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Author Topic: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.  (Read 691638 times)

Cmdr_King

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5375 on: October 25, 2009, 04:36:03 AM »
Yeah, enemy design (ie having competent enemies) is why you can't really say Grandia III isn't the better game on gameplay overall.  But, I feel like the skill books are so much less flexible and, consequently, less fun than in Grandia II, and how the game handled tech levelling/learning can just go fuck itself.
Turning SP from a primary resource (MP being secondary) to a limit-esque system is neither here nor there; it's different, not really better or worse.
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5376 on: October 25, 2009, 04:38:25 AM »
I like it because it makes it distinct from MP. The tech levelling/learning... well, I am a SaGa Frontier fan, so I will be honest in saying that it doesn't bother me a bit.

Skill books are less flexible, though?
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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5377 on: October 25, 2009, 04:38:42 AM »
Comment on VPDS:

The problem with VPDS in my mind are little things. Small touches like level-ups taking an annoying amount of your time, or how Dash's animation gets old, or how the music for the fights themselves is so utterly pointless because battles in this game last for only one side's attack chain so you get constantly switching music or music that gets cut off. It's just LOTS of little shit that turned me off to it.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5378 on: October 25, 2009, 04:45:28 AM »
Grandia 3: MWAHAHAHAHA! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHA!

So Violetta decides to check out Emo's World and gets turned to glass. Obviously I need to avenge my fellow girl-kind. Actually, screw that, I'm not acknowledging Violetta as one my own.

Oh right, boss fight time.

Emeeeeelious~ (3 resets):

64000 HP. Fortunately, he has no special defences or anything, so while he's more durable than the previous bosses, it's not by any crazy amount. He gets killed in about 33 hits, compared to La-Ilim's 25 and Violetta's 20. His parts have way too much durability to be worth bothering with, is my kneejerk, though the Orb of Darkness has only 32k so this could be an incorrect assumption. Pretty sure the 48k HP sword isn't worth it, however.

Emelious himself hovers around 1.5x average speed. He either uses physical attacks, which hit twice and hit a fan instead of a single target (sword shockwaves), or Dimension Blade, which goes off quickly and does about 1100 (high 3HKO) and cancels.

The Demon Sword is slightly slower than Emelious, and again, has only one special move to go with his physicals. The sword's physicals resemble Criticals; they aren't super fast, but they do cancel, and do substantial damage. Spirit Wail, the special tech, isn't as fast, but it makes up for that by hurting a ridiculous amount; 2200, which is damage so high that most things combined with that will kill (Dahna has 2400 HP with maxed Life Up). It also does 20 hits and knocks the target down, so even a physical right after that is going to hurt a lot.

The Orb of Darkness is a bit below average speed, but has quite a few annoying tricks. Its common attack is a fairly quick spell called Shadow Ball, which does about 400 and cancels, but is evadable, so not too scary. Much more deadly is Dark Force, which does about 1100-1400 magic damage, 2HKO Dahna and 3HKO Alfina. It does 30 hits and airs, so it makes anything comboed after it very deadly, but on the other hand, defending prevents the airing and reduces its own damage to like 300, so obviously this is a Good Thing to do. The orb also has Shadow Wave, which does about 500 physical damage to everyone near Emelious, and puts him in a very long-lasting status which doubles his number of combo hits (to 4, which is about 600-700 damage) and gives him perfect evade (he already has 50%) which means virtually nothing since you shouldn't be hitting his evade anyway. Finally, it has Flash, which is used only when Emelious is below half HP (I think) and puts the main body in Speed Up status. This is very unpleasant.

Finally, there's the God Slayer, which is immune to everything, gets a turn near instantly, and spends about four rounds charging God Killer, which, if it gets off, kills you. So obviously it needs to be cancelled periodically. I tend to cancel it any time after it's half done charging if I have a free turn (i.e. one I'd otherwise use to attack); occasionally I have to cancel it in desperation if the fight has turned against me, too.

Although Emelious can use almost all of his moves at any HP, his AI changes rather notably as his HP falls. Initially, the big three (Dimension Blade, Dark Force, and Spirit Wail) are fairly uncommon, but once he's below half HP they start coming out to play a lot, which makes the battle much tougher.

***

Anyway, setup is similar to preivous bosses. The main difference is that I don't need to block elements or status, which is nice. So I give both girls dresses (Alfina having some MDef helps a fair bit, it takes about 300 off of Dark Force) and Magic Rings.

Otherwise... cancel the three most dangerous attacks whenever possible, as well as Flash. Defend-move when cancel-physicals and Shadow Ball are coming, defend through the big damage when it can't be avoided. Counter and Jolt Counter prove crucial attacks in this battle, since he uses a LOT of evadable stuff, and the body's physicals are multihit, so Jolt Counter even cancels them! Knocking him into the air also slows down his parade of attacks; often a lot will be waiting at the Com line. Trying to IP damage him works somewhat, but not too well; he seems to have a skill where he randomly isn't affected by any IP damage you do.

Umana's Orb is a nice little trump card for "get out of ridiculously hairy situation". The time I win, I use it when Emelious has 9000 HP left to just plain kill him, though.

Hellburner runs all of the offence that cancel techs and counters don't contribute. Nothing too unusual here. Hellburner is a really sweet spell for cost effective beatdowns.

First loss occurs rather quickly as I misjudge just how much damage Emelious can pile on. The other two come late in a fight where things turn against me, and I get in situations such as having to cancel the God Slayer at a bad time, or having to cancel a Spirit Wail to survive, hoping to dodge everything else because I have 1300 HP left and I should survive another round, then barely dying to Dark Force. :(

Hardest non-Melc Crystal boss so far? Probably. All his big damage being ST makes him dramatically better when there's only two PCs to absorb the punishment, and the punishment he starts dishing out below half HP or so keeps me paying constant attention to four dangerous opponents at once.


Afterwards, Alfina gets kidnapped (SHOCKINGLY). Actually the only shocking part is it's one of the more forgivable things Alfina does. Yuki trying to fly a plane close to Alfina to rescue her, though? Less smart. gj Yuki. Also XORRRNNN HAS BEEEN REBOOORRRNNNN. Up next, Dahna SCC and Sky Captain Schmidt's Sky Captain Drama! Stay tuned!

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Shale

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5379 on: October 25, 2009, 04:46:33 AM »
I never liked the book/egg system, but that's because I don't like setups where I can equip or trade skills and spells like they were weapons. I prefer it when my choices for how to set up a character mean something, which is why I like G1's skill/magic leveling. (with extra points off for G3's mana eggs being the method by which the game is crushed like an empty soda can.) Aerial combos are a good idea, but I wish they weren't so fiddly/luck-dependent to set up (you either need your characters to get turns in sequence by chance, or to put a disproportionate amount of effort into making it happen deliberately), which takes them down a notch for me.

Also, I could have sworn there were canceling techs in G1. If not, that raises my estimation of 2 and 3's systems a bit.
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Cmdr_King

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5380 on: October 25, 2009, 04:47:21 AM »
SaGa style levelling doesn't work when the skills run off non-renewable resources, for my money.

Skill books... mostly, they removed direct stat boosts, and I really, really felt the lack of Agility/MP/SP boosts in Grandia III.  I also remember having issues with not really having a good stock of books in the endgame, but that could easily be my fault or even faulty memory.
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Meeplelard

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5381 on: October 25, 2009, 04:51:47 AM »
G2 had one distinct game play advantage to me over G3, and that's a better tech LEARNING system.  Having more control over when and how you learn things, in addition to not having to guess/be surprised when you get things was certainly nice.  Mind you, G3 was generally superior in like all other ways, be it the way they made SP more than just "alternative MP source", forcing you to use the Battle System, the Aerial Combo things, etc.  Heck, just the game being nice enough to go "USE THIS MOVE NOW!" at times certainly helped a lot, cause it ruled out the guessing game factor, which can get annoying in Grandias when there are un-expected factors like "Your character is running around the field like a moron instead of charging the enemy head on!"  Didn't matter for Cancelling Techs, but could matter for Criticals, whose primary purpose was to conserve SP such that you don't have to use Cancellation Techs!

It was a pretty big deal in Grandia Xtreme, mind; many a time I thought I'd get the enemy cancelled...oh shit, their Critical Animation is slightly longer than I thought! or the character would run in a pattern different than expected cause the enemy was 2 inches into their straight line space!  No way to anticipate this, and it doesn't make for good gameplay; G3's little help system really does wonders here.

Quote
Also, I could have sworn there were canceling techs in G1. If not, that raises my estimation of 2 and 3's systems a bit.

There were, but they were so completely pointless it wasn't even funny.  I don't just mean in a "pointless cause the game is so easy!" sense, I mean "pointless cause Cancelling sets enemy back by such a small amount, and no enemy has long enough charge time on moves to take advantage of it!"  It was such a pointless feature, it was effectively not there.  G2, while easy, at least Cancelling had a noteworthy impact, which is one reason why Lotus Flower was so awesome.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 04:54:14 AM by Meeplelard »
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5382 on: October 25, 2009, 04:54:29 AM »
There are MP-use-reducing skills for each element, which is neat. You really should be using your Cancel techs enough to get skills at a reasonable pace, though. There are basically Skill Books for whatever setup you want, too, and lots of great skills to use with them. SP boosts would be cool but feel less relevant to me due to SP regen.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5383 on: October 25, 2009, 04:56:52 AM »
On the other hand, I really disliked G1's system of grinding up spell/weapon levels. It encourages things like healing piddly amounts of HP or using useless spells in order to get the levels you need, which I don't care for; I far prefer battles which reward effiency (see also: G3's excellent victories giving you SP).

I agree that G2's system of skill books is probably even better. It's hampered by some broken skills (game did not feel equipped at all to handle HP+800 or Agility+50) but overall it's a cool way to make you decide what to level in terms of techs and skills. The eggs themselves were handled less well, as spells unlocked in seemingly random ways.

G3's tech levelling isn't really Saga style, that's largely an illusion. You get techs at predictable instances based off your Special Level and number of uses of each tech (having redone whole dungeons on this challenge, I've seen things level up at similar points each time... though there is some small variance). I agree, though, even a "halfway" Saga style is not something I consider desirable, but fortunately it's a small enough part of the game that I can forgive it.

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Cmdr_King

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5384 on: October 25, 2009, 05:03:40 AM »
That makes sense, although I still take issue with not being able to build them up.  Largely because it makes later techs utterly useless, or nearly so (using untrained techs in Grandia == lolcancelledyousuck) although the changes to how SP works mean techs are marginalized to start with and it's not a huge deal.  Just aggravating.

The part that really nags me about books is, well, HP +800 and Agl +50 seem like they'd be quite balanced in Grandia III!  And don't exist.  Pout, etc.
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Shale

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5385 on: October 25, 2009, 05:05:56 AM »
On the other hand, I really disliked G1's system of grinding up spell/weapon levels. It encourages things like healing piddly amounts of HP or using useless spells in order to get the levels you need, which I don't care for; I far prefer battles which reward effiency (see also: G3's excellent victories giving you SP).

Oh, yeah, I realize it's not flawless. It just panders to a specific preference of mine while G2 and G3 rub me the wrong way on the exact same issue.
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Twilkitri

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5386 on: October 25, 2009, 05:11:20 AM »
Valkyrie Covenant-

Finished the A-Path. Can't really think of much to say about it. It was good to have the Cennair situation answered. Was a bit annoying that unlike the other paths this one gave no attempt at describing the resolution to the war, and the final music box scene seemed out of place.

Ran through the Seraphic Gate. So it's TWEWY Another Day-lite with more childish shenanigans and you have to work harder for them. That's not really the best trade. Assuming I'm not horribly underestimating how much damage Wylfred should have been doing, buying an Arondight was a very good investment to make here.

Sinless battles are a pain, moreso in the maingame than in the SG, due to their dramatic reduction of the amount of damage necessary but not appearing to take this into account. They needed to have a backup mechanic to use Overkill for in these situatons.

There needed to be a lot more characters showing up on other paths. I was saddened to find that you do not get the chance to kill the Wonder Twins or Gwendal on the Camille path. Are the Wonder Twins Natalia's children, or am I looking for links overly much?

Treasure Hunting was nigh-worthless. I took the accessory off halfway through the B-path and never looked back. Might have gotten two worthwhile items out of it at best.

In any case, it was a pleasant game in general. At times it did begin to grate a bit, mostly when it was throwing maps at you consecutively, but these were far and away the fewer of times.

Cmdr_King

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5387 on: October 25, 2009, 05:14:40 AM »
*blink* I... never got the impression that impression at all, for your spoiler-y comment.

Also, how far in the SG did you get?  Finish a cycle?
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Twilkitri

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5388 on: October 25, 2009, 06:02:09 AM »
I didn't see it stated explicitly ingame, but the units in each chapter tend to all be linked somehow (to be fair Gwendal and Heugoe aren't really linked to any others I guess) and she did have children that she was forced to abandon, and the Wonder Twins were at one point in an orphanage, so I thought that there may be a possibility there.

Finished one cycle, yes. Going back into that save to recheck some profile information I see that the opening has changed, although the opening of the first map hasn't, and all the extra characters are still existant which may mean that there are other things in their place... but I think I will leave looking into that for another time.

Cmdr_King

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5389 on: October 25, 2009, 06:48:54 AM »
Sadly no.  The only changes between runs beyond the improvement of the enemy stats/randoms is one scene.  The scene between floors... 5 and 6 was it?  where you get the Auguste and family skit is replaced by others involving different sets of characters.
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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5390 on: October 25, 2009, 06:52:14 AM »
I didn't see it stated explicitly ingame, but the units in each chapter tend to all be linked somehow (to be fair Gwendal and Heugoe aren't really linked to any others I guess) and she did have children that she was forced to abandon, and the Wonder Twins were at one point in an orphanage, so I thought that there may be a possibility there.

Finished one cycle, yes. Going back into that save to recheck some profile information I see that the opening has changed, although the opening of the first map hasn't, and all the extra characters are still existant which may mean that there are other things in their place... but I think I will leave looking into that for another time.

I got that impression about Natalia, too. In the path where the Creepy-as-Fuck Twins join your party, Natalia gets a long look at them and says something to effect of what she regrets. Now she could just be reminded of her lost children in general and she feels like lamenting (hey, she's about to be put to death), but I instantly thought of this connection and I hadn't even read Natalia's bio at that point.


Niu

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5391 on: October 25, 2009, 06:56:36 AM »
CK, you left out one thing in SG, enemies start to get silly names, especially Gaby and Theodore.

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5392 on: October 25, 2009, 07:31:18 AM »
VPDS is my favorite SRPG also, but I hate the genre in general so that's not saying much.

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5393 on: October 25, 2009, 08:05:35 AM »
Persona 4: Aaaaaand... back to this!

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Hot.

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5394 on: October 25, 2009, 09:38:46 AM »
Oddly, I like Grandia series in general for both sides of the argument there.  I appreciate both a flexible and a more rigid system.  Grandia 1 needed to be harder, Grandia 3 needed more transparency on the skill learning thing (It isn't purely random of course, I observed the same things NEB did with regards to learning things at similar times).  I suspect that certain actions at different times have varied amounts of experience values or something.

A lot of the things that seem to be a big jump to people going from G2 to G3 are really from Grandia X-Treme though, so yeah.  G3 really is just a linear refinement of slightly shifting design ideals.
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Meeplelard

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5395 on: October 25, 2009, 04:01:44 PM »
Yeah, Grandia X-treme is very much the Proto-Grandia 3.  A lot of the same core ideas are there, between its skill system, how Magic is handled, even the same skill learning system; G3 just improved upon all these ideas, and added in a few new neat ones (Aerial Combos for example.)  Its not as big a jump as people think, just people tend to skip the game in the middle...for understandable reasons.  Grandia Xtreme isn't what I'd call "high quality entertainment" or anything, for all that I do think it gets more hate than it deserves.
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hinode

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5396 on: October 25, 2009, 04:04:09 PM »
I think most people took one look at Grandia Xtreme's name and decided they wanted nothing to do with it.

Meeplelard

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5397 on: October 25, 2009, 04:12:19 PM »
Oh, Grandia Xtreme has a lot of issues.  While the game doesn't pretend to be anything more than a dungeon crawler, the fact remains that the dungeon can get very tedious, and boring fast, and then add in the fact that to not get your ass kicked by enemies, you need to move at half speed (this whole Ready Stance vs. Dash Stance.  ;_; had a similar idea, it was even stupider there though), when your movement speed was already kind of slow, and add in some load times, subpar menu layouts, and limited item restrictions...I could go on.  The fact that the game lacks anything that can be considered a remotely worthwhile story (its sub-Grandia 3.  As Snowfire once stated, Grandia 3's story sucks, but at least it TRIED at having something RESEMBLING a story.  Grandia Xtreme, its just one giant Zelda's Axiom with Mark Hamil...worse, the game arbitrarily hands a few characters BACKSTORIES!!! in early dungeons which are never touched upon again.  Oh I wish I was making this part up...)

But the core battle system is honestly not that bad.  Like Grandia 3, the game makes you use it, and actually shows what its capable of to some degree.  Grandia 3, of course, did this much better, but compared to G1 and G2, GX actually considerable forward movement in the battle system.  The jump from GX to G3 isn't large, though the little nuisances and tweaks G3 adds to the battle system are significant enough that its different.  Furthermore, G3 is just a much prettier game than GX, GX having out of date, ugly looking polygons and such (then again, G2 is no better in this regard.)

...yeah, I won't deny GX is an unappealing game, and it does have a lot of issues, but of them, the Battle System and core gameplay around it are not among them.
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[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5398 on: October 25, 2009, 04:27:27 PM »
The best part about GX is the egg fusion system. The combat is neat but ultimately like G2 wasted due to the design.

Twil: Yeah, I think you are dead on with your spoiler-tagged assumption. Natalia is suppoed to be 29 or so, so it fits.

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Re: Games you're playing: The 2009 edition.
« Reply #5399 on: October 25, 2009, 08:28:45 PM »
Ok. Just finished that fight I was saying was evil on Flay CQ 5. Turns out that was one of the job fights, and I went to the wrong area. Either that, or he's farther in.
<%King_Meepdorah> roll 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"?
* +Hatbot --> "King_Meepdorah rolls 1d999 for "It was beauty...that killed the mage"? and gets 999."12 [1d999=999]
<%King_Meepdorah> ...
<+superaway> ...Uh oh.
<+RandomConsonant> ...
* +superaway shakes head.