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Author Topic: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.  (Read 687315 times)

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3350 on: July 08, 2009, 12:53:03 PM »
Oh yeah I saw every plot twist/RPG cliche so far (Estelle, Judith, Atherum) coming, it must be a sign I'm getting old and jaded.

there are plot twists in ToV?

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3351 on: July 08, 2009, 01:05:05 PM »
I have played ToD2 and ToR in Japanese. I do remember Harold seemed like a fun mage to play, though I didn't find her particularly 'viable' over the melee characters.

As for Mao, admittedly I didn't use him unless I had to, so I can't really judge how good he was.

Who the hell is Ange?

Niu's point is Harold is a usable mage and is actually very awesome. Same with Mao. They are Tales mages that, while not as great as the melee dudes (this is a universal truth IMO) they're still great at what they do.

Ange is from Tales of Innocence.
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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3352 on: July 08, 2009, 01:07:56 PM »
5% exp boost from Swift Learner is 1 level ahead at level 20 or so (level cap).  Thing is, levels outside of every third level is kind of worthless after level 5 or so in Fallout where you can easy have enough skill points to be strong enough at your bread and butter skills.  Where is perks, even those early level ones, are worth way more than 20/40/60 skill points ever are.
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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3353 on: July 08, 2009, 02:38:55 PM »
TOMI Episode 1 -

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Generally high quality all over, some of the puzzles were a bit inane but that's been the case in every installment really, nice to have multiple choice speaking back after W&G (and, for that matter, actually stating what the options are unlike SBCG4AP) but there isn't anywhere near enough talking in this episode, and also a tad too many fake options.

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3354 on: July 08, 2009, 03:19:06 PM »
I can't think of a single Tales game I've played (all but ToI and TotT) where mages haven't been useful.  I don't think I'd ever play without them.

Phantasia - Have some of the best relative damage, and both of them are great for interrupting targets. 

Destiny - Not the best, but Philia is decent at worst.

Eternia - Keele and Meredy are both excellent, and Max plays like one with Elemental Master.  Interruption fun.

Symphonia - ...ok, kind of weak.  Raine at least is the healer, and there's one or two bosses where Genis is nice for.  Worse than Destiny, and probably the only game where I could see going without them.

Legendia - Norma owns your soul. 

Abyss - Damage goes up a lot, plus they are all great for nuking enemies (optional, bosses, etc.) while a sacrificial lamb leads them.

Rita - ...er...I mean ToV!
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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3355 on: July 08, 2009, 03:53:46 PM »
I think the point is that you usually don't want to be the one playing as them; very much the AI's job.
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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3356 on: July 08, 2009, 04:43:34 PM »
I wouldn't really call the ToE mages excellent myself.  you probably want one of Keele or Meredy for Nurse, sure, but outside that they just fall entirely too far behind the fighters in damage.  Mind, if you want to count Max as a mage (reasonable) he is pretty good, but he needs that level of damage to compete and Keele/Meredy have, what, a tenth of it?  Yeah.
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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3357 on: July 08, 2009, 04:58:37 PM »
FFX-2 has bonus points for epic fail there unless I am mistaken as well.  To get 100% you had to see all scenes to unlock things (and get the good ending).  This meant you had to watch them all, which I guess is a good enough argument in and of itself in that if you give a shit you won't skip them, still fuck you FFX-2)

I'm pretty sure the no skipping part refers to the Maechen rant in Chapter 1 where you keep getting increasingly desperate options to interrupt him. Instead you need to let the 5 (EDIT: Actually I think it was like 10) minute rant play out for the %.

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3358 on: July 08, 2009, 05:20:46 PM »
Maybe I'm a bit off-balance, but am I the only one who set the early mages (Klarth, Arche, Keele, Meredy, ToL ones) to do nothing and then manually had them cast what and when I wanted?  A bit of thinking keeps enemies tied up a lot, and the ToE spells don't interrupt the battle flow, which means you can lock things pretty well.  Reid charges, Meredy casts Freeze Lancer or whatever, Keele charges some other large AoE spell so they overlap, Max uses Elemental Master, you effectively have a spell going off continuously.  Damage really isn't that important, though it's not too bad.  3k-4k on average, not hitting weaknesses?  Yeah, Max and Reid probably average around 20k, but the mage damage is MT-ish, and I prefer the tying up aspect to the damage, really.  Granted, I am a micromanagement whore, so that might be my problem - probably not as effective if you leave them solely on AI, but surely not that bad.  Also, your party substitutes?  Chat...no.  Farah needs manually controlled to be most effective - don't remember how good Reid is on AI, but he's 10x better on manual, so...I really don't find you need that extra fighter, overall.

Point about the control thing, although some of them are fun - Rita (mentioned already), Shirley! are decently fun.  Granted, I usually have been stuck as the mage in the multi-player games I've played through, so again, might be biased.
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Meeplelard

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3359 on: July 08, 2009, 06:02:50 PM »
I definitely found Meredy and Keele exceedingly useful.  I don't see how you can say they're not.  They continually slam enemies with spells that keep them tied up alongside Reid whose ripping things apart (if you want, replace Reid with Farah.  Basically whichever front Line Melee PC you're controlling.)  They're certainly better than, say, AI Farah, and Chat just really sucks.  I don't see how you can say they aren't that useful.  Pre-Jade Tales mages were NEVER used for damage.  Arche and Klarth certainly wasn't (outside of the Maxwell is God stage), Philia sure as hell wasn't, and definitely NOT Genis.  Heck, Rita isn't even that much on damage until late game where her obscene shit kicks in.

Tales mages are good for screwing with enemies from the back lines while your fighters slam them hard.  Genis kind of failed at this, since his magic took too long, and wasn't as good as it could be.  Meredy and Keele were good at this.  Even if it did low damage, Spread was enough to screw enemies by keeping them locked up, while Reid would rip them in half.  No, they aren't the best mages, but I can't see how you can say "They aren't too useful."

And...OK, in the case of Klarth and Arche, some of the problem with them is their early options really suck.  Klarth especially.  Gnome and Undine are weaker than you'd like, Ifrit is just not strong enough to justify it even if all shots hit one guy, Sylph is shit and only exists cause its better than his book smacks, and Maxwell really only stands out for ST damage (which its very good at), being kind of unreliable for randoms.  Its not til he gets Luna that he starts truly showing immense effectiveness.
Arche...well, her fail phase isn't as long; there's a decent point of the game where she relies on Storm, which is kind of crappy, to do anything.  She starts getting a lot better when she gets Thunderblade, which happens early enough, and later Ray (let alone Indignation...)
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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3360 on: July 08, 2009, 06:13:58 PM »
"not excellent" isn't the same as "not useful".  Though honestly my experience doesn't match yours in terms of the Craymel Mages typing up enemies well (perhaps I played them too much like later mages and should have left their weak spells on?), so they ultimately were dealing slow, weak damage.  Ranged and could tie up enemies that were hanging back, so still functional, but not vital.  I think the biggest drawback is that their MT/large AoE damage (which to my mind is the actual value of a Tales Mage) is considerably later compared to others in the series.
That said, better than Genis certainly and probably better than the ToL mages, but lacks to mid-game domination of the ToP mages and the steady high damage of the TotA crew... though in that case, you could argue that the free-run playing field leaves mages more vulnerable and thus less effective if you want.  So basically I'm saying that the best mages in the series (at least within my experience) are Arche and Clark, and even they trail off in the endgame a bit as Cless goes insane.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3361 on: July 08, 2009, 06:22:23 PM »
Their real problem is that they are near impossible to play as, which is stupid, since you're basically cutting your playable cast down by a third or so. It was particularly glaring in Abyss where you were basically left with two options, Luke/Guy (who play the same way with different "stats") and Natalia. Maybe Anise, though I didn't enjoy controlling her at all and I'm not sure if many do? Regardless, this is pretty inexcusable when having a variety of characters who control in considerably different ways is the only appealing thing about the team ARPG genre.

Also earlygame Genis sucks horribly. You can't tie anything up effectively when you're that slow.

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3362 on: July 08, 2009, 06:29:35 PM »
I'd argue the same thing applies to Jade in TotA, given how horrendously slow his spellcasting times are. But TotA had absolutely horrible casting times (it's telling when First Aid is two times slower than SO3 Healing, and that's one of the game's fastest spells. It made Natalia nearly impossible to use as a character-controlled healer, I had to use her exclusively as an archer, although she was broked enough at that as it stood because lol snipe+free run). Urgh.
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Meeplelard

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3363 on: July 08, 2009, 06:41:22 PM »
There's a reason I was shocked that Rita is actually very practical to control in battle.  Her spells come off fast enough, and they're easy to work with.  Furthermore, the existence of Overlimit = Instant Spell Casting adds another thing to her.

I will not defend controlling Mages in any other Tales game, outside of MAYBE Sheena in Narikiri Dungeon 3, but that doesn't count.

And...Genis felt like the obvious LVP of ToS, barring maybe AI Controlled Sheena (I'm told PC controlled, she's a beast at tying up enemies.)  His spells are weak, they take too long to come off, and the damage is unimpressive until late game.    Furthermore, enemies are good at getting around them.  I think most will agree he's the worst Pure Attack Tales Mage in the series for a reason.

So no, Elfboy, that's not "Early game Genis."  That's just "Genis in general" <_<.  It doesn't help that what Genis would be good for (Tying up enemies), Zelos/Kratos can technically pull off as well, getting a lot of higher end spells too.  They miss out on the really strong ones like Meteor Swarm, but still get big AoE moves, even if the spells don't hit very hard.  No, I'm not suggesting you use them as Mages, just saying that when it comes down to it, they aren't that much worse than Genis at it, which speaks heavily for Genis' worth.  To add insult to injury, Kratos/Zelos also have some healing which can be helpful in a pinch.  Difference is, Raine's healing is a lot better so they can't totally replace her, more just work in a pinch if she's busy casting something else like Resurrection.  Genis is totally one dimensional, and not good at that lone dimension.

He's a lot better in ToS2, where he hits like a truck.  Seeing Meteor Swarm do like 3000 damage (ToS2 has a generally lower damage curve than other Tales games) to enemies...sometimes multiple times...is pretty frightening, and he hits much wider areas than ToS1, as well as casting spells a little faster too.

Jade is the first Tales Mage, in any event, who was good for the RAW POWER thing...and I think he might be the only one.  Well, Rita's spells hit hard, but outside of her really late game stuff, I don't remember them being especially painful unless she's hitting a weakness, more just "A little better than fighters."  What made Rita stand out was her general utility of said damage; its ranged, hits areas, gets around enemy blocking, what have you.  The fact that she can be controlled and not feel like a burden was just icing.

Actually, ToV is pretty awesome on playable options.  Yuri, Repede, Rita and Judith (...if kept to simple stuff, unless you're CRAZY and actually learn her complex nonsense) are all very workable and play differently.  Never bothered much with Karol mostly cause I hate tank style playing in ARPGs, but wouldn't shock me if he was practical.  This leaves Estelle, whose a healer (so you probably want her AI controlled anyway), and Raven whose...got too many options that playing as him would limit without severe armounts of micromanaging (THANK GOD Tales games let you changes skills mid battle), to the point where its just easier going "Fuck it, let the AI control him."
Pity Flynn is only a temp, as he'd be another interesting PC to work with (though, he might be too similar to Yuri?)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 06:48:57 PM by Meeplelard »
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Yoshiken

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3364 on: July 08, 2009, 07:18:29 PM »
FFX-2 has bonus points for epic fail there unless I am mistaken as well.  To get 100% you had to see all scenes to unlock things (and get the good ending).  This meant you had to watch them all, which I guess is a good enough argument in and of itself in that if you give a shit you won't skip them, still fuck you FFX-2)

I'm pretty sure the no skipping part refers to the Maechen rant in Chapter 1 where you keep getting increasingly desperate options to interrupt him. Instead you need to let the 5 (EDIT: Actually I think it was like 10) minute rant play out for the %.

Oh, you had to listen to that. You also had to let each cutscene play out -as well-. As far as I know, you could get completion in each area without it, but didn't get 100%.

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3365 on: July 08, 2009, 07:32:27 PM »
PC-controlled, Sheena is one of only three characters who can chain attacks forever (Zelos and Kratos being the other two). So yeah.

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3366 on: July 08, 2009, 07:44:41 PM »
Late-game Genis is easily made usable though with... one of the EX Skills. Can't remember the name of it, but it randomises casting time, which turns each fight into "Choose a command and wait for it to be carried out" into "Spam the command until it gets cast instantly". Not much better, I know, but I found it fun, at least~

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3367 on: July 08, 2009, 08:04:03 PM »
Finally playing SA some. Just had my first non-fail run (http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=3811). Starting out on Easy, yes, because I know better by this point than to try starting out on Normal. Beaten with Reimu A, pretty decent outside of Utsuho. The fight would've been less shameful if not for how that "You are trapped between two giant fireballs" card turned out. I was doing okay at first and thought, "Alright, I think I can get through this card without any trouble now." This was immediately followed by me dying in an incredibly stupid fashion twice in quick succession. Final spellcard is sick and wrong. I can only imagine how bad it is on higher difficulties.

Will probably get used to some other character modes before moving on to Normal. Marisa B is weird. Focusing doesn't seem to do anything, but your shot pattern changes when you die? Funky. Also...extra lives don't depend at all on points this time, I gather? Just on collecting the purple stars? Means I can mostly ignore the point cards and concentrate on the necessary business of not dying.

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3368 on: July 08, 2009, 08:21:37 PM »
CT: Try going into the battle menu and hitting start, I think it was?  That should change characters.

Will probably get used to some other character modes before moving on to Normal. Marisa B is weird. Focusing doesn't seem to do anything, but your shot pattern changes when you die? Funky. Also...extra lives don't depend at all on points this time, I gather? Just on collecting the purple stars? Means I can mostly ignore the point cards and concentrate on the necessary business of not dying.

MarisaB's shot changes if you tap focus and shot at the same time.  Cycles through five different shot types.

Extra lives are just by the stars, yes.  I think you get a star any time you don't die on an attack?  Bombing too much might stop it too?  Not sure.

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3369 on: July 08, 2009, 09:50:07 PM »
Zoku is always a jerk.

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3370 on: July 08, 2009, 11:00:15 PM »
MK: Finished

Decent, didn't have a typical ending, so that was refreshing.

Cast was fun.

Battle system was pretty neat and most boss fights had strategy involved, though nothing a good ole blitzing couldn't take care of. lol

Oh, I also got Flay's ending. Flay is awesome. 92% of the encyclopedia completed.

8/10 works for me right now
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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3371 on: July 09, 2009, 12:52:28 AM »

Extra lives are just by the stars, yes.  I think you get a star any time you don't die on an attack?  Bombing too much might stop it too?  Not sure.

You definitely forfeit the star if you die during an attack/card. Don't think bombing does it.

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3372 on: July 09, 2009, 02:14:56 AM »
I am in high agreement that ToE mages are very effective. Freeze Lancer and Blizzard are fast spells that crowd controls and add good status. With Mystic Symbol and use the speed up input by controlling them, those goes out in less than 2 seconds. Those are really practical magic spams especially when Rid's AI isn't too dumb. High end spell like Cyclone, Ground Dasher, and Holy Lance is also perfect at tying up enemies, especially those without stun frame. Cyclone alone made Sekundes 3 times easier to fight. And if played with extension, Spread is also very fast and cost effective along with Maelstrom. And Nurse is godly, its long animation actually prevents enemy spells from going off, gives Rid plenty of time to interrupt.

And never finds ToA spell very slow, with manual input and Mystic Symbol, upper middle tier spell can go off in like 2.5 seconds. Jade wasn't too frail in close combat either, he is good enough at making rooms for himself to properly cast his spells. Though, agree they aren't as useful, consider melee is much better in ToA.

But I have to argue Harold is a VERY useful mage. She is FAST, especially with manual input. ToD2 melee AI isn't too stupid, and we know ToD2 physical does SHIT for damage. So why not use Harold, who is FAST at her spell and even FASTER with manual input. Why not spam Embrace End and Divine Saber like mad?? With right tweaking, those can go off in just 2 seconds. Late game random battles ends so fast thanks to her.

Actually, ToV is pretty awesome on playable options.  Yuri, Repede, Rita and Judith (...if kept to simple stuff, unless you're CRAZY and actually learn her complex nonsense) are all very workable and play differently.  Never bothered much with Karol mostly cause I hate tank style playing in ARPGs, but wouldn't shock me if he was practical.  This leaves Estelle, whose a healer (so you probably want her AI controlled anyway), and Raven whose...got too many options that playing as him would limit without severe armounts of micromanaging (THANK GOD Tales games let you changes skills mid battle), to the point where its just easier going "Fuck it, let the AI control him."
Pity Flynn is only a temp, as he'd be another interesting PC to work with (though, he might be too similar to Yuri?)

Actually, the complex nonsense is what makes Judy so awesome. And no matter how complex she gets, she can't be anymore complex than Raven. And it is funny to find Estelle is the tanker instead in higher difficulties, her I'll never die tweak are often your life saver when bosses are dishing out cheap damages.

We'll see how Flynn plays in September, I expect the typical Tales main playing style out of him, consider his classical skill set.

Shale

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3373 on: July 09, 2009, 02:40:01 AM »
Tales of Monkey Island: Screaming Narwhal has been launched. Excellent game, up there with Abe Lincoln Must Die and Reality 2.0 for best thing Telltale has done. It also feels in every way like a Monkey Island game. Great writing, good characters (none really on a level with Curse, but that's a high bar even for Monkey Island), all-around good stuff. Plaaaaaaaaay iiiiiiiiit.
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."
-Ponder Stibbons

[23:02] <Veryslightlymad> CK dreams about me starring in porno?
[23:02] <CmdrKing> Pretty sure.

Meeplelard

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #3374 on: July 09, 2009, 03:43:43 AM »
Niu: I wasn't saying that Judy is OMG AWESOME!!! if kept to Simple stuff; I just said she's viable and workable, and still gives a unique feel compared to, say, Yuri and Repede.  Obviously, if you want to use her to her fullest, you'll spend some time actually getting use to her crazy complex aerial game of insanity, which I'm sure makes her a lot better!  But she's still effective enough if you keep her to simple basic combos.  Is she as good as Yuri or Repede when doing that?  No.  Is she as good as she could be? No.  Is she a horrible character? No.

Raven is someone I can't realistically see ever controlling though.  They pretty much spliced every single Tales Fighting style archetype on him,  be it Meleer, Archer, Mage, what have you...and it works.  The thing is?  It only really works if you keep him ON AI, cause Human control has too many limitations to the point where you'll spend more time micromanaging his skills than you will actually fighting, just best left to the AI who has unlimited access to all his skills, and let him work from there (in addition to the usual "You want healers AI Controlled" thing.)

Also, regarding Estelle being tanky...being decent in human hands has little to do with durability.  Guy, for example, has some early game durability issues, yet many will agree he's the easiest character to use even then in TotA.  Estelle is typically a healer, so again, best left to AI, and her magic isn't quite as versatile and user friendly as Rita, so yeah.  Admittedly, I MIGHT be underselling her physical techs, and she may actually work as an unexpectedly solid fighter, but honestly wouldn't know; I'm mostly just thinking Primary Healer = Best Left to AI.

How reasonable is Karol to control, OOC, Niu?  I never messed with him much cause I didn't like his fighting style, so I can't realistically judge.

Lastly...bare in mind, Niu, that people don't bring up ToD2 cause most haven't played it, so while I don't deny that Harold may very well be a good mage, she is typically ignored mostly cause most don't know of her worth!  This applies to anyone from ToR, ToI and TotT too, of course.  Bring them up if you want, but just remember, people aren't bringing them up not cause they don't respect them, its cause they honestly don't know (and from all accounts, it sounds like Harold is best Mage in ToD2, a game where Magic >>>>>>> Physicals, so her being useful sounds like a general "duh")
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A