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Author Topic: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.  (Read 148365 times)

Lady Door

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #225 on: March 02, 2009, 08:06:59 PM »
Changed the sig to include the most awesome quote ever, especially in context, even if it is from a really bad book.

"Where the f&*# have the bunnies gone?" said Qeteb.

The extra dish is that Qeteb is the Midday Demon of Destruction, the leader of the demons. XD ... okay, maybe it was just me. Sigged nonetheless.

Also changed my avatar. I spend just about every waking hour I'm not in class translating Beowulf so it seemed appropriate to make it an avatar and weep because I am therefore reminded that I shouldn't be on the forums, I should be translating.

ETA: The image is a cut from a 13th century French manuscript superimposed over the Beowulf manuscript. No, the Beowulf manuscript is not illustrated. Alas.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2009, 08:09:01 PM by Lady Door »
<Demedais> Humans look like cars to me.
<AndrewRogue> That must be confusing in parking lots

Captain K.

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #226 on: March 02, 2009, 08:46:59 PM »
Should we tell her that Beowulf's already been translated?  Nah, let her work.

Lady Door

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #227 on: March 02, 2009, 08:51:39 PM »
You would be surprised how different the translations are. For example, Seamus Heaney's version is hideously wrong because he wrote it with an eye to Irish polemic. Donaldson and Liuzza are closer to the mark, but even the transcription from which I'm translating (Klaeber, 4th edition) has little ticks and emendations (which are different even between the 3rd and 4th editions) that wildly change the meanings of sentences and, indeed, the entire tone of the poem. And then there are the hapax legomena...

... hey, you started it.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2009, 08:54:07 PM by Lady Door »
<Demedais> Humans look like cars to me.
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AndrewRogue

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #228 on: March 03, 2009, 01:23:33 AM »
Way to fail at knowing anything about Old English works in translation and academia, Cappy.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #229 on: March 03, 2009, 03:38:49 AM »
Way to succeed at knowing nothing about Old English works in translation and academia, Cappy.
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NotMiki

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Captain K.

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #233 on: March 03, 2009, 04:20:25 AM »
Hey, stop making fun of Lady Door's grammar!  She's spent so much time in Old English that she's forgotten how Modern English works.

Lady Door

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #234 on: March 03, 2009, 04:48:59 AM »
But ice cream has no bones!
<Demedais> Humans look like cars to me.
<AndrewRogue> That must be confusing in parking lots

NotMiki

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #235 on: March 03, 2009, 05:28:33 AM »
ho ho ho.
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

WanderingMind

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #236 on: March 03, 2009, 05:39:07 AM »
Changed my avatar back to Firo.

Cotigo

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #237 on: March 03, 2009, 01:57:11 PM »
It's not just an issue with translating from Ye Olde Ingles.  Translation from any language is like that; everything is filtered through the Translator, so his/her goals for the translation, writing style, and editorial decisions will always have a major impact on the translation.  Because of this, it's really... stupid to talk about how "accurate" a translation is, because to a degree all translations will be unfaithful to the original.  You can argue that it's all impossible anyway, because language is arbitrary and merely a signifier for something outside of us, which we can only interpret through our language-driven mind, and thus not fully understand.  And because we can never reach this objective definition and comprehend it, because we cannot stop relating things in terms of our native language, translation is both imperative and impossible, because we can never fully bridge the gap between languages, because we can never reach an objective truth.

You can argue that, but then you are Jacques Derrida and must be killed because he is dead and if he's walking about arguing about translation on an internet forum he must be killed for being a zombie and wasting time.

too pretentious;dr:  translation is interesting and a much more challenging subject than you previously thought.

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« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 02:00:22 PM by President Bill Richardson »

Lady Door

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #238 on: March 03, 2009, 05:02:23 PM »
Accuracy in translation depends a lot on sticking close to the material after a fashion. What exactly you stick to, be it meaning or theme or direct translation of words, is up to your school of thought, but I have to say that Irish nationalism plays a very small part, if any part at all, in Beowulf. Adding that much to a poem in translation, as Heaney does, passes from "interpretation" to "polemic."

Hence, accuracy.

In any case, I'd rather not derail this thread anymore. New thread or PMs, please?
<Demedais> Humans look like cars to me.
<AndrewRogue> That must be confusing in parking lots

Hunter Sopko

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #239 on: March 03, 2009, 05:51:45 PM »
This argument would have been fairly amusing with your Nathan Stark avatar.

Rob's sig is making me want to avatar Admiral Spaceship from Lasercats... but I can't find any good pictures.

Cotigo

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #240 on: March 04, 2009, 12:18:38 AM »
Accuracy in translation depends a lot on sticking close to the material after a fashion. What exactly you stick to, be it meaning or theme or direct translation of words, is up to your school of thought, but I have to say that Irish nationalism plays a very small part, if any part at all, in Beowulf. Adding that much to a poem in translation, as Heaney does, passes from "interpretation" to "polemic."

Hence, accuracy.

In any case, I'd rather not derail this thread anymore. New thread or PMs, please?

It's General Chat.  We go off on tangents all the time.  I'm sure the masses of jackasses (self included) coming into the threat to talk about superficial altercations to their accounts will forgive us.

On that note, though, I want to type a more thoughtful response than I have time for right now, so I'll do that after class sometime.  My argument will make more sense if I take the time to relate it to preexisting treatises on translation (the English degree has crippled me in that way >_>) so yeah.  I will say that issues of "accuracy" can only extend so far, but I'll need some time to back that statement up. (Wich-yo book learnin' won't you back that argument up).

Knowing my luck though the articles I want to refer to are the ones I shoved into the box that hasn't arrived from Europe yet (and probably won't... grr) but I can probably find them.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #241 on: March 04, 2009, 12:29:35 AM »
In any case, I'd rather not derail this thread anymore. New thread or PMs, please?

No, please continue, this is really interesting. Tangents are OKAY!

Don't worry, I can still get all the latest updates on exciting avatar changes even while reading this discussion about the issues of translation (a field I'm rather close to, though it has more to do with Japanese than Old English, so I don't have much to relate concerning these specific Beowulf-ian issues).

The only thing I do know about Beowulf and Japanese is that the only translation into Japanese that I've seen of it is heavily inundated with Samurai-talk. (Yes, I spend enough time in Japanese bookstores that I actually found a Japanese translation of Beowulf... AND I'm enough of a literature geek to think 'Hey, I wonder what this is like!?'). As a result, I believe this makes Beowulf just as uncool and inaccessible to young Japanese people as the English version does for young Americans.

There -may- be a manga version of it, as well, but that's just a guess.

I wish my Japanese was better.

Captain K.

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #242 on: March 04, 2009, 04:24:52 AM »
Yup.

Grefter

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #243 on: March 04, 2009, 08:06:37 AM »
The only reason Beowulf sounds uncool to English youths is because they are a bunch of wankers.  Beowulf is awesome and there is some pretty palatable translations out there.  Accuracy might be a bit off, but it they are quite consumable.
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Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #244 on: March 04, 2009, 08:13:46 AM »
Indeed. Making Beowulf palatable to kids would require either substantially rewriting it for the worse or making kids more intelligent. Guess which one they're more likely to try?

NotMiki

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #245 on: March 04, 2009, 12:39:41 PM »
hm hm hm.
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
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Lady Door

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #246 on: March 04, 2009, 08:30:24 PM »
Tangents okay? Awesome.

Some of my favorite parts of Beowulf are those which would be horrible for children. For example, I'm about 1000 lines into the poem (which is over 3000 lines long) and there have already been two very, very graphic descriptions of violence -- joints being ripped apart, heads exploding in a fire, blood everywhere, etc. And this isn't even including the number of times they use a descriptor essentially meaning "decorated with blood."

I will defer to Zenny regarding the specifics because I am definitely not versed in theory. I do appreciate what Heaney has done for access to the text, because his version is undeniably fun to read. My hesitation is regarding the lengths to which he's gone to inject the poem with personal agenda, not simply that he's done so. In my experience, bias always has an influence. I am partial to more literal translations because my work tends toward literary interpretation rather than linguistics (though this class definitely emphasizes linguistics), so my designation that Heaney was "wrong" was definitely influenced by that perspective.

Damn you people for making me defend off-handed statements and damn me for making them.
<Demedais> Humans look like cars to me.
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Grefter

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #247 on: March 04, 2009, 09:10:24 PM »
Meh, I have enjoyed both very literal translations for things and localised stuff.  I will have to check who did my Beowulf translation that I own.

Epic of Gilgamesh translations that were really literal and covered different versions of the tales multiple times in the book (So I think it is in there 5 times all up with very minor differences) was a fascinating read, but really quite hard to penetrate for someone without a fascination in small anal differences and the changes it makes to the meaning of things.
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NotMiki

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #248 on: March 05, 2009, 12:42:44 AM »
When I have the time and energy, I'll post some Vampire Hunter D.  It is, I believe, the best example of how to go horribly wrong by translating more-or-less literally.
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

NotMiki

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Re: Sigs, factions and avatars: 2009.
« Reply #249 on: March 05, 2009, 06:57:22 AM »
heh.
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!