My-Hime Mafia

[Kiro]

Corwin:
I didn't intend to phrase it as, "Kilga sounds persuasive so I'll go along with it." It's more like it's Kilga's case and I can't claim credit to it, but I do agree with it and tried to add whatever insight I had so I'm not strictly bandwagoning on.

Letting scum kill Alex is the WIFOM that comes with the insane copclaim. Let's assume optimistically that he is one and we should hope he finds scum. If he dies by scum's hand, that clears up the WIFOM. If he doesn't, scum has to play catch up and off all the confirmed Townies Alex has listed. This also sets up a trap to catch scum if we have a Watcher. In other words, even if Scum want to play that WIFOM, they can't maintain it to the end. Scum would off Alex in the next few days if Town doesn't do it for them. So like you just said, don't kill Alex right now. I just think Alex would die before we got to a LYLO because the numbers are so skewed against them right now with the number of confirmed they'd have to kill. If the worst case scenario occurs that Alex himself is scum, he'll obviously label Townies innocent because he knows that alignment. That relegates him to basic scumhunting. I believe his failure to do that is the only time Town should try to lynch him, not because of the uncertainty of his role. You lynch for scumminess, not for policy.

I stated earlier why I took Alex's investigative result as it is. It's way too risky for Alex to lie. Simple as that. Scum Alex in this case had already lost the Godfather. To do something so bold puts the spotlight on him and his days are numbered. It just seems too wild a ploy for Scum to try given how long they actually have to last, probably into Day 5. So yea, I was compelled to believe Alex's result and chalk up what I thought about Tom as wrong.

If you want some original thoughts on why I have problems with the Excal case, then here it goes: Excal votes second on Sopko stating Sopko boosts Andrew up oddly but at the same leaves himself off the Xanth wagon despite posting again recently. Saying he wants to pursue a new wagon to get more information isn't a bad idea at the time because only Cid is on it and Xanth has 5 votes. A scum Excal could preemptively try to bus Sopko at the 2nd vote, but he has to realize he's bussing the Godfather. If the wagon picks up (which it does), he just unnecessarily set back his own side when there wasn't any good reason to. He could have gone onto Xanth and put him back on L-1 and pretty much swing discussion to whether it's worth hammering Xanth. So I believe the action of voting Sopko makes more sense if Excal is Town. Pinning the second vote on Sopko just reinforces a new idea and allows for it to snowball which is the last thing Scum really wanted.

In Day 2, he gives an interesting alternate view on the Xanth/Tom conflict that in retrospect actually looks true. He also pursues Alex because he feels based on the above that Alex could be manipulating a Town vs Town spat to his advantage. I wouldn't say he ignores Alex after the copclaim, but immediately realizes the inherent flaw that Alex could be lying or insane. He probably realizes what we all realize now, there's no way to tell without Alex dying himself. Eventually, he's convinced to vote Tom by the weight of the copclaim (as most everyone is).

To get onto Bardiche's case about him, he calls Excal lurking. Excal's not actively lurking unless he's lying about not being available and it's not justified to vote someone for that. So Bardiche has the wrong initial reason for voting Excal, on a Day 3 no less. THAT's the main reason why I'm voting Bardiche. I also think Bardiche is just not finding good points against Excal which cements my suspicion of him. Add that in the back and forth between Bardiche and Kilga, I'm not finding Bardiche very convincing about his views on other players. He's basing his arguments more on personal interpretation saying something like, Excal didn't respond to me because he had to go. So? The Day's not going to end quite yet and some people are pushing for that extension. I don't see the harm in it right now and I have to go out for the afternoon myself right this minute so I probably missed a few points to address.

##Extension

[Ranmilia]

Up again.  I don't think an extension for today will be helpful.  Same reasons Corwin posted.  Still think Bard is scummiest today, same reasons Kilga posted.

Everyone else:

Andrew tops the list of scumminess and/or flat out weirdness.  To wit, he's... unvoting me, because he finds Xanth so incredibly scummy?  Really?  More to the point, though, he's consistently pushing unlikely role theories and making his cases on the basis of people not "considering" them.  I don't see any validity or worth in doing so, it's just a distraction.  You want to lynch me because I got Tom lynched and he flipped town?  Okay, I can understand that.  You want to lynch me because I "didn't consider" scum having a hitman instead of a roleblocker?  .... whaaat?

His other questions have already been answered for the most part, nothing new to say there.  Shock of shocks, I'm not going to be Super Town Leader every game, it is in fact possible for other people to make cases I agree with and will join them in voting on!

Kiro, and to a lesser extent Affinity, have been voting late or not at all.  They talk, they have a bit of thread presence, but no votes.  I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if one of them were scum.

No one else really stands out right now.

[Carthrat]

Day 3 votecount!

Excal (1): Bardiche
Bardiche (4): Kilgamayan, SirAlex, Strago, Kiro
SirAlex (1): Affinity, AndrewRogue

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Roughly 14 hours remaining, give or take. One more ##extension required for extension.

[AndrewRogue]

Conveniently got back earlier than I was expecting and am not setting out immediately again.

Anyhow, to wit.

Corwin: I'm fine with arguments not being restated every time. I am not fine with someone saying

The point I'm making here being here that if you still think I could be scum that Alex must be my partner, so other possibilities should not be entertained.

. This is PATENTLY false, because there is still another realistic possibility floating around (re: the framer argument) and seems to be designed to railroad town into a certain way of thinking. More to the point, it doesn't sit well with me at all that the combinations that Xanth say MUST be the truth are rather beneficial to a scum Xanth (he either gets a clear via town Alex or gets Alex lynched as scum).

I do apologize for not actually acknowledging that you had brought up the Framer possibility, but I still do have some problems with the floating of if X is A then Y must be B without more pieces of the puzzle being in place. While I might be putting too much stock in more outsider possibilities (framer, etc), I also think its dangerous to get a little too attached to the most obvious solutions.

Alex: No. I'm unvoting you because the framing of Xanth's argument put me in a position where I was bothered by the method in which he worked to tie your two alignments together and shut out other possibilities. If this was not clear enough from the thrust of my reasoning earlier, than here it is, plain as could be said.

Otherwise, well. You're kind of cherry picking my arguments here. It wasn't that you "didn't consider scum having a hitman instead of a roleblocker" that I'm concerned, its because you mention it as a possibility, then backtrack and say "nope, can't be" when that is patently false. This isn't the first time you've made a mistake like this during this game either (considering Paranoid Cop as a possibility for yourself). So please, try to avoid misrepresenting my arguments like that? I laid out pretty clearly that there are a number of problems I've had with you this game, and you just kind of hand wave them off, which doesn't do much for me, unfortunately.

Which... leaves me in a decidedly uncomfortable position. Personally, I'm convinced that at least one of Alex and Xanth is scum. So. I suppose, at this point, I would like to hear thoughts on the subject. I've pretty much laid out my issues with both as it stands right now, and I want to know if people are willing to go this route (and if so,  what they think) or if everyone really does feel that someone else (e.g. Bard) is a better candidate for the day. In the meanwhile, I'm going to consider which of Alex/Xanth I personally consider the more likely candidate and further review the Bard case.

[Xanth]

Yeah, okay, so I've horribly failed at the time, and had another thing I'd read as simplistic as not being watertight in a different farfetched possibility. I am now sufficiently (not very) fatigued with the game to not start writing another major post at like 1:30am, which is bad town by itself as well as combined with breaking my own commitment earlier on, for which I apologise in advance if this actually hurts town (and in general for being moody now at all, which no one in the game deserves). I shall proceed in the morning when I should have stopped feeling so frustrated, but my ordering has now left looking at the immediately pertinent cases till mere hours before the deadline, which is silly.

For what it's not really worth, I had been reading Excal poorly if not for his part in the Sopko lynch which boggled the rest of my view, and hadn't read Bardiche as damningly badly as others are seeing it. Oh, and Andrew I'm also looking at badly for at least through to the end of day two, but revealing that now doesn't reflect well, which is the problem with doing this stuff so late.

[Kilgamayan]

I see no reason for an extension given the way the day seems to have stagnated already.

Andy, if you had a gun to your head, who would you vote for right now? (Ignore the fact that Bard is at L-2.)

Xanth, same question, same stipulation.

[Bardiche]

##EXTENSION, because I really don't have much of a will to die so uselessly. Noms are over so getting to bed.

So Bardiche has the wrong initial reason for voting Excal, on a Day 3 no less. THAT's the main reason why I'm voting Bardiche. I also think Bardiche is just not finding good points against Excal which cements my suspicion of him. Add that in the back and forth between Bardiche and Kilga, I'm not finding Bardiche very convincing about his views on other players. He's basing his arguments more on personal interpretation saying something like, Excal didn't respond to me because he had to go. So?

This is still, "I disagree with the case you've made so I'm voting you" to me and I can't really formulate any defense to that! Do you have any reasons that go beyond, "I don't like his case against Excal" or "Hey, Bard's a bit miffed because Excal posted about an hour after the vote against him and didn't even post acknowledgement to it!"

I dunno man, at least acknowledging someone wants you dead would've already done it for me─the major reason I voted Excal when I did and didn't vote on anything or anyone else is that I wanted to see if a vote'd get him to at least respond to it, since he knew I had opposition to him since the last day.

Even if you all think my case against him is whack it doesn't mean I don't believe in it.

[Carthrat]

Day 3 votecount! Extension implemented, +24 hours get.

Excal (1): Bardiche
Bardiche (4): Kilgamayan, SirAlex, Strago, Kiro
SirAlex (1): Affinity, AndrewRogue

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Roughly 30 hours remaining, give or take.

[AndrewRogue]

The problem is that the day sort of stagnented without anything really useful happening. We got a sort of "Bard's being passive" push and that was... pretty much it. If people really don't think it is doing anything, we can simply push on with a lynch and ignore the extra time.

Gun to my head... I think... I'd go Alex. For all the internal debate I have between Xanth and Alex right now, the problems I've had with Alex have generally been larger, more prominent and it puts to rest all debate about his role. Yeah, I'm having issues moving on, but the whole day 1 deal and everything that has come out of it still feels like the most substantive and likely case to me.

Having had the day to think about it, as much as I'm cautious about hitting Alex in light of Xanth's commentary, it does nothing to quell my suspicions of Alex himself, and lynching him would at least provide some actual information. As it stands... I... think I'm willing to drag this case out one more day to see what information (or lack thereof) Alex provides tomorrow, especially given that I seem to be the only one who is actively interested in this case at the moment (well... Affinity's slight efforts aside), despite my better efforts.

Moving down the line... it'd probably go Xanth (when you can't hit candidate 1, hit candidate 2, but this is tempered by the above) -> Bard/Affinity/Kiro (all of them just feel lacking/passive).

So, if people aren't going to go the Alex/Xanth route today, we might as well as hit the passive/quiet ones since I'm not really convinced about any of the other players.

[Xanth]

Right, back. Today I am busy from 3pm-8pm(ish), so I'll streamline what I can.

Kilga: My full list at the moment is as follows:

Excal > Kilga > (Affinity, Andrew, Bardiche) > || Excal > Kiro > || Strago > Corwin > Strago > Alex >> Xanth

Where:
 -Little Excal is my position on him without the few key (by which I think I may mean just the Sopko push) things he's done to wreck with that view.
 -Little Strago is where I place him based on horrible, horrible conjecturing that I'm not even going to try. It doesn't really matter because:
 -Rightmost || is the line beyond which I definitely would not support lynching at this point.
 -Leftmost || is the line beyond which I'd really rather not lynch short of a forced hand or major argument.
 -Mess in the middle in brackets I'm not sold on. 'Gun against head' puts it at Andrew > Bardiche > Affinity.

So to now actually answer your question, my vote would be on you, with the major negative to that being that I haven't digested the Bardiche push yet due to length. Otherwise, I'm only likely to really push against the Bardiche lynch if I disagree with the case on him strongly enough, Andrew reads particularly poorly or I can convince myself that Excal's roadblocks aren't an alibi.


A couple of other random things:
-I'd normally be against an extension, but with several players claiming that they're going to be away for huge sections of the day (Excal's been gone for longer than expected, and Strago'd otherwise be completely out) it stops that stifling quite so much.
-The more time runs on, the more Alex wears on me. I'm no less sure of my position on the gambits (see how low he remains on my list), but a lot of his actions really haven't helped to reinforce this.

[Affinity]

@Andrew:

Just wondering, but why would you consider Kiro as passive/lacking?  He does give his own share of good opinions too, I feel, at least as much as you do, especially on the Excal/Bard case, and that comment seems rather interesting.  Myself, and Bardiche, I can more or less understand to some extent.  It would be nice if you could describe 'lacking' for all three cases, though.

One thing I would like to point out is that I don't quite understand the scum Framer role (am quite new to this), except that he can target a person (say Xanth) and frame him as scum.  How does this refute the Alex is town => Xanth is town logic?  And even if so, how would another investigation help in your determining of Alex's alignment?  It seems rather contradictory; I doubt him investigating Xanth was very obvious, after all.

---

@Xanth:

Could you explain why Andrew is so high up your list?

---

@Bardiche:

Throughout the game, you have more or less focused only on the people attacking you; thus the spirit of the cornered wombat, with the exception of Excal.  What do you think of everyone else? 

[Kilgamayan]

Andrew's answer satisfies me again.

Xanth's, not so much. The feeling I get from Xanth, from both his most recent post and his earlier assessments of several players, is that he seems unwilling to put a case forward or to solidly accuse anyone. Me aside, the most he pressed anyone earlier on was an "uncertain neutral" on Affinity, and with this most recent post the two frontrunners both have stipulations attached that could potentially knock them down a few pegs on the scum pole.

Xanth formed one solid accusational opinion all game, and it was on a townie. This does not sit well with me at all. Perhaps Xanth was onto something when asking me why I didn't keep going after him.

---

I have another concert today (that I need to leave before noon for), and the traveling distance for this one is longer, so I don't expect to be back again before 9 Eastern.

[Bardiche]

Okay, this game is going slow as fuck.

What do I think about people you ask, Affinity?

I think Xanth needs to make his position clear. Right now I have no idea what he plans on doing, and I have a hammer looming above my head so I'd like to know what the damn deal is here.

I think AndrewRogue stating, "Hey I want to lynch Alex/Xanth" but not bothering to go through with it is just stupid. I mean, c'mon dude, if you don't think I deserve that lynch the most, how about you actually go push your convictions forward? Pick a stance and see it through. I'm being mighty uncomfortable here and slightly annoyed at how suddenly everyone's shuffling their feet and watching what unfolds when you could be, y'know, saving my life.

Corwin's alright. I don't think he's all that scummy. Whatever made me feel uneasy about him is simply the way he words things, and obviously I'm not going to hold your pattern of speech against you in a game of lies and deceit.

What do you honestly expect though at this juncture? I'm not about to go screaming OMG EVERYONE'S SCUM and completely cement my demise.

I think Excal's scum. Lynch him.

[Carthrat]

Day 3 votecount!

Excal (1): Bardiche
Bardiche (4): Kilgamayan, SirAlex, Strago, Kiro
SirAlex (1): Affinity, AndrewRogue

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Roughly 14.5 hours remaining, give or take.

[AndrewRogue]

Well, Bard. Currently my main problem is that my push is failing, which is causing me to second guess myself and debate whether or not I want to try and actively pursue this any further. Effectively, my confidence in my case and my risk taking is being cut by the fact that no one else is really pushing in the same direction.

Bardiche... you raise an interesting point about foot shuffling. However, at the same time, you sort of undermine that position by expecting us to be the ones to save your life. Why are you simply sticking to your guns on Excal/self-defense when there are other theoretical cases you could be pursuing? In other words, why aren't you fighting to save your life? Sticking your guns on exactly one candidate and your defense isn't a good way to save yourself from the lynch train.  You've kind of made passing movements at other candidates, but even with the end barreling down on you, you just sort of gesture at a case that no one is really buying into at this point.

Which brings me to the question of why aren't you taking this anywhere else? If you are town, you really should be fighting tooth and nail to stay alive. Almost any lynch is better than you. You know you are town. Why wouldn't you take almost any lynch (short of a confirmed townie) over you? So why aren't you jumping on any other cases?

I've decided. I will let the Alex/Xanth issue go one more day. I want to see what happens tonight. I intend to resolve it if at all possible tomorrow. Today, I saw the case on Bard, didn't disagree and feel that that last post is pretty bad. So.

##Vote: Bardiche

That is -1 to hammer.

[Affinity]

@Andrew:

Just wondering, but why would you consider Kiro as passive/lacking?  He does give his own share of good opinions too, I feel, at least as much as you do, especially on the Excal/Bard case, and that comment seems rather interesting.  Myself, and Bardiche, I can more or less understand to some extent.  It would be nice if you could describe 'lacking' for all three cases, though.

One thing I would like to point out is that I don't quite understand the scum Framer role (am quite new to this), except that he can target a person (say Xanth) and frame him as scum.  How does this refute the Alex is town => Xanth is town logic?  And even if so, how would another investigation help in your determining of Alex's alignment?  It seems rather contradictory; I doubt him investigating Xanth was very obvious, after all.

Mmhmm... Apparently, the reason why we're lacking is because you don't read.  ##Unvote, ##Vote: AndrewRogueOh, and the above sounds rather forced and very ungenuine.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with sticking with a vote especially when the person you're voting isn't responding.  I can see that, if you criticize his reasoning for such, then yes sure, but you're criticizing him for not bandwagon-hopping.  This is rather silly, and you don't look good to me now.  If anything, I would criticize him for changing his vote when nothing in the situation called for it... it would look like scum trying to make his lynch stick without good reasons especially since Excal didn't say anything (correct me if I'm wrong).  In short, reasoning for your vote sounds rather contrived.

[Kilgamayan]

Hi ho, back, nothing has really changed.

To answer Affinity's question about the framer, the possible existence of a framer falisfies TownAlex => TownXanth (as well as ScumXanth => ScumAlex) because Alex could, in fact, be sane and simply have hit a framed Tom Night 1.

[AndrewRogue]

Affinity: Uh... I'm sorry I missed a post? No need to develop an attitude about it. I've been focusing a bit on the current cases, and thus managed to forget the questions you asked earlier. A simple reminder would suffice. :p

To address your questions...

On the subject of lacking, Version Bardiche: Fairly intense on a single case and relatively reactive posting. Not so much scum hunting as sitting back and watching cases develop. Not even really defending himself or scumhunting with that much fervor. The most damning part about it is the relative passiveness that is bothering me here.

Version Affinity: Generally speaking, you haven't contributed that much. You've added an okay thing here or there, but most of your posts have been spent either asking questions or bringing up singular points and never really striving to develop a real case. While this is... okay, it isn't bringing what I would consider much real content to the game. Suffice it to say, I really had to go back and review all your posts to remember anything you've brought up.

Version Kiro: The end of day 1 shenanigans (including his relative indecision going into the end of the day) is a large part of it. Add in the lack of a really strong vote record and a method of discussion similar to Bardiche (although, admittedly on a reread, better) in which he just sort of posts observations and breaks down either cases, rather than really building up on any other ones. I might be misinterpreting him slightly, but it really seems like he isn't building up any real cases of his own either.

On the subject of the Framer logic: Alex as town => Xanth as town could be refuted by the presence of a framer disrupting Alex's apparent sanity. Tom gets framed night 1, Alex investigates and gets scum result. Flips as town, so everyone assumes Alex must be an insane cop, when, in truth, he's a sane cop. Night 2, he investigates Xanth and gets scum as a result. Due to presumed insanity, we assume he must be town. However, since Alex is actually a sane cop who hit a framed target, he could actually be real scum.

In other words, if Alex's target was framed, all our assumptions about Alex's role would be wrong. So, a framer opens the potential for Sane Cop Alex and Scum Xanth.

On giving him one more day: Actually, the reason for giving him one more day is to get one more potential result out of Alex and see how the night unfolds. It could help with his alignment, but the main reason is to see who scum try to kill/do whatever else they can do. There are a few different options they have, and seeing which one/s they take might be an educational experience. The off-chance of better information and perhaps another confirmed alignment stemming from Alex's death would be great before he dies.

On the subject of Bardiche: There is a problem with him sticking to his vote. Presuming that Bardiche IS town, he is the only one who is 100% aware of his own alignment. As such, lynching ANYONE ELSE is a statistical improvement for hitting scum. Thus, in most situations, I feel that a townie who is in danger of being lynched should, in almost every circumstance, be trying to move to another active lynch train. It really does boil down to simple statistics. Bardiche staying on Excal at this point is doing nothing for him. If he wants to live (which, really, a townie should), he should be working to find some way to do this.

The most obvious way is moving to another building lynch train if you have no reason to believe this is an absolutely awful idea. Again, if you are town, lynching you has a 100% chance of hitting town. Anyone else could POTENTIALLY be scum. So, when push comes to shove and your current main candidate is not working, I see no reason not to try something else. This, of course, doesn't mean you should abandon your previous case. It simply means you need to prioritize based on the situation. I'm certainly not advocating that he start randomly voting until a lynch sticks, I'm advocating that he keep his Excal case on the sidelines and pursue another avenue of attack.

So, essentially, I'm criticizing him for complaining that we aren't the ones trying to save his hide, when he himself isn't trying as hard as he could either.

Ninja'd: Kilga explained the Alex thing more succintly!

[Strago]

Well, I'm back. Blargh. Sorry my absence was as severe as I'd worried it might be. At this point I rather wish someone would just hammer Bardiche and be done with it. When a game hits a slump like this, extending the damn day is not going to get people all jazzed about re-invigorating their participation. It's bollocks that things have hit such an apparent impasse, so we pretty much need to kill someone and move on.

So Bardiche has the wrong initial reason for voting Excal, on a Day 3 no less. THAT's the main reason why I'm voting Bardiche. I also think Bardiche is just not finding good points against Excal which cements my suspicion of him. Add that in the back and forth between Bardiche and Kilga, I'm not finding Bardiche very convincing about his views on other players. He's basing his arguments more on personal interpretation saying something like, Excal didn't respond to me because he had to go. So?

This is still, "I disagree with the case you've made so I'm voting you" to me and I can't really formulate any defense to that! Do you have any reasons that go beyond, "I don't like his case against Excal" or "Hey, Bard's a bit miffed because Excal posted about an hour after the vote against him and didn't even post acknowledgement to it!"

This game is all about making cases against other players. "I don't like X's case against Y" is... one of the most basic and completely reasonable starting points of formulating any position ever, here. That seems like a given, to me.

I can't believe three people haven't voted yet. What the hell? Excal's AWOL, whatever, I did the same thing so obviously I can't yell at him for it, but at least I'd voted before my absence. Xanth and Corwin, though? What gives? Both have been active througout the day. Xanth in particular even seems to have organized his suspicions of the player base in a pretty clear way (aside from some weirdness and putting me in two slightly different town-seeming positions, whatever), but can't bring himself to translate that into a vote? That fact combined with how much of his time today was spent meta-analyzing the role setup and making proclamations about how Alex was definitively town and such... well, paints a picture of someone who's a bit edgy and not necessarily too interested in aggressively pursuing scum. Almost want to lynch Alex to see if he comes up actually Insane or not. There still could be a framer, I guess. Hell, maybe it's Xanth and that's why he's so aggressively gung-ho about linking himself to Alex in innocence to begin with.

Corwin, on the other hand... hmm. I can't see much that's actually damning, in his behavior, but the lack of vote is odd.

Kilga looks to me like town. There's nothing wonky there that I can see at the moment.

Andrew seems to be town as well, although somewhat less definitely. Largely a gut read.

Kiro and Affinity I lump together because I don't know what to think of them and am at least vaguely wary of 'em both.

I go back and forth on Excal. On the one hand, early vote against the Scum Godfather Day 1. On the other hand, he's been real passive and semi-participatory for a while now.

Alex is currently a closed book to me. I find his play slightly confounding in this game. Ah well. For the moment I'm weirdly unconcerned by it, because if he's really a Cop then obviously we don't want to lynch him, and if he's scum having a laugh then he's still under enough scrutiny right now that his fakeclaim certainly isn't dictating the way things go in general. So... time is needed for me to figure this one out.

Bleargh. We need some new information and a narrowing of the field. Let's off Bardiche.

[Excal]

And I'm back.  In that I'm here and in a state that could theoretically be called alive.  Anyways, I'll see what I can do to catch up and give you guys some coherant thoughts.

[Excal]

Alright, so I've completely gone over Bard's stuff and...  I'm not convinced.  He reads like a townie, has his argument, and while he does seem a little focused, he does pay attention to other people now and then.  He's wrong, sure.  But being wrong does not make one scum.

Also Bard, your attack is duly noted.  Sadly, there's not a whole lot I actually can say to it given the discussion seems to go like so.

Excal says: Hey guys, I'm not going to be around a whole lot.

Bard says: Hey guys, that Excal guy isn't around a whole lot!

Excal says: Yeah, I guess my metagame hoping for a luck based ubercop was totally irrational.  But wouldn't it have been sweet if we did have one?

Bard says: His irrational hopes aren't rational!

So...  yeah.  Most of your reasons against me are either things which I can't really refute because due to a combination of bad habits and a lack of time, you're bang on.  Or, constitute a difference of opinion such that I'm not sure there's anything really worth saying.  So, I'm not going to defend myself from you, and instead see if I can find people who I feel are worth lynching.

[Kiro]

Andrew: To answer what a person thinks about Alex/Xanth, I still think Alex is a cop. Risky to lie about it otherwise. Whether a Framer exists or not, I don't think a Scum Alex would risk lying without knowing whether a real cop exists. To talk about Xanth, if a Framer does exist, the only way Xanth could have been framed on Night 2 is if the Mafia have a combination of Godfather/Framer/Hitman. So it'd be a specific combination that had to have occurred exactly as it was supposed to last Night. Only thing I don't like about Xanth recently is why he would vote Kilga at the top of his chart? He has no points on that at all other than maybe reluctance about the Bardiche case. Otherwise, I think that the result on Xanth is correct. Letting Alex check someone else tonight is the better way to see whether a Framer actually exists short of lynching one.

Otherwise, not too much has changed about what I think. Bardiche's last post to just say Excal is scum and lynch him is just bad. To address Andrew again, I would say that because Affinity and I don't have our own cases doesn't mean that we're not scumhunting. I'd rather not blame Day start time as to why I haven't introduced a unique case before anyone else because it is beyond my control. I've tried to present my views to not be a direct rehash of what's been said before. Interestingly enough, I have to note that Alex presents very little about the Bardiche case except for a quick line of agreement from Kilga's points. I thought Alex would be around more to push his cases so it is becoming a bit unsettling that he's also contributing to Day 3's stagnation. But I still think he's a Cop so he's got to get out what ideas he has while Town still has everything going relatively in their favor.

[Excal]

Alright...  I need to sleep for work tomorrow, and I...  don't really have anything besides a general feeling that Bard and Kilga are town, and nothing on Alex that'd make me go after the cop.  Most of the rest of you are ciphers, and I think the best feel I have is on Andy, and even that is kinda tangental.  So, yeah.

Regardless, Andrew will get my vote, mostly because he dropped a case he didn't really give any reason for dropping (so what if no one else is jumping on it, you're not trying to save your skin), arguing that Bard drop what he has going in order to save his skin (and go for what, exactly?  If there isn't another case he feels compelled to make, he won't convince anyone and he'll look bad for jumping from case to case looking for something that'd stick.  And it's not like there's another train to board that would legitimately give him an option to survive.  As you may have noticed, at the moment of your posting, I was the second train with Bard's lone vote on me), and because he's the one person Soppy tied himself to in any non-trivial way that wasn't contradictory, or that isn't covered by the cop.

##Vote: Andrew

[Bardiche]

Yeah, okay, I guess this is where I die. I'm mightily annoyed right now. >_> Like... fuck, what, screw this.

Mostly you Alex. Goddamnit, try to stick with your team mates instead of bussing them at every damn opportunity.

Yeah, screw this game. ##VOTE: Bardiche

[Bardiche]

##UNVOTE: Excal
##VOTE: Bardiche

That's a legitimate hammer.