Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 40

[dude789]

Tai fails, rest pass.

[Clear Tranquil]

Decided that both Tai and Piggyman pass in addition to Commander. See earlier post for Commander's vote -

Team Tai vs Dungeon- See arguments. Also Nina4 being changed to Yuna makes a big difference to me. Unlike Nina Yuna isn't status immune so if Eiko gets an Esuna off she's toast.

Team Piggy vs Dungeon - Being reminded of Ben having MT Cure for this floor synched it for me. That combined with the broked that is Initiative MT Haste sealed the deal.

[Random Consonant]

Team Taishyr...  Luc's faster than Rika (S1 Luc is only a point behind Tir, S2 Luc's speed is numerically higher, but the average is higher as well, but it's not a huge difference, Rika, meanwhile, is only about 125% speed to me at this point.  To add insult to injury, S2 Luc can take a Gires as well, dunno 'bout S3 Luc, though.), so Luc offs Rika.  Bartz then gets a turn and proceeds to off both of them.  Fourth fight... depends on whether Crowley goes before Garnet or not.  No clue where average S1 speed is at this point or where Crowley is in relation to it, so I'll say not.  Garnet offs Bartz and things proceed to go downhill from there.  Even if Crowley and Eiko make it out okay, Yuna's faster than both of them, offs Eiko, and now everything hinges on Crowley.

Yeah, the team requires too many calls in its favor for me to see it as passing.  The floor slowly claims it.

Team Piggyman passes easily enough, though.

[SnowFire]

Okay, fairly sure that Piggyman passes here.

Going to vote dungeon on Taishyr.  That floor is pretty brutal, in fairness.  Surprised when looking it up that Luc wants an earlier S1/2 form, due to the TWR lacking the cheap and fast casting full-heal.  Plus, I'm not certain that Crowley is faster than Garnet, and that would spell doom if Rika is already dead and can't speed buff/debuff.  The choice of Summoner is interesting for Carbuncle I suppose, which is pretty awesome whenever Bartz gets a turn and makes the team invincible...   but if Rika dies vs. Luc, and Crowley dies vs. Garnet, then Yuna will presumably off Eiko in the last match.  Shame, since if literally anyone was still left alive, they could probably force Yuna into a Dispel-lock while Tai's healer cleaned house.

For Team Commander...  uh, this isn't nearly as much of a walk as some people think it is.  Eirika goes first and doubles the entire team.  If either one of her attacks is a crit (her rate is apparently 14.6%), that's bye-bye to the whole team except maybe Bowser.  So call it a 25% chance of insta-lose.  But yes, after that Cloud transforms her, and if he misses than Mime tries again, and Yuri heals up.  (Though if both miss...  Juan will likely trigger counters before the team has time to heal and then everyone dies after all, but this is pretty rare.)   Don't know enough about the later fights, but some seem like they might be close, if say the Samurai can get off Death Sentence while Mediator / Chemist stall.  I suspect he probably passes, but hmm.

[DjinnAndTonic]

How does Reflect work on the Inverse Floor? If you cast it on the enemy does that make all spells directed at them ITE?

Does it work normally? Because if it does, then anytime Eiko uses Carbuncle, her entire team is now immune to damage (as 90% of the healing moves are spells, and thus reflect-able).

Personally, I would find it amusing if it caused all spells to be 'drawn' to the Reflect-afflicted person, despite their intended target.

-Djinn

[SnowFire]

I don't think there's any sane way to reverse Reflect, so I'd let it do its thing normally.

[Excal]

You tried, Tai.  But I can't see Rika taking out Luc in time.

Dungeon over Tai

Other two over Dungeon

[Clear Tranquil]

It's the opposite for me. There are just way too many things/options/resources going in Tai's favour for me to see his team going down so soon. Another thing how does Phoenix work on this floor - heals Tai's party IDs enemies? o_o

[Excal]

Eiko has Phoenix by the halfway point?  I thought for sure that came later.

[Clear Tranquil]

Phoenix is taught from a Phoenix Pinion. You can pick up a Phoenix Pinion as Vivi for the inventory at the very beginning of the game. There's really no reason for Tai not to have Phoenix Pinions in his inventory at this point. Even if one doesn't allow that Alexandria Pinion because too broke or whatever there is also a Phoenix Pinion in a chest in Eiko's house which is *before* Iafa Tree (i.e Carbuncle) If she has Carbuncle for Floor 4 she definitely has Phoenix. Yeah she practically gets Phoenix handed to her on a plate ;p

[Taishyr]

See CT. It's technically available, but some people don't like pickups unless they're plot or storebought so I didn't bring them up in my argument.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Phoenix is kinda hideously unreliable until you get lots and lots of Phoenix Pinions, I thought, so it'd be moot here.

(Actually I want to say it's pretty unreliable even with 99, but I forget the exact figure.)

EDIT: Wait, dur, you can cast Phoenix normally as well. Never mind me. Yeah, MT ID as soon as Eiko joins there. Granted... hmm. Late Disc 2 might be more of a Floor 4, I... really don't know.

[Taishyr]

Might've been? Though I thought that was just the Final Attack aspect. I just remember she gets some variant of Phoenix and it saved my ass twice since my team sucked at damage. >_>

I just remember Phoenix Pinions being way early, so.

EDIT: Okay, doing a check, it's both a summon and a Final Attack save-your-ass sort of thing.

No. of Phoenix Pinions / 258 * 100 = chance Phoenix will do the final attack.

Of course, since my team dies first the final attack's useless on this floor, unless you allow it to KO on the final fight. Even then, the odds of it kicking in are subpar.

This being said it has pretty much been available from the start if you allow the found items. Myself? I'm... shaky on them. >_>

[Clear Tranquil]

No. of Phoenix Pinions / 258 * 100 = chance Phoenix will do the final attack.

W/th 99 Phoenix Pinions 38.3% chance of Phoenix appearing if all party members = dead yeah.

Tai: >_> Does Eiko ever learn Phoenix then if people only allow plot/storeboughts? <_< I don't think anything else apart from pinions teaches it ... Rebirth Ring sounds like it would but probably doesn't!

I'd see it as bypassing boss ID immunity myself yeah but that's just me. Wouldn't matter anyway on account that your party would still be dead? >_>

[SnowFire]

Phoenix is cool and all, but I'm not sure it matters.  Taishyr already wins whenever average speed comes around even when I'd forgotten Phoenix and was assuming Life; Bartz can summon Carbuncle, Eiko can nuke with Life (and now nuke better with Phoenix), etc.  The problem is that the team lacks ID (I don't think FF5 Odin is legal yet), so Luc kills Rika, Garnet kills Crowley, and Yuna kills Eiko.  Even if Final Attack Phoenix kicks in on the final floor, Galcian is ID-immune, so it's not even a draw.

That said, Garnet and Crowley are really close in speed now that I look.  Let's say Crowley gets the drop.  Okay, Eiko cleans house and finishes the fight with Phoenix (though could Terra block ID?).  Yuna goes first and frags Crowley.  Eiko lifes Yuna, Bartz Carbuncles.  Galcian Eternums Yuna.  Yuna Dispels.  Eiko frags Yuna again.  Bartz resummons Carbuncle.  Galcian Eternums...  okay, but neither Yuna nor Galcian are running out of MP.  I guess you can argue that Galcian slowly gets outsped, but even when Eiko gets a turn, I think her healing will only 2HKO here, so Galcian can afford granting one double-turn.  Meanwhile Eiko & Bartz are spending MP like drunken sailors.

It's close.  That said this is only in the case where Crowley outspeeds Garnet anyway, so yeah, sticking with my vote.  But interesting match.

[DjinnAndTonic]

On this floor, Dispel would  cause all positive Stat Buffs... Even if you still see it as dropping Reflect, it means that Yuna just Hasted/Barriered/Protected Eiko and Bartz...

-Djinn

[Yakumo]

I wouldn't say Dispel would work that way here.  Status healing spells are specifically noted to inflict status instead, but buffs and debuffs just reverse their effect.  Dispel in itself is not a buff or debuff, so I would say it just does it's normal thing, and maybe inflicts status if it could heal them in-game.

[Nephrite]

I would simply say that if you allow Reflect to work normally, it is a bit unfair to say Dispel would not also work normally. However, this floor has a lot of strange interpretations (Ben's Life, for example) so I try and not think too hard about them.

[Dark Holy Elf]

If you see Dispel causing everything it normally removes, then it's worth noting it also inflicts a bunch of negative effects as well, namely all four Breaks and Curse. And Reflect. <_<

Speaking of which, I think either it works normally, or it doesn't remove Reflect since it's adding it instead. No clue which.

[DjinnAndTonic]

If you see Dispel causing everything it normally removes, then it's worth noting it also inflicts a bunch of negative effects as well, namely all four Breaks and Curse. And Reflect. <_<

Speaking of which, I think either it works normally, or it doesn't remove Reflect since it's adding it instead. No clue which.

Out of curiosity, are the Breaks all the exact and equal opposites of the Buffs? Or is it something like DefBreak is divide Def by 3 while Protect is multiply Def by 1.5? In which case, I'd apply both, with the net 'gain' being DefBreak (only reverse for this floor).

If they're equal and opposite, then there's obviously no net gain either way.

In either case... Dispel would -cause- Reflect and Curse status. (And I'd make Curse and Reflect be the method of reversing it). That seems sane.

-Djinn

[Dark Holy Elf]

Unless someone is really tanky, Protect/Shell are much more powerful than the defensive breaks. The defensive breaks set your Def to 0 (at which point you take hits about... I dunno, 25% harder than average maybe? I'd have to check), Protect/Shell halve damage. Although Protect/Shell don't work against everything defence does and vice versa in FFX, to be fair.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Unless someone is really tanky, Protect/Shell are much more powerful than the defensive breaks. The defensive breaks set your Def to 0 (at which point you take hits about... I dunno, 25% harder than average maybe? I'd have to check), Protect/Shell halve damage. Although Protect/Shell don't work against everything defence does and vice versa in FFX, to be fair.

Holy crap, that's  a headache. I suppose I would interpret that as... DefBreak sets your Def to maximum (whatever that is), while Protect/Shell double damage (assuming anyone can get past your now ludicrous defense...).

Alternately, depending on how sure you are about the 25% on DefBreaks, I can see just causing it to increase Def by 25%.

Ugh, if it turns out that Protect/Shell -are- that much better than the Breaks, then Yuna might want to just Dispel them regardless of Reflect...

-Djinn

[SnowFire]

I don't see how this matters even a little bit.  Speed matters, sure, but I presume Haste and Slow cancel.  The Protect / Shell is utterly irrelevant unless for some reason Eiko needs healing, and then Bartz's physical will heal LESS.  Oh noes.  Also agree that if you see Dispel is reversing itself, then it probably adds Reflect so that Yuna doesn't cast it in the first place.  In that case Yuna has Reflect herself (though she almost never wants to use it) and you presumably see that as reversed such that it removes Reflect.  So she just uses that instead.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I don't see how this matters even a little bit.  Speed matters, sure, but I presume Haste and Slow cancel.  The Protect / Shell is utterly irrelevant unless for some reason Eiko needs healing, and then Bartz's physical will heal LESS.  Oh noes.  Also agree that if you see Dispel is reversing itself, then it probably adds Reflect so that Yuna doesn't cast it in the first place.  In that case Yuna has Reflect herself (though she almost never wants to use it) and you presumably see that as reversed such that it removes Reflect.  So she just uses that instead.

It mattered back when I wasn't sure how to take Reflect on this floor, so I assumed it worked normally. However, since Dispel has pretty obvious healing effects (and if Esuna CAUSES all status effects, then it made sense that Dispel would CAUSE all statbuffs) and it was an integral part of Yuna's anti-Phoenix strategy (according to you), then I figured that these extra effects would matter for your overall assessment of the match (like Haste).

But thanks to Elfboy's more accurate description of Dispel, I changed my view of how Reflect and Dispel would work on this crazy, mixed-up floor.

That's why it -was- relevent. Now it's just whether or not Yuna wants to use Reflect herself!

-Djinn

[Yakumo]

Well, like I said earlier, it really didn't matter either way.  The rules of the floor are that status healing instead inflicts status, yes, but the same thing does -not- apply to stat breaks or buffs.  If someone uses a stat break or buff on this floor, the effect is reversed.  Dispel does not apply any stat buffs or stat breaks normally, it merely removes any that were already there, so there was never anything to reverse.  Dispel can be argued as healing status, and as such could apply them like Esuna, but Dispel would not add any stat buffs or breaks to any characters on this floor.