Register

Author Topic: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.  (Read 74632 times)

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #375 on: June 26, 2009, 11:38:05 PM »
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/25/savana-redding-strip-sear_n_220717.html

Grr.  I'm happy about the decision of the court here, but Thomas' sole dissent really ticks me off.  Not because of the reasoning, but because of the language.

Quote
Thomas warned that the majority's decision could backfire. "Redding would not have been the first person to conceal pills in her undergarments," he said. "Nor will she be the last after today's decision, which announces the safest place to secrete contraband in school."

The girl didn't have pills on her person.  Nor was there any doubt because, you see, she was strip searched.  But if you read "nor will she be the last" you would, of course, believe she had.  Clarence Thomas is a fucking supreme court justice.  He knows how to write.  I don't know what his angle here is, but I do know he's attacking her intentionally.
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

Shale

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5800
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #376 on: June 27, 2009, 12:24:05 AM »
Well, technically, since she wasn't carrying any pills (fucking Advil, might I note), it's completely impossible for her to be the last person to conceal them anywhere.
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."
-Ponder Stibbons

[23:02] <Veryslightlymad> CK dreams about me starring in porno?
[23:02] <CmdrKing> Pretty sure.

Lady Door

  • Coming up with words is, like...
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1998
  • ... really hard.
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #377 on: June 27, 2009, 02:39:39 AM »
Did you read his entire opinion? It's fairly reasonable! I agree the exact choice of words in that sentence is off -- "nor will she be the last" means she was one of the former, which wasn't the case at all as they didn't find anything they were looking for -- but the rest of his argument makes sense. The way it fits into the rest, I am guessing it was just a slip. In as many pages as those opinions appear, I don't find it odd that he fell prey to an awkward turn of phrase and picked it up in the wrong tense.
<Demedais> Humans look like cars to me.
<AndrewRogue> That must be confusing in parking lots

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #378 on: June 27, 2009, 04:19:21 AM »
No, I haven't read it in full.  And I don't think his stance, that school officials need greater deference, is unreasonable, though I don't agree with it in this case.  It's just the language I object to.

I don't give supreme court justices the benefit of the doubt in their opinions.  They're the highest court in the land, and they are keenly aware of the minute implications of language.  If they're vague or contradictory, I have to assume it's on purpose.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 04:26:47 AM by NotMiki »
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8151
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #379 on: June 27, 2009, 04:30:42 AM »
The stance is plenty unreasonable. I find it boggling that the US permits strip searches of schoolchildren in anything but dire cases (prescription drugs don't quiiite meet my threshold of dire).

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #380 on: June 27, 2009, 04:39:34 AM »
But NEB, they are YOUTHS. 
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #381 on: June 27, 2009, 05:13:23 AM »
The stance is plenty unreasonable. I find it boggling that the US permits strip searches of schoolchildren in anything but dire cases (prescription drugs don't quiiite meet my threshold of dire).

The idea is, you have to give school officials broad deference so that they'll be willing to conduct strip-searches and whatnot when it's important for them to do so.  if you open them up to liability, then they may act too timidly when a student's welfare is at risk for fear of being sued.  Say they suspect a student has heroin on their person and is dealing, because another student said so.  If they're wrong, even if they had a decent reason to believe there was heroin, they'll have to defend themselves in court, in front of a jury that may or may not be sympathetic depending on the kid.  That's a terrible position for a teacher to be in.

Now, I don't think the majority's decision in this case is going to lead to that situation, but I can see why Thomas is worried about it.
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

Just Another Day

  • Just Another Dollar
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 191
    • View Profile
    • (BL)
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #382 on: June 27, 2009, 05:41:52 AM »
The idea is, you have to give school officials broad deference so that they'll be willing to conduct strip-searches and whatnot when it's important for them to do so.  if you open them up to liability, then they may act too timidly when a student's welfare is at risk for fear of being sued.  Say they suspect a student has heroin on their person and is dealing, because another student said so.  If they're wrong, even if they had a decent reason to believe there was heroin, they'll have to defend themselves in court, in front of a jury that may or may not be sympathetic depending on the kid.  That's a terrible position for a teacher to be in.

I don't really buy it, to be honest. It might be a Canadian thing that I share with NEB (I cannot imagine a Canadian employer other than the police or military ever doing employee drug tests, for instance, though I'm told they're pretty common in the states), but I have trouble with drug hysteria. They can be dangerous, but they're not an IMMEDIATE THREAT! THAT MUST BE DEALT WITH!! and to hell with checks and balances and common sense.

Clear reason to believe that a student might be carrying a weapon? Widespread violence? Search 'em, put in metal detectors (terrible though that is), do what you can to protect students. Luckily enough, most weapons can't really be concealed in a 13-year-old's underwear.

But drugs? I don't see why a school administrator should have more or broader authority than a police officer with these things. If an administrator suspects that a student is dealing heroin, he or she should call the police. If there is a case, warrants should be issued, homes searched, whatever. But there're very good reasons why law enforcement can't perform discretionary body searches, and they apply every bit as much to teachers. And we can see manifest demonstration of at least one or two of them in this case.

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #383 on: June 27, 2009, 07:49:36 AM »
You...don't think a teen distributing heroin is an immediate threat to their safety or the safety of other students?  I guess we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

Just Another Day

  • Just Another Dollar
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 191
    • View Profile
    • (BL)
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #384 on: June 27, 2009, 08:12:36 AM »
I don't think a teen (suspected of) distributing heroin is so urgent a threat that basic rules of process need to be overturned to combat it. Our legal system (both American and Canadian) is in fact rather good at apprehending and incarcerating small-time drug offenders.

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4375
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #385 on: June 27, 2009, 08:11:02 PM »
You...don't think a teen distributing heroin is an immediate threat to their safety or the safety of other students?

So tell the student to get her ass in the principal's office, and then interrogate her while you wait for the police to arrive.

I'm sorry, but I feel the sentence "take off your underwear in front of me" is not something teachers should EVER say to a student.  That's not their job.  That's extremely inappropriate for their job.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8151
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #386 on: June 27, 2009, 10:28:18 PM »
Yeah, I pretty much agree with JAD and mc on this one. Find the opposite view a bit baffling; as a teacher, I can't ever recall hearing one of my colleagues endorse the idea of strip searching students for drugs (and I've heard some rather radical suggestions for managing troublesome students). It's rather revolting. That's the domain of law enforcement, not individuals for whom "care for all students" is the top entry in their code of ethics.

I'm kinda curious, is this an American/Canadian thing? How do other people feel on this topic?

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Shale

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5800
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #387 on: June 27, 2009, 10:40:11 PM »
I'm with the Canadians on this one. If you think a kid has something like heroin or a gun, you call the police and the jurisprudence for police conduct takes over. If what you suspect they have isn't bad enough to be illegal, it's probably not bad enough to justify a strip search.
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."
-Ponder Stibbons

[23:02] <Veryslightlymad> CK dreams about me starring in porno?
[23:02] <CmdrKing> Pretty sure.

Taishyr

  • Guest
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #388 on: June 27, 2009, 11:16:46 PM »
Pretty much echoing Shale, with my sentiments being that the divide between students and authority in schools is bad enough as is from my own experiences. I can't imagine strip searches aiding that at all.

Dhyerwolf

  • Mod Board Access
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4736
  • Here it comes, the story, of mankind's final glory
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #389 on: June 27, 2009, 11:54:15 PM »
I definitely don't think guns and drugs should be grouped in the same category here at all. They shouldn't strip search for drugs, but if a teacher really thought a student had a gun, then I would think removing it ASAP would be the ideal (Unless you want to send them to the principal's office holding their hands the whole way?).
...into the nightfall.

Cotigo

  • Jerkface
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4176
  • Yoo-hoo, Mr. Tentacle Guy...
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #390 on: June 28, 2009, 12:03:23 AM »
Yeah, I pretty much agree with JAD and mc on this one. Find the opposite view a bit baffling; as a teacher, I can't ever recall hearing one of my colleagues endorse the idea of strip searching students for drugs (and I've heard some rather radical suggestions for managing troublesome students). It's rather revolting. That's the domain of law enforcement, not individuals for whom "care for all students" is the top entry in their code of ethics.

I'm kinda curious, is this an American/Canadian thing? How do other people feel on this topic?

I'm in complete agreement with the Canucks on this one; if a teacher thinks a student has a gun, then they should call the god damn police.  It is not their within their jurisdiction to perform a strip search; I think the school authorities are allowed to search bags, but as far as I know they are not allowed to search anything on the student's person.  Doing so for drugs is absolutely unthinkable, even for dangerous drugs like meth or, in this case, heroin.  That's why you call the cops.  Hell, if a school official found anything during the strip search, they would have to call the police about it anyway, so there is no reason to perform the search. 

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #391 on: June 28, 2009, 02:13:14 AM »
It is not their within their jurisdiction to perform a strip search; I think the school authorities are allowed to search bags, but as far as I know they are not allowed to search anything on the student's person.  Doing so for drugs is absolutely unthinkable, even for dangerous drugs like meth or, in this case, heroin.

Couple of things.  First of all, met, it was the school nurse who did the strip search (which never involved the student taking off her bra and panties, by the way).  Second of all, in the US it is absolutely the school's 'jurisdiction' to search students if they have a legitimate reason to believe they have dangerous materials.  In the US, the constitutional rights of students are interpreted less broadly than they are in general.  Can you imagine if a teacher says, "let me have that note you were passing" and gets sued for impinging the student's right to free speech?

On a more practical note, if you're a student, would you rather explain that knife to your principal or to the cops?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 02:26:55 AM by NotMiki »
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #392 on: June 28, 2009, 04:15:36 AM »
I am with the Canadians on this one as well.  If the kid is only carrying and not using then the immediate threat is not high enough that holding them won't contain, if they are using something really nasty that makes them a threat then you should have already called the cops.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Excal

  • Chibi Terror That Flaps in the Night
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2603
  • Let's Get Adorable
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #393 on: June 28, 2009, 04:33:28 AM »
Sure, some rights aren't given fully to minors for a reason.  But to try and draw a parallell between confiscating notes and conducting strip searches are two entirely different things as well.  One of which is proscribed by school rules, but is not against the law, while the other is against the law, and therefore whether or not it is also against school rules is entirely superfluous.

As for whether the student would prefer to talk to the cops or the principal, you can give them that choice by simply stating that you have the evidence you need, and are about to call the cops in.  Who they'd prefer to talk to is now their choice from the moment you tell them this, to the moment you pick up the phone.

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4375
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #394 on: June 28, 2009, 05:53:19 AM »
In the US, the constitutional rights of students are interpreted less broadly than they are in general.  Can you imagine if a teacher says, "let me have that note you were passing" and gets sued for impinging the student's right to free speech?
I wasn't even really talking about legal rights here.  I was talking about the role of the teacher.

The teacher needs to be someone the student can trust and be comfortable around.  The teacher should not be antagonizing the students.  The teacher should be someone with whom a kid from an abusive home feels like she can share "my dad touches me, it makes me upset."  The teacher should not be someone the student perceives (wrongly or rightly) as a sexual predator which they would feel uncomfortable being around for 8 hours a day.

Do students have fewer legal rights?  Sure.  However there are certain boundaries that teachers should not cross.  Boundaries which the general public can cross just fine.  (For instance, saying "I'm imagining having sex with you right now"--and notice that this phrase would be totally unacceptable for a university lecturer too, so it's not just the pedophilia implications).

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #395 on: June 28, 2009, 07:46:38 AM »
As I pointed out earlier, even in this most egregious case that came before the supreme court, it wasn't a teacher who conducted the search; it was the school nurse.  I don't think it was right for reasons I've already gone through, but if there's one person in the school you want to be making students strip, the nurse is it.  I don't think it would be appropriate for teachers to be doing much at all in even more extreme examples, but I do think it's appropriate for the school administrators to.

In pointing out the special role teachers play and the boundaries they have to deal with, it's worth pointing out that you're mentally placing them in the governmental side of the constitution: the side that amendments are written to constrict the behaviors of.  For those of you drawing a bright line between what the police should be doing and what school officials should, it's worth considering that they're both playing for the same team, as it were.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 07:54:21 AM by NotMiki »
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

Shale

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5800
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #396 on: June 28, 2009, 08:09:01 AM »
Yeah, but school staff provide a very different service from the police. I wouldn't want the DMV strip-searching anyone either.
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."
-Ponder Stibbons

[23:02] <Veryslightlymad> CK dreams about me starring in porno?
[23:02] <CmdrKing> Pretty sure.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8151
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #397 on: June 28, 2009, 08:52:16 AM »
Yeah, see everything mc said about the role of the teacher as somebody students can trust? That goes for the school nurse as well. Actually, it goes for all doctors and nurses, who have a rather similar ethical dedication to their patients as educators do students. This more than anything is why I found the case disgusting. (Also, for the record, the strip search DID go beyond the undergarments; the article specifically says they were moved in order to make the areas underneath visible.)

I'm actually not clear on what ethical standards the police have to adhere to on either side of the border, but I can imagine they are very different than those in education and health. I somehow doubt that whatever code they have begins with "Police officers value and care for all people their job calls them to deal with, and act in their best interests", for starters.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 08:54:40 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #398 on: June 30, 2009, 12:57:42 AM »
Lots of fun stuff recently.  First, an observation by Krugman that I think is mostly on the money, though it lacks a little nuance:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/sex-and-the-married-politician/

This has been going on about a week, but it could use some attention: Sarkozy says the burqa is not welcome in France, creates a commission with the intent of banning the garment.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/23/french-burqa-ban-commissi_n_219579.html

And last but certainly not least, the supreme court finds 5-4 for the white firefighters, in a case the majority and minority are sharply divided on (and come to very different conclusions of even the basic facts of the case).

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/30/us/30scotus.html?_r=1&hp
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

Shale

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5800
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #399 on: June 30, 2009, 09:59:45 PM »
Senator Al fucking Franken.

Well, it makes the Vikings look better by comparison.
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."
-Ponder Stibbons

[23:02] <Veryslightlymad> CK dreams about me starring in porno?
[23:02] <CmdrKing> Pretty sure.