Author Topic: NR season 11 Week 5  (Read 3206 times)

superaielman

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NR season 11 Week 5
« on: December 23, 2008, 04:19:17 PM »

Godlike    

Emperor (FF2) vs Elwen (RS)
Aya (PE) vs PolisPolice (CC)
Vayne (FF12) vs Nyarlathotep (Pers2)
Varin (DDS) vs A-Tur (BoF4)

Heavy:
Phoebe (FFMQ) vs Shiva (FFX)
Heckran (CT) vs Klein (AI1)
Augus (BoF2) vs Wizard (FFT)
Cathari (S5) vs Clarissa (WA:XF)

Middle:

Knight (FFT) vs Carol (WA5)
Cube (LaL) vs Cupid (BoF5)
Norn (AI1) vs Alouette (LP:T)
Harley (DDS1) vs Jessica (MK)

Light:

Shiki (TWEWY) vs Chansey (PKMN)
Regigigas (PKMN) vs Goofy (KH)
Dean (WA5) vs Shuzer (Saga)
Samson (BtB) vs Elincia (FE9)
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<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

superaielman

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2008, 04:20:39 PM »

Godlike   

Aya (PE) vs PolisPolice (CC)- Don't think Liberate OHKOs.
Varin (DDS) vs A-Tur (BoF4)- A-Tur's best was physical I think. That rarely works out well against Varin.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
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Pyro

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2008, 07:19:04 PM »
Godlike   

Emperor (FF2) vs Elwen (RS): I don't remember Emperor well enough for this.
Varin (DDS) vs A-Tur (BoF4): I... suppose? Not too sure here but I seem to recall A-tur just being tough. Cold Breath?

Heavy:
Phoebe (FFMQ) vs Shiva (FFX): The Aeon crushes all, blah blah blah.
Heckran (CT) vs Klein (AI1): Yeah no.
Augus (BoF2) vs Wizard (FFT): Fucking smash.
Cathari (S5) vs Clarissa (WA:XF): Clarissa is a poor Light against people faster than her. ;_;

Middle:

Knight (FFT) vs Carol (WA5): Don't think Knight has a problem here.
Cube (LaL) vs Cupid (BoF5): ...
Norn (AI1) vs Alouette (LP:T): Maiden of Light: Now in mint flavor.
Harley (DDS1) vs Jessica (MK): Healing and enough of it.

Light:

Samson (BtB) vs Elincia (FE9): I think I'll just cosplay Tal here and hype Stun!?

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2008, 09:26:41 PM »
Godlike   

Varin (DDS) vs A-Tur (BoF4): A-Tur's breath attacks are powerful and his magic serviceable, and he has a large durability advantage.

Heavy:
Augus (BoF2) vs Wizard (FFT): Probably one-rounds with Save Strength attack. Survives two Flares anyway. Upgrade?
Cathari (S5) vs Clarissa (WA:XF): Clarissa really hates people faster than her. Cathari 2HKOs her and nukes her damage, so... Cathari's own bad durability might make this a contest, but I doubt it.

Middle:

Knight (FFT) vs Carol (WA5): Knight's breaks are largely useless here. Carol will have half his HP gone before he can land a break, which really doesn't slow him down much, and while Life Drain's healing is overrated it can keep up with Knight damage respectably.

Light:

Not being able to vote on this is so tragic.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Monkeyfinger

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2008, 10:43:03 PM »
Godlike   

Varin (DDS) vs A-Tur (BoF4): Similar damage, A-Tur is tougher but goes last... wait, damage is only similar when A-Tur's at full HP. As he takes damage his own offenses falls apart. And considering how hard both these guys hit (at first)...

Heavy:
Augus (BoF2) vs Wizard (FFT)

Middle:

Harley (DDS1) vs Jessica (MK): DDS character vs. healer who hits his weakness, I shouldn't have to spell this out.

Pyro

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2008, 10:49:49 PM »
Keep in mind Rob Turn doesn't work on someone faster than her, NEB. (She doesn't take 2 turns because of it)

So yes, Clarissa is well and truly screwed against anyone faster than her.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2008, 01:04:35 AM »
Shiki vs. Chansey: Chansey is not particularly fast, probably 3HKOs Shiki, and has 50% healing for 10 turns.
Shiki should be able to use her Lv1 Limit by turn 2, effectively allowing her to 2HKO Chansey. Even assuming Chansey goes first, Shiki wins this by heal-locking Chansey until either Chansey runs out of healing or until Shiki builds up to her Lv2 or Lv3 Limit, whichever comes first.

I can vote on other things, but TWEWY and Pokemon just seemed like the most interesting.

VySaika

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2008, 02:12:26 AM »
Godlike   

Emperor (FF2) vs Elwen (RS) - Kneejerk.
Aya (PE) vs PolisPolice (CC) - Aya needs to OHKO, doesn't manage it.
Vayne (FF12) vs Nyarlathotep (Pers2)
Varin (DDS) vs A-Tur (BoF4) - Going with Monkey on this one. Good fight either way.

Heavy:
Phoebe (FFMQ) vs Shiva (FFX) - Kneejerk.
Heckran (CT) vs Klein (AI1)
Augus (BoF2) vs Wizard (FFT) - Yeah, splatters.
Cathari (S5) vs Clarissa (WA:XF)

Middle:

Knight (FFT) vs Carol (WA5)
Cube (LaL) vs Cupid (BoF5) - I think? Pretty sure, anyway.
Norn (AI1) vs Alouette (LP:T)
Harley (DDS1) vs Jessica (MK)- Haven't beaten MK, but played enough toknow how this goes.

Light:

Shiki (TWEWY) vs Chansey (PKMN)
Regigigas (PKMN) vs Goofy (KH) - I...I don't know. Any pokemon freaks wanna break this one down?
Dean (WA5) vs Shuzer (Saga)
Samson (BtB) vs Elincia (FE9)
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Taishyr

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2008, 03:12:01 AM »
Godlike   

Varin (DDS) vs A-Tur (BoF4) - Yep.

Heavy:
Phoebe (FFMQ) vs Shiva (FFX) - Uh-huh.
Augus (BoF2) vs Wizard (FFT) - Yeah.

Middle:

Harley (DDS1) vs Jessica (MK) - Can't vote yet, but timed card healing, even if bad, shouldn't be bad enough for this?

Light:

Shiki (TWEWY) vs Chansey (PKMN) - I need to look up Chansey.



Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2008, 03:24:04 AM »
Godlike   

Aya (PE) vs PolisPolice (CC) - I buy the OHKO.
Varin (DDS) vs A-Tur (BoF4) - Varin can come back when he's not barely above PC HP under my books.

Heavy:

Phoebe (FFMQ) vs Shiva (FFX) - Kneejerk, unless Phoebe's armor -immunes- Ice. Shiva really fails at damaging Phoebe, but the opposite is also true, and she's a lot faster and runs off similar resources.
Augus (BoF2) vs Wizard (FFT) - boom.

Middle:

Harley (DDS1) vs Jessica (MK) - Harley is pretty poor a Middle, and timed healing is just overkill against a 4HKOer anyway. >_>
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RadLink5

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2008, 05:28:41 AM »
I agree with TWEWY vs Pokemon being the most interesting.

Shiki's damage is pathetic no matter what form or interpretation you use, so Chansey just wails on Shiki and heals when necessary until Shiki falls. I don't allow the fusions for the partners, but even if you do, Shiki would need to last long enough to get a level three fusion to take Chansey down in one-hit, and I don't think I see that happening.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2008, 06:38:57 AM »
My thought on Shiki's Fusion is to treat it like a Limit, since the Fusions are in no way affected by Neku.

Shiki can access her Lv1 Fusion reliably by Turn 2, and arguably by Turn 1. I don't think her Lv1 Fusion overkills, but one round of her physical chain , plus a second round of her physical chain+Lv1 Fusion is pretty damaging. Enough that I can see it being a pretty reliable 2HKO in Light.

From her second turn on, she can pull out a physicalchain->Lv1Fusion whenever she wants. This just means she needs two turns without Chansey healing to finish it off. In four more turns, she can have her Lv2 Fusion, and eight more turns will see her to a Lv3, which should OHKO Chansey at full health, though honestly, I'd bet that the Lv2 is enough.

My reasoning is that Limits are not reliable damage, they are going to be OPB 90% of the time. Even in a three-turn average, only Shiki gets her Fusion early enough to effect the average. If you throw out Neku, this makes her damage pretty decent. If you allow Neku his pin set of broken, then yes, her damage is pretty lousy, but her Fusion lets her be at least a little competitive. My personal view is to only allow storebought pins and their evolutions (which is still pretty broken, but somewhat reasonable) and hold Neku's damage to amount of damage that a single pin can do in one attack (generally this means until its usage bar is depleted, but some pins have forced pauses between attacks that cannot combo together). I do not allow Neku to combo separate pins together.

It's a somewhat artificial way of comparing Neku to the Partners, but considering that the Partners operate on a completely different battle system from Neku, it seems like a fair way to compare them. For example, Neku's enemies move much faster than a Partner character's enemies, so it seems wrong to try to force both battle systems to compare the same amount of damage by time. So I try not to think of them in damage per second, which seems to be the popular method. Instead, I enforce a Tales-like combo limit on Neku's damage, and consider him somewhat fast. The Partner characters are held to a more Tales/ChronoCross hybrid system where they are allowed to follow a panel chain to its logical finisher panel to attempt to build up their Fusion gauge, and consider that a single turn, along with considering them about average speed, though possibly a little slow compared to Neku. Since Fusions activate instantly, I considering them as being tacked onto the end of a turn once a Partner character builds up the appropriate amount and decides to use it, somewhat similar to how Chrono Cross Elements tended to be used (and Eternal Sonata's special moves, but no one plays that).

I still seriously do not understand the view for Partner Characters not getting their Fusions, since it is only a Flavor-based argument, and if you're using Flavor-based arguments to prevent characters from using their Fusions, then you're pretty much holed into not allowing the TWEWY characters to do -anything- since the game is pretty explicit in the plot that nearly ALL of their abilities are tied to their partnerships (except Joshua, but yeah). It's like... why are you picking on Fusions as illegal? It's one of the only things that makes the Partner characters interesting, too...

/rant

EDIT:
I have a question about how people view damage and averages for single-PC RPGs like Parasite Eve (and I suppose Ys, Crisis Core, and Zelda could be considered as well).

My instinct is to consider all stats as average... And to possibly view average damage as the average of what each individual damaging skill can do, which would create an artificial damage curve where the character's best damage is always decently above average. A little unfair, but when you consider that Aya can't use her best damage but maybe once in a battle, it evens out. (I believe the same applies to Link, Adol, and Zack too.)

Which reminds me: Tonfa! Stat topic Ys Origin and include Ys6 Adol!

-Djinn
« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 06:52:39 AM by DjinnAndTonic »

Talaysen

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2008, 10:59:53 AM »
I have a question about how people view damage and averages for single-PC RPGs like Parasite Eve (and I suppose Ys, Crisis Core, and Zelda could be considered as well).

Same way we do for any other RPG, really.

RadLink5

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2008, 08:18:21 PM »
First, unless I'm mistaken, Neku actually IS involved in the Fusion's mechanics as far as damage goes. Also Fusions have a lot to do with Sync, which fluctuates depending on how you feed Neku and the partner. It's all really complicated, and since plotwise Neku actually has the pin allowing fusion attacks, it seems best to just throw it out. Unless someone can find the exact mechanics for Fusions and it turns out Neku's not involved.

Also you're wrong about only Shiki getting her fusions fast enough. Joshua gets his just as fast. Beat's the only one who has any trouble getting fusions.

For single-PC RPGs, everyone usually views it exactly the same as any other RPG. Put the character(s) into a damage average, multiply the average by 2.5 for kill point. So this means single-PC PCs always have 2.5xPCHP and usually have to rely on some other trick like status. I think a few people may just take the PCs damage against random encounters though.

Edit: I looked around, and yes, Neku is directly involved in the damage. Sync isn't involved however. So I guess if you wanted to totally ignore Neku's plot and statistical relevence to the fusions, you could just consider Neku's attack to be 0 in the formula, which makes the fusions a lot less impressive (except Joshua's level 3 fusion which has a base attack power of 99.99). If you're wondering what Shiki's level 3 fusion damage looks like without Neku, it's 960 to a 1645 kill point. So yeah, not terribly good depending on which defense you see Fusions hitting. Seems to make more sense to see Fusions hitting Magic resistance rather than Physical, which would make Shiki's fusion rather useless here.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2008, 08:40:59 PM by RadLink5 »

Talaysen

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2008, 12:22:42 AM »
Most combo attacks in games use both the participants' damage/stats in the formula, just like TWEWY.  We don't allow those either, so I see no reason why we should here.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2008, 04:50:55 AM »
Edit: I looked around, and yes, Neku is directly involved in the damage. Sync isn't involved however. So I guess if you wanted to totally ignore Neku's plot and statistical relevence to the fusions, you could just consider Neku's attack to be 0 in the formula, which makes the fusions a lot less impressive (except Joshua's level 3 fusion which has a base attack power of 99.99). If you're wondering what Shiki's level 3 fusion damage looks like without Neku, it's 960 to a 1645 kill point. So yeah, not terribly good depending on which defense you see Fusions hitting. Seems to make more sense to see Fusions hitting Magic resistance rather than Physical, which would make Shiki's fusion rather useless here.

This sounds blatantly wrong from the tests I've done. Fusions hit enemies for different damage amounts on the separate screens. This is blatantly obvious.

For example, if Shiki's attack is 22 and Neku's is 35, then doing Shiki's Lv2 Fusion (a 1000% multiplier) will deal 220 damage to enemies on the top half of the screen and do 350 damage to enemies on the lower half of the screen. I don't see how much more obviously separate this could be?

Also, arguably since the Fusions are Neutral-typed, they could be considered ITD, and probably should be since they are oftentimes the only way to deal significant damage to high-defense enemies (most enemies have 0 defense, BTW).

Gameplaywise, the Fusions are tied inextricably to the Partner characters - only the Partners can build up the necessary Stars to use the Fusions, and each partner has his/her own unique Fusions. Neku's just there to be the guy holding the Pin, like EVERYTHING in TWEWY's Flavor - "Thou must have a partner to do shit".

And yeah, I guess if you allow Joshua the Angel Feather then he can get his Fusion by turn 2, also. Beat is turn 4 at best. (Luckily for Beat, he has non-Fusion damage options).

Also, nearly all of the Fusions have 100% Status attached to them. Too bad most TWEWY Status sucks.

Here, I did some testing:

Fusions                                                               Eff%
Beat lv.1   Teleport attack barrage      DefBreak                   1000%
Beat lv.2   Chain-skate attack         Immobilize           2000%
Beat lv.3   Tidal wave surfing         HPDrain                   3000%
Shiki lv.1   Teleport attack barrage      AtkBreak                   500%
Shiki lv.2   SuperMew Punch         Immobilize           1000%
Shiki lv.3   GodzillaMew Eyebeams                            2000%
Joshua lv.1   Telekinetic summoning barrage -Immobilizes   500%
Joshua lv.2   Fire and Ice Rain                                 1500%
Joshua lv.3   Meteor Drop                                    10000%

-Djinn
« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 04:57:33 AM by DjinnAndTonic »

RadLink5

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2008, 06:49:41 AM »
I can see your argument, but the fact that activating the fusion prompts Neku to attack to still makes me iffy about seeing it as a solo skill. It doesn't really matter this match though since Shiki's level three fusion's lackluster damage doesn't fare well against Chansey's really high HP, and immobilize doesn't help much unless I'm wrong about it wearing off after one-hit. Also Shiki only gets like 25% healing from it if I remember correctly (not counting the extra ~25% Neku's half of the fusion restores, that's too generous).

It's a battle of ridiculously low damage. Chansey's got tanky HP with healing, Shiki's got average stats with 6HKO damage and a 2HKO fusion, I just don't see how Shiki puts Chansey or even makes Chansey run out of healing. Meanwhile on the flipside, Shiki's own less effective healing can only be used, at most, every four turns plus one turn for every time she uses it. This can't keep up with Chansey's damage in what will likely be a very long slugfest.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2008, 07:46:22 AM »
Especially if Shiki's big damage is seen as ITD,  which is definetely not the way to take down Chansey at all. That said, if Shiki's normal damage is physical and 6HKOs, then it about 3HKOs Chansey, and Chansey's healing is only 50%. So if Shiki can block Sleep, she might just be able to keep the pressure on.
...into the nightfall.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: NR season 11 Week 5
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2008, 10:49:08 AM »
Especially if Shiki's big damage is seen as ITD,  which is definetely not the way to take down Chansey at all. That said, if Shiki's normal damage is physical and 6HKOs, then it about 3HKOs Chansey, and Chansey's healing is only 50%. So if Shiki can block Sleep, she might just be able to keep the pressure on.
It's a battle of ridiculously low damage. Chansey's got tanky HP with healing, Shiki's got average stats with 6HKO damage and a 2HKO fusion, I just don't see how Shiki puts Chansey or even makes Chansey run out of healing.

Shiki has a 3HKO physical here... so after the first turn, she's done about 1/3 of the necessary damage? On her second turn, she starts by doing her physical chain (another 1/3 of necessary damage) and at that point she'll have enough stars to finish her turn with a Fusion (that 2HKOs, so roughly 1/2 of the total necessary damage, right?). This should be more than enough to kill Chansey. Sounds like Shiki's Heal-locking since she only needs 2 turns without healing to defeat Chansey.

I can see your argument, but the fact that activating the fusion prompts Neku to attack to still makes me iffy about seeing it as a solo skill.

This is understandable, but considering that the nature of the game always has the two party members attacking different enemies simultaneously anyway, it doesn't seem like a very strong counter-argument. Still, it is the strongest (and only mechanics-based) argument I've heard so far.

-Djinn