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Author Topic: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.  (Read 74906 times)

superaielman

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Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« on: January 07, 2009, 03:56:02 PM »
The current political news of the day is the Burris scandal. It sounds ilke Reid and co are going to relent and let Roland Burris take his senate seat after all. 

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2009/01/ap_newsalert_27.php

I'd say I was shocked, but democratic senate leadership is what it is.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 04:48:24 AM by superaielman »
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Dunefar

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2009, 04:58:52 PM »
Why?

I can't imagine how this is going to do anything but drag in more mud from the Illinois corruption fiasco.  It's like giving the opposition freebies. Maybe they're hoping the entire thing gets swept away by Obama's inauguration?
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2009, 09:42:25 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090107/ap_on_go_co/burris_legal

Why is a conservative watchdog group suing for Burris to be seated?

Group here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_Watch Funded primarily by Richard Mellon Scaife, a conservative billionaire. So uh. Yeah.
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2009, 11:57:10 PM »
Laggy: More drama, more for them to get pants in the air about.

Granted, I'd accuse anyone on any side of this at this point.

superaielman

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2009, 04:02:12 AM »
Quote from: Talkingpointmemo.com
Former senator Ted Stevens (yes, now actually former) is keeping up the fight against his guilty verdict -- and now Sen. Majority Leader Harry Reid has lent him a hand.

Reid told Politico that he believes Stevens shouldn't serve jail time.

    My personal feeling, you guys, I don't know what good that [would do]... He was a real war hero too, you know. He's been punished enough.

Reid said he thinks Stevens was simply behind the curve of modern ethics standards in not disclosing the $250,000 in gifts he received from VECO CEO Bill Allen, saying of the famously internet-unsavvy Uncle Ted that "it's a different world we live in, and Stevens did not understand that."

As I've mentioned to Laggy and Shale, this is something else.
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2009, 01:19:23 PM »
Hm, strange though it is, I'm gonna have to stick up for Harry Reid in both these cases.  I don't like Reid one bit, and I agree he has no spine, but I think he's doing the right things here.  Seating Burriss is the right thing to do because it's pretty clear it would be illegal not to (the secretary of state of IL has pretty much admitted that he lacks the authority not to sign off on the governor's decision).  It is the right of the state of Illinois to seat replacement senators in any manner they deem to do so, as long as those people qualify constitutionally, and there's no doubt Burriss does.  The Senate has no say on how a state decides who gets to be senator.  Blocking Burriss sets a precedent that weakens states' rights to send who they want, and it's only a stone's throw between blocking an appointee based on association and blocking one based on ideology.  Diane Feinstein, who was an early supporter of Burriss, and who I am reluctant to agree with but do in this case, compared it to the UK parliament, which for a while used these kinds of procedural rules to block dissidents from the House of Commons.

As for Ted Stevens I have no doubt he's a crook, but the charges they got him on are a joke.  Not declaring gifts is just the rich politician's version of 'forgetting' to declare something on your tax return.  Hardly worth jail time.  Throw in the legitimate concern of whether the prosecution was properly conducted, and I'd want to err on the light side, too.

Here's a link about allegations of impropriety in the Stevens case.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/12/stevens_whistle-blower.php
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2009, 04:34:06 PM »
No, no. Reid's not doing the wrong thing by seating him - you're right that there's no legal grounds not to. He's a fucking retard for posturing about it beforehand when anyone who's ever taken Constitutional Law could have told him that if Burris wanted to take the seat there wasn't a thing he could do to block him. He drummed up opposition to the guy to the point where polls had a majority of people saying he shouldn't be sworn in, and then reversed himself (viz. Super's reaction). It's the political equivalent of spending days meticulously building a wall by hand, brick by brick, for the sole purpose of running headfirst into it.
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2009, 06:54:47 PM »
What bothers me here more than anything is how screwed up America's political system is.

In Canada if there was an open seat for the house because someone left for another job, then there would be a local bi-election.  The fact that a govenor is appointing an elected official strikes me as pretty WTF-worthy. 

I'm okay with appointed positions in the governmental structure; they serve a role...but elected positions should be elected, and appointed positions should be appointed.

Dunefar

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2009, 07:15:55 PM »
What bothers me here more than anything is how screwed up America's political system is.

In Canada if there was an open seat for the house because someone left for another job, then there would be a local bi-election.  The fact that a govenor is appointing an elected official strikes me as pretty WTF-worthy. 

I'm okay with appointed positions in the governmental structure; they serve a role...but elected positions should be elected, and appointed positions should be appointed.

It's basically an interim appointment until Obama's term ends. This varies state by state, I believe?

---

And yeah. Reid is doing the absolute wrong thing. He might be doing the legally correct thing, but there's no moral rightness with accepting the appointment of a corrupted official. One who tried to sell this very seat and is in the process of being duly prosecuted invariably taints the selection. The law can and needs to go take a hike here; barring that, the Illinois constitution needs to be amended.

I wonder what drugs Reid is on to do this about face. It makes no sense.
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superaielman

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2009, 11:26:10 PM »
Quote from: Notmiki
As for Ted Stevens I have no doubt he's a crook, but the charges they got him on are a joke.  Not declaring gifts is just the rich politician's version of 'forgetting' to declare something on your tax return.  Hardly worth jail time.  Throw in the legitimate concern of whether the prosecution was properly conducted, and I'd want to err on the light side, too.

Most of those are fair objections, but Reid picked the wrong reasons to defend him. He did serve his country, but it doesn't prelude him from punishment. The way Reid says it leaves a bad taste in my mouth- it really sounds like he's just sticking up for one of the old boys of congress.
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NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2009, 12:24:07 AM »
What bothers me here more than anything is how screwed up America's political system is.

In Canada if there was an open seat for the house because someone left for another job, then there would be a local bi-election.  The fact that a govenor is appointing an elected official strikes me as pretty WTF-worthy. 

I'm okay with appointed positions in the governmental structure; they serve a role...but elected positions should be elected, and appointed positions should be appointed.

It's basically an interim appointment until Obama's term ends. This varies state by state, I believe?

It does.  totally up to the state's legislature to determine how it's done.  And mc, US politicians are wary about special elections, for better or worse, because voters turn out in such slim numbers for them.  Appointments are also useful because they can be done quickly if necessary.  I think ideally governors should have short-term power to appoint someone, say 90 days, followed by a special election.

No, no. Reid's not doing the wrong thing by seating him - you're right that there's no legal grounds not to. He's a fucking retard for posturing about it beforehand when anyone who's ever taken Constitutional Law could have told him that if Burris wanted to take the seat there wasn't a thing he could do to block him. He drummed up opposition to the guy to the point where polls had a majority of people saying he shouldn't be sworn in, and then reversed himself (viz. Super's reaction). It's the political equivalent of spending days meticulously building a wall by hand, brick by brick, for the sole purpose of running headfirst into it.

Well put.  Harry Reid is a bit more savvy than that, usually.  My guess?  Reid thought Obama would have his back, but Obama decided the other way.  The means by which Reid was going to exclude Burris are constitutionally questionable, to say the least, but federal judges would probably do everything in their power to prevent the case from coming to trial because of its political nature (one lesson Karl Rove taught us the hard way).

Now, Reid couldn't simply embrace Burris even if he wanted to, because Republicans would skewer him for it.  Senate Republicans have declared their intention to grill Burris about possible foul play regarding his appointment.  They know this is political gold for them.

On the other hand, if Reid fought Burris all the way and lost, that would  probably end worse for the Dems than this current scenario.  I don't think Reid played things exactly right, but it was a pretty bum hand.

Reid picked the wrong reasons to defend him. He did serve his country, but it doesn't prelude him from punishment. The way Reid says it leaves a bad taste in my mouth- it really sounds like he's just sticking up for one of the old boys of congress.

I kinda got that impression too, but emphasis on old.  "it's a different world we live in, and Stevens did not understand that."  Sounds a lot like "Grampa can't help talking about African Americans that way.  He's from a different age."
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 12:35:53 AM by NotMiki »
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2009, 02:17:34 AM »
Quote
It does.  totally up to the state's legislature to determine how it's done.  And mc, US politicians are wary about special elections, for better or worse, because voters turn out in such slim numbers for them.  Appointments are also useful because they can be done quickly if necessary.  I think ideally governors should have short-term power to appoint someone, say 90 days, followed by a special election.

It seems pointless to complain about low voter turnout and then turn around and use a method which has a voter turnout of 1. In theory it would be possible for the governor to appoint someone wildly unrepresentative of the state (something which isn't possible in an election even with lowered voting numbers), and this person could sit for up to six years. Not to mention the potential for corruption, which, well, we've just seen.

I'd tend to agree that your solution is probably the best, though. Although I'm not an expert on senate policy; if the senate can function just fine with one or two fewer senators then you could just leave the seat empty until an election fills it. EDIT: Though thinking on it, the symbolism of leaving one state down a senator for an extended period of time is probably something to be avoided, even if the practical concerns aren't as pressing.

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NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2009, 03:02:32 AM »
Quote
It does.  totally up to the state's legislature to determine how it's done.  And mc, US politicians are wary about special elections, for better or worse, because voters turn out in such slim numbers for them.  Appointments are also useful because they can be done quickly if necessary.  I think ideally governors should have short-term power to appoint someone, say 90 days, followed by a special election.

It seems pointless to complain about low voter turnout and then turn around and use a method which has a voter turnout of 1. In theory it would be possible for the governor to appoint someone wildly unrepresentative of the state (something which isn't possible in an election even with lowered voting numbers), and this person could sit for up to six years. Not to mention the potential for corruption, which, well, we've just seen.

I'd tend to agree that your solution is probably the best, though. Although I'm not an expert on senate policy; if the senate can function just fine with one or two fewer senators then you could just leave the seat empty until an election fills it. EDIT: Though thinking on it, the symbolism of leaving one state down a senator for an extended period of time is probably something to be avoided, even if the practical concerns aren't as pressing.

I don't mind governors making appointments, because governors are themselves elected officials.  In New York, for example, the current governor is very attentive to which candidates are liked by constituents because he is planning on running for reelection in 2010.  It's worth keeping in mind that Blagojevich was recently reelected even though there were already serious ethics allegations against him.  They knew or strongly suspected he was a crook and they brought him back anyway.  He almost, almost still has a mandate.

The senate can function fine without a few less Senators, but that's not the point of making quick replacements.  The state is entitled to that representation.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 03:04:06 AM by NotMiki »
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2009, 04:24:12 AM »
Minor correction: The maximum time an appointed senator could sit is slightly more than 2 years, depending on the state, not 6 years.  If the state doesn't hold a special election after a senator leaves office (which it totally can by the 17th Amendment), it *must* hold that election in the next general, that is, two years later.  So if a senator were to die a month before election day such that another election couldn't be arranged in time, and the state didn't hold a special election, the appointee would sit for 2 and a half years until the next general.

This is part of the reason why Hillary Clinton's senate seat isn't overly attractive to serious Republican challengers (of which there is only one in New York, Giuliani, maybe.).  She was reelected in 2006, so there'll be a special election in 2010, and then the normal election for the seat in 2012.  Part of the reason people take Senate races seriously is that if you win it, it's yours for six years, but it'd be a mere 2-year hold for a theoretical Republican victory.  Then it'd have to be immediately fought over again in an election year, and election years increase turnout.  In a very Democratic state like New York, that means more low-information voters who just vote a straight ticket, so presidential election years tend to be bad news for downticket candidates in states not a close match ideologically.  (That is, it's bad for Republicans in blue states and bad for Democrats in red states, moreso than in off-years.)

Anyway, special elections are notoriously bad at picking good candidates thanks to the low turnout, and furthermore they cost money.  I say just let an appointee take the slot, but have some kind of commonsense rule that can forbid charades like the Roland Burris show - maybe some kind of "the legislature can veto any appointment the governor makes, but only with a 2/3 majority, and furthermore lack of legislative action within 14 days = appointment goes through."  Man, what the hell.  All I can say is that Burris better get primaried out - the Democrats will probably lose with a desperate mediocrity like him on top of the ticket.  I think Carol Mosley-Braun managed to do that in 1998 in Illinois after her corrupt and ineffective time in the Senate.  Which was a shame, since she was the first black female senator, but nevertheless an awful one.

On the other hand, I'm not a fan of too much concentration of power, and blue state moderate Republicans are probably healthy for the Republicans as a whole.  So maybe if the Illinois Democrats lose in 2010 it won't be so bad after all.

superaielman

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2009, 04:54:01 PM »
http://www.dcexaminer.com/local/011609-Report_Kaines_cuts_would_yank_700_million_from_schools.html


Tim Kaine certainly isn't pulling punches with his budget proposals. Much as the education cuts suck, he's doing the right thing and trying to prevent the state from going further in debt. 
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Dunefar

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2009, 06:07:14 AM »
He's trying as best he can. That's all I'll say.

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Obama's inauguration is a couple of days away now. What do you guys think he's going to do within his first months in office? It'll set the tone for the coming year and has many a possibility. What he chooses to prioritize says quite a bit about him as well. So what do you guys think?
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2009, 05:13:57 PM »
Since the economy is basically the only issue people care about for the time being, and economic woes are the strong suit of Democrats, I would be highly surprised if his first 100 days did much else besides try and get the bailout money. Whether or not that will work is yet to be determined. If he gets that done and still has time to spare, my guess is on working on some sort of national health care system.
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2009, 12:06:49 AM »
Ugh.  I'm not going to get into great detail about all my feelings on the Israeli/Gaza war, but this is beyond the pale.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2009/01/exchange_between_bill_moyers_a.html

Bill Moyers produces a program critical of Israel's actions.  In response, Abraham Foxman, director of the Anti-Defamation League calls him an anti-Semite.  I'm sick to death of the canard that criticizing Israel is the same thing as hating Jews.  Not that I expected any better from the ADL, for whom the interests of Jews are defined as the intersts of right-wingers in Israel.  They refused to acknowledge the Armenian genocide because it is politically inconvenient to Isreal to do so. (There was an incident the summer before last where a town in MA with a large Armenian population got in an interesting fight with the ADL over just that.  I'll dig up the article if anyone wants.)

As for my own opinion of what's going on, I wholeheartedly agree with this assessment of the situation:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/howard-schweber/on-proportionality_b_157846.html
« Last Edit: January 18, 2009, 12:12:32 AM by NotMiki »
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2009, 03:04:46 AM »
Okay, this is old.  Really, really old.  ...Like 9 years ago old, but...AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/03/21/the_anatomy_of_a_smear_campaign/

Quote
Having run Senator John McCain's campaign for president, I can recount a textbook example of a smear made against McCain in South Carolina during the 2000 presidential primary. We had just swept into the state from New Hampshire, where we had racked up a shocking, 19-point win over the heavily favored George W. Bush. What followed was a primary campaign that would make history for its negativity.

In South Carolina, Bush Republicans were facing an opponent who was popular for his straight talk and Vietnam war record. They knew that if McCain won in South Carolina, he would likely win the nomination. With few substantive differences between Bush and McCain, the campaign was bound to turn personal. The situation was ripe for a smear.

It didn't take much research to turn up a seemingly innocuous fact about the McCains: John and his wife, Cindy, have an adopted daughter named Bridget. Cindy found Bridget at Mother Theresa's orphanage in Bangladesh, brought her to the United States for medical treatment, and the family ultimately adopted her. Bridget has dark skin.

Anonymous opponents used "push polling" to suggest that McCain's Bangladeshi born daughter was his own, illegitimate black child. In push polling, a voter gets a call, ostensibly from a polling company, asking which candidate the voter supports. In this case, if the "pollster" determined that the person was a McCain supporter, he made statements designed to create doubt about the senator.

Thus, the "pollsters" asked McCain supporters if they would be more or less likely to vote for McCain if they knew he had fathered an illegitimate child who was black. In the conservative, race-conscious South, that's not a minor charge. We had no idea who made the phone calls, who paid for them, or how many calls were made. Effective and anonymous: the perfect smear campaign.

I wasn't expecting to come across something that would make me like McCain more and dislike Bush more but...there you go.  *headdesk*

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2009, 04:51:53 AM »
If it'll make you feel any better, or something, McCain eventually hired the fellow who ran Bush's SC campaign.  That was during the summer, Junish, when McCain was in reinventing mode.
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2009, 01:22:07 AM »
I'm not sure "more cynical, and therefore less outraged" counts as "better."
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2009, 08:28:01 AM »
It makes me feel warm inside to know that by trying to mimic his old opponents tactics caused him to lose his campaign due to it being at that point that the whole thing went tits up.
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2009, 07:55:36 PM »
Care of Laggy, Obama's first acts in office:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090121/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_executive_pay

Heavy restrictions on lobbyists (yay!)
Some symbolic salary gestures.
Vague promises to push freedom of information harder (tentative yay?)

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2009, 09:20:02 PM »
Quote
Just because a government agency has the legal power to keep information private does not mean that it should, Obama said. Reporters and public-interest groups often make use of the law to explore how and why government decisions were made; they are often stymied as agencies claim legal exemptions to the law.

And this man was supposedly representing a Big Government ideology?
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2009, 12:27:54 AM »
Quote
Just because a government agency has the legal power to keep information private does not mean that it should, Obama said. Reporters and public-interest groups often make use of the law to explore how and why government decisions were made; they are often stymied as agencies claim legal exemptions to the law.

And this man was supposedly representing a Big Government ideology?

Dick Cheney once encouraged an aide to use an as-yet untested provision of the Patriot act, saying "What's the point in having power if you don't use it?"  Invading Iraq without UN approval, signing a treaty with the present Iraqi government without Congress' approval.  Asserting executive privilege at the same time as he asserts that his office isn't beholden to laws governing the executive branch.  Slapping top secret on even the most innocuous paperwork.  These things weren't means to him, they were ends.  What's the point in having power if you don't use it?  A fitting epitaph, I'm sure he would agree.

George W, who so likes to remind us that he doesn't read opinion polls, encouraged the Palestinians to have a democratic election, over Israel's strenuous objections.  Hamas won, surprising no one who looks at polls.  George W then (along with Israel) supported a coup attempt by Fatah, and cajoled banks into not doing business with Hamas, and supported Israel's complete blockade of Gaza.  A man unfailingly supportive of democracy unless, of course, the bad guys win.  Then it's time to overthrow democratically elected governments.  I don't read opinion polls to tell me what to do.  He said that one on purpose.  Etch it on his grave.

Let's talk about the office of legal counsel, and you'll get an idea of what Obama thinks government should look like.  The OLC is a branch of the justice department that is responsible for producing binding legal opinions on what the executive branch can and cannot do.  President wants to do something, OLC says no, it can't be (legally) done.  John Yoo's famous torture memos, proclaiming the Geneva conventions "quaint" and absolving the president of a need to follow them, were the product of this office.

Obama has appointed Dawn Johnsen, David Barron, and Marty Lederman to the office.  To say they believe the president's power is more limited in scope than what the Bush administration did would be the understatement of the year.  Among the pool of prominent lawyers who would qualify for the jobs, you simply could not find harsher or more vocal critics of the idea of a powerful executive branch than these three.  But don't take my word for it.  Here's Glenn Greenwald, who frequently criticizes the NYT and Washington Post editorial boards for their extreme right-wing views.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/20/olc/index.html

Maybe it's just the headiness of the inauguration, but with these appointments, I've never believed in Obama more than I do now.

EDIT: this helps.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/washington/22gitmo.html?hp

EDIT 2: another take on the OLC.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_01/016537.php

« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 01:13:57 AM by NotMiki »
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!