Author Topic: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.  (Read 74525 times)

NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #150 on: March 25, 2009, 01:30:13 AM »
http://www.365gay.com/video/frank-discussion-on-the-new-gay-agenda-in-washington/

Barney Frank courts a little controversy.  Well, a lot.  Refers to a certain supreme court justice as "That homophobe Antonin Scalia."  Eek.  Had a pretty spirited debate last night on the appropriateness/accuracy of the statement

Best evidence (as far as I've seen) of Scalia's feelings on the matter can be summed up in his bitter dissent in Lawrence v. Texas, in which the majority struck down a Texas sodomy law.  Scalia complained that:

     "Today’s opinion is the product of a Court, which is the product of a law-profession culture, that has largely signed on to the so-called homosexual agenda, by which I mean the agenda promoted by some homosexual activists directed at eliminating the moral opprobrium that has traditionally attached to homosexual conduct. I noted in an earlier opinion the fact that the American Association of Law Schools (to which any reputable law school must seek to belong) excludes from membership any school that refuses to ban from its job-interview facilities a law firm (no matter how small) that does not wish to hire as a prospective partner a person who openly engages in homosexual conduct. See Romer, supra, at 653.

So get that?  The majority, who he finds disingenuous in this case, has signed onto the homosexual agenda, as has the AALS by dint of their non-discrimination laws.  I think based on the writing you can take it as Scalia's personal opinion that anti-discrimination laws that protect homosexuals are unnecessary and unwarranted.

That's the important part, but read on if you want to hear me nitpick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-102.ZD.html

Scalia strikes me as slightly disingenuous here, but more importantly he's openly contemptuous of attempts to change the law concerning homosexuals through lawsuits.

From the dissent:

"It is clear from this that the Court has taken sides in the culture war, departing from its role of assuring, as neutral observer, that the democratic rules of engagement are observed. Many Americans do not want persons who openly engage in homosexual conduct as partners in their business, as scoutmasters for their children, as teachers in their children’s schools, or as boarders in their home. They view this as protecting themselves and their families from a lifestyle that they believe to be immoral and destructive. The Court views it as “discrimination” which it is the function of our judgments to deter."


So Scalia presumably believes that discriminating against homosexual conduct (and the people who engage in it) don't count as discrimination because most Americans agree with those positions.

"[The majority] is seemingly unaware that... in most States what the Court calls “discrimination” against those who engage in homosexual acts is perfectly legal"


So the court should be using the basis of state (and federal) laws to determine what Americans deem to be discrimination or not.

"Let me be clear that I have nothing against homosexuals, or any other group, promoting their agenda through normal democratic means. Social perceptions of sexual and other morality change over time, and every group has the right to persuade its fellow citizens that its view of such matters is the best. That homosexuals have achieved some success in that enterprise is attested to by the fact that Texas is one of the few remaining States that criminalize private, consensual homosexual acts. ...What Texas has chosen to do is well within the range of traditional democratic action, and its hand should not be stayed through the invention of a brand-new “constitutional right” by a Court that is impatient of democratic change."


Texas should be allowed to make the laws it wants.

---

So get this straight.  Laws discriminating generally against homosexual conduct in many states constitute evidence of the will of the American people and must be considered by the court when determining if something is legally discrimination.  But a marked lack of laws barring the very thing in question (only 4 states at the point had laws specifically barring homosexual sodomy) apparently only constitute evidence of the homosexual agenda at work, and need not be considered.

EDIT:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/24/frank-to-bailout-proteste_n_178479.html

Scalia's not the only target of Frank's ire.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 02:47:33 AM by NotMiki »
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InfinityDragon

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #151 on: March 26, 2009, 12:01:43 AM »
Quote
Barney Frank courts a little controversy.

Barney Frank is a fucking moron. You'd think a Harvard Law grad would know a little bit about how the Supreme Court works and Constitutional Law, but I guess evey barrel has its rotten apple.

Quote
That's the important part, but read on if you want to hear me nitpick.

Actually, that part is just dicta within a dissent and can largely be disregarded since it has no legal ramifications. Its largely just Scalia pontificating on what he feels is the incorrect method by which the other Justices came to their majority opinion.

Quote
I think based on the writing you can take it as Scalia's personal opinion that anti-discrimination laws that protect homosexuals are unnecessary and unwarranted.

Scalia's opinion is at least partially grounded in reality. Sexual orientation isn't a protected class in Constitutional Law, meaning they shouldn't receive special privileges from a Constitutional standpoint. That said, state law and private action is allowed to be more protective than the Constitution, so the AALS is allowed to have such protective provisions in place.

More importantly, however, in that phrase Scalia isn't saying that his personal opinion is that such provisions are unwarranted. He's saying that those provisions have created a culture in law schools (and by extension, were in place where the other Justices studied/taught law) that protect sexual orientation, and that this culture of protection has caused the other Justices to give protection to homosexuals that isn't based in the realities of Fundamental Rights or Equal Protection jurisprudence. Whether or not Scalia is correct here is up for debate (personally, I never really encountered such a culture or agenda).

Quote
Scalia strikes me as slightly disingenuous here, but more importantly he's openly contemptuous of attempts to change the law concerning homosexuals through lawsuits.

Technically, his contempt is deserved. The point of courts is not to change or create laws, but to interpret laws (this includes the ability to strike down state laws that run contrary to federal law, and strike down federal and state laws that run contrary to the Constitution). Scalia does seem to forget, however, that using the courts to strike down a law isn't necessarily changing a law so much as asking that law to be removed completely. Once that law is stuck down, an attempt to re-engage the legislative process can and should be used to make a law that doesn't overstep its bounds.

Quote
So Scalia presumably believes that discriminating against homosexual conduct (and the people who engage in it) don't count as discrimination because most Americans agree with those positions.

Actually, what Scalia is doing is setting up the reasoning behind the Texas law as part of a Rational Basis test. The key thing to remember is that a law, even a discriminatory one, is okay so long as it passes the appropriate standard of review. Since Scalia does not agree with the court that homosexuality is an exercise of Constitutionally protected "liberty," the test he applies is rational basis--the law must be rationally related to a legitimate state interest.

Scalia's statement here is his argument that laws that protect morality are a legitimate state interest, which is correct.

He's also criticizing the majority opinion on its use of "discrimination" because discrimination does NOT have any play at all under "fundamental rights" Due Process protection, and thus should not even enter the equation.

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Texas should be allowed to make the laws it wants.

As long as they aren't Unconstitutional and do not preempt Federal laws...yes. It's called the police power of the states.

Quote
So get this straight.  Laws discriminating generally against homosexual conduct in many states constitute evidence of the will of the American people and must be considered by the court when determining if something is legally discrimination.  But a marked lack of laws barring the very thing in question (only 4 states at the point had laws specifically barring homosexual sodomy) apparently only constitute evidence of the homosexual agenda at work, and need not be considered.

You're taking the assumption that this case hinged on discrimination, that is an Equal Protection claim; it did not. The only Justice who found an Equal Protection violation was O'Conner, and she was alone on this. The case was decided on a fundamental liberty claim. As such, discrimination does not enter and should not enter the picture.

What Scalia is doing by going into the history of anti-sodomy laws is an attempt to undermine the majority's contention that homosexual/sodomy acts are a fundamental liberty. Part of the test of a determining if something is a fundamental liberty is that it should be an act that has had some degree of protection or encouragement. By mentioning laws in many states that banned homosexual acts for decades, Scalia is making the point that homosexual has not been protected and in fact has been banned until recently. Such evidence, to Scalia, is enough to show that homosexual acts are not a fundamental liberty as defined by previous case law.

NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #152 on: March 26, 2009, 05:53:03 AM »
Quote
That's the important part, but read on if you want to hear me nitpick.

Actually, that part is just dicta within a dissent and can largely be disregarded since it has no legal ramifications. Its largely just Scalia pontificating on what he feels is the incorrect method by which the other Justices came to their majority opinion.

I want to determine whether Scalia is in fact homophobic, to see if Frank's comment was warranted.  I find it most useful precisely because it isn't part of his formal reasoning.  Scalia's just blowing off steam about how lousy he thinks the majority is in this case.  Offhand comments that need no justification can be particularly revealing.

Thinking on it, Scalia's dissent is mostly on the money.  He pegs the majority as trying to thread the needle so as to protect homosexuals without calling into question the validity of laws forbidding gay marriage by creating a vague level of scrutiny.

I think he's a bit intentionally dense about O'Connor's concurrence.  He claims she doesn't provide a basis for or define the level of scrutiny she uses, "a more searching form of rational basis review." It's clear, however, that she's saying the rational basis of morality in Bowers v. Hardwick (which upheld an anti-sodomy law that outlawed acts between different- as well as same-sex couples) can't be applied in this case, because the intent of the law is to harm a politically unpopular group.  Since she doesn't call for a more heightened form of scrutiny, it seems reasonable to assume she means a rational basis not based at all on disliking that group (as Bowers v. Hardwick partially is) must be applied.

If Scalia can be said to be homophobic, his dissent on Romer v. Evans (in which he argues that an amendment to a state constitution that specifically bars state institutions from offering homosexuals protection against discrimination is, somehow, not a law intended to cause harm to homosexuals) is probaly the reason.  Eh.  Maybe it's worth taking a close look at, but not tonight.

EDIT: Frank explains his rationale.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-barney-frank/why-i-called-justice-scal_b_179434.html
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 10:38:16 PM by NotMiki »
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NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #153 on: April 02, 2009, 02:39:22 AM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/education/02educ.html?hp

I like this new guy.  He's attacking one of the big structural weaknesses of NCLB, that states set their own standards to be judged by, right off the bat.

On a sadder note, Mark Sanford is the most shameful excuse for a governor this country has, and that's the most polite thing you'll ever hear me say about him.  He refuses some of the education money because he can't use it to pay down state debt, and he's afraid of inflation.  Inflation!  You may recall the school in that video a few pages back was from SC.  And not that I'm calling him a racist, but it's worth noting that his piss-poor excuse for an education system is disproportionately worse in the parts of the state that are predominantly African-American.

EDIT: probably not on many people's radar, but it deserves a mention:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/us/politics/02stevens.html?hp

Ted Stevens, former Alaska senator, will have charges against him withdrawn by the Justice dept, and those charges will not be reinstated.  Stevens had already been found guilty and was awaiting sentencing, but a pattern of serious prosecutorial misconduct (including but not limited to failure to disclose evidence that discredited a key witness) prompted Eric Holder to review the case and ultimately decide to drop the charges with prejudice, voiding the guilty verdict and preventing the case from being retried.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 06:45:25 AM by NotMiki »
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NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #154 on: April 05, 2009, 03:56:00 AM »
yar, triple post!  I don't know if this should be its own topic, but since people have been talking about the idea, Glenn Greenwald just released a report for the Cato Institute (a libertarian think tank) on the success of Portugal's drug decriminalization policy.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/02/portugal/index.html
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #155 on: April 05, 2009, 04:28:43 AM »
Stevens got off lucky, but that entire case was a fiasco. I guess no one wanted to drag it out with so much other political crap on the table?
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NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #156 on: April 05, 2009, 05:16:04 AM »
Stevens requested the case be sped up so it could be finished before the election, so it was self-made luck, in a sense.  Holder's willing to let it drop in part because Stevens no longer has his Senate seat, and in part because of his age.

Apparently Eric Holder knew the judge in the case from law school and highly respected his opinion.  That judge found the prosecution in contempt, including the head of the department handling the prosecution, and Holder took it very seriously.  Holder started his career with the justice department in the same office that was handling the prosecution, the Public Integrity Section, and he was apparently livid about their conduct.

There are two reasons the prosecution may have withheld what they did: willful corruption, or honest mistakes owing to the fact that the trial was sped up.  If Stevens hadn't requested his trial to be conducted so quickly, those mistakes might not have been made, and we could have had the opposite situation: Stevens keeps his seat but is found guilty (as I understand it, the case against him is still pretty good.  I mean, he was saying on the stand that his wife was the one who handled the botched finances, which is why he neglected to report the money.  The money for lifting his house up and building an entire new first floor under it.  Tell another one, buddy).

One cute detail from the trial: Stevens' personal checks use the name "Senator Ted Stevens," just so people know who they're dealing with.  What a piece of work.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 06:18:43 PM by NotMiki »
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metroid composite

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #157 on: April 07, 2009, 07:53:05 PM »
There's been a rash of same-sex marraige legalization recently.

Today: Vermont overthrows the governor's veto (by getting a 67% majority) and passes same sex marriage.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/07/same.sex.marriage/

Also today: DC votes to recognize marriages performed in other states (although you can't get married in DC itself):
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/07/dc-council-votes-recognize-gay-marriages-performed-states/

Last week, the Iowa supreme court ruled that equal protection meant that same-sex marriage must be legal.

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #158 on: April 07, 2009, 09:03:15 PM »
A unanimous decision, even.

Can't wait until I can go up to Californians and ask them why they're so insensitive to gays.

*sips latte, looks over toiling masses in ivory tower*
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #159 on: April 07, 2009, 09:23:10 PM »
I hate you
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #160 on: April 10, 2009, 09:00:37 PM »
The interesting things I overhear in San Francisco bars; bear in mind that my source from this is word of mouth (word of mouth from inside sources, but I can't claim flawless statistical sampling).  Given army policies, I doubt most of these statistics actually have formally published numbers rather than word of mouth estimates, though.

The number of gays in the American army is >= 20%; more than the national average.
The number of gays in special operative groups like the NAVY Seals is somewhere around 50%.
Roughly 70% of the Army has no issue with gays in the military, and thinks "don't ask, don't tell" is silly.

Also, random non-army tidbit: in some states, transgender individuals can't get married at all to either gender--the state classifies them as neither a man nor a woman, so they can't satisfy the "marriage is between a man and a woman" check.

Oh, may as well throw in an amusing not-really-political anecdote about a girl this woman was supervising in the military.  The girl was being a bit obvious with rainbow flag stickers on her car, so the woman pulls her aside and says "okay, I think I need to explain to you this 'don't ask, don't tell'--it's not just verbal communication, it could be other signals," and this lecture continued for several minutes with examples.  The conversation ends with
Supervisor: "okay, so do you fully understand 'don't ask don't tell' now?"
Girl: "I think so.  Oh, by the way, you know I'm a lesbian, right?"
Supervisor: *facepalm*

NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #161 on: April 10, 2009, 10:05:21 PM »
http://abcnews.go.com/PollingUnit/Politics/story?id=5387980

this is, as far as I know, the most recent poll on DADT.  A full 75% of respondents from the general public were in favor of allowing homosexuals to serve openly.  A majority of Republicans and conservatives(!) also favor open service.  I've also heard a majority in the armed services approve of open service, but the number I recall was in the mid 50s, not close to 70.

I find this really intersting: 75% approve of open service, and 78% approve of homosexuals being allowed to serve under any circumstance.  Since it makes sense that everyone who answered yes on the first would answer yes on the second, that leaves a paltry 3% who believe the current arrangement is the way to go (18% opposed letting homosexuals serve at all).
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #162 on: April 10, 2009, 10:10:56 PM »
Don't ask, don't tell was just buying time for society to get used to homosexuals in the military more than anything else. It did serve a good purpose, but it's time is quickly passing.

Quote
MC's numbers.

I would be utterly shocked if the homosexual popluation in the military was above the national average, let alone 50% for special forces.
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #163 on: April 10, 2009, 10:26:54 PM »
let alone 50% for special forces.
As it was described to me (at least the appeal of the Navy Seals) the appeal is...being isolated on a boat with a lot of really buff men.

Though again, this is not a good statistical sample taken through random sampling.  This is the anecdotal experience of some people in the gay community in the bay area.  It would not surprise me at all of the division of the Navy Seals located near San Francisco was...correspondingly gayer than other divisions.

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #164 on: April 10, 2009, 10:37:51 PM »
Don't ask, don't tell was just buying time for society to get used to homosexuals in the military more than anything else. It did serve a good purpose, but it's time is quickly passing.

I think the big difference between then and now, though I don't have numbers to back this, is that people, including conservatives, are accepting that homosexuality is, to use the legal term, immutable.  According to the Iowa Supreme Court:  

"[T]he court found sexual orientation to be central to personal identity and that its alteration, if at all, could only be accomplished at the expense of significant damage to the individual’s sense of self."

If conservatives accept that homosexuality isn't something you can change in people, it makes sense to welcome homosexuals into conservative institutions.  The alternative to homosexual servicemen is homosexual hippies.  The alternative to homosexual marriage is homosexuals living in (more) sin.

EDIT:

It would not surprise me at all of the division of the Navy Seals located near San Francisco was...correspondingly gayer than other divisions.

Naturellement.  Shore leave has a reputation for sailors looking for action.  San Francisco has a reputation as a homosexual hotbed (pun intended).
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 10:44:05 PM by NotMiki »
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #165 on: April 11, 2009, 03:10:40 PM »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/11/AR2009041100767.html?hpid=topnews

Front-page story for the Washington Post is...medicinal marijuana, which is apparently a lot further into the CA mainstream than I thought.  Fascinating.
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #166 on: April 13, 2009, 09:09:31 PM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/you-are-being-lied-to-abo_b_155147.html

"You are being lied to about pirates".

Good read; haven't checked any of the facts, but sounds plausible.

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #167 on: April 13, 2009, 10:47:14 PM »
That is news to people?  War Nerd had been going on about that stuff months ago pointing out exactly why they did it and why what they were doing was effective (and why they were going to get raped by the world anyway, but everyone knew that was going to happen anyway...)
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #168 on: April 14, 2009, 12:14:37 AM »
the News Hour tonight had a good segment on the current situation with pirates off of Somalia.  One thing that jumped out at me: the US has been very hesitant to use military force because there have been very few casualties amid the hostage-taking.
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #169 on: April 14, 2009, 01:15:59 AM »
http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/13/news/goldman.earnings.report.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2009041317

Goldman Sachs reports about double the earnings expected; has plans to be the first big bank to repay its government TARP loan.  Wells Fargo also posts dramatically higher earnings than expected.

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #170 on: April 14, 2009, 03:04:07 AM »
I don't know...Wells Fargo's earnings are in large part due to loosening of mark-to-market reporting that allows them to blur the toxic assets they acquired in Wachovia.

I'm not seeing that reflected really anywhere in the news, so maybe I'm off base, and maybe their profit is better than expected in spite of that, but I'd be cautious about trusting these numbers.

As for the loans, the treasury really doesn't want the money back yet.  They essentially forced some banks to take the cash even though they didn't really need it, so that the market wouldn't know who was or was not about to fail.  Still, Goldman Sachs was on the losing side of that equation, so it's as good sign, even if it's dubious.
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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #171 on: April 16, 2009, 01:10:30 AM »
http://abcnews.go.com/PollingUnit/Politics/story?id=5387980

this is, as far as I know, the most recent poll on DADT.  A full 75% of respondents from the general public were in favor of allowing homosexuals to serve openly.  A majority of Republicans and conservatives(!) also favor open service.  I've also heard a majority in the armed services approve of open service, but the number I recall was in the mid 50s, not close to 70.

I find this really intersting: 75% approve of open service, and 78% approve of homosexuals being allowed to serve under any circumstance.  Since it makes sense that everyone who answered yes on the first would answer yes on the second, that leaves a paltry 3% who believe the current arrangement is the way to go (18% opposed letting homosexuals serve at all).


I'm assuming that 18% is there because they are homophobic, super far right, etc.  Wouldn't they want gay people to serve in the military to A. Get them out of the country and B. Hopefully die?

Granted, I'm probably giving this group waaayy too much credit here, since I doubt they have the ability to use logic.

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #172 on: April 16, 2009, 01:31:57 AM »
Quote
I don't know...Wells Fargo's earnings are in large part due to loosening of mark-to-market reporting that allows them to blur the toxic assets they acquired in Wachovia.

I'm not seeing that reflected really anywhere in the news, so maybe I'm off base, and maybe their profit is better than expected in spite of that, but I'd be cautious about trusting these numbers.

As for the loans, the treasury really doesn't want the money back yet.  They essentially forced some banks to take the cash even though they didn't really need it, so that the market wouldn't know who was or was not about to fail.  Still, Goldman Sachs was on the losing side of that equation, so it's as good sign, even if it's dubious.

Maybe I have far less faith in humanity than you, but my immediate kneejerk response to that was "Bullshit. They are cooking the books like they did with the CDS mess."

In other news, did anyone go to a tea party!? I'm sure Zenny went just for the teabagging.

NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #173 on: April 16, 2009, 02:03:32 AM »
Granted, I'm probably giving this group waaayy too much credit here, since I doubt they have the ability to use logic.

If you want to see that "logic" at work, here's an op-ed from today's Washington Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/14/AR2009041402704.html

I think the reasoning employed in this is pretty damn bad (particularly involving the concept of professionalism, but also taking the poll numbers they present at face value, even if they're accurate, which seems dubious to me), but I'm too tired to pick it apart at present.
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metroid composite

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Re: Politics 09: Harry Reid still has no spine.
« Reply #174 on: April 16, 2009, 04:21:43 AM »
"Don't rock the boat when the system is under a lot of strain" = reasonable.
"Don't rock the boat ever" = no.

In all likelihood they're right on several points: people who like the military being a "gay free zone" are more likely to enlist, and people who believe strongly that gays should be integrated into the military are more likely to lock themselves into non-military career paths.  Ergo there probably will be a short-term loss.

On the other hand, you could say all the same things about black people in the military.  In fact you could probably copy and paste the same arguments "you need to be comfortable being in intimate quarters with that thing".  These aren't appropriate long-term argument.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 04:24:17 AM by metroid composite »