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Author Topic: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.  (Read 686315 times)

SageAcrin

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3700 on: July 25, 2009, 07:25:38 AM »
Mmm. May as well make my own VPDS comments.

I'm on C3 right now(Just finished the pitifully annoying Rosea A route battle.).

My reactions seem to between the top and bottom on this.

On the one hand, Sin is a conceptually very VP system that rewards positioning and strategizing into a single fast kill. One could argue that this makes maps too long, certainly...but there's around 25? maps in the game and the game is, by and large, designed around the concept that an SRPG battle is basically a small VP dungeon. Thought of that way, it's pretty reasonably done, although, as a matter of preference, some people just aren't going to like a slower SRPG system. I admit, my last SRPG was one who good endings you for finishing fast(SRW@3), so obviously the slower pace was jarring. But, within it, there's plenty of things to *do* with the slower pace, at least later(Various buff items for harder maps, Guard/Might/Spell Reinforce) and Dash helps with space closure problems(Admittedly the AP cost is there. But...+3 Move basically just makes it Accel except in a game where it matters more, for more of a cost. It comes out ahead.).

However, I dislike Sin's trappings. There were parts of it that made things unecessarily long. You have to move people around annoyingly to chip because the game neither allows you to stop a combo in the middle(in a game whose system allows for easy chipping with one start button press!), nor does it allow you to attack with only X amount of people when they're in range. This wastes time and makes it easier to fuck up. Slow pace is one thing, wasting my time is quite another.

The thing is, outside of Sin, I have no real complaints with the gameplay, by and large. That Rosea map is fucking stupid. The early maps suffer from a smaller party, but I can only complain a little there about the game waiting two maps (real) maps to give you a full party. But, ignoring that? Generally there's plenty of maps that feel like they're not rolling over and dying, that they're giving me great challenge, despite me doing my level best to break the game, abuse slower tactics, and generally work optimally for raw smashing strategy rather than for a speed/survivability/damage blend. I don't say people have to like this system, but it's just another preferential thing, not really a flaw.

Rewarding speed's cool and all, but in a short game built around a lot of ideas that would be hard to implement with speed(Sin, team combo from range in general. FM4 implemented the latter. Guess what? It's not fast no matter how hard you try.). There's just some ideas that you can't really pair up with speed. I mean, okay, it'd be nice if the game had some kind of secondary reward system for speed over Sin but that's just a feature implementation lack. It'd be nice if the game had a real fast reset too(I can excuse the lack of a real mid-battle save. No soft reset though? Man that's just not nice when I'm trying for 200% Sin in every fight.).

AP as a system...AP by and large is not a big deal, as the skills it uses tend to be more ephemeral strategy elements than they are actual boosts to a fight. Sure, you can abuse WAY OF REGENERATION or something and take fifteen years to heal or you can just cast Heal. Or throw items. And neither should really consume enough AP to matter. And if the regen didn't exist, these would be balanced horribly badly and would need to be completely overhauled. Really, if you think of it like VP1 items and VP2 spells combined(That is, free items and small nuisance value cost for spells that doesn't counter balance them.), it feels more reasonable.

Pluming as an idea is really a much more interesting form of Transfer. I don't see how you can *possibly* complain about it over VP1's worthless version and VP2's "lol aftergame twinking lol" crap. Certainly, it could be faster as an instant win button, but it still is one, and again, see the "Small dungeon more than SRPG map" feel I feel the game gives off for why I don't really think that's too unreasonable. There's only so much you can do with the skills(Which tend to not be layerable due to massive AP costs), and you game over if you overly abuse it for battle skip, in such a way that you can't get stuck from what I gather(Until the final chapter...which has too many fights to Plume through all of them.). It's one of the most unmitigatedly positive ideas about the game...gameplaywise. As a plot thing, I don't know how I feel about it being linked to which path you're currently on.

Aesthetically, the game *is* ugly, relative to VP.  It's saddening. It also ripped off VP1 for all it's music. Which is a better idea.

I have no real idea about the story yet because yeah random political intrigues that feel like filler until the game hits a last chapter where you actually follow the damn plot. Granted, knowing that C5 is like a third of the game and has logical plot-related final battles may be giving me a false impression. We'll see! This does not give me the best of impressions of the plot conceptually, admittedly, but VP1 was no better. Replace politics with demons, and add somewhat better/less character work. Demons are cooler, but I'm not going to say it's a big deal here.
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Niu

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3701 on: July 25, 2009, 07:32:40 AM »
Elf, you can only unlock Seraphic Gate if you beat all endings, so you might as well do them all anyway.

... Thank you for telling me. Now I should be able to beat it at least, although the fact that FOX FLARE OHKOs me at L1 makes me not want to try it at a low level.

Have your upper screen do nothing but to destroy the ghost tattoos. It takes 9 ghost tattoos for it to launch Mega Flare. Have Neku do the fighting and Josh do the cleaning.

Excal

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3702 on: July 25, 2009, 08:51:42 AM »
Niu, the Elf is playing my copy, which means that the Seraphic Gate is already unlocked.

Elf, the final chapter, and final battle in each path takes the political story elements that have been going on so far (well, starting with Chapter 3) and then expands on them with the theme of the story arc.  You've wound up with the worst one for actually illustrating this with the mid game, since the other two are a little more coherant with their transitions (though, I do recall 3 -> 4 generally always being a little jarring).

So, yeah.  My recommendation is also to stay on your current path.

Niu

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3703 on: July 25, 2009, 08:58:36 AM »
The transition is slightly better in route A, due to Fauxnel.

Hunter Sopko

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3704 on: July 25, 2009, 12:38:38 PM »
P3- 11/5. ... ... wow. This got dumb fast. October was a big stretch of boring and then this... wow. I don't even...

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3705 on: July 25, 2009, 12:45:51 PM »
P3- 11/5. ... ... wow. This got dumb fast. October was a big stretch of boring and then this... wow. I don't even...

Welcome to P3 plot. It am trainwreck. Lategame pacing is also special. How did you like the Scooby Doo plot twist!?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 01:04:30 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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Fudozukushi

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3706 on: July 25, 2009, 01:27:00 PM »
P3- 11/5. ... ... wow. This got dumb fast. October was a big stretch of boring and then this... wow. I don't even...

Welcome to P3 plot. It am trainwreck. Lategame pacing is also special. How did you like the Scooby Doo plot twist!?

Scooby Doo twists are brilliant.

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3707 on: July 25, 2009, 02:09:28 PM »
MP3 - Finished the Fire portion of Bryyo. Good stuff, and I've managed to poke my nose into a lot of little things that have gotten me plenty of Missile Expansions. The regular enemies on Bryyo are a pain - the wasp things that you have to lasso are particular offenders - but the Pirates have been fun opponents mostly. The highlight of the battles on Bryyo has been Dark Rundas though. Exactly what I want from small bosses in a Metroid game - he moves quick, almost too quick to shoot when being Iceman. His attacks are... evadable, but you have to actually try at it, and the ice flail/bomb is something like 40 damage on a direct hit, which is just balls this early in the game. Non-annoying use of the grapple lasso gets some bonus points. Went Corrupt during the fight, but the damage from Hypermode when used at the right time is pretty sick against him, and I probably managed to avoid a few attack cycles by just going all out with it at the end. So, second really big boss beaten in one try.

Then I got ship missiles, and Pirates started swarming the planet, so things are picking up with some more explosions and less getting more missiles for now. Hypermode Pirates are the stuff of much hatred.
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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3708 on: July 25, 2009, 02:44:11 PM »
Is it wrong that I want to replay ToV even though just finished it last week or so? That I want to completely and utterly pig out on it?

a) Replay ToV!

b) Get P4 bum!

c) Replay SO4 for the stat topic bum!

d) Follow your heart!
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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3709 on: July 25, 2009, 02:46:15 PM »
Is it wrong that I want to replay ToV even though just finished it last week or so? That I want to completely and utterly pig out on it?

a) Replay ToV!

b) Get P4 bum!

c) Replay SO4 for the stat topic bum!

d) Follow your heart!

I replayed P4 after just having beaten it. Go with whatever floats your boat, although you should still get P4, you lazy bum.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3710 on: July 25, 2009, 06:51:20 PM »
I vote replay ToV. This time, master Judy's ridiculous air combos~

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3711 on: July 25, 2009, 08:16:01 PM »
SoA: No sound, but I'm playing it anyway. Figured I'd just do what I did when I got tired of hearing FF1&2 and make the soundtrack Beethoven instead. Anyway, just had the first ship battle. Game seems fun enough.

Too bad, SoA at least has a few fairly decent tracks!
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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3712 on: July 25, 2009, 09:25:08 PM »
EBA - Welp, unlocked Kahn! Beat Kaizo Jack Flash in like five tries. Shale is going to kill me now.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3713 on: July 25, 2009, 09:38:42 PM »
RIght, I forgot to complain about the fact that your only ability to control combo damage once you initiate a fight is whether or not you Soul Crush.

Past that, hope nobody minds some GameFAQs style responses, since discussion is good, and hey, I'm still forming my own opinion. Didn't think I was past Sage in the game though. Huh.

AP as a system...AP by and large is not a big deal

Agreed. Didn't really mean to make it sound otherwise. AP itself is pretty cool. It's a bit less cool when you remember you can turtle to fully restore it since enemies don't attack you. This bothers me more than it is an objective terrible flaw in the game.. it's really no different from support abuse in FE. I just find the presence of either as strategies distasteful. You should never be rewarded for sitting on your ass in a SRPG.

Pluming as an idea is really a much more interesting form of Transfer.

If you mean the fact that you get a cool skill out of it, then sure, I'd agree... but that's not where my issue with it comes in.

Transfer didn't act as an instant win button... okay maybe VP2's came close, but VP1 was nothing of the sort. You gave up a character, according to specifications, in order to continue receiving money and rewards from Odin. (Never mind the game's underlying goal involved perverting this.) Nothing about this equated to "instant win" or even close (an extra Ether Scepter and Might Reinforce tome is cool and all, but hardly game-breaking). I don't like instant win buttons much conceptually, and if you're going to have them, they should at least work quickly. If I Wyrm Hortensia she's finished in seconds. If I plume someone I have to sit through a farce of a battle in which both my victory and my maxed sin gauge are already assured. It's about as exciting as a 12-battle chain fight against Shadow Makers.

It also means that comments like this...

they're giving me great challenge, despite me doing my level best to break the game, abuse slower tactics, and generally work optimally for raw smashing strategy rather than for a speed/survivability/damage blend

... don't really hold water for me. I've faced one challenging battle (largely due to the fact that it included a Realmstalker), and ever since then I've had the ability to MT paralyse the battlefield for 3 turns, so challenge isn't really there for the most part. (Never mind that broken revival and stupid enemy AI hamstring challenge generally.) Now, granted, if your goal is to get the A ending first playthrough, there may be some good challenge to be had. Of course, at this point, you're also completely ignoring the plume system, with all its merits or lack thereof.



... anyway.

VPDS - At Chapter 5 now. My dudes half all damage; Chapter 4 and the first battle of 5 all got badly steamrolled. Despite my misgivings about the game I'm pretty interested to see how the story falls out.

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Shale

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3714 on: July 25, 2009, 09:55:54 PM »
Okay, now I'm done Crisis Core. Got Heike's Soul, was amused by the name of the ability it gives you, nothing left to do but New Game + and I've done enough merciless smashing of overmatched enemies by catching up on old missions. Next up: Back to KH2!
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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3715 on: July 26, 2009, 01:54:46 AM »
Rented DMC4. It's a pretty good game, but not nearly as good as 1 or 3. Also, why the fuck can I only play as Dante for seven stages?

Shale

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3716 on: July 26, 2009, 01:57:36 AM »
Because you were originally not going to play as Dante at all, and they shoehorned him in late in development.
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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3717 on: July 26, 2009, 02:48:36 AM »
That would have been an even bigger pile of bullshit. Nero is too goddamn serious for a game with such goofy writing.

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3718 on: July 26, 2009, 03:03:08 AM »
May as well ask now: Piastol is an optional boss, I gather? She's not permanently missable or anything, is she?

Brief aside: Commander King is wrong, Piastol is permanently missable.  You have to fail pretty epicly, though, as she only becomes unavailable once the final dungeon has appeared and if you haven't even started her subplot.  Skies of Arcadia is a loooooooong game, so this basically should only happen if you totally ignore going back to earlier areas or just somehow miss the clue entirely.

Friend of mine managed to miss her permanently this way.  I'm not sure how he managed it.

FF6! Spent a lot of time in a car recently and didn't need to drive, so that usually means I play some GBA game. I'm up to Thamasa. Fake ending's still good, but I found myself mentally replacing Edgar's line about using his manly charms on a palace servant to discover the Empire's evil plan with:

"I'm getting really tired of this, Locke. Every time this adventure's in trouble someone is like 'Oh, help us! Where's Edgar, he'll fuck our way out!'"

Actually vaguely relevant, as I'm in the same area in FF6 Eviltype.  Eh, the fake ending never entirely did it for me.  I'm generally willing to give FF6 a fairly long leash for not having much memory space, and thus being unable to fit much more plot / explanations in...  but ultimately, for the whole last part of the WoB to make sense, Kefka needs to acquire godlike power in a very narrow time period.  Remember, the Espers burn Vector so thoroughly there's nothing for the Returners to do when they arrive.  Presumably if Kefka / Geshtal could have stopped them then and gotten some Magicite, they would have.  Furthermore, it can somewhat safely be assumed that if there was any serious target of their anger, it'd be the Magitek Research Facility.  And Cid isn't even working for them anymore!  So, in the time it takes for Terra & Locke to go to Thamasa (3 days?) the Empire switches from "helpless against the Espers" to "Kefka effortlessly defeats all of them at once."  Granted, this means that the plot can continue, yay, but it felt kind of arbitrary to uber up Kefka so fast.  (I suppose you can argue that once the Empire knew Magicite was the key, they gave a bunch to Kefka?  But they knew that before...  and it's kind of implied that the Espers you save were the only ones in the Magitek Factory...  and they still have no Cid.  Eh.)

Not a big deal, but something that always kinda bugged me.  Eviltype is still interesting.  Most of the early bosses were still not really problems, but the difficulty is definitely climbing now that Esper broken is go.  Kefka's cranes were pretty difficult and I wiped on them twice.  Just had to blitz more, I supose.  Surround attack by Balloons in the the Thamasa house was complete death no matter what, so the magic of Save State said that never happened.  Flameeater was surprisingly nasty with his Safe->Reflect combo.  Eventually figured out that summoning ZoneSeek made everyone much less likely to die, and destroying Flameeater's MP made his Fire2 counters a non-issue.  On the Floating Continent....  Gigantos destroyed me twice, even after I in desperation Imped him to see what would work as the party was dying.  Imp->Golem was still not enough the second time, as he flattened me.  Finally, Golem->Imp->cast Safe on everyone -> cast Bio -> let him die of poison basically worked and got around his crazy triple-counters.  Good fight (and thank god for Save States to restart the fight from the start, rather than the entire FC).

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3719 on: July 26, 2009, 03:04:44 AM »
Eh, Nero has his fair share of witty dialog, or attempt at it.  He does have a sense of humor, at very least, you can't argue that.  See his scenes with Berial and Agnus.  Comparing him to Dante...not fair; whose going NOT going to look serious next to Dante?  Its like saying Nero isn't as bad ass as Dante.

We discussed this in chat, and personally, I agree that DMC4 would have been better if they had just had separated Dante and Nero's campaigns.  Think what they did in DMC2, except without any of DMC2's issues.  DMC4 was set up in a way that that could have worked, and you wouldn't even need the "Nero gets kidnapped" bullshit that forced Dante to be playable.

Edit: And...Snowfire, regarding FF6?

Keep in mind that Gestahl and Kefka were clearly just rusing their way, trying to get the Espers guards down.  Bare in mind that the reasons the Espers were so weak was cause Kefka somehow cast a spell that basically neutralized all their powers (they don't explain this well admittedly); he wasn't OBSCENELY POWERFUL there.

Its true FF6 didn't explain it much, but I think you're assuming a few factors FF6 doesn't want us to assume.  Again, bare in mind that Kefka didn't kill Leo out of pure power; it was out of deceit and treachery.  You know "Get Leo's guard down -> Stab in back" type.  The Empire was probably NOT as defenseless against the Espers as we were INITIALLY led to believe, but rather, they pretended to be in order to get them when their guard is down.  Not the first time they pulled a gambit like this (that is the reason they stopped chasing Terra after all; Kefka openly admits that's the reason.)  

The Kefka vs. Espers scenario, in any event, is closer to the Wizard of Karma Tower vs. Nina/Soldiers scenario.  Less "Kefka is that powerful", more "Had the right tools to deal with them."  After all, Ryu1 in BoF1 wasn't particularly powerful at that moment, but he still gave the Wizard a nice trashing, cause the WIzard's trump card, the Poison, has no effect on Non-Winged Races.  Is it hard to believe Kefka had a similar trick up his sleeve?

And no, actually, it *NOT* implied thoise were the only Espers in the Factory.  If anything, the game implies the reverse.  Remember the guy in Tzen?  He says he got Seraphim from Magitek Factory.  That's likely where Zoneseek and Golem came from as well.  Typical scenario if "just cause you don't see it doesn't mean its not there/didn't happen."
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 03:11:38 AM by Meeplelard »
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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3720 on: July 26, 2009, 03:48:20 AM »
Quote
Now, granted, if your goal is to get the A ending first playthrough, there may be some good challenge to be had. Of course, at this point, you're also completely ignoring the plume system, with all its merits or lack thereof.

Yeah, I can't argue the psyduck dichotomy there. On the one hand, the game can be hard if you go for A ending first try, but on the other hand that requires ignoring a feature completely. The game has some weird issues, and this is definitely one.

Mmmm. You're right that Pluming should probably have killed things faster as an instant win button, I just have a hard time seeing how it can. It's like getting Freya for a dungeon in VP1 was. She was cool and made it completely impossible to lose, but that dungeon wasn't any shorter. VP system just sorta conflicts.
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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3721 on: July 26, 2009, 03:59:12 AM »
Is pluming anything other than an instant-win button? Because if not I can definitely see ignoring it for the entire game, assuming the game is any good.
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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3722 on: July 26, 2009, 04:12:44 AM »
Pluming has several effects.  It gives the plumed character 10x base stats for the rest of the fight.  They permanently die afterwards.  It also immediately fills your Sin guage, which A) earns you shinies and B) not filling it causes an ubered hell beast to appear on the next map.  Additionally, each character has a unique effect that is activated in addition to their stat boosts (for example, your first archer triggers an effect where enemies are paralysed the rest of the battle).  Additionally, Wyl learns a toned down version of this effect (these skills remain with him the entire game and transfer in an NG+), so for example Pluming Cheripha teaches him a skill which attempts to paralyse every target on the map for three turns.

Finishing the A path in a first playthrough is harder not only because it's got stronger enemies and maps less in your favor, but because Wyl doesn't have any skills to deal with them.  It's essentially a subtle prod to get you to Plume characters with the intent of A being more of a replay thing (so you go in with Plume skills and level the playing field a bit... this also doesn't MATTER because weapons also carry over, but  >.>)
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Shale

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3723 on: July 26, 2009, 04:33:57 AM »
So it's instawin plus long-term otherwise avoidable brokenness, with permadeath attached? Yeah, I probably wouldn't touch it anyway. There's nothing in that package I don't avoid as a matter of course.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 04:35:32 AM by Shale »
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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3724 on: July 26, 2009, 06:14:26 AM »


FF6! Spent a lot of time in a car recently and didn't need to drive, so that usually means I play some GBA game. I'm up to Thamasa. Fake ending's still good, but I found myself mentally replacing Edgar's line about using his manly charms on a palace servant to discover the Empire's evil plan with:

"I'm getting really tired of this, Locke. Every time this adventure's in trouble someone is like 'Oh, help us! Where's Edgar, he'll fuck our way out!'"

Actually vaguely relevant, as I'm in the same area in FF6 Eviltype.  Eh, the fake ending never entirely did it for me.  I'm generally willing to give FF6 a fairly long leash for not having much memory space, and thus being unable to fit much more plot / explanations in...  but ultimately, for the whole last part of the WoB to make sense, Kefka needs to acquire godlike power in a very narrow time period.  Remember, the Espers burn Vector so thoroughly there's nothing for the Returners to do when they arrive.  Presumably if Kefka / Geshtal could have stopped them then and gotten some Magicite, they would have.  Furthermore, it can somewhat safely be assumed that if there was any serious target of their anger, it'd be the Magitek Research Facility.  And Cid isn't even working for them anymore!  So, in the time it takes for Terra & Locke to go to Thamasa (3 days?) the Empire switches from "helpless against the Espers" to "Kefka effortlessly defeats all of them at once."  Granted, this means that the plot can continue, yay, but it felt kind of arbitrary to uber up Kefka so fast.  (I suppose you can argue that once the Empire knew Magicite was the key, they gave a bunch to Kefka?  But they knew that before...  and it's kind of implied that the Espers you save were the only ones in the Magitek Factory...  and they still have no Cid.  Eh.)

Everything from after the Magitek Factory until the fake ending is all just a ruse by Kefka and Gesthal. The Empire probably could have captured the Espers, but then they still would have had to deal with the Returners trying to stop them. Instead, by letting Vector burn, which they planned on no longer needing once they got their center of power relocated, they convinced Locke and Terra to do shit FOR them. If Edgar hadn't fucked their way out of Vector things probably would have turned out even worse. The fact that the Imperial Base right outside the Sealed Gate was completely empty so you could walk straight the hell through wasn't a tipoff that you were playing in to their hands or anything?

And as far as Kefka neutralizing Esper powers... I always figured the Empire had some way of doing that already. Otherwise, how the hell are you going to capture and experiment on them, if you can't keep them from using magic on you? I just accepted he could do it and moved on, because that's much better than the bullshit babble explanations you get in a lot of games.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 06:19:36 AM by Rob the Stampede »