Author Topic: DIE SUPER!!! - G'morning, 2009! (Read 248727 times)

Shale · « **Reply #3200 on:** November 16, 2009, 11:35:07 PM »

I think it's an argument for more specific attribution of each author's contributions, personally. If I'm just there to check the structure or verify one particular experiment, I shouldn't have to check every result to make sure I won't be sanctioned later because somebody else is a jackass. I should be accountable if I'm supposed to verify the part that ended up being fake.

Hunter Sopko · « **Reply #3201 on:** November 16, 2009, 11:45:13 PM »

Fire them all, let God pay their unemployment.

Luther Lansfeld · « **Reply #3202 on:** November 16, 2009, 11:50:49 PM »

To be fair, an editor for a science journal is a bit different. It goes through a peer review process where the paper is evaluated for a few criteria. No one actually edits the text itself (some journals may but I don't think many do) but rather just do a cursory test of how well it meets their criteria. There will be a biologist, a chemist, a physicist, as well as a couple of editor-type people who make sure that it is not a horribly written embarrassment with bad English. In theory, having a panel of scientists should help get a lot of the frauds out, but in practice each field is just so vast that there is no way that one scientist from the field could easily pick up on the error.

Grefter · « **Reply #3203 on:** November 17, 2009, 07:47:23 AM »

It gets a bit more amazingly strange when you take into account that the posted studies were accurate if I am reading that right? Not the first time I have heard this either, it is a case of someone taking such a strong stance on their research and the implications that they are prepared to lie to get it out there. I can sympathize with this assuming that this is largely because they do not have the funding to do such things (or in my known case it was because there just is not a large enough body in the world to feasibly get a truly sufficient set of subjects under the best of circumstances let alone the ones that needed to volunteer). While the findings turn out to be correct, it really is horrible science and the people do deserve to be punished, but assuming your find is big enough? I think it is bad science but if it really is something you are passionate enough about it to lie to the scientific community I don't really think it is explicitly unethical (It can be used as kind of a Scientific suicide bomb, it certainly is an effective way to draw a lot of attention to your theories).

The case I know of was involving Twin Studies and just getting viable pairs of Twins is incredibly hard, getting them to play along is even harder. It was really essentially a set of Case Studies presented as far more wide ranging which is... bad scientific method to say the least, but sadly nigh unavoidable at times in Psychology when dealing with some fairly exotic cases.

It comes down to it that scientific method has no inherent Ethics, that is up to people apply. Is it Unethical by default to break scientific method? Not really. Is lying unethical? Most of the time, yeah it is going to be. Are there times the net worth is there to be unethical? Certainly. It is up to each individual to decide when that is worth it.

Now whether associated Scientists should be punished for the paper because they are failing to uphold scientific methodology? Assuming they had some kind of accountability over the actual experiments involved? Absolutely. Do I think a review board may find it more ethical to overlook such things? Absolutely. Ethics is not science and publishing is not science.

NotMiki · « **Reply #3204 on:** November 17, 2009, 08:25:36 AM »

I think this is more a question of the role of editors than it is direct ethics. Basically, are editors there to catch people lying, or to guarantee that the papers they publish are not deficient? Given that checking papers rigorously enough to detect a high percentage of frauds costs time and money, and could seriously delay or permanently bar the publishing of some legitimate but tricky-to-verify work, how much checking is enough? Essentially, how honest should editors assume scientists are?

Grefter · « **Reply #3205 on:** November 17, 2009, 09:14:52 AM »

Like Ciato said though, that is the entire purpose of the Peer Review process is to do that fact checking. Readability editting is left up to the person submitting the paper in this case mostly (Because hey THIS is where the journal's are spending their money! The fact checking!). The entire peer review process is the only reason the scientific community can accept citations and establish works based off of other people's research. You do a science degree and you cite an article that isn't peer reviewed and you are just throwing away your marks. You do a science degree and you cite a poorly written article that IS peer reviewed and no one really cares overly much.

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #3206 on:** November 17, 2009, 02:48:33 PM »

So... this just arrived in my email a bit ago and I'm completely taken by surprise.

Quote

hi, how are you doing today?.i am really sorry to bother you with this email but i just want you to know what i am facing right now.i am sorry that i didn't inform you about my traveling to London UK for a seminar,i am presently in London now but unfortunately for me i lost my wallet in a taxi where my money and other valuable things were kept.i will like you to assist me with a loan of $2000 or whatever you can afford urgently to sort-out my hotel bills and get myself back home.i promise i will pay you back as soon as i return.Kindly let me know if you can be of help so that i can send you the details you will use to send the money to me here in London.any assistance you can offer will be greatly appreciated. alyne (lastname omitted).

So... I know this girl sort of. I met her first year of university and she hung out with our group for a few months. And every time she saw me in the halls, she'd say hi. One time, she let me borrow some cheezy horror flicks.

This does -not- constitute a friendship where I can just lend $2000 out at the drop of a hat.

I feel kind of bad though. Back in college, I think she had a crush on me, but I was dating someone else at the time (and I wouldn't be interested anyway... She's... Well, do you know Dane Cook's "Karen" joke? She's Karen.) And I'm kind of worried that if she's sending this to -me-, someone who she hung out with for less than a year at university, there's really no one who will help her out...

Ugh. I'm going to sleep so I can stop caring about other people's problems...

Clear Tranquil · « **Reply #3207 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:06:41 PM »

Eh you -do not- go to another country without insurance and other back up plans in case of crap occuring. If this girl's serious then I'm lost for words but I'm smelling BS here similiar to usual scammy emails that do the rounds. Somebody else could have gotten a hold of her name and email. Don't touch it Djinn, don't touchhh et! Don't touch anything that says plz send me XXX monies with a ten foot barge pole!

(and what kind of hotel costs £1000+ >_>)

Shale · « **Reply #3208 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:07:52 PM »

Can you fine her another $2,000 for writing like that?

DjinnAndTonic · « **Reply #3209 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:11:36 PM »

Yeah, the mail -does- sound really scam-y, but from what I know of this girl... it might just be her... >.>;; If it was anyone else, I'd be more skeptical, but if this is a scam, they picked the perfect disguise. >.>;;

Shale · « **Reply #3210 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:17:23 PM »

Just because it's her doesn't mean it's not a scam.

Luther Lansfeld · « **Reply #3211 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:19:24 PM »

As much as you may want to help her, that's definitely not the kind of money you want to shell out period, so I wouldn't fret over it.

Clear Tranquil · « **Reply #3212 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:29:34 PM »

Indeed.

There are support networks in the UK, social security, etc for a person in trouble too and if this really is the real deal then this girl will seek them out (and really again you should -always- have a fairly rough idea of who/where to go for help incase of crap happening before travelling anywhere)

Good one Shale >_>

Bardiche · « **Reply #3213 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:42:12 PM »

Quote

Ugh. I'm going to sleep so I can stop caring about other people's problems...

Really though, I wouldn't give others a loan of $2,000 if a) I hardly know 'em and b) they've already proven they are careless with their money.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #3214 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:55:09 PM »

Quote from: Shale on November 17, 2009, 03:07:52 PM

Can you fine her another $2,000 for writing like that?

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Luther Lansfeld · « **Reply #3215 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:58:41 PM »

Quote from: Grefter on November 17, 2009, 09:14:52 AM

Like Ciato said though, that is the entire purpose of the Peer Review process is to do that fact checking. Readability editting is left up to the person submitting the paper in this case mostly (Because hey THIS is where the journal's are spending their money! The fact checking!). The entire peer review process is the only reason the scientific community can accept citations and establish works based off of other people's research. You do a science degree and you cite an article that isn't peer reviewed and you are just throwing away your marks. You do a science degree and you cite a poorly written article that IS peer reviewed and no one really cares overly much.

The thing is that it looks TERRIBLE for the journals who publish and get fooled by false work.

What this guy did was basically said that Buckyballs (which are a pretty hot science field) had superconductivity at significantly higher temperatures than anything else ever seen. The truth of it is that they do have a higher-than-average superconductivity temperature, but not 60 degrees higher than anything else ever discovered or anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Hendrik_Sch%C3%B6n

As a side note, the keeping laboratory notebooks mentioned in the article thing is a bigger deal than one might think; it's basically your line of defense against such claims if your institution is ever audited or something dangerous happened in your lab. Not keeping them is a really heavy blow against him.

Shale · « **Reply #3216 on:** November 17, 2009, 04:21:39 PM »

Graaaaah. This job-hunt thing is really starting to sink into a vicious cycle. I can't get an interview anywhere, which makes me keep spending more time trying to get my applications straight instead of working at the job that pays my bills, which makes me stressed when deadlines come around, which makes me hate my job more, which makes me even more emo about not being able to find a new one.

Somebody just give me a billion dollars already.

Luther Lansfeld · « **Reply #3217 on:** November 17, 2009, 04:31:58 PM »

*hugs* Total suckage. ;_;

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #3218 on:** November 17, 2009, 04:42:51 PM »

Quote from: Shale on November 17, 2009, 04:21:39 PM

Graaaaah. This job-hunt thing is really starting to sink into a vicious cycle. I can't get an interview anywhere, which makes me keep spending more time trying to get my applications straight instead of working at the job that pays my bills, which makes me stressed when deadlines come around, which makes me hate my job more, which makes me even more emo about not being able to find a new one.

Somebody just give me a billion dollars already.

Yeah, the job-hunting rut is really painful (especially when the interview rotation is already crazy slow). It can get even worse if you don't have a job, thus no way to pay bills, but the stress that the whole thing induces is just awful. Just hang tight, though - as long as you're not frozen and inarticulate, you can keep things moving to a degree. And you might want to reconsider whether the issue is with your applications in order to at least reduce the stress a bit. Companies often discard perfectly -good- applications for no reason related to their quality.

Cotigo · « **Reply #3219 on:** November 17, 2009, 07:34:42 PM »

The important thing is to not get frustrated and just give up, even for a day. That starts a whole new boulder rolling and makes everything work. Best of luck. It is going to suck for a while though I imagine.

Jo'ou Ranbu · « **Reply #3220 on:** November 17, 2009, 07:53:15 PM »

It inevitably does - the market demand is about a couple million light-years slower than our anxieties and our wishes. >_> It's even worse when you're unemployed yourself - it gives you all the time and all the guilt to get a nice shiny katamari with all the darkest thoughts in the world rolling into a crash towards your psyche.

* Jo'ou Ranbu waves to the two years he spent practically unemployed.

NotMiki · « **Reply #3221 on:** November 17, 2009, 08:04:11 PM »

Djinn, one word of advice: never, ever lend money to anybody if you aren't prepared to never see that money again. Not saying you should or shouldn't, but don't go into it with any expectation of it returning.

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #3222 on:** November 17, 2009, 08:11:38 PM »

I'm generally on board with the people saying that that email seems really scammy, whether you know the girl or not. Who flies to another country without having already dealt with things like paying for a plane ticket back, especially if she was just going for a seminar. Also, what would she pay you back with? It's not like she couldn't call her own bank and have them wire money already in her account over.

AndrewRogue · « **Reply #3223 on:** November 17, 2009, 08:13:31 PM »

Quote from: Shale on November 17, 2009, 04:21:39 PM

Graaaaah. This job-hunt thing is really starting to sink into a vicious cycle. I can't get an interview anywhere, which makes me keep spending more time trying to get my applications straight instead of working at the job that pays my bills, which makes me stressed when deadlines come around, which makes me hate my job more, which makes me even more emo about not being able to find a new one.

Somebody just give me a billion dollars already.

Thus why I am just tanking the pain that comes with this job I hate so much for the moment. >_>

Cotigo · « **Reply #3224 on:** November 17, 2009, 08:18:47 PM »

Bah, Djinn post that I didn't respond do.

Speaking from experience here, there's only two conclusions:

1. Your acquaintance fucked up, bad.
2. It's a scam.

See, the thing is, I had $5000 dollars saved up, a $2000 dollar scholarship, a $1500 loan, and a ton of parental assistance when I flew abroad. I almost didn't get into the country, because the customs official at Heathrow thought I would have been a financial drain on England because I came a month before my course started at UEA. And, frankly, had I gone a month later when my course started, I would have had more than enough money to get by. It doesn't sound like your friend did that whole bumming around for a month thing, either.

I don't imagine that your friend had an easier time than I. Heathrow customs officials are a wad of cunts, but they do one thing right for this sort of thing, and that's making sure you're not going to be homeless before you come into the country. There's absolutely no way that your acquaintance would have run out of money without A) spending far, far, FAR above her means, in which case she needs to learn her lesson, or B) it not actually happening and you're being lied to.

No matter how much empathy you may feel, there's no logical reason to help her out, much less waste your energy thinking about this.

----

Quote from: Jo'ou Ranbu on November 17, 2009, 07:53:15 PM

It inevitably does - the market demand is about a couple million light-years slower than our anxieties and our wishes. >_> It's even worse when you're unemployed yourself - it gives you all the time and all the guilt to get a nice shiny katamari with all the darkest thoughts in the world rolling into a crash towards your psyche.

* Jo'ou Ranbu waves to the two years he spent practically unemployed.

Incidentally, I spent a lot of my year and a half (when not doing odd jobs on Craigslist/extorting money to edit papers) playing Katamari. So, uh, what an appropriate analogy. Or something.

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Author Topic: DIE SUPER!!! - G'morning, 2009! (Read 248727 times)

Bardiche