Author Topic: My-Hime Mafia  (Read 60051 times)

Xanth

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« Reply #375 on: December 09, 2008, 10:51:18 AM »
Not sure how that accidentally posted, but hey. Ignore the above, it is just the entirety of Alex's post in a quote, unedited.

Don't direct the doctor.

I'd normally agree, but in this case I believe that your dying tonight is the only thing between us and a guaranteed victory and so really should take top priority. It just about guarantees scum a kil that nighl, sure, but so what? The only thing I was being overprotective about is that the doctor would not need to protect you in a theoretical night 5, as we get the majority we need regardless.

Scum must kill and their target is informed of the attack if they survive, as per the rules, so there's no reason to doubt Kilga is clear.

Unless the scum was hit by a town roleblocker. In which case scumKilga's only way out is to claim to have been attacked, knowing that no one else will. It's just occurred to me that if this is the case then even if there is a town roleblocker and they did hit Kilga last night, it's not like they'd know if Kilga was scum or just protected. Yes, incredibly farfetched, especially given how unlikely a town roleblocking target Kilga should have been last night, but people have been looking for certainty, and that isn't actually certain.


Excal: As above. I've been hit for not considering the implausible possibilities.


Anyway, given that no one's actually had a problem with my plan yet (other than myself just now, hooray), I'm happy to keep things simple and drop a vote on Affinity. The vote for Alex is silly, given that if he is scum (which I can't believe)  he now has zero chance of winning anyway.

##Vote: Affinity


That's -1. If you're the doctor claim now, as lynching the doctor is the only other way to screw my plan now. If you're scum then you'll do so anyway, in which case I want the actual doctor to counter-claim, so at worst we have you and one other to lynch (unless people are theorising two doctors). If you're town but not the doctor, please don't take it badly and claim doctor anyway, but we'll actually still win anyway so long as the doctor protects Alex.

Xanth

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« Reply #376 on: December 09, 2008, 11:03:29 AM »
(unless people are theorising two doctors).

And yeah, it occurs to me that even in this implausible case that we're fine so long as the other doctor protects Alex, so sure.

Ranmilia

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #377 on: December 09, 2008, 12:25:59 PM »
Xanth, the doctor can see that for themselves and make their own decisions.  Like I said before, they "should" have protected you or me last night for the same reasons, and scum should have killed one of us.  Doc's judgment worked out pretty well for us then.  Not that I'm disagreeing with your position in this case, I think we have this in the bag, but the doc can see the situation as well as anyone else can and publicly directing them is a bad idea on principle. 

As far as Affinity goes - this is basically reference for future games here, in case you're either town or actually believe what you just said, and for others - I haven't responded because nothing you've said today is really worth responding to.  I could go into exhaustive detail, but that would result in walls of text which hurt town and the game in general.  Instead I trust the other players to be able to read and use some common sense to fill in the blanks.

Town knows where I'm at and where the game's at and if I was scum there would be at this point literally no way for me to win, since I would have to continue claiming an investigation clearing one of the uncleared townies every night, and either be lynched before LYLO when town got paranoid, or be left in an endgame with at least three other previously cleared townies (Xanth, Andrew and Kilga), in which case it would be painfully obvious I was lying.  This is all 100% concrete given the rules of the game.  If I was scum I'd be trapped right now.  (and probably say GG and tap out rather than waste everyone's time)

Saying I expected to be possibly lynched at that point in the game was just realism.  The guy I fingered as scum with my copclaim came up town.  That doesn't make arguing for my lynch any less scummy, since I am in fact town and scum would want me dead most of all.  Since then the situation's changed.

Strago didn't blatantly call out the NK as supposedly pointing to me as scum.

As far as scumhunting goes I seem to recall agreeing with and taking part in the lynches of Sopko and Bardiche as well as using my role powers to help clear multiple townies and put town in its current very advantageous position.  In fact IIRC I was the first other person to actually read and agree with Kilga's case on Bard and turn it into more than a 1v1 spat?  If you read Kilga's posts on him, they were very thorough, said everything that could possibly need to be said, caught Bard in several contradictions (actually scummy contradictions, not non-indicative gotchas) and were generally a very good case... that I get the feeling everyone but me dismissed because nobody else actually read the walls.  This is exactly why excessive walling is dangerous, by the way.  What Kilga did was very much right, but it was still almost overlooked because folks in the past (including most of the start of this game) abused text walling on cases that weren't very good or even weren't cases at all.  Probably not everyone in the game is even going to read this right here.

And of course since Kilga had already made the exhaustive case on Bard, and he was in fact quite right about it, I don't see how it makes sense to say that I should have done anything other than what I did with it - read, agree and vote with him.  That's why town makes cases in the first place.  It's not to make yourself look good and be able to say "here look at all these words I typed!", that's why SCUM do it and you should watch out for that.  Town makes cases to find scum and convince other townies to vote for the scum.

Regarding your Sopko callout - that's something you brought up in your own defense.  I point out that it can be turned around, then you say my turnaround is useless because "it can go either way."  You see why that's bad logic and scummy, right?  It invalidates your using it as a defense in the first place, if you think it can go either way why would you say it defends you?  If you simply overlooked that it can go either way, why are you opposing my comment pointing out the other side?  This is a behavior pattern that is much more likely to be taken by a scum scrambling for position than a townie.  The same applies to most of the other points that have been brought against you, like calling me on a supposed lack of critical thinking while in the same breath failing to think critically about the points people have brought up against yourself.

Normally, I would just say "Yep, Affinity's flailing in a scummy way" here.  This would imply everything I have said in the above paragraphs and I would trust the other players to understand what I meant by that and grasp all this on their own, without me having to make a titantic post detailing every point, as it should all be reasonably apparent to a rational player and the situation is such that everyone is focused on you already.

If you are town (or if you're a non-Affinity person reading this who didn't understand where I'm coming from here) please take this all into consideration for the future.  I do not mean to offend and apologize if I have done so.  But if you're scum, good game but please get hung now.  Love, Alex.

Carthrat

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #378 on: December 09, 2008, 12:29:51 PM »
Day 4 Votecount!

Kiro (0): Affinity
Affinity (4): SirAlex, Kiro, Corwin, Xanth
SirAlex (1): Affinity

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. There are roughly 23.5 hours remaining.
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Corwin

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #379 on: December 09, 2008, 12:54:57 PM »
The only potential problem I can see is if we have two scum left despite what we believe. But in that case, we'll see it with a potential LYLO announcement. To me, it would implicate Alex, but those of us making it to that point would surely be able to make their own conclusions.

Don't really like the way Xanth is trying to win the game via planning it all out, but I suppose we're in a place we could attempt that. Waiting on Affinity's claim feels contradictory to that stance. Even if Affinity claims doc (perhaps to escape lynch, say), would it actually matter to anyone who thinks he looks scummy?

In any case, what Alex said. If you're scum, please hang, and let's not waste 23.5 hours waiting on making that happen.

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #380 on: December 09, 2008, 02:56:16 PM »
Well, I'm simply vanilla town and I won't hang myself.  That much is certain.

And yes, I do feel offended by silence.  People ask questions to get answers, and whether you think they are scum or not, you are obliged to answer.  I do consider myself, in fact, at the very least, a semi-rational townie, and if I genuinely fail to understand, and want to have something to respond to, then the response must come from your lips.  In my eyes, these things are far from rhetorical, and furthermore, it's simply common courtesy.  Silence provides no distinction between thinking whether a question is inherently silly, or whether it's something you can't answer, and cannot be considered an excuse for anything, really.  Allows for no difference between, say, you and UK.

In fact, even if you think that your responses are impossible to refute, then you're going to have to second-check that assumption.

First of all, ##Unvote.  Made the vote thinking there was a potential hole, but there's probably only one scum left from the looks of it.  I'm sorry for being a bird-brain there.

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I point out that it can be turned around, then you say my turnaround is useless because "it can go either way.

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Soppy's play was a weaksauce attempt to tie himself to me, scumbuddies had to know this and would likely call him on it, but early, so it wouldn't have much effect, before it snowballed into a serious case.

It sounded more like a point against me rather than a turnaround.  Likely is the word you seemed to use, but 'likely' means more probable.  I simply don't think so, it should be 50-50 after what you raised.

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That doesn't make arguing for my lynch any less scummy, since I am in fact town and scum would want me dead most of all.

Just as suspicious townies would want you dead thinking that you were scum.  With only this alone, I doubt you can differentiate between scum knowing that you were cop trying to kill you, and town being concerned about you as suspicious.  Unless you can raise the issue of tone and wording, this point can only be used as completeness' sake and frankly, doesn't tell us anything on it's own.

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Strago didn't blatantly call out the NK as supposedly pointing to me as scum.

Just as you used 'likely' and 'who', I used 'pointing', which I meant 'very slightly and vaguely'.

---

Scumhunting point.  Hm, you were second-last on Sopko's bandwagon and you merely agreed on Bardiche.  Anyone awed by long posts can do that and quote a random part of text and what you could have done is to ask Bard questions directly.  There were possibilities of concerns by others, such as Corwin, that the case was all LAL and not much more, and you could have done, for example, what Strago had done on page 13.  Therefore, I had the reasons to say things about your scumhunting, you're simply not the example of it this game, and neither have I, but that's another matter.

I'll move back to Kiro.

##Vote: Kiro

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #381 on: December 09, 2008, 03:17:54 PM »
Morning, all. Looks like there was some activity while I slept. So, let's see.

I... have a pretty hard time not agreeing with the case on Affinity right now. Alex's most recent post says things pretty well. This little tidbit also just makes my head spin a bit with the weirdness and the weak arguing and the scumness and the glayven-HOYVEN.

If I'm not wrong, the last time Kiro voted was for me, at the beginning of day 2.  That's something to be concerned about.  I'm alright with him content-wise, though.

##Vote: Kiro

Ninja'd while writing/thinking: So Affinity's back on voting for Kiro, now. Mrff. My main problem there is that, while I'm not 100% on Kiro at the moment, he and Affinity give me pretty much the same sense of being vaguely passive players, and at this point I want more than that before I lynch someone. Hell, I wasn't able to be here for almost a whole dang weekend, and it's not like I'm going to lynch myself for it. Affinity, though, has been engaging in a lot of circular logic and scummyspeak, so... mrff. Yeah, I feel myself pretty willing to drop the hammer on him.

Strago: If we end up approaching LYLO (based on our assumptions of a 3-person scum team) without hitting scum, I believe we should lynch Alex. However, I also happen to think we should not, under any circumstances, lynch Alex before we're at that point. So yes, I'm intending to ignore Bardiche's last words, and just about any words from the point it was clear to him he was going down.

Basically my thinking, although if he is a scum fakester I hope we'd eventually be able to pick up on it before that point.

Harrumph. Yeah, I'm declaring my intent to hammer, here. Perfectly willing to wait if people want.

Kilgamayan

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #382 on: December 09, 2008, 03:42:01 PM »
I have no problem with Affinity getting the axe today, he's the only person left I would actively pursue (if other people hadn't done so already!).


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Corwin

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #383 on: December 09, 2008, 04:02:07 PM »
In case we mislynch today and I'm hit with the NK tonight, just wanted this out. Alex flipping insane cop would clear his targets from the moment we lynched Bardiche for me. Xanth would still hold a certain amount of suspicion from me since we don't know the last scum's abilities, if any (or even if it's the last one, sigh, let's hope for the best).

Xanth

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« Reply #384 on: December 09, 2008, 04:26:31 PM »
No, really Corwin, unless you really are suggesting a 9/4 start or two Godfathers (what the hell), I am now completely clear (of being scum, at least. I'm not ITP survivor either, but can't prove that) and scum need to NK me just about as much as the other leading issues. Framer is the only role that could have messed with Alex's readings, and now even that is impossible to implicate me. Please tell me if there is an actual hole in the reasoning I made on the issue (this post here, up to the end of the list near the start), but I believe this is watertight now given those two simple assumptions (not 9/4 and not two Godfathers).

I know I've been playing apathetic bad town, but I am for all intents and purposes cleared from scum.


I feel a little bad for lynching Affinity today assuming the claimed vanilla flip, but I'm content so long as we haven't lost power.

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #385 on: December 09, 2008, 04:29:18 PM »
I tried my best to defend myself, and I simply wanted a response from Kiro before I wanted to do anything else.  I really did think my arguments were valid, but if town thinks they aren't, then they aren't.
 
Before I die, what's the glayven-HOYVEN?

Corwin

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #386 on: December 09, 2008, 04:33:34 PM »
Xanth: Two scum left, one of whom is a framer, for example. Not actually impossible, just very unlikely. I said as much!

I'd also appreciate it if you helped our cause by hunting scum more and finding mathematical reasons you're squeaky clean less~

Kilgamayan

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #387 on: December 09, 2008, 04:39:53 PM »
Before I die, what's the glayven-HOYVEN?

It means Strago is Jewish.


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Kiro

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #388 on: December 09, 2008, 06:10:16 PM »
Well, this is curious.  How do you differentiate the 'intent to want to off' Alex with the 'intent to simply root out scum as quickly as possible'?  As for good leeway, I simply did not want him (if he was scum) to produce investigations until LyLo, where he magically pulls out scum from his hat, and I severely questioned that.  Also, see the theory I had about what El-Cideon's plan was here.  His death opposed to Alex's was unsettling.

The above despite the dramatic flair I put in that was unnecessary is relatively the same thing. The final result in both is his lynch. You were worried about him staying alive too long. The thing is though that you wanted him lynched Day 3 which plays more like Scum strategy. Also, trying to link suspicion to someone else's death is a part of scum manipulation. El-Cideon's death objectively only affects El-Cideon. You can't draw a definitive link to Alex and trying to infer a connection and take the safe route to kill Alex is scummy.

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This, I can't explain, other than the 'novelty' aspect of wanting to hammer for once and that I was pretty much disillusioned with Tom to the point of lynch.  I acknoledge that I could have waited though, but whether or not he would have responded satisfactorily with all his sins chalked up, I'm doubtful.
The problem with this point is that Andrew called for the hammer and you just went in and did it for him. Declaring hammers sometimes feels a little unnecessary since in that case Tom had probably said everything he was going to say. You sticking your neck out to "steal" the hammer while being your choice, was wholly unnecessary. The hammer should not be such a possessive thing, but people will still see it as such and you marked yourself weirdly for doing so.

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My vote was more towards a prod, seeing that you did not answer this point for very very long though it has been hanging in the air via Andrew.  The reasoning is the same as his which I didn't see the need to parrot, and calling my vote unreasonable is rather silly for that matter.  Vote on you stays.
Vote to prod is noted, but I see your vote to Alex again definitely feels like a vote to lynch. Unfortunately, you have to back off from that and come back to me again. Your indecisiveness is an awkward defense and I think it would have reflected better on you if you presented a stronger case on me, even if you have to parrot a little.

Kilgamayan

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #389 on: December 09, 2008, 06:31:35 PM »
Announcing intent to hammer Affinity in 10 minutes. If anyone has anything else to say, say it now.

If Affinity flips town and I die tonight, my current preferred lynch order is Kiro > Alex > Corwin > Excal > Strago > Andrew > Xanth (this would change based on Alex's report tomorrow but I'd be dead so :V). I do not think anyone from Excal on down should be lynched.


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Kilgamayan

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #390 on: December 09, 2008, 06:32:05 PM »
Actually, on second thought, flip Corwin and Alex.


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Corwin

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #391 on: December 09, 2008, 06:35:25 PM »
Actually, why do you consider Strago so townie? Call it curiousity.

Kilgamayan

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #392 on: December 09, 2008, 06:39:53 PM »
Because his vote on both scum wagons was at a prominent snowball time and he hasn't done a single thing to make me think he's scum aside from overreact on Day 1 to my saying his posts are too long.


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Kilgamayan

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #393 on: December 09, 2008, 06:44:22 PM »
(Also, for the curious, my bumping up of Corwin was because I realized his Sopko vote was forced by his prior position on Sopko here: if ScumCorwin had wanted to swing the wagon away from Sopko to make sure Xanth got axed instead he would have looked tremendously bad for doing a complete 180.)

##Vote: Affinity


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Kilgamayan

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #394 on: December 09, 2008, 06:56:35 PM »
I have been given permission to post after hammer to say HAMMER SHUT UP etc.

Hal will have Affinity's flip in a moment.


[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

Halbarad

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #395 on: December 09, 2008, 07:07:47 PM »
Day 4 Votecount!

Kiro (1): Affinity
Affinity (4): SirAlex, Kiro, Corwin, Xanth, Kilgamayan
SirAlex (0): Affinity

Affinity, aka Yuuki Nao, Vanilla Townie, was lynched!

Send night actions to the rodent, etc.
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Carthrat

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #396 on: December 10, 2008, 07:47:29 AM »
"Nao-chan, you know, you don't show up to class either. Why would you worry about Kuga like that?" asked Midori, staring at the redhead, who backed off. "Who has time for that stuff anyway..."

"Um, Yuuki-san, did you tempt Kazu-kun into his horrid actions? I know you did, we all know you play with men!" added Akane, pointing an accusing finger. "That loser? Get real, he's too young-"

"Did you enjoy killing Natsuki, Nao-san? It made me very sad. I don't think I can go easy on you..." murmured Shizuru, ruby naginata appears in her hands with a blinding flash. "You agree, yes, Suzushiro-san?"

"Hmph! She has an astounding lack of school spirit. Frankly, we should lynch her even if she didn't do it," snorts Haruka, gaining quite a few concerned stares. "Listen, you reprobates, I don't even believe all this end of the world crap! I can see when I'm not wanted, don't worry, I'm leav-"

"You tried to kill me!" snapped Aoi, glaring at Nao, who blanched. "What? When-" "The cooking! Last week! It was so bad, you had to have poisoned it! Nobody could be that awful!"

"Oh, come on! You should've just told me you didn't like arsenic! That's what I get for being a concerned roommate, huh?"

Not even Mikoto asking what arsenic tasted like could deter the crowd from dispatching the admitted killer. Who, it turned out, was on a series of dates for the past five nights and was in no position to kill anyone, judging by messages on her phone.

<->

The next day, everyone showed up at the library once more. It seemed that nobody was hurt, again, though a sense of paranoia still filtered through the air.

1. Fujino Shizuru (Corwin)
2. Sugiura Midori (SirAlexTheFirst)
3. Yuuichi Tate (Excal)
4. Minagi Mikoto (AndrewRogue)
7. Ishigami Wataru (Strago)
10. Senou Aoi (Kilgamayan)
11. Suzushiro Haruka (Xanth)
13. Higurashi Akane (Kiro)

It is now day 5! With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 07:52:37 AM by Carthrat »
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Excal

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #397 on: December 10, 2008, 07:51:25 AM »
All I know is, this is looking to be a very interesting after game report.  Anyways, given how Affinity got lynched, the only real thing to do is to wait to hear what our friendly cop has to say.

By the by, I didn't get attacked last night.

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #398 on: December 10, 2008, 07:55:44 AM »
I investigated Corwin last night.

SHIZURU!

IS!

SCUM!

... which means she is town.

I was not attacked last night.

##Vote: Kiro, reasons given yesterday, hasn't voted, etc.  Basically going down the list at this point.

(Q.  Hey!  If Kiro's the scummiest, why didn't you investigate him?
A. Somewhat irrational fear of something going wrong towards endgame.)

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Re: My-Hime Mafia
« Reply #399 on: December 10, 2008, 08:07:28 AM »
Fufufu~

##Vote: Kiro

See him much like Bardiche, posting content-wise. My view of Kiro hasn't changed in that regard. Also, LAL worked already for us.

And I can't shake the meta reason that someone who played mafia here a lot would try to kill those investigated and 'cleared', so it's either Alex using some weird ploy or, well, someone new to this board. And as long as Alex is assured to be lynched if he doesn't find scum as we reach LYLO, it's all good.

No worries, my vote is hardly driven by such tasteless metagaming calculations.

No attack on me, either.