for now, I'd say I want more of a spotlight on Alex, Bardiche for his typical shallow commentary style, maybe more on Tom if he doesn't jump out of his first vote as a joke, and El Cid for opting to frame the discussion quite so early.

Ranmilia

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2008, 12:57:09 AM »
All right, hangover's going away.  Let's see.

Random wagon day 1 is great for starting discussion and getting reactions without cluttering the board with (what are usually) townie spats and stupid inconsequential arguments.  I know we've been through this before.  I'd like to efficiently find scum.

So, reactions.  Kilga did all right.  The two of note are Bard and Xanth.  Bard's I'm not quite sure what to make of, but I don't dislike it right now.

Xanth on the other hand, in descending order of possibly scummy stuff:
- Maintaining his wall of text style, even this early on day 1.  I loved it when we were scumbuddies together and he did that.  Side'sve switched.  It's not a good style.
- doing above while calling Bard on his own usual style (which is right and should be done, but is a bit on the eye raising side given his own style)
- Pro-metagaming, which is a very dangerous stance in the best of cases.  If you're going to metagame, at least use it well and be able to explain it.  "I don't see any Alex in there" is the worst possible form.
- Very quick to go on the two votes issue, not scummy in itself but questionable given how he's sticking to it.

Pretty good for me for now.
##Unvote: Kilga
##Vote: Xanth

Sierra

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Re: Hound Centurion Liquid
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2008, 01:07:09 AM »
Most other people, if anyone at all. Putting you to three effectively put a poll to everyone saying 'hey guys, what do you think about Kilga so far?', which nets us bugger all information when you had at that point just posted a fairly typical joke vote and nothing more, at a time where it was reasonable to have done that much. Anything else you get from this from seeing how people react to a generic first train would be better served on someone that we could actually talk about more than just 'oh, he made a joke vote'.

It's easy to say that you disagree with arbitrary day one trains in general, but much harder to provide a solid alternative. Frankly, I didn't see a whole lot else going on at that time in the game. There was Strago on Tom (which I've stated doesn't look like much to me--and anyway, pursuing that avenue is useless until Tom revives) and you commenting on voting pairs (which I believe is all coincidence). Is there something about Kilga in particular that makes a train on him objectionable to you? Sure, he'd only made a joke vote, but that could be said about most of the group. He was no better or worse than anyone else at the time, really. I freely acknowledge that I chose him because he could be put in the lead. As a means to an end, I don't see a problem with this, and nor do I feel that there were better alternatives at the time.

EDIT: Alexninja! Don't think it changes anything.

Affinity

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2008, 01:31:43 AM »
##Unvote
##Vote: Strago

Personally, I think Tom made a joke, and that people have been making too much of it.  While I don't think that's scummy in itself, he also did do a passing shot at Corwin which I don't see the rationale for, even before Corwin explained himself.  Furthermore, reducing what is seen as a joke vote into "100% OMGUS and meta" sounds really questionable, like a storm in a teacup, though I can see why you want him to respond and such.

Would you single out people like Xanth for his endorsement of meta, Strago?

---

Kilga is really fine for now.  There isn't much to go by, really, with his one post.  As for SirAlex, where was his reaction after your fourth vote?  I don't see it.  

--

Also, I think it's weird that Excal and Xanth indirectly criticize Bard on his 'shallow commentary-like style', while Hunter Sopko, in my opinion, is more towards that direction so far as compared to him.  Any reason for this, or is it based on meta?


EvilTom

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2008, 01:37:00 AM »
"Har har let's just lynch EvilTom and be done with it", I'm sick of that jokevote, I thought we were past it now. I replied with my own one-line joke vote, during jokevote phase. It was only as serious as my hurt feelings - Kilga I thought we were friends :(
Anyway that's the end of that. ##Unvote;
It's far more interesting to look at Corwin's reaction. But actually Xanth is the most interesting, but I'll get to that.


I'm not going to be changing the vote any time before Tom actually shows up again and makes some contribution of any worth.
Timezones/Australia etc.

As it stands his contribution have been 100% OMGUS and meta-game, so the vote stays until he convinces me otherwise or I see something more worthwhile. So far, nothing strikes me as compelling enough to let Tom off the hook.
Whoa, harsh. My OMGUS meta-game jokevote = Guilty until proven innocent. What crime am I being 'let off the hook' for? I made a (slightly irritated) jokevote (I can't see how anyone could mistake it for a serious case) and you jump all over me, despite Corwin placing a second vote on Kilga without any justification that you completely ignore.
Strago, you admit you're grasping at straws to vote for me. This is not a good thing. It looks like you've done your best to reason out Xanth, whilst ignoring everyone else (Corwin).
Making something out of nothing etc. and I ask why. 
And now onto something even more concerning! (This is indeed an eventful day 1).



No, I'm pretty happy with my vote where it is for now. It's early day one and I'm not pushing for decapitating the teacher on the back of it, yes, but my vote should still be somewhere at this point, and the weird mass of double-voting has been the only thing to worry me. The only thing I want to retract at this point is the use of the word 'spastic', which is bordering on uncivil even when in jest about in-character play.
Ah Xanth, with his walls-o-text that say nothing.

I'm more on Kilgamayan's side than Tom's in that little fray, partially for Strago's reservations and also because Tom's joke argument is [unsurprisingly] incorrect. Well, I'm not really on Kilga's side so much as I'm against randomly firing him into the lead so soon.
Please explain. Are you on Kilga's side? What is Kilga's side? From what perspective are you against me, or are you simply against me for the sake of having a stance against me? You've provided no justification other than.. more walls of text and referencing Strago (which doesn't say anything either).

Quote
Elsewhere, I completely and totally side with using metagaming where possible/sensible. Town should be using every last weapon at its disposal. At least use what you have of it to guide your suspicions if you're not willing to use it to directly justify voting for someone. And no, Tom's joke argument obviously doesn't count as such, given that it's not at all meaningful. I don't particularly like Strago bringing up an old game only to immediately toss the argument out of the window, but that's not for the metagaming, just for bringing up an argument that's completely tossed away in the same breath that it's posited.
That.. is a contradiction to what you said earlier! Unless I'm mistaken.

That combined with other issues such as Alex, (which I don't have time to look at right now) lead me to ##Vote: Xanth, he seems most concerning so far.

Argh ninjas - will have to address this stuff later, no time now.
This is your life and it's ending one minute at a time.

Sierra

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2008, 02:07:42 AM »
Also, I think it's weird that Excal and Xanth indirectly criticize Bard on his 'shallow commentary-like style', while Hunter Sopko, in my opinion, is more towards that direction so far as compared to him.  Any reason for this, or is it based on meta?

Bard's been called out on that sort of thing before.

As for metagaming in general, I second the misgivings voiced by Alex and others. It's not wholly useless, but it's not particularly reliable, either. When tallying up the factors against a suspect, I'd weigh in metagame aspects least (if at all). Any decent (read: adaptable) player (note: don't assume I'm claiming to be one. I've had my share of flameouts) should try to learn from past mistakes and change things up regardless of what their alignment is. If that doesn't happen, then we wind up with every game devolving into "Player X will always use gambit Y when his alignment is Z." And that's just lame.