Author Topic: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.  (Read 74492 times)

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #675 on: November 13, 2009, 03:52:56 AM »
What the Catholic church is saying, in essence, is that charity is not something done for the benefit of the disadvantaged, but is simply done for the sake of business.  Of course, we don't call that charity, we call that enlightened self-interest.  For an religion which outwardly holds up charity as a virtue, an important virtue necessary for salvation no less, I call it something else: reprehensible.

It's remarkable to me.  They think their charitable acts are worth something to the city, but their actions indicate that they believe those charities have essentially no religious value.

Tai: People are angry about this move.  They recognize the problem here.  People are outraged.  That's good!  If they weren't, there would be real trouble.  No, there's plenty of hope for the species.  Less hope for the Catholic church, if it pursues this path.

CK: Religious people, by and large, donate generously and donate with the best of intentions.  Christian churches encourage charity, for the most part also with the best of intentions.  I have a big problem with what a lot of people believe in the name of religion, but Christians tend to get the charity thing right, so I give them credit where credit is due.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2009, 04:08:57 AM by NotMiki »
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

Cmdr_King

  • Strong and Full of Love
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5581
  • Is Gay
    • View Profile
    • CK Blog
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #676 on: November 13, 2009, 04:44:35 AM »
My experience is that the best Christians (ie the people who best exemplify christian values) are the ones that don't trumpet their religion far and wide.  In fact it's basically an inverse relationship.
CK: She is the female you
Snow: Speaking of Sluts!

<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

Taishyr

  • Guest
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #677 on: November 13, 2009, 04:50:10 AM »
Notmiki: And yet voices such as those will continue to linger in positions of power and act as a ball and chain around our necks. I see little hope for humanity, as a result. But this isn't xorntoro's rant corner, nor a philosophy discussion. So eh.

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #678 on: November 13, 2009, 05:15:57 AM »
Notmiki: And yet voices such as those will continue to linger in positions of power and act as a ball and chain around our necks.

They're probably in it for the long haul, but look at the people who were quoted in the article:

council member Mary M. Cheh (D-Ward 3) referred to the church as "somewhat childish."

council member, David A. Catania (I-At Large), said he would rather end the city's relationship with the church than give in to its demands.

Phil Mendelson (D-At Large), chairman of the judiciary committee, said the council "will not legislate based on threats."

Those three people are part of the group who will make the decision in the end.  Politics is not just a game for the large of ego.  Politicians have issues about which they care passionately.  That tends to be buried by the need to compromise to accomplish anything (politicians tent to refuse to allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good).  But they act because they care, not because they have cynically decided that gay marriage is a political winner (it isn't).  They're sticking their necks out a bit on this one.  You may say you have no faith in humanity because the big bad church is trying to throw its weight around, but sometimes the big guys do good too (see: Gates, Bill).

Let me reemphasize, because it bothers me so much, how reprehensible for an organization which prides itself on charity to refuse to help people because it may become slightly less convenient for them.  This is about the diametric opposite of hating the sin but loving the sinner.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2009, 05:19:34 AM by NotMiki »
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4375
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #679 on: November 13, 2009, 06:02:20 AM »
Seems absurd to me that they'd stop helping everyone in the city.  I mean, if you want to deny services to homeless LGBT youth, that makes you...like 80% of the homeless youth shelters.  Still immoral, but at least it's par for the course.  But denying services to an entire city?  REALLY?  What about all those other places that Catholic churches operate where gay marriage is legal?

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #680 on: November 13, 2009, 07:47:16 AM »
They're probably worried about two things: first, the prospect of having to acknowledge same-sex spouses by having to hand out benefits to same-sex spouses of employees who work for their charities (a position I doubt will earn them much sympathy).  Second, the prospect of being forced to allow same-sex couples to adopt through their adoption agencies.  In Massachusetts, the Catholic church decided to close their adoption agencies rather than comply.  Looks like DC's archdiocese is headed for a similar scorched-earth approach.  Unlike Massachusetts, however, where they were the biggest provider, the Catholic church doesn't handle much adoption work in DC.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/03/11/catholic_charities_stuns_state_ends_adoptions/
« Last Edit: November 13, 2009, 07:49:25 AM by NotMiki »
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

Excal

  • Chibi Terror That Flaps in the Night
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2603
  • Let's Get Adorable
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #681 on: November 13, 2009, 08:03:19 AM »
There was also the failure of the amendment to decide who you can choose to do business with.  ie. They don't have any option to say "I don't want to support that cause, so I won't take your money and won't rent you this space."

That said, I'm honestly for the split.  It'll mean the city will cope, and both sides can go on to provide services in their own way.  And it's a good thing because both the Church and the State have different things they need to help people with.

Hunter Sopko

  • Heavily in Debt
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4556
  • Hai, Kazuma-desu
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #682 on: November 13, 2009, 08:17:09 AM »
The difference between a normal business doing that and the church and certain others doing so is, I would imagine, their tax exempt status and/or recieving funds from the government. It's common for some businesses to have certain standards with whom they do business with, ranging from simple rules like "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service" to complicated and unpopular ones like "No Gays in Scouts".

Tax laws create a weird symboitic relationship between church and state thats not supposed to be there sometimes.

Of course, I may be incredibly off course here and feel free to completely shoot me down on this if I'm wrong.

Excal

  • Chibi Terror That Flaps in the Night
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2603
  • Let's Get Adorable
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #683 on: November 13, 2009, 08:19:58 AM »
Which is why I state that it's a good thing that there's less State/Church merging as a result of this.

Though, I do admit that I'm slightly biased because we've had some private businesses get in fairly deep troubles over that particular issue.

Cotigo

  • Jerkface
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4176
  • Yoo-hoo, Mr. Tentacle Guy...
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #684 on: November 13, 2009, 05:08:04 PM »
Totally related but also a tangent... Man, all this bitching about "NO GOVERNMENT DON'T MAKE ME DO THAT/PAY TAXES FOR IT I HATE IT" from all these right wing and/or religious groups about abortion and gay marriage... can I start doing that about the two overseas wars or the enforcement of marijuana laws?

Wait.  That's unpatriotic.

AAA

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1348
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #685 on: November 13, 2009, 09:17:50 PM »
You can't because that's all Obama's fault now, the last 8 years never happened.
Don't think of it as a novel. Think of it as a chance to retroactively win every argument you have ever walked away from.

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #686 on: November 14, 2009, 03:58:36 AM »
The difference between a normal business doing that and the church and certain others doing so is, I would imagine, their tax exempt status and/or recieving funds from the government. It's common for some businesses to have certain standards with whom they do business with, ranging from simple rules like "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service" to complicated and unpopular ones like "No Gays in Scouts".

Tax laws create a weird symboitic relationship between church and state thats not supposed to be there sometimes.

Of course, I may be incredibly off course here and feel free to completely shoot me down on this if I'm wrong.

Yeah, the situation is kinda the opposite of this.  No one can discriminate customers on the basis of a class protected by a non-discrimination policy except for religious institutions which get a separation-of-church-and-state exemption.  So a church could refuse to perform a gay marriage on religious grounds but a Catholic small business owner couldn't refuse a gay customer.  This religious exemption would not be changed by the DC law, I believe.  However, charities which take money from the government wouldn't get the same exemption religious institutions do, even if they're owned and operated by religious institutions.

That's the general picture as I understand it, but I'm not sure of the specifics (for example, charities which take government money can still discriminate in hiring but not in paying benefits, apparently?).  Bush and his justice department were vehemently opposed to the idea that religious charities couldn't discriminate like religions could and tried their best to bolster their ability to discriminate (primarily on the basis of religion), and as far as I know Obama hasn't reversed Bush's moves in that direction.

As for the "No gay in the scouts" thing, that's a question of membership to an organization, which makes it a different dynamic that the business-customer or charity-employee one, and Rehnquist ruled in 2000 that organizations can discriminate on such bases all they want regardless of state anti-discrimination laws, because of the freedom of association requirement in the first amendment demands it.  Based on that case, a lower court has found that the BSA can discriminate to some degree against homosexuals in its hiring practices, but only for positions that are leadership, role-model ones.

I prefer this case to those two: Philadelphia to BSA: "Gays or GTFO"
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 04:23:32 AM by NotMiki »
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #687 on: November 15, 2009, 06:20:03 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/opinion/15blumenauer.html?_r=1&ref=opinion

The Democratic representative who wrote the language for the end-of-life counseling unpacks the death panel thing from start to finish.  Nice, straightforward history of a ludicrous lie.

http://factcheck.org/2009/10/malpractice-savings-reconsidered/

CBO says hard caps on monetary awards for malpractice liability are not likely to save much money.  No comment on the soaring cost of liability insurance for doctors, which super tells me is a large concern, though.
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

Dhyerwolf

  • Mod Board Access
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4736
  • Here it comes, the story, of mankind's final glory
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #688 on: November 15, 2009, 11:01:17 PM »
Liability insurance costs would also be better controlled if uh...there were fewer flagrantly wrong lawsuits. Is there some kind of specific proposal for what the cap would be and I missed it in the article?
...into the nightfall.

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #689 on: November 16, 2009, 12:43:22 AM »
Wikipedia cites a study which came up with these results from a study of medical malpractice suits which were settled:

97% of suits were associated with an injury.  73% of them got compensation.
3% of suits were not involved with an injury.  16% of them got compensation.
63% were associated with errors.  73% of them got compensation (average: $521,560).
28% were not associated with errors.  28% of them got compensation (average $313,205).
Claims not associated with errors accounted for 13 to 16% of the total costs.

So fewer people with legitimate complaints are recovering than should be, and more without legitimate complaints are, but the large majority of the money goes to parties who were actually injured by an error.

The big downside: about half the money that got paid out went to courts, experts, and lawyers.

Also, here's the CBO report from the article:

Quote
CBO: Typical proposals have included:

    * A cap of $250,000 on awards for noneconomic damages;
    * A cap on awards for punitive damages of $500,000 or two times the award for economic damages, whichever is greater;
    * Modification of the “collateral source” rule to allow evidence of income from such sources as health and life insurance, workers’ compensation, and automobile insurance to be introduced at trials or to require that such income be subtracted from awards decided by juries;
    * A statute of limitations—one year for adults and three years for children—from the date of discovery of an injury; and
    * Replacement of joint-and-several liability with a fair-share rule, under which a defendant in a lawsuit would be liable only for the percentage of the final award that was equal to his or her share of responsibility for the injury.

The noneconomic damages cap is contentious because it creates a situation where doctors don't have the monetary incentive to extend anywhere near the same level of care toward poor people or homemakers as they would with someone expected to make a lot of money during their lifetime.  Economic damages, basically recovery for one's lost ability to make money, aren't capped, so if you accidentally amputate both arms of a tennis star, you pay a lot for that, but both arms of a housewife?  eh.

The "monetary incentive" is, by the way, a standard way of looking at lawsuits for injury: other than punitive damages, the money you pay out isn't a punishment for doing something wrong but rather a cost of doing business.  This makes a lot of sense: if your industry is something that is inherently unsafe, you can still proceed with your activities, but you factor in the cost of paying damages to the people your industry injures.  This lets industries that, for example, dump harmful chemicals continue to operate, but also provides recovery for their inadvertent victims.  It's more troublesome in the medical profession, because mistakes are so common, and because they deal directly with people's bodies.

As for punitive damages, they are applied only in the most egregious cases (and certainly should be reserved for such cases), and US judicial tradition is strongly predisposed to not allowing punitive damages be more than 4 times compensatory damages, though it can happen (judges have the ability to reduce or throw out punitive awards from juries that they think are too high, and they're not bashful about doing so).  My opinion is that if punitive damages are limited only to the worst of the worst (and for the most part they are) they're fine as-is.  Even the ultraconservative supreme court of South Carolina just found that, in the worst cases, it's ok to award disproportionate punitive damages.

Joint and several liability: the idea of this is that if more than one party is found liable for an injury, the injured party can collect their damages from ANY of the liable parties (so of course they always collect from the one with the deepest pockets) and the liable parties that pay out are left to try and get their fair share of the money from the parties that didn't.  Basically, this means that if a rich guy and a poor guy hurt you and are both 50% responsible, you collect 100% from the rich guy and he's left to try and squeeze whatever money he can from the poor guy.  Unfortunately for rich guys everywhere, the same holds true if the rich guy is only 1% liable.

Joint and several liability is used for three things in American law (it's much more common on the other side of the pond).  First is when parties act concertedly.  For example, if three guys beat you up and break your arm, they're jointly and severally liable.  No need for you to worry about which one broke it; they can settle that amongst themselves.  Second is when it's impossible to tell how much damage each party is responsible for, like when a person has been sickened by water tainted with a chemical that more than one company has been pouring in the river.  Third, and this is the big one: employers are jointly and severally liable for what their employees do in the course of their employment.  So if a UPS truck hits you while it's making rounds, you collect from UPS, even if it's the driver's fault (and UPS colects what they can from their driver).  The second and third kinds of joint and several liability are big in the medical industry.  The second because it's pretty much impossible for an injured person to know exactly who left that sponge in them while they were unconscious, and the third for obvious reasons.  My opinion: the best reform of joint and several liability is to limit it to being applied only to defendants who were significantly responsible, say 20% and up, except for employer-employee situations, which should have no such limit.

EDIT: yay posting on the DL while reviewing for torts class.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 12:55:57 AM by NotMiki »
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

Dhyerwolf

  • Mod Board Access
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4736
  • Here it comes, the story, of mankind's final glory
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #690 on: November 16, 2009, 01:18:35 AM »
Settled meaning resolved outside of court? Because there are a few things that could make those numbers look worse. Maybe I'm just slightly skeptical after seeing more than a few flagrant lawsuits brought against people I know. This isn't just in the medical field really, but yeah, some of them ended with the suers getting a token settlement just to go away. Kind of like how I know that unions are a good thing, but the one I dealt with can go fuck themselves, I suppose.

Does economic costs factor in the additional costs that the person will then incur in order to get around any injuries caused by malpractice, or solely on lost income?
...into the nightfall.

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #691 on: November 16, 2009, 04:47:38 AM »
Settled meaning resolved outside of court? Because there are a few things that could make those numbers look worse. Maybe I'm just slightly skeptical after seeing more than a few flagrant lawsuits brought against people I know. This isn't just in the medical field really, but yeah, some of them ended with the suers getting a token settlement just to go away. Kind of like how I know that unions are a good thing, but the one I dealt with can go fuck themselves, I suppose.

Does economic costs factor in the additional costs that the person will then incur in order to get around any injuries caused by malpractice, or solely on lost income?

Settled meaning resolved outside of court.  The vast, vast majority of cases (95% or so) are either settled without going to trial or summarily decided by a judge.  I've seen a couple ridiculous lawsuits in my day as well.  They exist, and they're problematic, but the real stinkers don't tend to go anywhere.

Economic costs is lost income and medical bills that need paying.  My understanding is imprecise, but the traditional way of looking at it was "how much money were they going to make in their lifetime that they will now not be able to, plus extra expenses they will now incur which they wouldn't have."  A more modern approach would include things like the monetary value of homemaking.  I'm really not sure what the exact standards are (and they vary state to state anyway), except to say that courts have statistical tables of average salaries based on a variety of factors that they suggest to juries (so, for example, a college student in a particular field could get compensation based on what they likely would have made).

Non-economic is the value of the injury (including the ever-controversial pain and suffering).  So if you go blind, economic is the money you can't make at work as a result plus the money you have to pay for prosthetics and medical costs associated with them, but it doesn't cover anything for the intrinsic loss of no longer being able to see.  That's non-economic (there are standard tables for non-economic damages depending on the injury which are suggested to the jury by the court, but the jury, although it usually follows them, is not bound by them; if a presiding judge thinks the jury's damage award is far too high, the judge has broad latitude to reduce it).
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 01:14:46 AM by NotMiki »
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

superaielman

  • "Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar/The fear of death holds not my heart!"
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 9631
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #692 on: November 18, 2009, 07:18:00 PM »
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/11/18/obama-wont-read-palins-book/

Obama also suggested he views the former Alaska governor as a credible candidate should she decide to seek the presidency in a couple of years.

"You know, she obviously has a big constituency in the Republican Party," he said. "You know, there a lot of people who are excited by her."


Mmm yes I wonder why the sitting president would want to run against Sarah Palin.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
-------------------
<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Taishyr

  • Guest
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #693 on: November 18, 2009, 07:18:54 PM »
He has a sense of cruel humor?

Dunefar

  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1222
  • Wuffy-wuff-wuff!
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #694 on: November 18, 2009, 07:21:23 PM »
He can put out the minimum effort and still get re-elected in a landslide against Palin?
* Infinite_Ko_Loop is now known as Ko-CidisnotaPrincess
<Nephrite> That is depressing.
<CmdrKing> I know.  Cid would makea  great princess.

Taishyr

  • Guest
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #695 on: November 18, 2009, 07:32:25 PM »
You never know, she might... uh... uh. Uh. Yeah, I got nothing. While I'm pessimistic about the results of 2012 in general, I'm not thinking Palin can manage no matter how it twists.

Cmdr_King

  • Strong and Full of Love
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5581
  • Is Gay
    • View Profile
    • CK Blog
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #696 on: November 18, 2009, 08:24:27 PM »
Personally I see it as a snarky commentary on how badly the majority of the Republican base fails right now.  I may be biased.
CK: She is the female you
Snow: Speaking of Sluts!

<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

NotMiki

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4476
  • Social Justice McNinja
    • View Profile
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 10:06:47 PM by NotMiki »
Rocky: you do know what an A-bomb is, right?
Bullwinkle: A-bomb is what some people call our show!
Rocky: I don't think that's very funny...
Bullwinkle: Neither do they, apparently!

Cotigo

  • Jerkface
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4176
  • Yoo-hoo, Mr. Tentacle Guy...
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #698 on: November 19, 2009, 01:10:37 AM »
What?  Why the hell don't more democrats want her to run?  She's just so good for the party--distracts everyone from how inept they are.

EDIT:  Does that last scene in that clip count as... DEPOSITORY RAPE?!

A, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!  ...

...

I thought it was funny.  JERKS.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 01:15:23 AM by Makkotah »

metroid composite

  • m_ACac
  • Administrator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4375
    • View Profile
Re: Politics 09: Fire Reid and Steele.
« Reply #699 on: November 19, 2009, 09:06:30 AM »
Creatonists hand out Darwin's Origin of Species...with a 50 page foreward:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM0oBuhTLRI

Full text available here:

http://assets.livingwaters.com/pdf/OriginofSpecies.pdf


It's an interesting situation and I'm not sure what to make of it.  Technically they're not doing anything wrong and I do feel it would be the wrong thing to do to censor them.

Well...no, let me rephrase that: I've heard rumors that it's not an exact reprinting, and if not that could be misinformation (putting "origin of species" on a book that kinda isn't).  Comparing to the text available online it looks like the old preface is gone (not surprising I guess) and the Glossary is gone.  I haven't noticed major differences in the main body of the text so far.  Only difference I noticed on a quick scan is that paragraphs are added in places, perhaps to emphasize certain sentences.  The two I spotted that got a whole new paragraph where there wasn't before:

"No case is on record of a variable being ceasing to be variable under cultivation."

"Ask, as I have asked, a celebrated raiser of Hereford cattle, whether his cattle might not have descended from long-horns, and he will laugh you to scorn."

So eh...speaking purely technically, it seems fine.  I still can't help but twitch a little at the situation, though.