Author Topic: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.  (Read 74547 times)

superaielman

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #125 on: March 03, 2009, 01:51:55 AM »
Read the comments in the blog below the story (Seriously), there are several good ones. I like the idea of basing bonuses around progress made- say if you have a 4th grader and you get them from a 1st to a 3rd grade level, you should still get a bonus. Whereas if someone gets a 4th grader at a 5th grade level and they finish the year at a 5/6th grade level, they shouldn't get nearly the same bonus in spite of making progress.

I know my middle school did this, but do schools split classes in the grades up by development/testing level or is it more randomized?
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Grefter

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #126 on: March 03, 2009, 08:04:32 AM »
I don't know if it is necessarilly the optimal overall goal to completely eliminate tenure or the have an evaluation system in place for teachers, but I do consider it fairly overarching change which is exactly what is needed.  Having good teachers have a chance to increase their pay and earn tenure again is a nice idea.
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Cotigo

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #127 on: March 03, 2009, 01:41:26 PM »
Middle school here randomizes it, High School only splits them up for Honours/Advanced Placement classes.

Hey!  That's perfect.  Let's just have these TESTS, you know, like the AP tests, every year that gauges how students are doing.  Look at how good these AP classes are for preparing people for college and life and Allah.  THIS IS A PERFECT PLAN.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 01:45:02 PM by President Bill Richardson »

NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #128 on: March 03, 2009, 11:00:09 PM »
Tests are of limited use when you start with a fairly well-educated student body and want to see who's the very best educated, but when what you really need to know is whether a huge chunk of your students are still functionally illiterate or not, they have their uses.
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metroid composite

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #129 on: March 04, 2009, 12:02:38 AM »
The big thing about tests is that you can't weight too much on them.

I saw a study that showed that in school districts with a higher number of standardized tests throughout the years of education, that students from such districts came out worse........on the SAT test.  It would be one thing if studying for a lot of tests made you worse at some vague creative thinking measure (I'm sure there's evidence for that too) but the SAT is, itself, a standardized test.

Basic literacy tests are an effective measure, but only because students don't do any specific preparation for them.  If you change things so that teachers jobs hang in the balance of basic literacy tests, then teachers probably will push students to study for them.

In other words, normally they're a useful tool for a teacher to gauge the students they're working with at the start of the year.  Turning these tests into a tool for administrators to judge performance of teachers has a number of negative side-effects.  One additional point, the huffington post article spends a lot of time talking about attracting smarter teachers--to use myself as an example, though, while I'm "smart" and have interest in teaching, I am really not interested in teaching in a test-driven environment.  While you can weed-out some bad teachers this way, you're also going to lose the interest of some potentially good teachers.

NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #130 on: March 04, 2009, 01:07:19 AM »
While you can weed-out some bad teachers this way, you're also going to lose the interest of some potentially good teachers.

Yeah, that is an issue.  And higher wages will surely dilute the population of Quixotic do-gooders and increase the mercenary teach-to-the-test-ers, out to milk student grades for a quick buck.  It's tricky.  Obviously we all want a host of good teachers in the long term, and not relying so much on testing may be the better long-term answer, but I think what we need to concentrate on is what will produce the best short-term result.  DC's school system is in shambles.  The kids in that system are only gonna get one chance.  I look at it this way: if you start with a struggling school system, would you rather have a body of teachers that included some great ones but some terrible ones as well, or would you rather have a body that was a homogenized average.  If the more diverse body of teachers could produce some wonderfully-prepared students but would leave others illiterate, and the average teachers could get every student to a passable level, I'd take the second in a heartbeat.
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metroid composite

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #131 on: March 04, 2009, 06:59:10 AM »
I can really see three sides to the DC thing:

* "How could it get any worse?  We should try something drastic, as we've got nothing to lose!"

* "The more you mess with the system the less stable it will be--will someone three years from now say 'those policies are not giving good enough results, we need to change them again.'?"

* "Socioeconomically DC is ****ed.  So much of education comes from the parents, not the teachers, and the parents aren't changing.  How much of a difference will teacher changes really make?"

Grefter

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #132 on: March 04, 2009, 07:54:04 AM »
When your basic literacy levels are drastically low like they are well... is teaching them to pass literacy tests necessarily that bad?  Getting the kids to be able to read is a big step in the right direction.
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NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #133 on: March 05, 2009, 03:52:47 AM »
In other political news, the DCCC finally got the RNC back.  So our politicians aren't mature.  At least they have senses of humor.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 11:58:13 PM by NotMiki »
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #134 on: March 08, 2009, 07:49:56 PM »
http://www.inewsit.com/video/gallery/Footage-of-Israeli-Military-Shooting-Gaza-Farmers

........

And people fucking wonder why there's an anti-Israel sentiment in the Middle East.

Grefter

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #135 on: March 08, 2009, 11:58:17 PM »
Not anyone that is paying attention wonders about that.
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NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #136 on: March 09, 2009, 12:14:10 AM »
This is me being polite.  Israel, completely irrespective of its status and  legitimacy as a country, makes a lot of unforced errors when it comes to public perception.  I don't believe if they were better behaved, not using white phosphorous on civilians, not bombing UN hospitals intentionally, not engaging in assassinations that are guaranteed to incur civilian casualties, that they would be better liked in the Mideast, but that's not the point.  Popularity is not what should keep a country from committing atrocities.  Certain prevalent elements in Israel have simply given up trying to be moral.
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NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #137 on: March 10, 2009, 11:12:43 PM »
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InfinityDragon

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #138 on: March 11, 2009, 07:38:37 AM »
At least he spent a good chunk of time describing the ultimate reform needed for good education with that little anecdote: better parents. Everything else is secondary (good teachers) or tertiary (money).

That said, being dismissive of "teaching to the test" is idiotic. The primary reason educators see the need for education reform is due to low performance on standardized tests by American students. There are other factors at play, like abysmal graduation rates or disproportionate spending, but those are potential causes of poor education rather than a benchmark to measure education quality. As long as those standardized tests are valid--that is they measure what they purport to measure--then there is nothing wrong with using tests as a benchmark. Moreover, American performance on those standardized tests has markedly mproved since NCLB, which means if those tests are valid, then teaching to the test is actually a good thing.

Granted, whether or not those tests are valid has not yet been determined...but to be entirely dismissive of the concept is just plain stupid.

Grefter

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #139 on: March 11, 2009, 12:17:49 PM »
You can't get much more solid standardised test to show that your education is horrible than literacy tests, like the ones that came up earlier ID.  The ones with insanely abysmal pass rates.

I don't really think you need to look any further personally.
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metroid composite

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #140 on: March 11, 2009, 09:56:13 PM »
That said, being dismissive of "teaching to the test" is idiotic. The primary reason educators see the need for education reform is due to low performance on standardized tests by American students.
And like I said, regions that have multiple standardized tests in multiple years (like having standardized tests in grade 3, 6, 9, and 12) perform WORSE on the SAT--another standardized test.  There's evidence that "let's teach to the test more often" will...help you for the grade 3 test, but probably hurt you for the grade 12 test.

You can't get much more solid standardised test to show that your education is horrible than literacy tests, like the ones that came up earlier ID.  The ones with insanely abysmal pass rates.
Can you provide a link to these abysmal results?  I wanted to get more details, but all I could find on Google was this kind of stuff:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/us.html
"99% literacy"

http://www.nifl.gov/nifl/facts/reading_facts.html#sages1-2
Mixture of statistics, some of which sound good some of which sound bad....
On the one hand:
"On a combined reading literacy scale, U.S. 15 year olds performed about as well on average as most of the 27 participating OECD countries."
On the other hand:
"By age 17, only about 1 in 17 seventeen year olds can read and gain information from specialized text, for example the science section in the local newspaper."

Basically, stuff I managed to google implied that America is about on-par with most first-world countries for literacy (although like all first-world countries, things could still be better).

Grefter

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #141 on: March 12, 2009, 09:05:49 AM »
I meant in the DC results listed in the other article.  And you know my tendency to consider below grade level reading as not being very literate >_>

Quote
n 2005, the most recent year for which comparative data are available, more than half of all eighth graders in the District system, 52 percent, had below grade-level reading skills. The District's closest competitor was Mississippi, at 40 percent, while the national average was 27 percent, according to the National Center for Education Statistics. Similarly, 66 percent of District eighth graders had below minimum grade-level scores in math, compared to 46 percent in Mississippi and 30 percent nationally.

For the specific statement.  50% below grade reading level in the worst case is pretty abysmal and is something I am glad is getting looked at nationally, because well more being looked at education is great.

Edit - It is probably me using wrong terms and having stupid high standards more than anything else met.
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metroid composite

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #142 on: March 12, 2009, 08:58:30 PM »
Wait, we're talking about the DC district again?  I thought we were talking about Obama's nation-wide plan--my bad.

I'll happily admit that DC is not within my field of expertise.  Classes where 80% of the students are below grade level in English I have encountered--namely immigrant neighborhoods where most of the kids have arrived in the past 1-3 years from non-English speaking countries.  DC's problem is poverty, though, not "I don't speak English".

Grefter

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #143 on: March 12, 2009, 11:09:08 PM »
We are talking in general, DC is just high profile and we have quotes here.  Even in a nation wide strategy, specific worst in country bit will be relevant anyway.
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NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #144 on: March 13, 2009, 02:19:52 AM »
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/education/jan-june09/duncan_03-12.html

Here's a News Hour segment on Obama's education chief.  He has a massive discretionary budget, and everyone hopes hew knows what to do with it.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 02:23:02 AM by NotMiki »
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metroid composite

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #145 on: March 14, 2009, 05:04:51 AM »
Quote
Duncan has made it clear that he intends to use that $5 billion to pay the best teachers more and to pay extra to those willing to teach in our worst schools.

Very interesting about extra pay for teaching in troubled schools--that's at least the more sensible direction (and the opposite of the current system).

Quote
He also wants higher pay for math and science teachers
Math and science?  Why?  Particularly math is puzzling here--you have so little marking and so little prep compared to most subjects.  Math blocks are already kinda fought-over from all I hear.

Yes, there is a huge difference between good math teachers and mediocre math teachers, but offering money...while it might attract a few more good people, it's also likely to attract a whole lot of teachers who aren't enthusiastic about math but are enthusiastic about money.

Quote
and more charter schools.

Okay, so looking up what "charter school" actually means in America, it's a public school with fewer government regulations (so can create different curriculums and stuff) but on the condition that the government can close them down if they perform poorly.
On the one hand, this encourages innovation in education.  This is good.
On the other hand, statistics so far suggest charter schools might actually perform worse than public schools:
http://www.ed.gov/rschstat/eval/choice/pcsp-final/execsum.html
"In five case study states, charter schools are less likely to meet state performance standards than traditional public schools. It is impossible to know from this study whether that is because of the performance of the schools, the prior achievement of the students, or some other factor."

I mean, arguably they could be more aggressive about closing down schools, but closing a school is really shitty as an option (you're giving up a whole lot of real-estate and built-up infrastructure). 

Personally I take a more evolution theory approach to it--most mutations are crappy, so these aren't going to perform well on average, but successful mutations will be incorporated into the mainstream.  However, in evolution there's a delicate balance between how many mutants you have and how many non-mutants you have.  Too many mutants hurt too much; too few mutants makes you stagnant.

Quote
Also on his agenda, early education programs for poor kids.

Early education has huge scientific backing for being immensely important, so...good.

Quote
I think the idea of 50 states doing things, you know, their own way doesn't quite make sense.

Interesting.  Even Canada doesn't have, say, nationalized curriculum; that's still handled at the province level.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 05:11:26 AM by metroid composite »

NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #146 on: March 14, 2009, 06:14:43 AM »
US education is highly localized.  I'm a bit surprised he said that about centralization because it's at odds with what other superintendents seem to think: that he'll let different districts with different needs do things their own way.

Charter schools in the US are government-funded schools with greater control over how they organize things.  They are traditionally backed by conservatives, as they are a challenge to the power of teachers' unions, which are big Democratic supporters (it's true that you could make an argument that charter schools are more ideologically appealing to conservatives in their own rights, but I think that the fact they push back against unions and tenure is a bigger factor in Republican support for them).  Charter schools can be excellent and innovative, but they are problematic for a few reasons: first, as you point out, they don't always work out.  Second, students have to enter a lottery to get into them.  Third and most importantly, they take money away from other schools in the area.  A big concern with charter schools is that they will heighten inequality in an area, based on who gets to go to them.  Statistically speaking, the poorer a student is, the less likely their parents are to enter them in the lottery, so you have a situation where inequality becomes based on privilege, as is already the case in college admissions (where bad schools lack the infrastructure to support students by advising them on applications, scholarships they qualify for, letters of recommendation, etc).

Obama's support for charter schools and merit pay should by all rights have the teachers' unions crying bloody murder, but they largely haven't been, even though they've been vehemently opposed to both for a while, generally speaking.  I'm not sure if they're just deferring to him because he's the only show in town, because they agree with him politically in so many other ways, or because they believe that if a liberal Democrat isn't willing to support them, they may really be off base.  It's interesting, whatever the reason is.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 06:18:03 AM by NotMiki »
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #147 on: March 14, 2009, 09:24:52 AM »
Quote
Math and science?  Why?  Particularly math is puzzling here--you have so little marking and so little prep compared to most subjects.  Math blocks are already kinda fought-over from all I hear.

Yes, there is a huge difference between good math teachers and mediocre math teachers, but offering money...while it might attract a few more good people, it's also likely to attract a whole lot of teachers who aren't enthusiastic about math but are enthusiastic about money.

Dunno how it works in the US, but you're pretty wrong about the situation in BC, and from what I've heard BC's situation is common elsewhere. Math's one of the most desired teaching positions because few people study mathematics in the first place and fewer of those are attracted to teaching for whatever reason, so there are very few math teachers to pick from (for a subject that everyone in Grades 8-11 has to take, a distinction it shares with Social Studies and English, the two subjects with the highest teacher availability by far). It's a position schools have a problem filling. Science is in a similar boat, though not quite as bad. Except Physics, which is certainly as bad if not worse. (Physics was the only type of secondary teacher UBC had less enrollment in this year than Math.)

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metroid composite

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #148 on: March 14, 2009, 05:14:29 PM »
Huh, that's what I get for relying on anecdotal evidence provided by an English and Socials teacher, I guess >_>

The more I think about it, the less I'm bothered by Science getting extra pay anyhow.  High School Science tends to involve letting teenagers use Bunsen burners and dissection knives.  Teenagers.  Fire.  Pointy objects.  Yyyyyyeah.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 05:18:51 PM by metroid composite »

metroid composite

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #149 on: March 19, 2009, 05:09:03 PM »
Speaking of DC,

"D.C. HIV/AIDS Rate Higher Than West Africa"

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=102039372