Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 40

[Nephrite]

Ohoho... You all managed yet again. I will offer my congratulations to you once again...

Team Taishyr vs. Floor 3
Team Piggyman and Commander vs. Floor 2




Team Taishyr's Matches


Floor 4a: Reversal of Fortune (Midgame)

Let's see what happens when your reality is turned upside down? Hahahahaha...

*For this floor, all damage and healing is reversed. (Damage heals, heals damage) All status healing spells inflict that status at 100% (Including Life -> ID), all status-inflicting spells remove that status (ID -> Life) and all Buffs or debuffs do the opposite (Saner would reduce speed and evasion) These spells can be targetted at enemies or allies.
*All resources used for Healing are infinite, as well.

Battle #16: Fei and Billy

Fei: Let's go, Billy
Billy: Okay, Fei!

Battle #17: Rosa and Cecil

Rosa: Cecil! Don't worry, we can defeat them!
Cecil: Of course, my love.

Battle #18: Tir and Luc

Tir: ...
Luc: ...SAY SOMETHING!

Battle #19: Lulu, Garnet and Terra

Lulu: You will die here.
Garnet: My Eidolons will protect me...!
Terra: If I must fight, I shall.

Boss Battle #4: Yuna and Galcian

Yuna: I apologize, but I must stop you.
Galcian: You will never get past us...




Team Piggyman and Commander's Matches

Floor 3b: Multiples (Before Midgame)

So you want to try multiple foes? Let's see how you like this, then!

*All ST is MT for this floor. ALL of it.

Battle #11: Eirika

Eirika: I won't lose to you!

Battle #12: FFT Chemist, FFT Mediator and FFT Samurai

Chemist: We won't lose!
Mediator: That's right!
Samurai: Hiyah!

Battle #13: Auron and Tidus

Tidus: This is MY--
Auron: Enough!

Battle #14: Alice and Nina4

Alice: I won't give up... No matter what!
Nina: For my kingdom!

Boss Battle #3: Alma, Ramza and Zalbag

Alma: Let's go, brothers!
Ramza: All right, Alma!
Zalbag: Alma... I will not allow them to continue!




---------------------------------------------


Team Taishyr | Bartz, Rika, Crowley, Eiko
[Floor 4a]
[Bartz: Summoner (Unmastered) / X-Magic]
*For this floor, all damage and healing is reversed. All status healing spells inflict that status at 100% (Including Life -> ID), all status-inflicting spells remove that status (ID -> Life) and all Buffs or debuffs do the opposite (Saner would reduce speed and evasion) These spells can be targetted at enemies or allies.
*All resources normally used for Healing are infinite, as well.
Team Taishyr vs. Fei and Billy
Team Taishyr vs. Rosa and Cecil
Team Taishyr vs. Tir and Luc
Team Taishyr vs. Lulu, Garnet and Terra
Team Taishyr vs. Yuna and Galcian



Team Piggyman | Benjamin, Magus, Tidus, Robo
[Floor 3b]
*All ST is MT
Team Piggyman vs. Eirika
Team Piggyman vs. FFT Chemist, FFT Mediator and FFT Samurai
Team Piggyman vs. Auron and Tidus
Team Piggyman vs. Alice and Nina4
Team Piggyman vs. Alma, Ramza and Zalbag



Team Commander | Yuri2, Cloud, Juan, Bowser, Mime
[Floor 3b]
[Cloud: Restore (M), Transform (M), Revive (U)]
*All ST is MT
Team Commander vs. Eirika
Team Commander vs. FFT Chemist, FFT Mediator and FFT Samurai
Team Commander vs. Auron and Tidus
Team Commander vs. Alice and Nina4
Team Commander vs. Alma, Ramza and Zalbag

[Excal]

Well...  since Rika doesn't have ID on this floor, here's the question.  Are Eiko and Crowly both faster than Riou?  If not, I cannot see his party as having the equivalent of 2100+Mag Suikoden HP, which means that Forgiver Sign is, uhhh....  amusingly brutal.

[Taishyr]

Well...  since Rika doesn't have ID on this floor, here's the question.  Are Eiko and Crowly both faster than Riou?  If not, I cannot see his party as having the equivalent of 2100+Mag Suikoden HP, which means that Forgiver Sign is, uhhh....  amusingly brutal.

Uh.

Forgiver Sign- 2138, if full. ITD. If Riou is injured, it heals damage, and takes (2138 - damage healed).

Why am I hitting Riou to give him damage until I need to? (Since by the description in the stat topic, it would heal him while he's at full)

I'll make full commentary later, but Forgiver Sign's not a threat until I damage him, and I can one-shot him with anyone not named Rika, so, eh, yeah (Crowley L2 charge/Eiko Life/Bartz X-Magic Life). The gist of that fight is Rika Illusions/Saners (whichever), Tir does something and Riou damages someone, Crowley heals it and Eiko/Bartz nuke the remainder.

The main issue is the remaining two fights, which while I approve of the difficulty bump this floor has undergone I'm not sure my team fully likes. >_> But hey, reap sow cow and but how.

[Clear Tranquil]

What does Galcian do again? Is that one of the Fate Storm, Fate Storm, Fate Storm pimps? ;p

Team Commander passes easily in a style of glory due to SHC hax, Cloud and Mime. The Mime being able to mimic Yuri's arsenal or Cloud's material is just brutal. Yuri can have Amon, three or four L2 fusions, L1s and a Seal Drop for a L3 fusion of choice by this stage ;p Yeah. Hax.

Thinking on the others.

Jusing musing on Tai's fight.

Lulu is evil obviously and has to be dealt with. I was going to say Eiko's Life = ID > her but then I remembered Lulu has a DL legal piece of equipment with Deathproof ;o However she can't immune ID and Silence *both* at the same. Eiko's Esuna = cause all status effects. Apart from death Lulu is going to be hit with a bunch of nasty stuff. That should take her out of the game. Eiko goes before Lulu but the question is will Terra/Garnet kill Eiko before that stage >.>

I personally allow Auto Haste from Floor 4 though remind me again Neph do passive abilities still work normally? Or would Auto Haste be Auto Slow for this floor? >_>

Tai's team has bundles of healing from reversed damage moves, all Bartz's and Eiko's damage summons now heal the party instead of damaging the enemy and both Rika and Crowley (I think) have reserve ID for revival as well so he has the resources so it's not unfeasonable that he might just somehow manage to pull this floor off. Hmmm.

More thoughts tomorrow.

[SnowFire]

Re Riou: Well, he just casts Forgiver Sign on his own team (explicitly legal), and "heals" the opposition for basically the same effect as normal.  Though I guess it could be argued that the healing is not inherently MT, so it only nukes one person, or it gets spread among everyone equally?  That said, considering how fast Riou is, I suspect "insta-nuke opposing team" wasn't the intent of the floor anyway.   Hmm.

Re Piggyman: MTed Initiatived Haste is pretty awesome, so he tentatively looks good for this floor.

[Taishyr]

Yes, I'm not arguing that he can cast Forgiver Sign on his own team. But, unless I'm missing something, it lacks the "healing" properties until I hurt him.

And Rosa/Cecil? Crowley overkills Rosa, Cecil is no threat with his scant healing. I heal my own team up with physicals and move on. So I'm not going into the next fight with any damage, so Forgiver Sign should do pretty much nothing here.

-----

Only Rika has ID (and thus, revival) on this floor for me.

In the second-to-last fight, the order is Rika->Garnet->Crowley->Eiko->Terra (I think; she may be slower than Bartz, since FF5 speed isn't impressive as an indicator either way (but then again neither is FF6's so much))->Bartz->Lulu. So Garnet gets a go at my team; whether or not she hits my team after Illusion boosts my evasion is an interp call. Since I see at least the evasion/defense boosting/dropping parts of Saner/Illusion as triggering when cast, Garnet may have issues hitting me and from there Crowley and Eiko kinda waltz. Garnet arguably can kill Rika here, but after that Crowley and Eiko shut the enemy down hard (Crowley nukes Terra, Lulu eats status from Eiko, Bartz thus gets a turn and eliminates Garnet).


Galcian has ID and damage, which converts to healing and revival. He's also a boss, which means he has decent durability. This is why I'm not sure how well I do against these two; gut is Nina4 has to kill Bartz before he can Life/Cure2, which means Crowley gets to use his L4 and effectively nuke Nina4 from orbit with a shot of full-healing (and damage Galcian badly). I'd need to math this out and get a better grip on Galcian stats.

[Nephrite]

I personally allow Auto Haste from Floor 4 though remind me again Neph do passive abilities still work normally? Or would Auto Haste be Auto Slow for this floor? >_>

As Tai pointed out, Galcian has ID and he also has a dispel move, although I have no idea how helpful any positive SoA status could help here.

And yes, Auto Haste would be a terrible idea to equip here!

[Taishyr]

Galcian, looking at the stats, is also a slug, so my entire team would act before him, which he doesn't particularly like.

EDIT: snrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrk

[Nephrite]

I've made a modification to the 4a matches, as Riou apparently has status healing I was unaware of. I have changed it to Luc, whom you are free to vote on in whatever case you like.

[Taishyr]

Need to look at this again now, unsure how this shifts things.

Initial gutcheck is I still manage it (after a moment of despair) since Luc's HP, either form, really goddamn blows (55% Suikoden 1 wat). Rika's strongest healing should be able to knock him out (remember, it's scaled to where she is in-game, so it's pretty good healing, though not full, thanks to it coming off an initially pretty good base and not being solely stat-based), and from there Tir gets to try and play catchup.

I need to try and figure out what average HP is in PS4 at this point, as this tactic may also be useful in the fourth fight.

Quick edit: Assuming L20 (this may be far off but I'm also writing a paper right now so):
Mental 23+Gires Innate=103 healing. This... at L20 I'm kneejerking kills Luc (it murders Luc 1, Luc 3 it's borderline). Willing to hear arguments, but.

[superaielman]

Team Taishyr | Bartz, Rika, Crowley, Eiko
[Floor 4a]
[Bartz: Summoner (Unmastered) / X-Magic]
*For this floor, all damage and healing is reversed. All status healing spells inflict that status at 100% (Including Life -> ID), all status-inflicting spells remove that status (ID -> Life) and all Buffs or debuffs do the opposite (Saner would reduce speed and evasion) These spells can be targetted at enemies or allies.
*All resources normally used for Healing are infinite, as well.
Team Taishyr vs. Fei and Billy
Team Taishyr vs. Rosa and Cecil- Rika smashes Cecil, Rosa's handled by Crowley.
Team Taishyr vs. Tir and Luc- Luc OHKOs Rika. He may die afterward, but so does Rika.  Tir revives Luc if Rika somehow beats both him and Luc to the punch.
Team Taishyr vs. Lulu, Garnet and Terra- I think.
Team Taishyr vs. Nina4 and Galcian- Galcian Revolvers his team, making them both speedy tanks. Nina also can kill a person every round.

Tai has to have Rika survive the floor, andthat pretty much requires no enemy PC to ever get a turn. This isn't happening.
Team Commander vs. Eirika- So, so much splat.
Team Commander vs. FFT Chemist, FFT Mediator and FFT Samurai- Mediator may be faster than the rest of Cmdr's team, but her best skill (Invite) I see as explicitly DL illegal. CT-0 gets a few people, but there's too much offense on this team for it to be slowed down for long.
Team Commander vs. Auron and Tidus- status.
Team Commander vs. Alice and Nina4- Overwhelming offense.
Team Commander vs. Alma, Ramza and Zalbag- Transform locks Zalbag/Ramza/Alma into full status blocking mode. They have to block Cross Slash or else they lose, have to block transform. Alma Mbarriers, Bowser Fears (Effectively killing Mbarrier's defensive properties), Yuri/Cloud/Mime.. well, that probably kills everone but Alma, who can't solo the fight.

This floor tries to stall out Cmdr's team, an epically bad idea.
Team Piggyman | Benjamin, Magus, Tidus, Robo
[Floor 3b]
*All ST is MT
Team Piggyman vs. Eirika
Team Piggyman vs. FFT Chemist, FFT Mediator and FFT Samurai- FFT has to block slow here. It does no good anyway, Tidus Delay Hit and horrible things happen from there.
Team Piggyman vs. Auron and Tidus- Team>Enemies for absolute tiebreaks for me, removes any need for thought here.
Team Piggyman vs. Alice and Nina4- Blitzed.
Team Piggyman vs. Alma, Ramza and Zalbag- The key to winning this fight is killing Zalbag before he gets a turn. Tidus makes sure Piggy gets that turn.

As Tai pointed out, Galcian has ID and he also has a dispel move, although I have no idea how helpful any positive SoA status could help here.

Quika is double speed, the attack/defense buff is 1.25x. The regen is kind of crappy, would have to check. Galcian having full revival here puts a lot of pressure on Tai's team in general. They have to have Rika to have a prayer here, don't see that happening.

[Taishyr]

Main issue I'm seeing with that final fight is that Galcian doesn't get a turn to cover Nina4 with the buff, and I'm not sure he immediately doubles even with it. Bartz/Eiko or Crowley/Eiko's what's left after Nina4 nukes someone (assuming Rika dies, I'm not sure I even buy that on gut - Rika should be pretty much faster than either form and capable of barely killing him first (Luc -dies- if he chooses form 1. Form 3 has an argument but my gut is that the charge on average takes too long to go off compared to when everyone else can go, but respect both ways can vary).

Granted I've yet to math it out, but Galcian speed looks pretty miserable. 2x speed would help greatly but he's not doubling off the bat, which might be enough; durability looks... well, to me he's probably PCHP or so but I'm presuming he's fairly random in action selection in-game. The highest I could see him is 1.7 or so, and that's still getting weared down pretty quickly.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yeah, I don't see any reason why Tai and his party of healers can't just brutally one-round Galcian. I'm not sure exactly how people scale the healing<->damage, but if it's done literally as seems most common, then Galcian is getting 2HKOed I'd imagine. The only question is how badly Nina is raping the team with Vigour first; I don't recall if that was full or not.

[Taishyr]

Oh, right. I forgot to ask this.

How do people see FF5 Golem working on this floor? >_>

[ThePiggyman]

Team Taishyr, I have no idea on.  Lot's of arguments about it, so I think I'll hold back momentarily. Also gonna have to look at Galcian. Been awhile since I played SoA.

My teams passes. Eirikia's blitzed, simple as that. Initiative Haste lets my whole team kill the FFT group. Auron and Tidus aren't much trouble. Hasted Magus/Benjamin knock out one easily enough, then the other goes down. Alice and Nina are slaughtered before they can do anything even remotely threatening. My team can now manage to take out Zalbag before he starts wiping me out. The rest kill Alma, than Ramza. Oh, and if any damage does occur to my team that might of worry, Benjamin's got plenty of now-MT full Cures.

Team Commander passes. Cloud with Transform, Yuri2 and Mime make a mockery out of the whole floor.

[superaielman]

Yeah, I don't see any reason why Tai and his party of healers can't just brutally one-round Galcian. I'm not sure exactly how people scale the healing<->damage, but if it's done literally as seems most common, then Galcian is getting 2HKOed I'd imagine. The only question is how badly Nina is raping the team with Vigour first; I don't recall if that was full or not.

Doubt his team even gets to that point at remotely full shape. once Rika goes down the team really loses it's blitzing ability on top of revival.

Main issue I'm seeing with that final fight is that Galcian doesn't get a turn to cover Nina4 with the buff, and I'm not sure he immediately doubles even with it. Bartz/Eiko or Crowley/Eiko's what's left after Nina4 nukes someone (assuming Rika dies, I'm not sure I even buy that on gut - Rika should be pretty much faster than either form and capable of barely killing him first (Luc -dies- if he chooses form 1. Form 3 has an argument but my gut is that the charge on average takes too long to go off compared to when everyone else can go, but respect both ways can vary).

How exactly is Rika going to kill both PC's? Tir just revives Luc if she kills him, killing Tir does no good as Luc still goes and frags Rika.  You then have to beat the Terra/Garnet/Lulu fight after.  Crowley can only kill one of Terra/Garnet, the other just kills Bartz dead. And Lulu can still revive the other players.

[Taishyr]

Because Luc's got to get to his turn before casting anything and presuming that he revives with the CT he had on death seems rather odd, since most systems don't do that and I don't recall any proof that resurrected PCs in S1 got their action that turn? (And if we're talking S3 his charge time just got interrupted anyway, and he's not fast enough to go before Crowley/Eiko after dying and revival.)


To nail this point home a bit: Tir is 135% average. Let's assume that Luc's killed and then revived. He must be... about 3x average speed with whatever form/action he chooses to get in before Crowley or Eiko.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I could use some refreshing on how Mime works as I've never used one. More importantly, who exactly is Commander's Mime copying? Is his speed right behind Cloud's? If so, doesn't that make Mime just copy Status in this particular area? Can Mime stall his turn to go after one of his slower teammates? (I know Gogo could, but yeah, not sure about this Mimic command).

Just not getting all the Mime hype.

Regardless, even without Mime, I'd see Commander as smashing his floor, just not as badly.

Piggyman... eh, I'm not sure I buy this Tidus speed game/Magus blitzing strategy. And unless he has some ITE that I'm forgetting about, Eirika might even be a bit of a problem with the counters. I'd have to math it out. Bleh. Abstain for now.

Tai - passes with no problem to me, especially with Riou out of the picture.

-Djinn

[Dark Holy Elf]

Yeah, reviving someone slower than the person who killed him or her doesn't work.

Again, the boss comes entirely down to just how good Vigour is, I think. Yay stat topic not mentioning.

[Taishyr]

FF5 Mime's got two intepretations, as far as I'm concerned.

1) Average speed, losing tiebreaks. Averaging all classes that could be mastered and giving him the speed of that, if nothing else. This is what I take.

2) 90% average speed. This is taking him with zero jobs mastered ever period. In fairness, he's 95% for the first floor, but drops down to 90% from there.

In both cases he's likely mimicking Yuri; I think Cloud was a bit above and Bowser's slower than he is. So.

Granted, after Yuri morphs he's likely mimicking Cloud, but. Either way he's not copying Bowser. Juan's sleeping, so.

[Taishyr]

This being said, according to Meeple Nina4 gets Vigor which is full MT healing (also not mentioned in the stat topic, IIRC.)

So um. Yeah. Fun times!

EDIT: And, to set a record straight in advance, I was the one who suggested putting Nina4 in here as a boss, thinking she only had ST full healing. I did this mainly because the original floor was... well, it was a cakewalk in theory and pretty much in practice, and the reason most people chose this path. Galcian, admittedly, is a cute choice for "bosses's helper" here, and not something I had any influence in.

[Nephrite]

I am making another emergency change. Let this be a lesson to me to run floors by people in the future...  Nina4 is being replaced by Yuna. This should be the last change I need to make and it may not make a difference to the votes to some people but just in case, I am posting nonetheless.

[Taishyr]

Still believing that I pass (Looking over the S3 stat topic, I can't find myself respecting Luc's charge time at all; this assures Rika survival one more fight at a minimum, which is all the team needs).

[Clear Tranquil]

Lulu isn't doing squat. There's no way she's getting a turn, Eiko statuses her out before then. Lulu can only block death or silence not both and definitely not the bunch of other status effects Esuna causes.

How do people see FF5 Golem working on this floor? >_>

Increases damage taken from physical attacks irrc~

I don't know Djinn but Initiative MT haste does go a long way towards helping him out I think. Ben has MT Cure healing as well if needed.

[Bardiche]

Tai fails, rest pass.