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Author Topic: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance  (Read 141958 times)

Hunter Sopko

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #400 on: April 26, 2009, 10:37:19 AM »
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/271316

America conqours the last of the three Niagara Falls from those damn dirty Canadians.

Captain K.

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #401 on: April 26, 2009, 03:37:17 PM »
Canada?  Isn't that one of our suburbs or something?

Also, Final Fantasy Ex Eye Eye Eye looks horrible.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #402 on: April 27, 2009, 05:03:57 AM »
Penny Arcade linked this a while back, so it's possible that all interested readers have already seen it.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=22568

It's an article about the theoretical 'B game' which could supposedly have the same appeal as a B movie.

The interesting point for the DL is that the only example of a B game he gives is Wild Arms 4...

Personally I'm a bit confused on the exact definition of B game and how it would really differentiate from a niche title...

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #403 on: April 27, 2009, 09:44:41 AM »
Production value pretty much.  WA4 is a budget title compared to some of the monsters in the genre.
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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #404 on: April 27, 2009, 02:40:17 PM »
He's talking solely about the plot of games, I would reckon, given the mention of Resident Evil 1 without any mention of Resident Evil 1's B-movie level gameplay. 

Given that, WA4 fits the bill.  Only Arnaud and Raquel approach being tolerable characters, and if you're really going to defend the dialogue I will point you to every single god damn moment of Kidz v. Adults.  As for the plot?  lol jrpg plot.

As for differentiating a "B-game" from a Niche title, that's stupid.  One man's niche game is another one's garbage.   Hell, people here have relatively similar tastes in games (in that most of us are or were fans of JRPGs) and there's rarely an agreement on what's good and what's not.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 02:42:49 PM by For your pleasure Tim Burton presents Schindler's List »

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #405 on: April 27, 2009, 11:40:15 PM »
Also, Final Fantasy Ex Eye Eye Eye looks horrible.

You know, I've thought, "Gee, that looks much worse than the last one" for every FF title starting at 6, except for 9.  And they've turned out pretty damn good on average.  I wouldn't sweart it too much.
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DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #406 on: April 27, 2009, 11:51:43 PM »
He's talking solely about the plot of games, I would reckon, given the mention of Resident Evil 1 without any mention of Resident Evil 1's B-movie level gameplay. 

Given that, WA4 fits the bill.  Only Arnaud and Raquel approach being tolerable characters, and if you're really going to defend the dialogue I will point you to every single god damn moment of Kidz v. Adults.  As for the plot?  lol jrpg plot.

As for differentiating a "B-game" from a Niche title, that's stupid.  One man's niche game is another one's garbage.   Hell, people here have relatively similar tastes in games (in that most of us are or were fans of JRPGs) and there's rarely an agreement on what's good and what's not.

The writer pointed out clearly that plot alone doesn't make a 'B game'...

I'm not trying to defend WA4... even though I'm not even sure there's anything to defend it from. The writer didn't seem to be implying that 'B game' was an insult really.

More confusing definitions. 'Niche title' always struck me as 'openly aimed at one relatively-small demographic'. A skateboarding game full of skateboard celebrity name-dropping and slang isn't aimed at me, it's aimed at skateboarders. That's a niche title. Whether I think it's garbage or not really doesn't change its definition... It might even be a really well-made title for skateboard enthusiasts.

But the definition of 'B game' is harder to pin down. So far, the only thing that I can come up with is hard to disentangle from the definition of 'niche games'. Also, the responses on the forum do point out that one problem with the idea of a B game is that most (if not all) video game plots/genres are basically on the same level (or lower) as B movies. It's hard to find an 'A game' when comparing them to movies.


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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #407 on: April 28, 2009, 01:03:27 AM »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #408 on: April 28, 2009, 01:19:37 AM »
Classifying WA4 as a B game seems just bizarre. It's lauded for its gameplay, and while opinions of the plot vary, I can't think of anyone holding the opinion that the game's plot is bad who considers the game IMPROVED by this.

Personally I have no desire whatsoever to play a "so bad it's good" game. It's excusable for the plot alone (Super Robot Wars you can argue this for a bit. MMXCM. A few others?) but you damn well need good gameplay too; unlike a movie, you are otherwise stuck with this experience for 20+ hours, whereas the B movie is over in under 2. As for gameplay that is "so bad it's good"? Fuck no to that.

So yeah, mocking the concept of the B game, here.

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #409 on: April 28, 2009, 02:10:42 AM »
The whole B movie style of storytelling really only works because you're consuming it passively, I think; regardless of length, you can basically just sit back and snark at the crappy storytelling for the entire time, be it a movie or game or TV series or book or anime show.

On the other hand, bad gameplay is actively frustrating and you can't progress unless you put up with it, which pretty much kills the snark potential. The only time I've seen that work is in LPs where someone else goes through all the punishment for you, reducing the whole thing to a passive experience again.

Shale

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #410 on: April 28, 2009, 03:03:18 AM »
There are games that are enjoyable in the same cheesy way a good B movie is, but the problem is that it's not cheap to make them that way. Devil May Cry 3, for instance. Over-the-top violence punctuated with terrible dialogue and incredible cheese, yes, but the over-the-top violence took a lot of development to perfect. In a movie you can just hire a sufficiently creative or insane choreographer, get "actors" who know how to hit each other properly on camera, and boom, fight scenes. Games don't work like that.
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SnowFire

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #411 on: April 28, 2009, 03:24:59 AM »
Re B-games: Eh, he's on to something, but the unspoken yet hugely important variable is the price point here.  The reason B-movies existed back in the day was that they were cheap to produce - you've got this set lying around and actors on contract, so you dang well better be using them, and fussing about with a script and expensive effects isn't in the cards.  More generally, the price points you want to set are "you pay less for the game than you can sell it for."  B-movies could be sold at mostly the same cost as a real movie, but cost a fraction to produce.  If the fraction of the audience you get is still commensurate or better, you're still making money.  (Alternatively, things like Republic serials could be value-adds to the real movies, and have a price point of near-free since you'd see the serial before the movie.)

So... thinking of it in terms of price...

High cost, high return: World of Warcraft, Halo 3, Metal Gear Solid 4, etc.
Medium cost, medium or better return: Wild Arms 4, Nippon Ichi games.
Low cost, low or better return: "Free" MMORPGs, Wii crapware games.
Very low cost, very low or better return: Flash games, downloadable content.

So...  if B-games he means games that ignore having overly flashy graphics to just crank out a decent game but charge a bunch for it, then he's definitely onto something.  The dream is to release something like Disgaea, which is cheap but became a big seller anyway.  Still, if your game is cheap enough, it doesn't have to sell much.  Or for real cheating, there's something like Final Fantasy X-2 which was cheap yet tapped into a franchise and had huge sales.  Then you have your Heavenly Sword type deals which are really expensive to make, and really need to be a success or else risk sinking your company.

Much as I don't like some of the aspects of their games, Nippon Ichi is probably the best example of doing what I'd imagine as being a B-game; NI caters to hardcore fans who are willing to forgive dated graphics in exchange for a certain brand of humor and gameplay.  I'm sure there are equivalent publishers for medium-quality action games.  The Wii itself is definitely on this train as well; development costs are way lower when you can't tempt yourself into trying to have the absolute most cutting edge HD graphics.  I can't imagine that Sony spent THAT much on Wild Arms 4, but all it needed to do was be a modest success.

The idea of having intentionally subpar gameplay is asking for trouble, though.  Even flashgames need to have good gameplay if they want to be successful.  But I'm not sure that quality of gameplay is always necessarily correlated with the budget dedicated to a project, though there are counterexamples I'm sure, and it's the budget part that will make companies interested in making a "B-game."

metroid composite

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #412 on: April 28, 2009, 07:56:25 AM »
So... thinking of it in terms of price...

High cost, high return: World of Warcraft, Halo 3, Metal Gear Solid 4, etc.
Medium cost, medium or better return: Wild Arms 4, Nippon Ichi games.
Low cost, low or better return: "Free" MMORPGs, Wii crapware games.
Very low cost, very low or better return: Flash games, downloadable content.
Okay, speaking as an industry insider, you're leaving out some significant categories here.

Low cost, high return: Guitar Hero, Singstar, Brain Age, Wii Play, etc.
high cost, low return: Shadow of the Colossus, Okami, etc
Low development cost, medium licencing cost, medium return: Shrek 52417 the official game of the movie

Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #413 on: April 28, 2009, 08:02:27 AM »
GH is still low-cost? I figured the record companies are so desperate for cash they were furiously attempting to rape your delicate rectums with licensing fees.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #414 on: April 28, 2009, 08:05:04 AM »
Okay, speaking as an industry insider, you're leaving out some significant categories here.

Low cost, high return: Guitar Hero, Singstar, Brain Age, Wii Play, etc.
high cost, low return: Shadow of the Colossus, Okami, etc
Low development cost, medium licencing cost, medium return: Shrek 52417 the official game of the movie


SotC and Okami are low return? Does that mean they were sold at a low price or that they didn't sell well initially?

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #415 on: April 28, 2009, 08:21:23 AM »
Shadow of the Colossus sales were pretty solid (significantly better than Ico, notably) though I can easily see it not covering dev costs.

Okami tanked really badly.

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #416 on: April 28, 2009, 10:12:25 AM »
Quote
A B movie is a low-budget commercial motion picture conceived neither as an arthouse film nor as pornography. In its original usage, during the so-called Golden Age of Hollywood, the term more precisely identified a film intended for distribution as the less-publicized, bottom half of a double feature. Although the U.S. production of movies intended as second features largely ceased by the end of the 1950s, the term B movie continued to be used in the broader sense it maintains today. In its post–Golden Age usage, there is ambiguity on both sides of the definition: on the one hand, many B movies display a high degree of craft and aesthetic ingenuity; on the other, the primary interest of many inexpensive exploitation films is prurient. In some cases, both are true.

So, like I said, production value pretty much.  I would class Shrek stuff as Exploitation movie equivalents (which can still be low budget and good, but they are exploiting something to gain their target market).
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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #417 on: April 28, 2009, 02:07:14 PM »
Finally read the article. It was pretty inane, for reasons aptly summarized by the first comment on the page. The writer seems to equate the presence of humor (intentional or otherwise) with B-movie material. He's smart enough to acknowledge that good satire is as tough to write as good drama, but that still doesn't prevent him from spending much of the article addressing this one ridiculous point.

EDIT: Also, Shadow of the Colossus went greatest hits and I generally got the impression that it sold quite well. Were its development costs just stratospheric or something?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 02:18:34 PM by El Cideon »

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #418 on: April 28, 2009, 03:02:51 PM »
That is how the rumor mill goes anyway El Cid.  Fantastic game that cost an arm and a leg to make IIRC.
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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #419 on: April 28, 2009, 03:54:57 PM »
Upon actually reading the article instead of skimming, the whole concept is not worth paying attention to in the first place.  It seems more like they needed to crank out an article and were putting the validity of their Humanities degree (re: Bullshit skill) to the test.

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #420 on: April 28, 2009, 04:20:29 PM »
GH is still low-cost? I figured the record companies are so desperate for cash they were furiously attempting to rape your delicate rectums with licensing fees.

Yeah, me too. I assumed the reason the new games had so many master tracks was because they were profitable enough to be worth the cost, not because the companies were actually being reasonable about licensing.
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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #421 on: April 28, 2009, 07:26:16 PM »
Much as I don't like some of the aspects of their games, Nippon Ichi is probably the best example of doing what I'd imagine as being a B-game; NI caters to hardcore fans who are willing to forgive dated graphics in exchange for a certain brand of humor and gameplay.  I'm sure there are equivalent publishers for medium-quality action games.  The Wii itself is definitely on this train as well; development costs are way lower when you can't tempt yourself into trying to have the absolute most cutting edge HD graphics.  I can't imagine that Sony spent THAT much on Wild Arms 4, but all it needed to do was be a modest success.

<randomjab>I'm pretty sure NISA does "B-localizations" now too.</randomjab>

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #422 on: April 28, 2009, 09:34:54 PM »
GH is still low-cost? I figured the record companies are so desperate for cash they were furiously attempting to rape your delicate rectums with licensing fees.

Yeah, me too. I assumed the reason the new games had so many master tracks was because they were profitable enough to be worth the cost, not because the companies were actually being reasonable about licensing.
Oh, well that's true.  Licencing fees for music are considerably smaller than some of the licencing fees game companies pay, though.

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #423 on: April 28, 2009, 10:59:58 PM »
Metroid composite: Hence the "or better" part of the returns I mentioned.  Wii Play is certainly cheap yet brings in low "or better" returns; a lot better in Wii Play's case.  (Though not really fair to call it crapware like I listed.)  The high cost, low return games are the things that put studios out of business, so don't expect to sell many companies on making them - at best, they're prestige projects like Shenmue that arguably sell the system and build goodwill even if sales aren't as much as hoped.

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2009 - The Re-Vengeance
« Reply #424 on: April 29, 2009, 12:03:08 AM »
<randomjab>I'm pretty sure NISA does "B-localizations" now too.</randomjab>

Them's fightin' words! >:(