Discworld Mafia is go!

[Shale]

On Susan: She also bends time and space, can both TALK THE TALK and STALK THE STALK like her granddad, and has on multiple occasions been called in by the metaphysical forces of the universe to do Death's job when he gets distracted. I find it hard to believe Susan would be pure vanilla, but she could be a backup for Death if he's in the game.

[Strago]

If so, is it possible that we want to call for a roleclaim from Death? I'm not saying we definitely do, but... if there is one out there, I would think that makes Fnorder look a bit better. Then again, it might not. This talk of role backups is all quite speculative, I suppose. Bleh, but then Scum could kill hypothetical Death tonight and Susan tomorrow before she even gets a chance to use whatever her inherited power is, so even in this hypothetical situation Death probably ought to remain silent.

Okay, looking back over past posts, am I the only one who doesn't fully understand the Excal votes? Maybe I'm just being a dunderhead, but if someone could cite some instances of why they think he's scummy maybe I could get a better read on the current situation in general. I'd particularly like Fnorder's reasoning, since - as I said before - that vote currently looks like a retaliatory strike. I'm not at all sure Excal's town, myself, but he seems like a slightly odd target. I guess I'll go through his content again myself, too.

[Shale]

That's not what I meant to do at all. I'm just saying that I can't see Susan as pure vanilla, but I could see how she could be currently vanilla.

[Strago]

Yeah, I wasn't saying that was your suggestion. I was more or less just thinking out loud on the subject.

[Corwin]

Interesting background info. Might come in handy later.

The more I think about it, the more I want to give incentive for Otter to talk. Since I'm going to bed, I'll leave a vote on him and see what it nets when I get to work tomorrow. Two votes (myself and Strago) should be enough to gain his interest, seems like.

##Vote: Otter

[Ranmilia]

Votecount:

Excal (2): Otter, Fnorder, Carthrat
Fnorder (3): Shale, Excal, Carthrat, Corwin
Strago (1): Taishyr
Otter (2): Strago, Corwin

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

There are 15 hours to the deadline.

[Excal]

Fnorder, that's a very nice catch you've made, except for one small flaw.  The mistake I made was in regards to what Cranbud's revelation meant in regards to Sopko/Otter.  And I am slowly coming around to agree with Strago that it very much could be a wild attempt at trying to drag information out of us from a lost cause.

Where I was not contradicted, was where I noticed you claiming knowledge that you could not possibly have as town.  And you've said nothing to dispute that claim, or even suggest that I'm mistaken in it.  Merely that you feel that I'd be the best choice for a vote regardless of whether or not I had already voted for you.  And...  that's it.

Fnorder, I've given two posts with reasons to vote for you, over two days.  This isn't exactly like a bolt from the blue, whatever you may think.  Whereas you've given no indication of which way you're going to jump, even after you've already acted.  And instead of talking about people, your latest rants have been going on about role speculation.  Something which it's already theorised that the scum are trying to unobtrusively dig out.  Could your own roleclaim be a way of trying to dig out Death, if he is indeed here?

So, let's hear it.  Is there some reason that you feel compelled to vote for me?  Or is this simply because there's a vote on me already, mixed in with a bit of OMGUS and suspicion?  As well, I'll give you the same advice I gave Tom.  If you're actually town, your best defense isn't to save yourself.  It's to try and root out the scum, to try and dig out arguments and help the people who survive you win.

[Mad Fnorder]

People ask me to talk, and then they ask me to explain. I do so... and I keep getting asked to explain.

Excal, I voted for you because your vote for me seemed badly placed. You weren't first, you were getting on board with an analysis that wasn't that strong. It's as strong a flinch as I've seen, in my twisted opinion.

The origin of my "mysterious knowledge" was a hunch. Cranbud picked a side in a fight early on, without much discussion or prompting. Rereading it, I said to myself, "this seems like he knows SOMETHING". Thus me downplaying him in my analysis- if he was a cop, I didn't want to be like, "Hey, dood, R you leik a cop or sumthing?" As I explained before, at the time, it didn't occur to me that he could be a scum investigator.

Lastly, my role discussion was at Corwin's request, him not being that familiar with Discworld lore.

Also, frankly, it's very slightly frustrating that the idea of playing a good townie being, when you look suspicious, to write out a will of dying thoughts and lay down in front of a train. Both you and Corwin have lectured me for being "too defensive". Well, a good deal of the discussion has been ABOUT me being so nasty scummy. And as opposed to other conversations that I've been quiet on, I DO have an opinion because I know my alignment 100% as town.

If my tone comes off as harsh, I apologize, it isn't my intent. I have class now.

[Excal]

Fnorder, I think I'm the last person to talk about harsh at the moment.

As for my quote, the basis of my attack on you.  That was a quote from today, Day 4.  That's something where you say you were justified in your hunch that he had knowledge of VSM or Kilga's role, after he claimed scum role cop, yes.  But also after he claimed that he never touched anyone related to that scuffle.  Your hunch on Day 3, I can accept, even on Day 2.  And your reactions are alright there.  It's the quote after the fact, on day 4 that seems to be contradictory to what we know, and what you're saying.

As for the game philosophy discussion.  Going after other people isn't laying down and dying.  It's trying to find a case that's worse than yours.  It's essentially saying that here's someone that deserves lynching more than you.  Because, if you're town, there is someone who deserves lynching more than you, and you need to try and find those clues that help you know who that person is.

[Shale]

. Both you and Corwin have lectured me for being "too defensive". Well, a good deal of the discussion has been ABOUT me being so nasty scummy. And as opposed to other conversations that I've been quiet on, I DO have an opinion because I know my alignment 100% as town.

See, that's a big part of the problem. Playing town involves ferreting out scum even when they're not accusing you directly. Especially, then, in fact. Sure, you're never going to be as sure of anything else as you are of your own alignment, but just because you might be wrong is no reason not to make an argument.

[Veryslightlymad]

Aren't you the guy who uses Hatbot over his own gut?

[Shale]

Gut yes, evidence no. Evidence I'm fine with.

[Strago]

Man, I hate when the deadline falls in the morning. It just makes the day shorter, for most intents and purposes. We really need to start honing in on something, right about now. And at the moment my gut says Fnorder's just a hapless townie, but I've got no way of really explaining why objectively. To try and develop my instinct regarding Otter, though, let me point out something that I think has been kept relatively out of the spotlight, unless my memory is just way off: Otter was very conspicuously absent - even moreso than Cranbud or Shale, I think - from the decision to lynch Nitori. Otter just had a vote sitting on Corwin that never went anywhere and that he's... never really expounded on after those events. And honestly, if Otter's absent enough that he could potentially be lynched in the next few hours having said nothing about it, isn't he guilty of more or less the same thing we're hammering Fnorder for? I'd like to see some others besides Corwin weigh in more substantially here.

Grah. VSM, what are your thoughts right about now? After all, you really ought to use that doublevote of yours eventually, so I'm curious about where you plan on setting it down.

[Carthrat]

I refuse to believe themed analysis is actually helpful at all. As far as themes go, you can make up *any* justification for character x to have role y, including total subversions of what the character is about. I don't see it helping us at all, and I'd prefer it remained outside real discussion. I find willingness to subscribe to this train of thought dangerous and odd.

Gut telling you Fnorder's a helpless townie: I understand this feeling; the problem is none of the signs up until quite recently seem to point to him being on the side of good. His current activeness is alright, though I'm kind of miffed that.. he's miffed over what townies should do before they die.

Ngh. Otter's absence is also a sucker for getting votes. I feel like I've been giving him extra chances due to his previous play all game. At this point in time, I'd be comfortable lynching either of these people.

[Kilgamayan]

##Vote: Mad Fnorder

Your posts today seem to indicate that you are more interested in surviving than winning (your one post that focused on someone other than you saw a "leaning town" or "iuno" for everyone except one person, which isn't terribly helpful or even hard to feign), and the post Excal pointed out is hard to ignore.

I know I've been quiet today since my roleclaim. I do have other thoughts on other things, but given I may use my roleblock tonight, I'd rather not give anyone the chance to second guess me.

[Mad Fnorder]

I am a Townie. Obviously if I could fling myself on someone I knew was Scum and valiantly give my life for the cause, I would.  By not getting myself lynched, I both divert the lynch onto potential scum, and remain alive to outweigh the scum.

I'm done.

[Veryslightlymad]

Fnorder is starting to feel like he's not playing to well, more than he is playing Scum.

My decision..... well, I don't much like this one, but my best guess right now is Excal. I'm mostly uncomfortable, because I'm not sure how much I can trust Otter OR Fnorder. My main reasoning is that it seems more likely than not that someone who kept the 5 votes on me on Day 2, even after I professed multivoting, is likely a scum. I'm not saying it's 100% likely, but it seems.... more likely. Maybe risking 3 scum at once is bad, but two, they could probably get away with. Nitori was one. We know CK is town. I know I'm town. Kilga had the best CASE against me. Right now, he sort of feels like he's going after the weakest possible townie. Otter's in his LAL mode, and my feel from him right now is simply that he's not paying too much attention to the game. I have no strong opinions on Shale one way or the other, which may also be a problem.

Anyhow, my vote leads to FOUR, which is dangerous territory. I guess now begets the tedious prospect of scanning all of Excal's record and posts. Argh.

##VOTE: Excal

[Sierra]

Update!

Excal (4): Anonymous, Otter, Fnorder, Carthrat, VSM
Fnorder (4): Shale, Excal, Carthrat, Corwin, Kilgamayan
Strago (1): Taishyr
Otter (2): Strago, Corwin

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

There are 10.25 hours to the deadline.

[Carthrat]

I am confused. Why are you voting Excal, VSM? Have you mentioned suspicions of him somewhere previously that I've missed? It seems odd to vote for someone and then look for a case on them rather than the other way around.

[Veryslightlymad]

I didn't vote and then look for a case. I made a case and then voted. Like I said, I don't LIKE it. But.... really, who are the scum here? What's the scummiest action.

We've got a collection of what amounts to various degrees of lurkers, myself included, and the only thing we really have is vote records. And, as I said in my post, I'm convinced there was probably one other scum against me. They had the means to win that round without too much sacrifice. I think they'd have tried.

Excal.... his arguments aren't lining up that great for me. I'm pressured for a vote, apparently, and if I have to pick, this is my pick. Unless someone can come up with a case that's more suspect than just "Lurkish"

[Carthrat]

Hmm, mind pointing out where in your post you've put your case against Excal? I see you talking about lots of other people, but I might have missed it.

[Shale]

I am a Townie. Obviously if I could fling myself on someone I knew was Scum and valiantly give my life for the cause, I would.  By not getting myself lynched, I both divert the lynch onto potential scum, and remain alive to outweigh the scum.

ARGH. That is not the point. You can't just wait patiently until you suddenly know someone is scum, you have to work it out. Look for contradictions and bad-faith arguments and push them. You haven't been doing that. You've been largely inactive unless you're pressed to defend yourself, and then you pretty much confine your comments to your own defense. And no, you can't make up for that with a spurt of activity when you're under the gun, because anyone who's a couple of votes from hammer is expected to get defensive, town or scum. It doesn't prove anything.

[Taishyr]

From what I can tell, his vote for Excal is based on...

My main reasoning is that it seems more likely than not that someone who kept the 5 votes on me on Day 2, even after I professed multivoting, is likely a scum.

##Unvote: Strago. He speaks. Keep speaking!
##Vote: Otter. Charges? Day 1 lurking. Okay, so you were gone, I can understand that. Your silence has also been quite long today; the vote on Excal... is still over the vote on VSM, which Excal already responded to and you failed to reply about. You had a small spasm of posts at the beginning of day 3... some posts in day 2 of worth, but... bah. I can understand having a life, but then there is the accusation of Excal for the VSM vote, as well as "sliding under your radar". It's easy to say, may even be true, but coming from you? Mrf. I... yeah, this isn't adding up. Again, speak. If you're town, you're seriously not helping out here. Aside from day 2, there has been little of anything coming from you aside from an offensive on Excal, and that worries me even more, the more I think about it.

In short: general lurking, more focus issues than what I have (one person - Excal - has earned the crowning focus from you, and while you mention others it mainly seems to be in passing; the only other focus you put on anyone at any point was in asking Bobbin Cranbud why he voted for Kilgamayan).

[Taishyr]

Woo, vague. First part of my post is to Carthrat re: VSM's vote for Excal.

[Strago]

Anything else in particular you'd like to hear from me, Tai? Not being facetious, I'm honestly curious. At the moment I'm a bit stumped as to how to proceed, so maybe some more input from you (or others) would help me get an idea of where to look next. I'm certainly interested in what Sopko's going to do whenever he gets around to casting his vote, but for the moment we're completely split with not very much time left at all. Bleh.