Author Topic: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.  (Read 75587 times)

SnowFire

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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #325 on: May 29, 2009, 12:12:40 AM »
To get back on point, there's some reassuring data here:

http://volokh.com/posts/1242229209.shtml - "Sotomayor appears average to below average."
http://volokh.com/posts/1243482653.shtml - "On second thought, she appeared average to below average her first two years, which isn't surprising.  She's much better from 2004-06 rather than 98-99."

This is based on other judges citing your decisions and the like, so a mechanical and "fair" standard if a sometimes misleading one.

In other legal news, I'm betting on the US in United States v. Vampire Nation.

NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #326 on: May 29, 2009, 01:50:39 AM »
http://washingtonindependent.com/44777/will-liberals-be-disappointed-in-sotomayor-part-ii

Sotomayor's new problem, other than Newt Gingrich and Karl Rove calling her a racist, which is too pathetically silly to bother with: not empathetic enough.

--

Also, intersting op-ed: nominally unrelated indicators of political ideology.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/28/opinion/28kristof.html?ref=opinion
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 02:24:26 AM by NotMiki »
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InfinityDragon

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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #327 on: May 29, 2009, 03:47:56 AM »
Quote
I don't have much to add on the italicized response.  If you want me to comment on them, I guess I'd say that the blunt method wasn't too well-received.  (Personally when I feel someone hasn't done enough research, I generally politely point them to some reading material).

Fair enough.

Quote
What I responded to the second time was your statement "mc: you don't have enough information to make such a claim, because you are lacking exact information", to which I responded "actually, I did have enough information to make such a claim, because mathematically I only require inexact information."

But I thought you said you were making the point that such variables cannot be used as proof of authority or qualification.....

Whatever, it doesn't really matter.

Quote
This is based on other judges citing your decisions and the like, so a mechanical and "fair" standard if a sometimes misleading one.

Looks like Easterbrook and Posner pretty well dominated that original study...no big surprise there. Not that the study is flawless, looking at citations and such is good for looking at breadth of work but not necessarily depth. It's also interesting to see how high Alito was on the list of "individuality."

Quote
Sotomayor's new problem, other than Newt Gingrich and Karl Rove calling her a racist, which is too pathetically silly to bother with: not empathetic enough.

Uh...yeah, that sort of accusation is pretty foolish. If a judge mechanically applies the law without empathy, and the result is an injustice, this is usually a good sign that the original law was poorly written and needs to be addressed by the legislature and has a decent chance of spurring a legislative change. See, e.g., the discrimination case Miki linked to quite awhile back--I forget the name offhand--or multiple state legislatures revising their laws to specifically deny Kelo style takings after Kelo was decided.

Ignoring the letter of the law to obtain a "fair" result means that the law is not being challenged in some form, which make it less likely that said poor law will be around antagonizing society as a whole.

EDIT:

Quote
Okay, first of all, I thought reading the opinions of courts reviewing her work was recognizing the importance of peer review.

Yeah, that was my fault. I was rushing through stuff last night and your comma threw me off; I skipped over everything after it in that one sentence. To answer your question, yes, judicial opinions of appellate cases are peer review. Not only over cases that they are directly ruling on, but they can comment on the rulings made in other jurisdictions as well.

That said, if you are considering the Supreme Courts opinions over her cases, then by default you must have some respect for the Supreme Court's authority over her. To this, I question again why is there a debate between us?



« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 04:22:56 AM by InfinityDragon »

Pyro

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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #328 on: May 29, 2009, 05:22:12 AM »

InfinityDragon

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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #329 on: May 29, 2009, 05:57:39 AM »
Quote
Factcheck full: http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/what_percentage_of_sonia_sotomayors_opinions_have.html

While true, this is misleading because it does not factor in any of her tenure as a district court judge; its looking at her appeals court experience only. It also doesn't look into whether or not the Court is affirming the decision while reversing the reasoning, a practice that is not at all uncommon and I know for sure the Court did this to one of Sotomayor's opinions (the Knight v. Commissioner tax case).

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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #330 on: May 29, 2009, 12:31:30 PM »
The Bar gives a rating on Supreme Court Justice nominees. Do you think that would that be an acceptable measure to go by as far as competence goes? Something I should look up later I guess.

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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #331 on: May 29, 2009, 01:01:48 PM »
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Sotomayor's new problem, other than Newt Gingrich and Karl Rove calling her a racist, which is too pathetically silly to bother with: not empathetic enough.

Uh...yeah, that sort of accusation is pretty foolish. If a judge mechanically applies the law without empathy, and the result is an injustice, this is usually a good sign that the original law was poorly written and needs to be addressed by the legislature and has a decent chance of spurring a legislative change. See, e.g., the discrimination case Miki linked to quite awhile back--I forget the name offhand--or multiple state legislatures revising their laws to specifically deny Kelo style takings after Kelo was decided.

Ignoring the letter of the law to obtain a "fair" result means that the law is not being challenged in some form, which make it less likely that said poor law will be around antagonizing society as a whole.

I linked this in part because of what one of the commenters said:

Quote
Having litigated employment discrimination cases in the 1990's, there seems to be nothing technical about this decision. In the early 1990's, trial judges in the Second Circuit were routinely throwing out claims that sounded weak to them, even though they technically should have survived a summary judgment motion. The appellate judges routinely reversed, on the technically-sound grounds that there were some material facts in dispute, and it was the jury's job to judge the strength of these facts.

The trial judges continued to ignore the appellate judges, because the docket demands on them were too great to allow trials. After a few years of this, the appellate judges finally showed empathy--for the trial judges. They began to allow trial judges to throw out claims just because they were weak. In other words, the appellate court STOPPED being hypertechnical. It's just that they saved their empathy for the trial judges, rather than the plaintiffs. Funny how it is easier to empathize with people just like you. A white male trial judge is much more like Sonia Sotomayor than is a black woman RN.

Now, Sotomayor wasn't an appellate judge until the late '90s, but if it's true the 2nd circuit appellate judges as a whole tightened their standards of evidence for no reason other than to reduce the load on trial judges, that's something worth looking into.
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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #332 on: June 05, 2009, 05:48:01 AM »
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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #333 on: June 05, 2009, 10:28:08 PM »
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZGMzOTBhMDk4OTczNjU0N2U3Y2E3NDk0OTJjOWY5NmE=

Rich Lowry's surprisingly positive review of Obama's speech yesterday.
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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #334 on: June 06, 2009, 01:38:18 AM »
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/06/05/friday_poll_in_israel_shows_majoritysolid_support/?ref=fpblg

Fascinating opinion poll of Israelis regarding their foreign policy and Obama's moves on that front.
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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #335 on: June 07, 2009, 04:04:18 AM »
Misleading headline.  From what I could tell, it's at best an even split and at worst disagreement.  Still, fairly fascinating.

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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #336 on: June 07, 2009, 07:38:43 AM »
What?  Are you suggesting that the reality would be misconstrued in the headlines so that people who don't read articles in detail and remember specifics of things will be deluded into thinking the situation is better off than the reality?  Why I never!
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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #337 on: June 07, 2009, 08:17:18 AM »
What I find interesting here is the conflict that is apparent in these answers.  They don't think Obama's plan is good for their country but they do think their PM should go along with it.  They believe Obama puts plans for a Palestinian state ahead of their safety (or as the question quaintly put it, the 'desires' of the Palestinians over the 'needs' of the Israelis), but agree that the main point, a settlement freeze, should be done.
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InfinityDragon

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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #338 on: June 08, 2009, 01:10:43 AM »
Quote
What I find interesting here is the conflict that is apparent in these answers.  They don't think Obama's plan is good for their country but they do think their PM should go along with it.  They believe Obama puts plans for a Palestinian state ahead of their safety (or as the question quaintly put it, the 'desires' of the Palestinians over the 'needs' of the Israelis), but agree that the main point, a settlement freeze, should be done.

It's just a mirror of Obama's administration so far: solid general popularity but lukewarm at best reception to his actual proposals.

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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #339 on: June 08, 2009, 01:28:21 AM »
It's just a mirror of Obama's administration so far: solid general popularity but lukewarm at best reception to his actual proposals.

Well, I don't disagree with the general statement here, but I think you're likely misreading this particular situation. What I think it actually reveals is that Israelis have, unsurprisingly, complex views about the situation, probably more so than the relatively black and white way the issue is talked about in the states. It's not necessarily a conflict to believe that the Obama administration is thinking more about Palestine's needs than Israel's, and that dismantling settlements is also a good idea, or to be for a two state solution but still disappointed in Obama's conduct or rhetoric.

Nor is it necessarily in conflict to believe that the path that is "good for Israel" (e.g. aggressive expansion, per the ruling coalition) is not necessarily the path that should be taken, i.e. that it is bad for Israel but good for Israel/Palestine to reach some sort of two-state solution. Particularly with some of the more extreme rhetoric in the air (see: Avigdor Lieberman), it wouldn't really surprise me if a lot of Israelis are taking positions that are actively "anti-Israel" by common discourse.

But who knows? Some of the poll questions (NotMiki noted "desires" vs. "security needs") seem pretty suspectly worded. And yeah, it definitely indicates some pretty severe disagreements regardless.

NotMiki

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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #340 on: June 08, 2009, 01:41:30 AM »
But who knows? Some of the poll questions (NotMiki noted "desires" vs. "security needs") seem pretty suspectly worded. And yeah, it definitely indicates some pretty severe disagreements regardless.

The pollsters are Israeli as well, which has its advantages and disadvantages.  As for the pro- or anti-Israeli positions, it's been true for a long time that Israelis are far more divided on what is good for their country than mainstream US politicians have been (you can thank AIPAC for that).

It's just a mirror of Obama's administration so far: solid general popularity but lukewarm at best reception to his actual proposals.

I think the results of this poll are not a reflection of Obama's personal popularity being at odds with the popularity of his ideas (though that is true in the US), because Israel was one of the very few regions that polling shows supported McCain over Obama in the election (eastern Europe was the other, I believe).  They were wary of him from the start.  Rather, I think their reactions are more a reflection that they believe they are, to a lesser or greater extent, beholden to the US.  They are, of course, but I didn't think they felt it as keenly as this poll seems to indicate.
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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #341 on: June 09, 2009, 11:58:27 PM »
Quote
I think the results of this poll are not a reflection of Obama's personal popularity being at odds with the popularity of his ideas (though that is true in the US), because Israel was one of the very few regions that polling shows supported McCain over Obama in the election (eastern Europe was the other, I believe).

It is a reflection in that a charismatic speaker can make a particular goal or idea sound good and lend it some support, but support for actual implementation dwindles when you narrow down to the specific requirements needed to reach that goal. Of course there are additional factors, as JustAnotherDay pointed out, but it is a reflection nonetheless.

Also, do note that Europe has a very favorable view of Obama as well, but doesn't actually endorse the details of any of his plans or ideologies--see the juxtaposition of Obama's "rockstar" status in Europre with the recent  European elections (e.g. Geert Wilder's very right of center party winning 17% of the vote) for proof of that. It's fair to say that Israel wouldn't be much different in that regard (albeit more wary, as you put it).

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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #342 on: June 10, 2009, 01:12:48 AM »
Also, do note that Europe has a very favorable view of Obama as well, but doesn't actually endorse the details of any of his plans or ideologies--see the juxtaposition of Obama's "rockstar" status in Europre with the recent  European elections (e.g. Geert Wilder's very right of center party winning 17% of the vote) for proof of that.
Nah.

The left was in power in Europe when the recession hit, so Europeans probably blamed the left and wanted to throw them out of office for screwing up.


There's past precedence for this too--the 80s early 90s was a time when several countries decided that borrowing craploads of money at high interest rates was a good idea.  In Canada this was the Conservative party, which lost power, almost ceased to exist as a party, and didn't reclaim the government until 2006.  In Australia this was the Labour party, and they didn't reclaim the government until 2007.

Welcome to international politics.  If things go wrong, you get thrown out of office; most people don't have that much ideological or party loyalty.  From the international perspective, it's mind-boggling that the Republican's weren't thrown out in 2004.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 01:14:45 AM by metroid composite »

InfinityDragon

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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #343 on: June 10, 2009, 02:17:26 AM »
Quote
Nah.
The left was in power in Europe when the recession hit, so Europeans probably blamed the left and wanted to throw them out of office for screwing up.

Why bother putting up a "nah" if you aren't going to contradict anything I said, unless you're baiting for an argument.

Yes the left was in power in Europe and they were blamed and lost. This doesn't change the facts that a) Obama is popular in Europe, b) Europeans gave more seats in their elections to right of center political parties, and c) these parties have ideologies that run counter to Obama's.

This could, and probably does, mean that Europeans don't really care about particular issues and focus more on results (that is, they are reactive rather than proactive, as you said). What it *does* mean is that at the moment, Europeans are not particularly interested in electing officials that have ideologies similar to Obama's to help give support to Obama on the international scene--in other words, they have not given Obama any political endorsement due to electing officials dissimilar to him. The "whys" of such an action are largely irrelevant, only that there is some other factor that Europeans consider more important than endorsement of Obama's ideas.

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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #344 on: June 10, 2009, 06:57:01 AM »
What it *does* mean is that at the moment, Europeans are not particularly interested in electing officials that have ideologies similar to Obama's to help give support to Obama on the international scene--in other words, they have not given Obama any political endorsement due to electing officials dissimilar to him.
I'm not sure that's true either, actually.

I can't speak of current European politics, but for example the entire Canadian political spectrum is to the left of the American political spectrum to the point that the closest Canadian party to the Democrats is the Canadian Conservative Party.  While more economically right-wing in certain areas, the Conservative party of Canada is also more socially left-wing than the Democrats in some areas.  For instance, the Conservative Party supports universal health care; the Democrats (or Obama at least) don't.  The Conservative party is for gay marriage these days; the Democrats aren't (officially; some of them probably think it should be legalized).  The Conservative party of Canada doesn't start international wars; the Democrat party of the USA does start international wars.

Though granted, I don't know much about European politics right now; I do know that from the perspective of a Canadian, Obama seems fairly right-wing, so it's possible Europeans see him that way too.

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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #345 on: June 10, 2009, 09:27:13 AM »
Europe is indeed a pretty fucked up country.

Oh wait.

Although yes there is a trend towards the Right at the moment in many parts of Europe and some oddly harder Right parties winning a bit more than is the norm, a bit over generalized there since the Right has always had a presence in Europe (especially Eastern Europe, sup Russia?) and even in the more Leftist countries the Right is still a force, they just weren't a majority previously.  All it takes is swing voters to be reactionary and the situation changes.

The whole Europe is Left thing is overplayed and not even remotely shocking when it falls through.  Sup France and the reactionary response to Immigration?
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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #346 on: June 10, 2009, 05:32:08 PM »
In other news, the Governator is awesome:

http://tech.yahoo.com/news/afp/20090609/tc_afp/useducationinternetcalifornia_20090609155456

Ditching textbooks in favor of digital distribution saving the state millions of dollars?  Yes please.

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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #347 on: June 10, 2009, 05:58:14 PM »
I'm a little surprised they're limiting this to math and science, although really the important thing is leaving lit the hell alone I suppose (in simplest terms, staring at a computer screen to read a supplimental chapter to a math course is okay, trying to read an entire book the same way not so much).  At any rate, this vastly improves the system's ability to stay on top of things (ie not use outdated text books) which is certainly a good thing.  I'm left to wonder what the backlash from the textbook industry will be though.
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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #348 on: June 10, 2009, 06:23:34 PM »
Mm.  Probably the best solution to Lit. books would be to use the ereader tools that have been popping up recently.  More costly in the short term, they would probably cut costs in the long term and are designed to be more comfortable on the eyes than a fully backlit screens.  The problem with this idea is mostly the fact that while the books for, say, the Kindle are cheaper than paperbacks, the hardware itself is so expensive that it's not a viable option for California as of now. 

Also:  "Europe is a pretty fucked up country"?  Best line of the entire fucking topic.

EDIT:  As for backlash from the textbook companies?  Whatever to them.  They've been making subpar, too-expensive teaching tools brought into the schools not on their own merit but by gaming the system with the review boards for the books for years now; even Uni textbook distributors are hardly more than scam artists in educators' clothing.  Read an interesting article on it a while back from a scientist (can't recall the name) who was disgusted by what he saw while on one of the review boards for math textbooks.  Really put some things in perspective.  I'll try to dig it up after I get off work.  In any case, the textbook industry has been fucking up for years and this change is a welcome regime overthrow.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 06:33:35 PM by Makkotah »

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Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #349 on: June 10, 2009, 08:08:20 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?no_interstitial

Mildly interesting bit about how the deficit came to be and the actual total impact of Obama's agenda on it right now.
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